Andy Stickel: Marketing is More than Leads

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Andy Stickel discuss:

  • Overcoming analysis paralysis.
  • Marketing beyond getting leads.
  • Taking a lead through to a sell.
  • Understanding the pain of your prospective clients and the impact that pain is having.

Key Takeaways:

  • Getting leads is rarely the problem.
  • Follow up is the key – three times, three ways, and continuously reaching out.
  • Nobody likes a linktree. Have a real person answer the phone.
  • Focus on the end result, not on the vehicle for getting to that result.

“The way that you get someone to buy something is that when they’re in so much pain, that the value of getting out of pain is greater than the value of the money. That’s what attorneys need to learn how to do.” —  Andy Stickel

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Andrew Stickel, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Andrew Stickel  [00:00]

The way that you get someone to buy something is that when they’re in so much pain, that the value of getting out of pain is greater than the value of the money, right? And that’s what attorneys need to learn how to do. They need to learn how to deal with those objections and how to deal with overcoming business how to show their value, right? So it’s not always a lead problem.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And God, it’s good to be here. I, I’ve just been going nuts. We’re just starting out January, middle of January. And business is cranking lawyers are doing well. I’m doing well. Lots of people looking to create plans and grow their law practices. And you know, you’re only as good as your last year you got to keep looking at the next year and making it work. I’ve got a guest today that’s going to absolutely crush it as it relates to giving you ideas and tips on how to grow your law practice. It’s Andy stickle, who’s the founder of social Firestarter. And before we get into more about Andy, which is going to happen a moment I’ve got of course, some sponsors to thank I’ve got legalese marketing, who does newsletters and email campaigns and just sets up law firms to help take away the day to day and grow their law practices focus on what you enjoy doing practicing law, and of course, money Penny, if you’re looking to help get help with with inbound calls, and in getting chat on your website, and all that kind of fun stuff. Money, Penny is the way to go. And so I want to tell them, I appreciate them as the sponsors today. The quote of the day Andy is from George S. Patton. I don’t know why I picked the general for you, but I did. A good plan violently executed now is better than the perfect plan executed next week. I’m not sure how I feel about the word violently. Because we’re not violently. Yeah, that’s kind of intense. But but that that quote is so like spot on, because lawyers tend to wait and wait and wait to put a plan together. Yeah. And they’re looking for perfection instead of what’s good. And so what is that what you’re seeing? And what does that quote mean to you and your world? Yeah, well,


Andrew Stickel  [02:25]

to simplify it, you can say Done is better than perfect. You know. And that’s I mean, that’s how I live my life is that, you know, I understand that I’m never going to achieve perfection in anything. But the reason that I’m able to get so much done is because I get so much done. And even I accept that it’s not going to be perfect. But it’s better than the thing that I would have put out had I tried to make it perfect. And never actually got it done. You know, it’s funny, I was listening to somebody I was at a conference, I don’t remember who this was. But they were talking about one of the one of the great things about sports is there is there as a definitive end, you know, like football, you play four quarters, and at the end of the fourth quarter, the clock hits zero. And the game’s over, you know what I mean? Yeah, so you don’t have time to go back and rework that play that you could have done in the third quarter when it’s over. You know what I mean? Like, but in life, especially like business projects and things like that, we don’t have that deadline, we directly could go on forever, you know what I mean? So it really holds a lot of people back where they’re always like, I could do it to get better, I could do it better. I could, you know, change this thing about it. And they never end up getting anything done. So yeah, Done is better than perfect is a motto that I live by.


Steve Fretzin  [03:34]

Yeah. And so when I help lawyers put together their business plans for and I’ve been doing that nonstop for the last week. It’s always simple. It’s always a couple pages, it’s always talking about what their focus should be how they should spend their time, and not to 100 things, do two things, three things one thing and get it going don’t don’t get analysis by paralysis, where you just thinking about it all the time. Let’s get it going and just get that activity up. That’s what’s gonna that’s gonna win the day, most of the time. So let’s get into your background. Tell me a little bit about how you got into the into social Firestarter and being a kind of a top player for lawyers, nationally, internationally, etc.


Andrew Stickel  [04:13]

Sure, well, so I started Social Firestarter back in 2012. And I actually didn’t even really plan to work with lawyers. My partner at the time, was previously National Sales Director for one of the really, really, really, really big law firm marketing companies. I’m not gonna say they are. But she was national sales director and she left after realizing that they were delivering basically a garbage product for the amount that they were selling people. So what ended up happening was she she was actually a family friend, and I had started a social media company. And she and I talk because it’s actually a friend of my aunt’s, and my aunt was like, Hey, you should talk to you should talk to this person. So we started talking and I had been I had owned a marketing agency since 2008. And I left that one and I said Oh, I sold my share in that. And then I started Social Firestarter, which is basically just going to be a social media marketing agency. So I didn’t want to do any thing that I’m doing. I didn’t want to be the person out front, I didn’t want to be in charge of sales. I didn’t want to do anything. I basically just wanted to be the guy that did the marketing. And what ended up happening was, I partnered up with her, we started talking and well, actually beforehand, we started talking. And after just kind of a couple things, I kind of made some comments where she realized that what she was selling was total garbage. So a couple days later, she made a sale for $10,000. And she called me right after that. And she’s like, I just made a sale for $10,000. And I can I know this guy is not gonna get any return on his investment. I gotta get out of here, right? So she ended up actually giving the guy a refund. And she left that company. And she joined and she and I joined forces. And our goal was to create a company that actually does a good job for the client that actually delivers results. And that’s groundbreaking that, yeah, exactly. For lawyers and actually wasn’t even intended for lawyers, just a company that does a good job. But she was National Sales Director, so she knew lots of lawyers. So we had one lawyer hires, and then two lawyers hire us. And then four lawyers hires, and then eight lawyers, and word started to spread. And then before you know, we have 50 lawyers, and I guess we’re a law firm marketing company, you know, so


Steve Fretzin  [06:16]

we specialize. Yeah,


Andrew Stickel  [06:19]

exactly. Well, we did it completely, completely by accident, you know, back then I had no idea that you should niche down, I was just like, oh, okay, well, I guess we can get these clients. And then, and then I kind of got more interested in learning how to, in providing content and providing value and all that type of stuff. And that really snowballed to where I am now where, you know, I’ve got over 1200 videos on YouTube, you know, I’ve sold, you know, 1000s of copies of books and things like that. And it’s just been really, really an interesting journey. And it’s one that if you would ask me when I started the company, if this is where I would be, I would have told you you’re absolutely insane.


Steve Fretzin  [06:51]

Yeah, and I think I got word of you. And we just met recently, but I got word of you a number of years ago. And I think I popped down and saw some of your videos. I was like, Oh, this guy knows what he’s talking about. And I saw you presenting in a room full of lawyers and your your handwriting on a whiteboard is disastrous. And by the way, so it’s horrible. Is that and then the worst is like in the there’s something you want to write up and you can’t like, spell the word or remember the word and then change the word. You know, it’s just


Andrew Stickel  [07:18]

a scientific fact that spelling and punctuation and grammar don’t count on whiteboards. And it’s kind of funny because my texting is Yeah, well, so I’m left handed. And when I was younger, my mom used to always get on me about my handwriting and like, you’ve got to have good handwriting if you’re going to get a good job. Well, you know, proved her wrong.


Steve Fretzin  [07:35]

I’ll tell you my son, too. He’s 15. He’s a lefty like I am. Yeah, his handwriting. I mean, mine is bad. History is completely not legible. I don’t it was like, too late to like, get him to a teacher to do handwriting. Because we talked to them. They’re like, yeah, he’s already like, 12. It’s too late. We’re like,


Andrew Stickel  [07:54]

Yeah, that’s I’ve actually thought about taking handwriting classes and trying to like, is there an app, but I can’t find it. I mean, I take, I have a coach for literally everything. Like I have a diet coach who calls me every morning and we talk about what I ate the day before. Oh, my God trainer. I’ve got business coaches, I’ve got sales coaches, I’ve got a marriage coach, so I learned to be a better husband. I I know. I know. There’s so much out there that I don’t know. And I don’t beat around the bush like I’m gonna hire somebody. So I actually tried to find somebody to teach me how to improve my handwriting. I couldn’t do it.


Steve Fretzin  [08:23]

Yeah, I think there that’s why this lady said like, it’s too late. Like, I mean, I’m sure I’m sure you can do. I think if I slow down and write in all caps, like I’m I’m writing a handwritten letter I write in all caps. That helps a little bit. But still, you know, anyway, if I go


Andrew Stickel  [08:37]

slow, I can I can make it legible. But the problem is when the problem is I try to over deliver so when I do my presentations, like where did you actually see me? Did you see me at Ben glasses thing? Is that what you’re telling me or


Steve Fretzin  [08:46]

I was on? I just pulled up a bunch of your videos. And this was you presenting to a roomful of people, and I was gonna bring up the takeaway later, but I’ll just tell you what, like, how much more you can make just by following up just Oh, yeah, just keeping in touch with people which lawyers do a horrible job with. And you’re like, it’s that’s like, that’s where a lot of the money is. And I don’t focus I focus a little bit on that I’m more about like creation, but you’re right. It’s it’s a lot of it’s right there.


Andrew Stickel  [09:12]

Yeah, so that was the heroes an icon some and the problem is is that I over deliver. I tried AIPAC. I’m so much I’m so ambitious and how quickly I think I can get through material so I torturously prepare. If I have 60 minutes, I prepare an hour and a half for the stuff and then I end up at a scramble. And then I’m like, who’s writing on the board is Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [09:30]

Like you’re just make your adjustments on the


Andrew Stickel  [09:32]

fly? And yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it will skip over stuff. But you know, well,


Steve Fretzin  [09:36]

very cool. And I feel like we’re, you know, in a similar place. I also never thought I’d work with attorneys. I got pulled into it with the recession of 2008. The only difference is I was spending so much time with lawyers and helping them specialize in talking to them about specialization that it finally like occurred to me when 80% of my business was lawyers and law firms that I should specialize and then it’s that whole thing What am I good Taking up giving up financial services on giving up accounting and giving up all these other areas. But so what? There’s so many lawyers and there’s so much need, and I’d rather be a big player on a small team than a small player on a big team. So I think that but but very similar in that we both, I guess, never thought of legal as a thing. And now we’re both kind of entrenched in it. So


Andrew Stickel  [10:20]

yeah, if 25% of the lawyers out there hired you, you would, you wouldn’t be able to handle it, you know,


Steve Fretzin  [10:27]

no, I can handle I can handle like, a year, like 40 a year. I’m a one man band. So like I’m like highly interested in like, targeting and working with only the most ambitious, interested coachable attorneys. And I actually gave up working with law firms, because I saw that was just a huge waste of time and energy and money. Because there’s so much politicking and layers of decision makers and just, it was just a roadblock. And then they wanted to change my deliverable and everything. So this way, I’m in, like you said, I’m in control, like, I control everything that happens to make sure that the lawyer gets the best experience. And it sounds like you know, they get the return on investment. That’s, that’s sort of like what you’re all about.


Andrew Stickel  [11:06]

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, yeah. Specialized. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [11:10]

So what are the what are the issues that you’re seeing whether it’s 2021? Or moving into 2022? Like, what are the main things that you’re hearing from lawyers now that maybe, you know, it’s just it’s just the most common issues they’re having?


Andrew Stickel  [11:22]

Well, not what I hear from them. What I hear from lawyers is I need more leads any more leads any more leads, right. But that’s very rarely the problem. Because a lot of times, you know, I mean, we’ve had clients where we actually we did a campaign recently, a couple of ads, but a year ago, two identical campaigns, it was both criminal defense attorneys. One was in the northeast, one was in Florida, we delivered 300 leads to each one, they were both Facebook campaigns, one of the one of the lawyers got zero cases and a 300. Leads, the other one got 75 cases out of 300. Leads, right? So I called the guy who didn’t get any, any cases. And I was like, hey, what’s what’s going on here? How you got 300 leads? He’s like, Yeah, but I couldn’t get them on the phone that, you know, they wouldn’t answer the phone says like, Okay, that’s interesting. So then I called the the attorney who got the 75 cases, I was like, you know, how did you do this? That’s pretty amazing. And he’s like, Yeah, it’s awesome. And I was like, Did you have trouble getting them on the phone? Or would you say, and he’s like, nobody answers the phone the first time, I have the system called three times three ways. And what happens is, every single time somebody, somebody, you know, fills out a form on his website, or leaves a message for his answering service, or emails them or sends a message on DM, what they do is they do three times three ways. The first time they do is they send them a text message, then they give them a phone call, and then they email them. And then if they don’t hear back from them, the next day, they text them, and that you call them and then the email, and if they don’t hear back from again, they text them, and they call them and they email them. And if they direct message them, they also add direct message into all that, right. So I so so the result of that was 75 cases at like, I think his average case value is like, I don’t know, like 3500 bucks or 4000 bucks a case or something like that. And I asked the other attorney, how many times did you follow up? He said, like, you know, I call them like, once or twice. We all know he called one time, you know what I mean? And yeah, that’s what you brought up before. It’s the follow up, you know, so leads are not always the problem. You know, leads are not always wrong. I hear from attorneys all the time. Well, I got a lot of calls, but all the clients are broke, you know, they just don’t have any money, right? But that’s not true. They called you, you’re an attorney, they have a problem. You have to get better at sales, you have to get better at helping them find the money. How do you how do you? How do you figure out, you know, because here’s the thing, people buy things that they can’t afford all the time. And if you don’t believe me just go to Black Friday, go to Walmart on Black Friday, or Best Buy on Black Friday, and you’re gonna see a lot of people around the building buying crap that they can’t afford, right? But the way that you get someone to buy something is that when they’re in so much pain, that the value of getting out of pain is greater than the value of the money, right? And that’s what attorneys need to learn how to do. They need to learn how to deal with those objections and how to deal with overcoming those things, how to show their value, right? So it’s not always a lead problem. And that’s one of my biggest things is that there are so many things you can do in your law firm that have nothing to do with leads whatsoever that can double, triple quadruple your revenue, if lawyers would just do them. And that’s what I that’s what I’m really kind of focusing on. Most of my content that I’ve created was really about how do you get leads? And as I’m evolving, as I’m maturing, I’m realizing that leads are not the problem, you know, leads might be one problem. But if you’re not prepared 300 leads didn’t help this guy, you know, 300 leads, you didn’t get a single case. So whether he got 300 leads or zero leads, it didn’t make a difference. The only thing is that he spent money on these ads now, you know, so he’s actually worse off for getting 300 leads. Yep, yep.


Jordan Ostroff  [14:50]

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Hello, I’m Eric CEO Moneypenny, North America. We’re trusted by leading law firms and attorneys to answer business calls virtually, professionally and brilliantly. Our high tech receptionist service enables us to route calls to your team’s wherever they’re working, and even recognize and prioritize calls based on whether they’re a repeat caller, a new client or a VIP. Trial Moneypenny free today.


Steve Fretzin  [15:38]

So again, you know, it’s it’s it’s all a process that may start with lead generation, but that’s not the end of the process that that leads into, what’s your intake, right? That intake leads to who’s getting the case? And then what’s the initial sales conversation or as I call it, sales, free selling conversation, because your point, it really is about taking someone from a problem to pain and urgency. That’s what drives conversion. That’s what drives someone to take the next step and throw their money down and not ask, you know, is that rates too high? Can you do something for me, they just want to get it done. And they’ll pay the rate? Because that pain is more than even thinking about the question about what is it? You know, what is this car gonna cost me? So let’s talk about that. Because that’s really a big part of what I want to have you on Forrest is to give two or three really good tips on the process of getting the lead all the way through and, and we can go back and forth on it. But But what’s another, so talked about the intake, what should be happening in an intake that may not be happening right now?


Andrew Stickel  [16:42]

Well, so a couple things that I see is phone, trees, phone trees, are a huge thing that I call, I still call law firms all the time. And there’s phone trees all the time. And it’s like, I mean, we had a client a couple of years ago, social security disability attorney, right. And he was a client, I called him up and I got his phone tree, you know, press one for this, and press two for this and press their fist. And we were doing our monthly meeting with them. And I was looking at his call records. And I saw that he got a lot of calls like he was ranking number one in Google. He’s in Los Angeles, he’s ranking number one in Google is ranking, you know, all the calls were coming in. We saw he’s getting lots of calls, but the duration was one minute. So I’m looking at it. And I’m like, I know what’s happening. I know, they’re calling, and they’re getting the phone tree. And they’re hanging up. Right. So I talked to him, I was like, I was like, I’ll make you a bet. And I did this out this is kind of an educated that just because of the fact that I saw how many calls he was losing. As if you get rid of the phone tree, and you have a real person Answer your phone for one month. If you don’t double your intakes, I will pay for your marketing for the next two months. And next month, I followed up with him and never had to pay for his marketing because he doubled it, you know, because because that’s the thing is like, people don’t realize it’s like treat people the way you want to be treated. That doesn’t necessarily mean like be kind to everybody, when you should be kind to everybody. But think about from a customer service standpoint, how much do you love calling the bank, everybody hates calling the bank why? Because you got to press one, you got to do this, you got to talk to the you get to talk, the worst thing about the bank, I’d rather type I can’t stand when they have to enter my phone number. And then there’s a noise in the background. And it screws the whole thing, you know, like, this is the experience that that people hate. I don’t think there’s anybody out there that loves calling the bank. Yet as a lawyer, you’re going to do this for your customers who are who are starting not even your customers, your prospects who before they can even talk to you to give you any money, you’re going to make them jump through all these hoops. It’s not gonna happen. You know what I mean? Like


Steve Fretzin  [18:38]

I find myself at I find myself just shouting into the phone, customer service or customer trying to get out.


Andrew Stickel  [18:45]

I just keep smashing the zero button until somebody


Steve Fretzin  [18:51]

cycle that I’m in. And I think that might be where, you know, like, like a money, Penny, you know, type of, you know, receptionist live, live chat, live phone, like people want to talk to a human. And I think if you can incorporate that into your intake, that’s going to solve a lot of problems right from the get go. Yeah, never. Yeah,


Andrew Stickel  [19:11]

let me add this. Also, please. No one should ever get your voicemail. Right? I want you to think about this. If your toilet is overflowing, and you call a plumber, and the plumber says Hi, this is plumber bill. We’re not here right now. But leave us a message and we’ll call you back. Are you going to leave a message? Or are you going to hang up and dial the next plumber on the list?


Steve Fretzin  [19:31]

I had to do that. And by the way, if they kept that voicemail, it could be the funniest voicemail they’ve ever got. Because there was sewage coming out of my toilet. And I had no no idea what to do about it. I finally figured out Shopback but everybody was like, it’s everywhere. It was like this, if they should like they can publish that. That is a commercial and make millions. Yeah. And this


Andrew Stickel  [19:53]

is everybody’s problem is an emergency to them. Yeah, yeah, you’ve got to treat it that way. Even if you understand that look, this isn’t really that big of a deal. It’s a big deal to them. And they’re going to keep calling and keep calling and keep calling until they get an attorney on the phone who’s going to help them? Right. So the faster you can stop them from calling and the only way to do that is give them a real live breathing person. And the first and this should not be, you know, law office. Yeah, I’m trying to I was in a car accident, okay, let me transfer you and then transfer to someone’s voicemail that is no good either, right? You need to get their name, you get to the person who answers the phone needs to be able to do an intake. And the reality is, is that some of these cases could be worth millions of dollars, were one time you will pay for your receptionist answering the phone for the rest of your career, if you get that one, you know what I mean? So it’s like, stop being cheap and take yourself seriously and run your business like a business, you know, instead of instead of just just treating people like a number, you know?


Steve Fretzin  [20:48]

Yeah. So, you know, the other piece of it is, you know, I find that there’s a there’s a common expression used in legal, it’s, you know, we went out and we made the pitch made the pitch. And so I always talk about pitching, convincing selling as sort of dirty words. And what I’m trying to get people to do is do their research, ask questions, listen, understand, be empathetic, and do it. And to your point earlier, which was so solid, get to the pain get to where it’s not just the problem. But what does that problem costing? And what’s the impact? What happens if nothing changes? And so I’m constantly training lawyers on how to take people down a like a path to be understanding, what are some tips or thoughts that you have on that particular subject?


Andrew Stickel  [21:37]

Sure. So you know, there’s this misconception that people hate sales, they hate people they hate they hate being sold. Right? And you’ve probably heard the saying, people love to buy but they hate to be sold. Right? Have you ever heard that? Oh, yeah. That’s that’s completely false. People love to buy and they love to be sold. What they hate is they hate bad sales experiences. Right? So like, like this thing right here. The iPhone, right? Yeah. Do you remember the first time you heard and I heard about an iPhone? Like, yeah, that was like, like, I was so excited. Like, do you remember the feeling of that? Like, I’m actually I’m pulling the trigger on buying a Tesla. And I’m going on Friday, I’m going to test drive it. I’m so excited about this entire process. Right? Yeah, that’s awesome. I have Yeah. But it’s a great sales experience. Right. I stood in line for five hours from my first iPhone, you know, at the Florida law, I just stood in line for you know how a lot more time back then. But people love to buy and they love to they love to be sold. What they hate is they hate bad sales experiences. So the reason that people have bad sales experiences is because they’re convincing instead of persuading. Now, this is the difference. When you’re convincing someone to do something, you are trying to get them to do something for your reasons, right? When you’re persuading someone, you are attempting to get them to do something for their reasons. So what do I mean by that? What you have to do is you have to figure out what is the outcome that they desire, right? And show them that you are their best chance of achieving that outcome. Right? So I have something I call the airplane test. And it’s a test that I always tell lawyers to figure out. Are you doing? Are you are you talking about the right thing in your sales pitch, right? So I always tell this, this thing is so my wife and I, we went to Cancun a couple years ago for our anniversary, we tried to go every year, but the first time we went, we hired a travel agent, and the travel agent, you know, did the research for us and found the hotels and then she got on the phone with us. And she’s like, Okay, here’s the hotel you should go to. It’s really cool. It’s got all you can all you can eat all you can drink. That’s adult only. So there’s no kids and we have three kids. So definitely, definitely excited about that. You know, our room has a private pool, we actually have our own Butler, there’s seven restaurants, it’s right on the beach, they bring you drinks on the beach and all the food that you want on the beach, and you have your own cabana Tiki hut and all that type of stuff. Right. But the one thing she didn’t tell us about you know what it was? Have you heard the story before?


Steve Fretzin  [23:55]

There’s there’s alligators in your room? No, no alligators.


Andrew Stickel  [23:58]

The one thing she didn’t tell us about is the airplane ride. She didn’t tell us about the airplane ride. That takes us to Mexico that takes us the resort, right? And the reason why is because the airplane ride sucks. Nobody wants the airplane. Right? Right. So you think about all the stuff that has to happen with the airplane ride, you got to get to the airport two hours early, then you got to check your bags and you got to go through the International Terminal, then you got to go through TSA then you got to get in line for the plane and you got to find your gate. You got to you know, get on the plane and get off the plane, go through customs, get your bags and figure out how am I going to get you know, in a third world country. How am I going to get from the airport to that nobody wants that it sucks, right? Right. But the airplane is the vehicle that gets you to the destination. What they want is they want the resort they don’t want the airplane Right, right. Yeah, the problem is, most lawyers are selling the airplane right? Most lawyers are like you need a bankruptcy. We’ll do a chapter 13 or chapter 11 or chapter seven bankruptcy or you need a divorce or you need whatever it is an estate plan right? But that’s the vehicle that gets them to the resort the resort is they want to be free from their debt. they want to buy a house, they want to fix their credit they want. And even even further than that, why do they want a house, they want a house because they’ve been living in an apartment for five years. And their kids are nine and 11 years old, two boys, and they’re sharing a room, and they’re constantly fighting. And their wife is always complaining about a kitchen being too small in their apartment, and they just need to get out of the thing. Or maybe they’re sick of driving a piece of crap car because they have terrible credit. They want to fix the credit. And they want to have that ego boost, right? So that’s what they want. They don’t want a bankruptcy. The bankruptcy is the vehicle that allows them to get to the thing that they want. Right? Right. So when you understand not specifically, well, yes, specifically what they want, and then specifically why they want it. So you understand they want to buy a new house. And the reason they want to buy a new house is because their wife wants a new kitchen, and their kids are sitting in a room and they need their own bedroom and the dog needs a yard to run in and everything, then you can help them understand that their best chance of getting that house and getting that dream kitchen and getting the kids their own room and getting the art is if you help them take care of their financial their financial problems now. And the way that you’re going to do that is through a chapter seven or 13 bankruptcy or whatever it is, right. But you’re only selling the result. And the result is the thing that they want. Not what you’re trying to sell. You know, and that’s the biggest, if I can teach one thing about it, like that’s all you need to know


Steve Fretzin  [26:21]

what they take away. That’s the best. Yeah, awesome, man. Awesome. Listen, we we have a limited amount of time. I know I want to get to ask you about the three best of and also, you’ve got a really cool project you’re working on that is really impressive. And I’m a part of it. I sent in some content to you know, help out with it. And I’m trying to introduce you to new people to try to fund this but its operation Underground Railroad. Can you give a 32nd on that?


Andrew Stickel  [26:47]

Yes. So basically, I became aware of this organization. And basically, there are millions of children who are basically caught in sex slavery right now around the world. And, you know, I’ve got three kids. And this is something where it hit me personally. And I was like, Alright, it affected me personally. And I was like I this, I gotta do something about this. So what I’m doing is I’m bringing together lots and lots of people, lawyers and legal vendors in the legal industry. And we are collectively working to raise $1 million to benefit operation underground railroad. And what operation Underground Railroad does is they’re an organization that actually goes and literally does like the SWAT team extractions, and rescues kids that are being held in the sex slavery situations. And like there’s some huge people involved like Tony Robbins is, I think their biggest their biggest donor. So there’s a lot of really, really big people that are involved in operation Underground Railroad, and I wanted to do my part and bring everyone together. So basically, we’re doing a really cool fundraiser where if you donate you get access to this entire library of content that was put together from awesome people like you and I’ve got a lot of stuff in there and we’ve got tons of other vendors and lawyers in there who have created specific content about how to grow law firms, how to have a more successful law firm anything you need if you’re a law firm owner and you get a fruit you get access to this library of content completely free when you make your donation I don’t have the link right off top my head but we’ll make sure you have it for the show notes.


Steve Fretzin  [28:14]

Yeah, we’ll definitely put that in the show notes so people can donate if not money then their their time to try to help the cause. Either way, I know it’s going to be beneficial to this very important cause and I appreciate you spearheading that and I’m just happy to be a part of it. I’m glad that you guys reached out to me I actually connected through Allison Williams shout out to Allison Williams calm Hey, Alison


Andrew Stickel  [28:32]

Allison’s Awesome. Yeah, awesome. Great.


Steve Fretzin  [28:35]

Let’s move on to the three best OB and we’ll do again a speed round here but you’re in Tampa, Florida. So favorite restaurant, what I what you would take me to do if I came down to visit like what what’s a cool thing to see or do and then what are the locals into?


Andrew Stickel  [28:50]

So I’m actually in Lakeland, Florida, but I can do Lakeland and I can do Tampa, so Lakeland Florida. 1961 is a great restaurant here in Tampa. I got to go with Eddie V’s that’s my my favorite restaurant in Tampa. I love that place. I think they have never were though so it might not


Steve Fretzin  [29:05]

be a good chain. Yeah, TV. Yeah, I’ve


Andrew Stickel  [29:06]

heard of that is it’s a very expensive chain. It’s like it’s one of the places where steaks like 100 bucks, but yeah, I’ve had whenever someone wants to take me to dinner I’m like, Hey, let’s go to Eddie V’s


Steve Fretzin  [29:16]

Yeah, I’m happy to take on her dollar steak. Yeah, exactly.


Andrew Stickel  [29:19]

Exactly. And the second question was what was what


Steve Fretzin  [29:22]

it was about so what are its we bet EVs we’ve had this great meal like what would be something I’d have to go see or do in Lakeland Florida.


Andrew Stickel  [29:30]

Do you use in Lakeland Florida, Tampa. See Tampa. So you know I’m pretty easy. I like just I like I like outdoor stuff. So like, you know, I love going to top golf going. Tons of fun. Yeah, there’s a place down here trying to think what else there is in Tampa.


Steve Fretzin  [29:48]

sold some pretty decent golf courses.


Andrew Stickel  [29:51]

Yeah, lots of golf balls, Florida. So there’s lots and lots of golf down here. I think Top Golf is one of my favorite things. And as soon as we get off to here I’m going to be like I should have said that, you know, you actually you know what I really love. I love going to St. Petersburg and just kind of walking around down downtown. I love St. Pete Florida. Pretty close to here also, that’s a day trip to Tampa. Yeah. So love St. Pete. And then the last question was what was left? Just


Steve Fretzin  [30:14]

like what are you into? What are the locals into? And I think you mentioned St. Petersburg is a great place to kind of walk around. Yeah, anything else? Anything else that just the locals are kind of been into and sort of been hot, maybe since the COVID. Era since the


Andrew Stickel  [30:27]

COVID. Well, in Lakeland, you know, there’s not a ton to do a lot of golf. Golf is definitely big. I am really drawn a blank right now. And I know when how great and I knew as soon as as soon as we hang up. Oh, it’s just that. Now see, what did I do recently?


Steve Fretzin  [30:42]

You can always email me and I’ll put it back in the show notes. But yeah, so


Andrew Stickel  [30:45]

I’ll say this. This weekend, my wife and I went to Bach tower, which is like a botanical garden. And they’ve got this like 80 foot, like eight storey tower that was just built in the middle of it, which is really, really cool. It’s In Winter Haven, Florida, which is about probably 25 minutes from Lakeland. So BOC towers really cool. My kids and I have annual passes to Disney take my kids to Disney all the time, you know. So yeah, there’s a lot of cool stuff to do down here. It’s I’m just drawing a blank.


Steve Fretzin  [31:12]

Oh, man. It’s all right. Listen, I kind of threw that out at you. So Andy stickle. Thank you so much for being on the show. Just appreciate what you’re doing, how you’re helping the legal community, how you’re helping with the operation, underground railroad. That’s all fantastic. And just keep doing what you’re doing, man. It’s awesome. Awesome. Well, hey, thanks


Andrew Stickel  [31:29]

for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, and thank you everybody


Steve Fretzin  [31:31]

for spending some time with me and Andy today. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways. I have my usual page of scrawled left handed notes on my remarkable two that I’m using. And listen it’s all about being that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Everybody Be safe, be well and have a great year. Talk to you guys later.


Narrator  [31:54]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes