In this episode, fractional AI officer Alejo Pijuan breaks down how lawyers can use AI to close more qualified leads, slash unbillable busywork, and finally see real ROI from their tech investments.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Alejo Pijuan discuss:
- Shiny penny syndrome and narrowing business focus
- AI as support, not replacement, for legal work
- Lead response speed and intake breakdowns
- Tracking data to improve lead quality and conversions
- Using AI tools and voice agents to reduce unbillable time
Key Takeaways:
- AI is most powerful in law firms when it reduces unbillable work and supports business-building activities, rather than trying to replace core legal judgment.
- The biggest leak in most firms’ marketing funnel is response time—if leads aren’t contacted quickly, they simply move on to the next lawyer.
- Without solid data tracking from ad creative to phone call, it’s impossible to know which marketing efforts are bringing in qualified matters and which are wasting time.
- Clear, specific messaging about who you serve and what problems you solve dramatically improves the quality of leads and referrals.
- Continuously feeding one primary AI workspace with your thoughts, content, and processes allows it to “learn” you over time and produce far more tailored, strategic outputs.
“A single, clear message that will resonate with the right people is so, so important.” — Alejo Pijuan
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About Alejo Pijuan: Alejo Pijuan is a former Nike data scientist turned tech entrepreneur and Fractional AI Officer at Realization Partners, a profitability consultancy for law firms. With an academic background in mathematics and computer science, Alejo specializes in bridging complex artificial intelligence—such as Voice AI agents and custom automation systems—with practical business operations to eliminate non-billable administrative friction, accelerate client intake responsiveness, and drive revenue growth for legal practices.
Connect with Alejo Pijuan:
Website: https://realizationpartners.ai/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alejopijuan/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:01]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just a quick reminder about the Be That Lawyer community. From my podcast to my books, this is clearly the next step for you in your growth and development as a rainmaker. Stop doomscrolling and start micro-learning, connecting, and getting fresh ideas from growth-minded lawyers from around the world. Visit bethatlawyer.com/community to sign up today. Build your book, own your future, and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:33]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:55]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. We are your go-to podcast for everything you need to do to build your book, build your brand, grow your law practice, own your future, and be that lawyer. This is where it is, going strong for, I don’t know, six, almost seven years now, 630 podcast episodes, all here for your benefit. If you are someone that has been listening for a while, I want to thank you. I’d also really appreciate if you could share, you know, give us a nice review, but also share with other lawyers. Don’t keep this a best secret. Let’s share this out with everybody. And again, happy to to talk to you about coaching and training, our rainmaker roundtables, and of course, the Be That Lawyer community that you keep hearing about. I would love to have you in there, or if you’re just looking for a demo of the Be That Lawyer community, you can email me at [email protected] or DM me on LinkedIn. Happy to do that. Alejo, how are you, my friend?
Alejo Pijuan [01:46]
I’m really good, man. It’s very good to be here. Thank you for having me.
Steve Fretzin [01:49]
Yeah, you’re like a hip, cool, young guy, right? I’m this old man talking to you. You got the ponytail and you got the big smile and you’re like, you know, you’re an AI expert and you got all this stuff going for you and I’m just trying to figure out how to create a good graphic, you know, using ChatGPT. So, but you’re you’re doing all right out in Lisbon?
Alejo Pijuan [02:08]
Yeah, yeah. Portugal is great, a little moody this week on the weather side, but it’s it’s good to be here and I’m glad there’s no snow around.
Steve Fretzin [02:16]
You’re like the second or third person has told me they moved to Portugal. I’m like, huh, is there something going on in Portugal that we don’t know about? There’s a few
Alejo Pijuan [02:23]
of us.
Steve Fretzin [02:23]
A few. Are you seeing a lot of Americans like get that got out of here?
Alejo Pijuan [02:28]
Yes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, okay.
Steve Fretzin [02:30]
Well, Canada won’t let us in anymore. They hate us at this point, so we got to go somewhere, right? And certainly Portugal sounds like a little warmer temperature than than Canada. But listen, man, I’m excited that you’re here. Let’s jump into our quote of the show. This is a guy who just keeps coming up time and time again, of course Peter Drucker. Here we go. There’s nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. I’m a big a big, you know, how do we clear out clutter and get rid of stuff in our lives? So I really appreciate that. Welcome to the show, Alejo, and tell us a little bit about that quote and why it’s so important to you.
Alejo Pijuan [03:06]
Yeah, yeah. The You said something in one episode, I think with with Elliot Johnson that resonated a lot about having four businesses and this community that you were running, and I was in that same position like 6 months ago, running three different businesses and two communities, spread very, very thin.
Steve Fretzin [03:24]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [03:24]
And then, you know, sat down with my business coach as well, and we realized what do I want to do.
Steve Fretzin [03:30]
Yes.
Alejo Pijuan [03:31]
And I’m very driven towards the new, the novelty, but I also, you know, I understood and I I work with my wife, and she helped me understand that I can’t be switching lanes every 6 months.
Steve Fretzin [03:42]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [03:43]
So we decided what do we want to do and what is what what has no space anymore.
Steve Fretzin [03:50]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [03:50]
So what is useless to do anymore, even if we did it efficiently? No, we need to cut it. Yeah. And and that’s been a huge lesson and a huge lesson that I share with lawyers. Now, how I interpret that quote with lawyers is is you that you don’t have to do at all. Uh-huh. and and that’s kind of where the AI conversation kind of comes in where where can you offload, and and those are always interesting conversations cuz it’s a paradigm shift for them to think that, Well, I don’t need to do this.
Steve Fretzin [04:21]
It’s, you know, first of all, yes, I call it shiny penny syndrome because there’s just all these shiny pennies and we just they’re new and exciting, and I want to pick one up, and I’m I’m on a great track with my law practice and growing it, and then AI says, Hey, here’s another business idea. or I figured something out that would be great, and you start leaning in that direction and and just you totally sidetrack like I have all these great ideas for inventions that are going to make the world better, and I go, That’s all That’s all just distraction right now, like. I mean, maybe I’m missing out on something that could be a world game changing thing, but I think we all need to kind of look inward, and and coaching helps, right? I mean, sometimes it takes another set of eyes to to to help us figure out, you know, what is a distraction and what is real, and where do we real- what’s our passion? And and and what are we really good at doing, and is there a market for it? I think those are a couple of couple of points to make. So listen, everybody. Alejo Pijuan is the fractional AI officer at Realization Partners. We met, and I think we had like this fantastic conversation, and all I kept thinking about in the back of my head is, how do I get this guy on my podcast, and how do we start, like you know, figuring out how to work together? And I would love for you to just take a few minutes and just share a little bit about your background and how you came to be in the space you’re in, helping people with AI and generate leads into business.
Alejo Pijuan [05:39]
Yeah, yeah. So my background is very technical, but I’ve always been a people person. That’s something that I’ve always known. I I studied math and computer science. I did data science. I worked at at Nike as a data scientist, but the my path always took me towards having something of my own. So about three years ago, when after ChatGPT came out, I realized there’s something here, I have a great background to kind of launch myself into into this world and and build my own thing. And a couple of years in, my wife and I noticed that we were getting a lot of lawyer clients, and we started learning about this world and and what I thought was very scary, which was talking to lawyers, were actually really pleasant conversations, very sometimes philosophical.
Steve Fretzin [06:28]
Who’d have thought?
Alejo Pijuan [06:29]
Who’d have thought? Well, I mean, TV shows us something completely different, right?
Steve Fretzin [06:32]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [06:33]
So I was very apprehensive at first, and then conversation after conversation, conversations with you as well, I I realized, wait, I would love to work with these people. I would love to have a relationship with these people and bring my expertise, which is in how do you make AI useful. There’s a lot of hype. How do you differentiate between what’s what’s real, and more importantly, where’s the ROI in AI?
Steve Fretzin [06:56]
Yeah. And we’re all we’re all like we’re all in the weeds, figuring it out day by day and and using it for for you know the purposes of today, and I think people that can see the future and where it’s going and get ahead of it to teach us, you know novices, what to do and how to how to be efficient. Like I’m still waiting for these agents that everybody keeps talking about to come in and swoop in and like execute on an incredible trip I want to take to Portugal, where all the hotels and the airfare and all the restaurant reservations and everything’s just done because it knows me and what I like and where I want to be. Meanwhile, Meanwhile, my wife and I are talking about going to Europe next summer, and I have to now do all the research and I have to go through and like do, make all these plans and set everything up. So, but that’s that’s, you know, that’s a personal example, but I think in business there’s a lot more user examples of how we want to delegate work down, how we want to make, you know, whether it’s document review, whether it’s marketing, whether it’s just efficiency with our admins and our paralegals, you know, how are we being efficient. So, where do you see AI from a standpoint of helping lawyers now, and where do you see it going like 6 months to a year?
Alejo Pijuan [08:05]
Mhm. Yeah, I mean, I’ve had so many conversations in which they bring up document review and drafting.
Steve Fretzin [08:12]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [08:13]
And I’m adamant on not replacing the lawyer work. The lawyer work is there for a reason, and you all get trained so deeply for a reason. Let’s not start with replacing that. That’s the wrong approach. What is everything around it for lawyers that charge hourly? What is the unbillable work that then we can start minimizing? Replacing can be a word, but let’s think about minimizing.
Steve Fretzin [08:38]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [08:39]
And for lawyers that work in contingency, well, can we handle more capacity? And and there’s there’s a lot of value in changing how we’re thinking about it as AI in legal, not replacing the legal work, but supporting the business building part of it.
Steve Fretzin [08:55]
Yeah. Yeah. And there are, you know, so many different things we could talk about around AI, but I think where I wanted to take today and in one of the areas that you really specialize in is in, you know, people are putting a lot of money into marketing and business development and things, and they’re struggling, I think, A, to get the leads, and then if they get the leads, maybe they think it’s great because their phone is ringing, but they’re not converting them through either intake or whether the lawyer is in charge or whether there’s an intake group that is handling it. So, what are you seeing as the most common breakdown between like an initial lead and a signed client, or like people with that are trying to like make intake more effective?
Alejo Pijuan [09:36]
The number one thing has been how fast do they get in touch with these leads.
Steve Fretzin [09:43]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [09:44]
I can look two ways. The the lead finds the the lawyer on Google Maps or in an ad and and calls in. You better answer that call. You better have a service, a voice agent, anything that gets that call, because speed is is the Most important factor,
Steve Fretzin [10:01]
yeah. And
Alejo Pijuan [10:01]
for leads that come in through a website form or a Facebook ad, thing. Getting back in touch with them, so they don’t go to the next ad, to the next listing on Google Maps. That’s where most of the leads get lost.
Steve Fretzin [10:14]
You
Alejo Pijuan [10:15]
see the leads coming in, so you think things are working, but are they actually converting to clients?
Steve Fretzin [10:20]
Right. And maybe a shout out to good timing for a shout out to Lex Reception, one of our sponsors, who, you know, takes all that you know, just just make sure that you are being the most responsive that you can be. And, you know, there’s a saying that I’ve heard since I started sales, you know, 100 years ago, you know, time kills deals. And if you’re not being responsive not you should be responsive with your clients, but you’re you’re absolutely right. If somebody if I call up a landscaper and I get a voicemail, I’m done, right? I’m just done, and and I’m gonna move on to the next one. And if I get somebody and they immediately schedule a meeting with me, then I’m locked in. I know like either they talk to me or I get an appointment. I’m not gonna keep looking, cuz I’m busy. And I now I’ve accomplished something I wanted to accomplish. So, I think you’re you’re spot on with that. What what’s another area that lawyers regularly fail out fail at, in addition to poor responsiveness? Fail at. Mm. Mm. Is it the way that they handle the intake? Is it I mean, what are the What are the things that that you that you are solving for them that they’re that where there where there there’s discrepancy?
Alejo Pijuan [11:28]
Well, there’s a lot of discrepancy in where they’re actually spending their time. I’ve seen, you know, once they actually sit down with a client with with a potential client, things go smoothly. They do their job. Things go well for for most of them.
Steve Fretzin [11:42]
I might argue with that point, but we’ll we’ll go we’ll come back to it.
Alejo Pijuan [11:46]
Cool. Let’s come back to it. We’ll put
Steve Fretzin [11:47]
a we’ll put a pin in it.
Alejo Pijuan [11:49]
But the thing that always comes up in every meeting is is actually timekeeping, is the billing day, is the sitting down for a whole afternoon to do this thing and they’re not spending that time doing business development, actually doing billable activities. That it it was surprising to me how it comes up in 95% of meetings that I have. Mm, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [12:11]
Okay, okay. So, let me ask you about a firm’s intake process, cuz Uh-huh. you know, there are two or three numbers that you look at to tell whether there’s a prob the problem is the is the lead quality, the intake team, or the actual closing process, which which we will get into. How are you How are you sort of evaluating a firm’s numbers to figure out like where the where the the issue is?
Alejo Pijuan [12:37]
Yeah, it’s actually It’s actually pretty straightforward. Take the last three months. If you’re running ads, include marketing spend in here. Okay. But if you’re not, this works as well. Take the last three months of how many people showed interest, initial leads, and then how many actually turned into clients. We take the last three months, so there’s, you know, that’s always that that that space in between someone showing interest and becoming a client.
Steve Fretzin [13:03]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [13:03]
Three months is pretty good. Divide that up, and then if your number of leads converted is is less than 20%, we have an issue. And the first place you have to look is how fast. How fast are we actually getting in touch with them?
Steve Fretzin [13:20]
Right.
Alejo Pijuan [13:20]
The average tends to be around three hours, but that’s just an average. During business hours, it might be 30 minutes, 1 hour, but after hours, it might be 12 hours, and they’re they’re gone by then. Yeah. If you have under 20% conversion rate, it’s it’s a critical problem. But then also under 40% is something that it’s like, well, we know it can be higher, as long as we know that they’re qualified leads. So where is the problem? And speed is the number one place to look.
Steve Fretzin [13:49]
Is there a way through someone’s marketing to, or even when they’re just doing out be out doing BD, and I can maybe address that if you handle the marketing part, to ensure that you’re getting qualified leads? So, you know, you’re finding that all the people calling in for you are, you know, kicking tires, or they’re they’re just really small deals. When you’ve gotten yourself to your point in your firm where you’re handling bigger matters, maybe it’s catastrophic injury versus a slip and fall, or maybe it’s not doing a simple will, but it’s bigger, you know, millionaire estate plans, and all these leads are coming in, and they’re just not qualified. Mhm. What’s your take on that, and what what law firms and lawyers need to do?
Alejo Pijuan [14:32]
Yeah. Yeah, this is where my background helped me a lot. It’s tracking the data.
Steve Fretzin [14:37]
Mhm.
Alejo Pijuan [14:38]
If you are working on, you know, if you’re if you’re spending money on marketing, then making sure that you can track which phone call came from which ad creative that we that we launched. What did we say in that creative? And why did we get 50% unqualified leads? Mhm. But if you’re not tracking it, you just end up frustrated, say, with your marketing agency, and then it’s like, Well, it’s not working. Well, no, no, some of it is probably working, and then some of it is not. It starts with data tracking and then we trace the steps back. How did they land here? Why were they unqualified? What did we tell them that such that they ended up calling?
Steve Fretzin [15:16]
Something lawyers do typically very badly, and I hope nobody gets mad at me for saying this, I don’t think they will, that they don’t necessarily share the intention of the targets that they really want. They just kind of put a wide net out hoping to get everybody, and then they end up wasting a lot of time on unqualified leads and people that are not really right for them. So, for example, I’m looking for only the most ambitious, interested, business developing attorneys. Those are the people I want to work with. Those are the people I want in my community. Those are the people I’m I’m targeting all the time. If you’re a No one listening to this podcast is is under the second category, which is if you’re just a service attorney who doesn’t ever want to do any business development, marketing, or learn it, or have interest, you’re not for me and I’m never going to get those calls anyway, but the point is is like, you know, you have to share with my network. I’m sharing who I want to meet. When I’m posting on my website or posting on LinkedIn, it’s all the same song. And I think lawyers sometimes are trying to capture too much. Like, they don’t want to say, I work with companies that are 5,000 employees or more, because they’re afraid they might miss a 3,000 person, you know, group of whatever. And I think we have to get over the fact that if we’re going to target, we need to make sure people understand who the targets are so they can refer us and they can and the marketing can convert.
Alejo Pijuan [16:38]
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I’ve fallen into the same trap. I think anybody who runs a business has fallen into the same trap. And then, when you take the leap, and you finally figure out your target, your your the who you serve, there’s just a flip that happens. And it takes time, of course, in them finding you once you spread that message, but a single, clear message that will resonate with the right people is is so, so important.
Steve Fretzin [17:05]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [17:06]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [17:06]
I mean, since since you brought it up, I mean, I work with lawyers on messaging. I know AI has become incredibly helpful and useful to help me figure out what someone’s differentiator is, what their message should be, what their tagline should be. Not everyone needs all that, but ultimately, I’m not saying marketing jobs are at risk. They’re not, but you know, there’s there’s creative that just can’t be handled on AI. But if you plug in enough information, it gives you three or four, you know, here’s a couple of thoughts on how you should name your firm, or here tagline, or this is this is who your target is, and it puts it in one sentence. How are you helping lawyers figure out their targets and how to message them.
Alejo Pijuan [17:44]
Yeah. This comes to something you you said earlier, completely unrelated: the the the trip you were planning and trying to get AI to help you. It’s a similar sentiment. It’s how do you get the AI to know you enough? And I would I would say there a couple of steps. Number one, get a tool that allows you to speech-to-text, which is you speak into it, and it just transcribes everything. It will allow you to really get everything out in your brain. The AI helps it structure. It doesn’t find it for you. It doesn’t find the right words. It’s your words, just better structured. So, that’s number one. Number two, have a single place. If you use ChatGPT, great. I I like Claude, and I recommend lawyers use Claude because of the Claude for legal plugins. But have everything in one place, so it feeds on itself. And month week after week, month after month, you actually end up seeing something that I can only describe as magic happen. It starts connecting all the dots together.
Steve Fretzin [18:52]
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Alejo Pijuan [20:33]
say stick with the tool you’re already using.
Steve Fretzin [20:35]
Okay.
Alejo Pijuan [20:36]
And if you’re not married to anything, go with Claude.
Steve Fretzin [20:39]
Okay. Okay.
Alejo Pijuan [20:40]
But the tool that you’re already using knows you the best, so you’re gonna get the best output.
Steve Fretzin [20:45]
Yeah. No, I mean, that’s the thing. I’m I’m comfortable with the That’s my problem to some degree, is I get comfortable with one CRM or one, you know, chat or one Like I have this automation tool that I started using for email automation, and it’s a lot more expensive than the other ones that I the other one, and I tried using the other one, and I was like, oh my god, that’s so much less functional. They want me to do like a lot of like command keyboard to get what I want, and it’s not It just isn’t me, like it isn’t easy to use like the other AI tool that I’m using, and I think I’m just going to suck it up, pay the money, and like, you know, just go where And may maybe that’s just a for now thing, right? Because eventually AI email automation will be you know, will be figured into Gmail and Google and Gemini or whatever. What’s What’s the one attached to Google? Is it Gemini?
Alejo Pijuan [21:37]
Yeah, Gemini. That’s right.
Steve Fretzin [21:38]
Okay.
Alejo Pijuan [21:39]
I I agree with you. At some point, it’ll all be kind of attached together,
Steve Fretzin [21:43]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [21:44]
but it’s different. The quality that you get from a company that is dedicated to say email marketing is going to be different than the quality you get from a company that does everything, even if they have 100,000 employees.
Steve Fretzin [21:57]
Right.
Alejo Pijuan [21:57]
And maybe we can look at this together after the podcast. Is it actually worth it to pay for that tool? And where can AI replace all the command and clicking and and all that stuff from the tool that you’re already using?
Steve Fretzin [22:09]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [22:10]
Yeah, that’s that’s a big question, and that’s what I bring up with lawyers. Is it worth replacing this tool? You’re spending a lot of money on it, probably.
Steve Fretzin [22:18]
So we’ve messaged properly to get the quality lead. It’s about time. You know, the time is of the essence to get that person on the phone to convert it, you know, into intake. Intake then has to, you know, convert it either they can close it on the spot, or, you know, a new potential client, or they’ve got to hand it off to a lawyer, at least they can, you know, make sure the person feels understood and listened to. And I think training intake is is of critical importance. Any other thoughts? Because I I do want to talk about how we walk a buyer through a buying process, and where lawyers sometimes fail at that. And any other Any other take on the on the intake team other than responsiveness that you would suggest people that either doing intake or have a team that they should make that they should be looking into?
Alejo Pijuan [23:01]
There is there’s one thing that has come up, which is when intake doesn’t qualify well enough, and then those leads end up wasting the lawyers time. That has come up a few times in some law firms where the people weren’t well-trained. So, yeah. Let’s jump into that and and what what what thoughts you have on that.
Steve Fretzin [23:18]
Yeah, so the intake team, whoever’s doing intake, whether, again, that’s the lawyer, it’s a team, or it’s an individual, it could be AI, it’s got to be trained up well. And so, I think the the the way that that we start the conversation, maybe build some relationship, ask a certain series of questions that allow us to understand qualification, understand urgency, understand maybe financial requirements, right? This person has a bankruptcy and credit card debt, and they’re never going to be able to pay a bill, yet you’re having the lawyer spend an hour with them. You know, it’s just not going to that lawyer’s not going to be real happy when they get ghosted and not know why after they spent an hour, and thinking this is the best candidate in the world. So, what are your thoughts on on on how we train and get an intake team up to speed?
Alejo Pijuan [24:07]
Okay. So, my specialty over the last couple of years has it has been on voice agents. So, I’ll share that that side of my expertise, which is understand the process that the firm currently has. We don’t try to replace their process because they we assume that they know what they’re doing. This is where I kind of kind of want your insights on what. Yeah, yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [24:31]
So, we understand the process deeply. Then we spend time training the AI, and through the initial conversations, we can find the key points. The They ask these questions, but they don’t really ask those questions. How do you get an AI to make somebody feel heard? It’s not pretending that the AI is human. Definitely not. It’s giving space. Giving space for the person to talk, and the AI can pick out the important things, right?
Steve Fretzin [24:58]
Are you? But are people that have AI agents doing doing intake, are they letting the people know, hey, this is an AI I’m an AI agent, I’m still going to be able to help you, we’re not trying to fake it?
Alejo Pijuan [25:09]
Yes. Yes, that is two sides to that. That’s compliance. It is required. And before it actually was required in 2024, we were already doing it because it was the obvious choice for us. Of course we’re going to tell a person it’s an AI.
Steve Fretzin [25:23]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. People know and you don’t want anyone to feel fooled.
Alejo Pijuan [25:26]
Yes, absolutely. That’s that’s kind of the key point here. We are trying to help somebody, not fool somebody. Yeah. And then that company dedicated to helping lawyers with intake with voice agents is is the direction that I had to move away from, and one of my co-founders took that company and is growing it, and I’m very very happy for him. I’m focused on these realization gap opportunities. Where does the time go into an unbillable activities where it should go into billable activities? And how do you create an AI plan, right? At the end of the day, that’s what everybody is asking. Where’s the ROI in AI?
Steve Fretzin [26:03]
Yeah, I mean a huge part of being successful in a law practice, a law firm is automation and delegation and figuring out like what what is repetitive that doesn’t need your level as the lawyer of education and and expertise to do. And so in many cases that’s intake. Now, on the other hand, and this is where I want to kind of wrap up with before before our final question is, you know, sales-free selling was developed by me 23 years ago primarily because I hated being sold to, I hated being pitched at, and I never felt good in sales role having to do that to other people. Okay. And even though I was, you know, I could sell the sizzle, and I’m got, you know, a good rapport, and all that, it just never felt right. So when I’m working with my clients, yes, getting things qualified for them is best. But in some instances, if it’s a big M&A matter, they’re going to be the one that answers the email, they’re going to be the one that picks up the phone. And what I’m trying to have them avoid is is a couple things. Number one is is pitching, just presenting, selling, talking rates, and here’s the the most important one I’m going to share that some lawyers are going to be like, Ooh. No free consulting. And you might think that you have to free consult. And I’ll tell you, I have people come to my house for landscaping, for HVAC, my an accountant, a marketing agency, whatever it is. And they want to free consult to demonstrate how smart they are. And what what ends up happening is it ends up being a situation where I’m not being thoroughly walked through a buying decision, I’m being given free information, and that information might be interesting, but it also tells me what I need to do on my own. It might tell me that I can go back to my current vendor, explain to them what they need to do, because you just shared your expertise and knowledge. So I that’s that’s really what what we’re all about, is we’re we’re about changing the model of the way buyers buy and the way sellers sell, so that it works as more of a a collaboration versus, you know, What’s in it for me? Selling or buying, it’s all me, me, me, when it should be us and we. Thoughts?
Alejo Pijuan [28:16]
Can I ask you a little bit more about that? Sure. So, are you guiding people towards charging for the initial consultation because it will help the other person actually make a decision?
Steve Fretzin [28:29]
In some instances, when people are getting ghosted on appointments, or when there’s such value for what they’re doing that that charging for an initial meeting, yeah, I’ll recommend that. But if again, if you think about it, if if you’re, you know, a personal injury attorney getting, you know, compensated on the back end, on contingency, if you’re dealing if you’re you’re a mid-market lawyer in M&A or in in employment, and you’re dealing with a GC, you’re not going to say, Hey, GC, general counsel, you know, I’m going to charge you, you know, 750 for initial consultation. You’re hungry for that business. That could pay your bills for the next year. So I think we have to look at everyone’s situation differently. But an example that I can remember very clearly is a divorce attorney who was having, you know, marketing and leads help her to drive in business, and then they were like signing up on her calendar and then ghosting her. And we said, No, no, we’ve got to stop this. We’ve got to put in, you know, an hour of or 30 minutes of of of an initial, you know, fee, 250, 300, 500, whatever, so that to ensure that people are going to put a credit card down to meet with you, because it’s important to them. And that worked out incredibly well. She no longer got ghosted, and she saw some buy-in that people were serious about meeting with her. So there was a a win-win on that side. But every situation needs to be looked at individually. But But I think most importantly, the takeaway is you need to have responsiveness, you need to have good intake that qualifies, and you need to have a good a sales pre-selling process to ensure that if you spend money and energy and time on marketing and business development, that you don’t lose it because you have an outdated system. Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [30:10]
Yeah, yeah, that’s so true.
Steve Fretzin [30:11]
All right. We have to wrap up, Alejo. I’ve got one quick question for you. What’s Alejo’s big mistake?
Alejo Pijuan [30:18]
Oof. I’ve been an educator for a long time, and over the last three years, I was helping people with building AI before I started focusing on on helping lawyers. And I built a community of of thousands of people. And when it was time to ask the question, what is this all for? How are we going to monetize that? What we decided as a team, which I will take responsibility because this was a team decision, we decided to kick everybody out that was not committed towards the next step, which was a very low monthly fee, but paid nevertheless.
Steve Fretzin [30:56]
Yeah.
Alejo Pijuan [30:57]
And I the the big mistake was was taking people’s trust and then turning around. So that’s that’s a big lesson that I will never never do again. So I’m very very careful now with what I talk about, what I promise. Yeah. What
Steve Fretzin [31:14]
I what I find with my community and and just in general with coaching is that if people don’t have like I love to give away. I give away probably more content than anybody I know. However, when it comes to something like a community or my time or coaching, we want people to have skin in the game. So even like when I’ll talk to I don’t work with law firms, but but I’ll talk with law firms and and they’ll say, Well, so you expect us to pay for these people to come and work with you? I go, No, I absolutely don’t want you to pay. I want the individual lawyer to pay my fee because ultimately they need to have the skin in the game. If you’re just going to pay all their fees, they’re going to show up or they’re not going to show up. They’re going to be committed or they’re not going to be committed, and it’s not it’s just not in their best interest for for others. So I think there are reasons why communities should be free. In my case, you know, Be That Lawyer community is is a paid thing. It’s not a lot of money. It’s like one night out in Chicago for the whole year, honestly. But ultimately, I I decided to go with a paid model because I want people to have skin in the game and I want them to use it. And if it’s free, maybe then they’ll just ignore it. It’ll just it’ll fade into the distance, so. Really interesting. Let’s thank our wonderful sponsors, of course Lex Reception. We talked a little bit about intake today. You should not be answering your phones. Get the professionals to do it. You can come up with an AI chat way to do it, but there’s also live people available 24/7, which I think is important. You get a call at [10:00] at night, it could be a good good opportunity, and you’re letting it go because you’re not picking up, that’s a problem. Of course, I want to thank Lawyer.com, amazing group there, and then of course PILMMA’s Super Summit coming up for personal injury folks. So with that all being said, Alejo, what are the best digits for you? How do people people get in touch with you if they want to talk to you about AI, marketing, intake, all the things that you do to help lawyers and law firms?
Alejo Pijuan [32:57]
Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way, Alejo Pijuan, it’s right here, and just make sure you add a note that this is where you found me, cuz I don’t accept everyone, so I just want to make sure that I don’t ignore your audience.
Steve Fretzin [33:10]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe just mention reference that, you know, Hey, I saw you on the Be That Lawyer podcast and I’d like to talk with you, and that’s a a nice way to kind of give some validation that not only, you know, you’re interested in meeting with with Alejo, but also that you’re a listener of the show. So really appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom, you know, really engaging, and I hope everybody takes to heart, you know, the importance of not only marketing and lead gen, but then what do you do with it and how do you follow through in a way that’s going to, you know, make everything work together. So, appreciate you.
Alejo Pijuan [33:42]
Yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for your time and all you do, and 600 episodes is such a feat. I have my own podcast, and we’re at episode what, four? So, thank you thank you for the inspiration. I’m
Steve Fretzin [33:52]
looking looking forward to coming on and making it five, helping you out a little bit there. Yeah, yeah, let’s go. Well, thank you, and thank you, everybody, for hanging out for the last 30 and change. Again, this is the show, and and this is the place to be to build your book, own your future, and be that lawyer. Take care, everybody, be safe and well. And you know we’re going to talk again real soon.
Narrator [34:14]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.