Ashley Robinson: Law Firm Marketing the Right Way

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ashley Robinson discuss:

  • Creating a life on purpose.
  • Niching down your business to focus on who you want to work with.
  • Where lawyers need help with putting their marketing money.
  • Understanding what potential clients (and Google) are seeing when they look at your website.
  • Working with your marketing company to know what’s happening now and what the future holds.

Key Takeaways:

  • Plan to be present in your relationships and in your business.
  • Marketing isn’t bad, but a lot of nuance and strategy goes into understanding what you need for your firm specifically.
  • You need to understand your goals before you start building your marketing plan.
  • Does your client speak to your greatness? Or does it speak to your client’s pain points?

“It’s on me to bring you qualified leads, it’s on you to be a good lawyer and to convert those leads into clients.” —  Ashley Robinson

Email Steve at [email protected] for a chance to audit one of his exclusive rainmaker round table groups in April!

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Episode References: 

About Ashley Robinson: Ashley Robinson is the founder of Green Cardigan Marketing; a boutique marketing agency who specifically targets the unique marketing needs of the legal industry.

Connect with Ashley Robinson:  






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Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hello, everyone. Have you ever wondered how much more business you could be generating each month? Well, you can take the Be That Lawyer challenge to find out. If I’m unable to help you find the money that’s been evading you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for the time invested together. Just go to Fretzin.

[00:00:15] com to sign up. I’m challenging you. Now enjoy the show.

[00:00:23] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host.

[00:00:45] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to Be That Lawyer, the show helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Today’s a very unique day, and I’ve got a two timer back with me today, and uh, Ashley, how you doing Ashley? Good. How about [00:01:00] you? Good. Anybody ever call you a two timer?

[00:01:02] Ashley Robinson: No first time, but I love it

[00:01:04] Steve Fretzin: so far. I love it. Okay In podcasting that’s acceptable in in a personal relationships. Maybe less so.

[00:01:10] Ashley Robinson: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree in business I’ll take it being a two timer on your podcast is the only time that might be acceptable.

[00:01:15] Steve Fretzin: All right All right. Well, we’ll leave it at that.

[00:01:17] Uh, hey guys if you’re hearing the show for the first time welcome We um, we are helping you to uh figure out how to expand your law firm how to live the best life how to Make every day count Really enjoy your career in law. Um, if you’re hearing about frets and for the first time, we only do two things.

[00:01:33] We make rainmakers and we take existing rainmakers and make them better. So it’s sort of like a, a bad to good, a good to great and a great to excellent situation. And so, uh, we’re doing that in two ways, either through intensive training, coaching, uh, really, um, helping lawyers internalize how to do business development as a learned skill.

[00:01:51] And then we have the Rainmaker Roundtable groups, which also meet, its. Putting a bunch of very successful lawyers in a room together, let them battle it out and share best practices and, and, uh, [00:02:00] help each other solve problems and that’s just a ton of fun. Ashley, we always start with our quote of the show and you’ve got one that I think is not just a quote that’s important to you, but it’s up on your wall.

[00:02:09] So let’s, let’s talk about this. Intentional days create a life on purpose. Um, which is great. That’s, that’s, yeah. And most people just live in, live in moment to moment, day to day without really thinking about that. But why is that, that quote so meaningful to you?

[00:02:25] Ashley Robinson: It, yeah, from a personal perspective and from a business perspective, it’s very important.

[00:02:29] So it’s on my calendar for a reason, meaning I have to look at the events that I plan to ensure that it is an intentional life. That it is number one result revolves around the relationship that means the most to me my husband My family and then number two for my business intentional days create a business on purpose So that’s being very guarded with my calendar This is fairly new for me probably you steve and many of us who get started of just giving away time on my calendar Anybody can take can take time on my calendar [00:03:00] But then when I took ownership of my calendar, um, that changed.

[00:03:04] So the intentional days create a life on purpose is number one for my personal life and what means the most, it means the most to me. And so that means not staying at the office every day to eight o’clock. That’s okay. Sometimes, so it just helps me and it helps remind me what’s most important. And you have to plan to, to be present in your marriage.

[00:03:23] You have to plan to be present as a daughter and as a sister and as a best friend, those, those relationships that mean the most. And then you have to plan to be a successful business owner.

[00:03:32] Steve Fretzin: So, so essentially you’re, you’re, you’re just not letting the day have you, you’re having the day, you’re having the week, you’re creating what you want your, your time to be focused on and I think lawyers struggle.

[00:03:43] I mean, we talk about time management almost every day when I’m working with, with lawyers about how to do it and many of them are just living out of their inboxes and, and letting the inbox control their day. And They would say, well, how do you fix that? And that’s a whole other show, right? But, um, and, and, and, and by the way, there’s a number of [00:04:00] folks that have been on the show that, you know, can help with that.

[00:04:03] Um, and I’m not going to give out names, but go through it and you can just type in, um, time management on my website in the, in the search box and you’ll find, you know, the shows that relate to that topic. So give us a little bit of your background leading into your be that lawyer tipping point. So people have an understanding of, of, um, how you came to be.

[00:04:21] Ashley Robinson: So I was in marketing for several years. I worked in automotive, uh, marketing, and so we worked exclusively with the individual dealership. And I loved working at an agency. I loved how fast paced it was. I’m extremely competitive. I played a collegiate sport. I played golf. I played golf in high school and college, and then played a little bit after college pursuing it professionally.

[00:04:42] So I am competitive to a disgusting degree. And I love that about myself. I express it in my business. I express it in my workouts. I express it in every area of my life. Um, so I loved how competitive our, our owner could [00:05:00] be saying, look, I am the best in this industry. That’s all we do is work in this industry.

[00:05:04] And at the same time, as I’m working at this agency. I knew I wanted to have my own business. So the two things that I’m having this dynamic going on. So, uh, cut to cut a long story short, that’s where it was. And that’s where it came about was quitting that job, moving into a full time working with law firms.

[00:05:21] Um, I started working with one lawyer and quickly saw the need, uh, and then took the leap to go full time. It was at the very beginning of. Of COVID. So, so that’s the, the short version of it, of working in an industry saying, this is legit. I love this. I love that you can focus on one industry. And then I translated that into legal as soon as I saw how much help they needed.

[00:05:44] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I’m following that exact. I’m a little ahead of you as far as when I started working with lawyers about 16 years ago, but the path is very similar. And I just never really thought lawyers needed help with business development and how limited their education, knowledge and [00:06:00] expertise is in that space.

[00:06:01] So they’re great lawyers. But no concept of how to plan and execute on business development. Same thing with marketing. It’s just, it’s just a foreign language. So the idea that we, you know, and also the, here’s the funny part, like I was explaining to them the importance of specialization and helping them figure out their specialization and how they’re going to, you know, own the market and be, be a bigger player.

[00:06:21] And I hadn’t pulled the trigger myself. So I was feeling a bit of a hypocrite at times. And I was like, eventually. Yeah. When I saw the numbers and saw that this all made sense, I decided to push my chips in and specialize, but it sounds like we have similar paths on that in that, in that vein.

[00:06:34] Ashley Robinson: Yeah, the lack of knowledge as it comes to, as it revolves around creating a business and processes, it’s just not there.

[00:06:42] They’re very, very intelligent people, but they were so focused. Most of them to, to overgeneralize here, went to school and they’re so focused on crafting this one specific skill. Let’s pass the bar. Let’s okay. I’ve passed the bar. Let’s, let’s get a job. And so their head has been down for years, just [00:07:00] practicing law and it’s a lot.

[00:07:02] I mean, they’ve got to practice and they’ve got to keep up with the changing laws. And, and so it makes sense that they don’t know how to run a business. Um, and they know they don’t know how to run a business. They know they don’t understand about marketing. Uh, so it is a good fit when they meet folks like you and I, who can say, go practice law.

[00:07:17] Let me help you on the business side or go practice law. Let me grow your firm. So it’s a good marriage between the two. Okay.

[00:07:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and for everyone listening, in case you’re wondering who’s this, this very bright, intelligent person I’m speaking with, it’s Ashley Robinson, owner of Green Cardigan Marketing.

[00:07:32] She’s not only a friend of mine and a friend of the show, she’s one of our sponsors, and um, I was just so delighted to have you back and, and talk about marketing and, and we want to go high level to, to the, to the weeds a bit, but let’s start off with why do lawyers and law firms struggle with Where they put their money in marketing and, and how they really look at marketing, I think a lot of, you know, you know, the, the, the concept of random acts of marketing, you know, comes up all the time and [00:08:00] I’m going to write this or I’m going to do this website or I’m going to, you know, it’s just like, whatever’s the soup of the day, they kind of, they kind of drink.

[00:08:06] So why do, let’s start off with why is that such a big problem for lawyers and how does it really hurt them and, and what they’re trying to accomplish?

[00:08:15] Ashley Robinson: Yeah, the the random acts of marketing. So again, they’re just not skilled and and educated on the marketing channels and the different faucets to turn on.

[00:08:24] And they shouldn’t be right again. They’re practicing law, but they are persuaded by their friend or what they see or what they believe to be true. And they’re just turning on different faucets and turning them off and putting a little here and putting a little there. And at the end of the day, it is a ginormous waste of money.

[00:08:41] And by the time usually they’ve landed in with me, they’re so frustrated and they’re so skeptical and they think it’s us, they might think it’s us, the marketers or the channel that doesn’t work, that’s not true. It’s every channel is needed, but it’s depending upon your practice area, your budget, your geographic area, what are your goals?[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] So there’s so many, so much nuance in it. But that’s often overlooked. So it’s a waste of money. It develops frustration. They waste time before they meet with someone who can guide them along. Here’s the strategy that you need to use for your firm. So I don’t know if that’s the long answer to your short question.

[00:09:17] I don’t know if that answers your question. But oftentimes when they come to me, they’re just fed up and frustrated thinking marketing doesn’t work. And that could not be further from the truth. You’re just not using the correct marketing channel. You’re not turning on the correct marketing channel for your firm, your practice area, your goals and your geographic area.

[00:09:35] Steve Fretzin: Well, and also marketing can be tracked better than other areas. I mean, business development can be tracked because we look at how many meetings people have and what they’re closing and bringing in and what their book size is. So it’s very measurable. And I think one of the problems is that marketing isn’t seen as a trackable, productive, you know, use of money and investment and what the ROI is when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

[00:09:59] Ashley Robinson: [00:10:00] Absolutely. Gosh, there’s so many ways to track marketing. There’s paid marketing and then there’s organic marketing. Paid is easier to track than organic, but there’s still so many ways to track. I mean, the easiest opportunity you have is to track your phone calls. Track the, the, the leads, the intake forms on your, on your website.

[00:10:18] It, there are so many different measures that we can, or measurements we can track. Again, going back to the frustration, I often talk to lawyers and they’re like, yeah, I worked with marketing person and they’re just showing me the number of users that come to my website. That’s difficult. That’s a pretty vague.

[00:10:33] There’s a lot of ambiguity in that. That is a number that we show our clients, but we also look at the numbers that move the needle, the phone calls. Uh, you know, the, the, the contact forms, how many folks showed up to the webinar, it’s on, it’s on me to bring you qualified leads. It’s on you to be a good lawyer and to convert those leads into clients, but there are so many different measurements that we can track our job.

[00:10:54] We can track and then you as a law firm internally, your intake process. There’s so much tracking [00:11:00] and measurement and marketing that should be in place in your intake process, but it requires you having somebody helping you with your business development, helping you stay organized, helping you understand these things or else you wake up and every day is just a cluster every, every day is a disaster.

[00:11:14] You’re not tracking anything.

[00:11:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and some of it is, is to blame of the lawyers and some of it is to blame of the agencies who are not really strategic in their direction. What they’re doing is they’re hearing what someone wants and saying, we do that. And let’s do that. And so, but, What the lawyer wants and what the agency says yes to may not be what is actually gonna get them results.

[00:11:41] So they’re not saying, hey, let’s do like a full body examination before we decide to do surgery. Like, let’s look at what you’re trying to accomplish. What are your goals? What are your problems? What are your, who are your clients? Who are your targets? They’re not going into the weeds on a lot of that stuff.

[00:11:56] So therefore, it’s just, they’re part of the problem in the sense that [00:12:00] it’s, Random acts of things that are getting done, but that maybe aren’t strategic in the way that they’re, that that dish is, is they should be.

[00:12:09] Ashley Robinson: Absolutely. It’s, you know, the analogy, I love the random acts of marketing. The analogy we use is grabbing the hammer and the nails and just start building.

[00:12:18] I don’t know what you need. I’m just going to start building though, because I’m going to take your money as quickly as humanly possible.

[00:12:23] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,

[00:12:23] Ashley Robinson: we do differently. And I hate when folks say that they do things differently. But it is as sincere as I could possibly be. And we have a page on our website called our process.

[00:12:32] It’s different than what I’ve heard of in the industry. And our greatest clients are clients who have worked with an agency, and then they’ve come to us because they see the process is different. We start with a blueprint, and you have to pay for that. Because my team is going to put on average three to three and a half hours into this marketing blueprint.

[00:12:49] And I’m not going to give that away for free. And it helps me to know who’s serious. We only want to work with law firm owners who are truly serious about growing. So what we do is we start a few calls, make sure we’re a [00:13:00] good fit for each other. Am I a good fit for you? Are you a good fit for me? And there are plenty of times I say, I don’t think we’re a good fit.

[00:13:06] And send them to someone else. But for those clients, I say, we’re a good fit. I really believe I can help you grow. Look, our next step is we’re going to put together a blueprint. We’re going to audit your website. We’re going to look at your top three competitors. We’re going to look at the market. What is available in the market?

[00:13:22] Because on those few calls that we’ve had before, I’ve asked them, what are your goals? So when we get back on that blueprint call, I can say, you can hit those goals because the market is there. Or I can say the market’s quite, you don’t have that much market. You’re, you’re in a state planning firm in a tiny town in Alabama where I’m from, but what I do see is this could be a number that we could achieve and then here’s how we’re going to get there.

[00:13:45] We first got to make your website healthy. It’s bad. Or we first got to change the call to actions on the website or whatever it may be. It’s different for every single person we talk to, which is why they have to pay for that strategy session. Um, but we have found there, there are many years I went without the strategy [00:14:00] session and then realized this does not make sense.

[00:14:03] We are slinging stuff together, and it does not make sense, it’s not the best use of the law firm, and they’re going to leave, and that is not what I want. I want clients who are sticking around for the long haul. So when we change that, that’s been a game changer for us. My team went from being frustrated six months in, they’re like, actually, we can’t make this firm successful.

[00:14:22] Their website is unhealthy. It’s bad or whatever. There’s no excuse now. We look at your, we look at you from a blueprint perspective. We call it a blueprint because again, you don’t just start building a house, right? We say to you, well, Steve, are you and your wife going to retire in this home? If so, you probably don’t need an upstairs.

[00:14:40] Do you want to wrap around porch? Well, that doesn’t make sense. You’re in downtown Chicago, right? Like it’s so custom to you. You have one son. Okay. He’s going to be moving out. We want, are you going to move? So that’s how

[00:14:51] Steve Fretzin: soon is my son moving? Okay.

[00:14:54] Ashley Robinson: Look, I can’t, I can’t grant you all of your wishes. So [00:15:00] it’s, it’s a great analogy because those builders who take a step back and say, let’s think about this.

[00:15:06] How long are you going to live in this house? That is a successful build, and that’s a successful client for us. If you’ll be patient with us, we’re not going to start, you’re not going to start marketing tomorrow. It’s probably going to be four, five, six weeks from now, because we’ve done a blueprint, a strategy, we’ve said, ah, before we can begin dumping SEO to your site, we need to fix a few things.

[00:15:27] So that has been a game changer for us. Um, and it makes a stand out in the market, but it just makes sense. We believe it just makes sense to do well.

[00:15:33] Steve Fretzin: And just to share my experiences. I mean, part of our, our arrangement and working together as you’re the sponsor. I’ve also moved my website over to you and the work that we’re doing.

[00:15:43] And you took me through that exact process, right? What are you trying to accomplish? What you review the site? It was full of, you know, problems and disease and all that. And you fixed it all. And, and, and now we’ve got this, this glowing, beautiful site up and the process. You can tell [00:16:00] who you want to work with on your website, who you want to work with on your marketing by the care of the diagnosis, by the care of the strategic thinking that goes into it.

[00:16:10] And if you’re not getting that from your agency now, uh, and you’ve got your brother in law helping you where you have to, there’s a good chance you’re not getting the kinds of results you could get if you do it from the top down or the bottom up or however we want to look at it with strategy first.

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[00:17:48] Ashley Robinson: law firm owners. Are you tired of relying on referrals to grow your law firm?

[00:17:52] Have you been burned by marketing agencies who do not understand the legal industry? Hey, my name is Ashley and I am the owner of Green Cardigan Marketing. [00:18:00] We help law firms just like yours grow through marketing strategies that work. We track measurable data to make our decisions. We monitor your market, your competitors, and your online footprint.

[00:18:11] To schedule a call with me today to see if we can help your law firm Visit us at greencardianmarketing. com.

[00:18:20] Steve Fretzin: And I want to ask you actually specifically about what you consider to be Our law firm and you can pick an area of practice if you want because you’ve done this over and over and over again How you come up with a strategy?

[00:18:31] How do you how do you? How do you come up with what the overarching theme or strategy should be for a, for a law firm that’s looking to differentiate, looking to own a market, looking to, to, you know, not compete, but be, be seen as the leader.

[00:18:45] Ashley Robinson: Yeah, great question. So we first start with that conversation of what are your goals?

[00:18:49] What was your gross revenue for this current year? What are your goal gross revenue goals for next year? Oh, you don’t need that. Or you don’t know that? Oh, you probably need to go meet with someone like Steve. You need to [00:19:00] work with a coach who’s going to help you figure out those numbers. So we look at that.

[00:19:03] And then what is your average case value? How many organic leads are you getting a month? What are our goals for organic leads? So we do all of this free. And then how we create the strategy is based on those goals, then I tell my team, okay, I want you to tell me, how does this firm look online? What is their digital footprint?

[00:19:24] How are they represented in the court of Google, in the eyes of Google? And so then that’s the strategy as we work backwards from there is here’s where they are presenting. We know how they should present with Google. And then so our strategy step one is to get them up to Green Cardigan standards and Google standards.

[00:19:41] And 90 percent of our clients are not going to be there. They’re missing something. Uh, they’re, they’re just missing something on their website, their email marketing. They’re missing something. So we start building from there. It’s how do we just get you up to par? That’s the first part of the strategy.

[00:19:57] And in the second part of the strategy, we call that our monthly marketing [00:20:00] service. Once we’ve gotten them up to par, usually a client comes in, it’s like a one time project for you. It was a one time project. Hey, the call to action’s on your website. We’re not speaking to your clients. So we’re in the middle of doing that.

[00:20:11] We revised that. We, we relaunched this, we changed these things to then begin your monthly marketing. So we do the exact same thing with our clients is how do we get you up to par and then your monthly marketing strategy is just going to be depending upon your goal. So do you need email marketing? Do you need paid?

[00:20:28] It’s the most common conversation I have is I need to be doing paid marketing. Are you sure? You’ve got a thousand bucks to spend each month. That is a waste of money. Sure, you probably do need to grow into paid, but you’re a family, we work with a ton of family in the state, that’s our, our specialty. So you’re a family lawyer.

[00:20:45] Are you sure you need that? Because PayDad, what I’ve seen, it’s gonna send you a bunch of people who are shopping around and they’re kicking tires. You’re not a personal injury firm. You’re a paid ads. You’re, you’re a family law firm and you’re grossing 2 million and you’re trying to get to four. You don’t have the money to compete.

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] And I’m telling you, the paid ads are going to drown your intake team and it’s just going to waste resources. So you can see how we really, we start with their goals. We look at what, how they are in their market. And then you, you build the strategy or around all of that. And it takes a lot of education on our part.

[00:21:16] We’ve got to educate the client, but we have found that that’s turned into lifetime clients. We’ve had many clients that we’ve had since their first day with us or since we started the agency. So we found that it, we really become part of their team. We’re no longer a vendor. We become part of their team.

[00:21:31] We’re so ingrained with them and them with us.

[00:21:35] Steve Fretzin: The other thing is there’s, um, there’s the lawyer’s opinion of what their website should be from their perspective. Yeah. And they may be missing the idea of what, that, that actually isn’t that important. It’s really about what the people that are in family and, and, and PI and all these different areas of practice, what they, what they want to see, that’s going to help them feel comfortable to, to fill out a form or make a [00:22:00] call or interact in some way.

[00:22:01] And can you talk to that a bit?

[00:22:03] Ashley Robinson: Yeah, we go through a strategy or an exercise rather with all of our clients. Again, we did it with you. Is the content on the website. Okay. Great. Does the content speak to how great of a lawyer you are? I’m the best lawyer in Dallas. This, these, I’ve won these awards. Or does it speak to your client’s pain points?

[00:22:21] So in those initial calls, those three calls, initial calls to determine if we’re a good fit, I’m asking, who is your client avatar? Give me two or three of your ideal client avatars. I did a call with someone yesterday. All three client avatars were women. Um, elderly or aging women, they’re empty nesters, but they’re tired of their marriage, this is a family law attorney.

[00:22:42] I’m a business owner, I don’t want my husband or partner to get everything. Right. So, so this client, all three avatars were women. He knew he was down to, and I helped him get down to where they make, where do they live, what are their interests. So then everything is built around that, including the call to [00:23:00] actions.

[00:23:00] And so it’s, I, I very rarely have a lawyer come back at me and disagree, but that’s an exercise we take all lawyers through. I understand you think, and you’ve seen every other lawyer out there that the messaging on the website. Talks about how great you are, but that’s not it. You’re missing it. If you want to stand out and you really want to be different and you really want to hit that goal, speak to your client.

[00:23:22] Are you worried about not seeing your kid? Are you worried about losing the assets of your business that you’ve worked so hard for? Are you worried? Whatever their pain points are, that’s what we’re going to use. That’s the language we’re going to use on your website to speak to your clients. So for me, I do marketing for law firm owners.

[00:23:38] Are you tired of relying on referrals to grow your law firm? Okay, then we probably should talk. So that’s, that would be, I would say most lawyers have just been trained that that’s what their website should do is speak to how great they are. Be different, be better than that. Talk to your client.

[00:23:56] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of, of different [00:24:00] ways to, to get feedback too.

[00:24:02] Um, and you know, tracking and measuring and there’s so many agencies that take the money, do the random acts of whatever the client lawyer saying they want or what the, what they’re selling the soup of the day. And then they’re not coming back to them with any kind of regular scheduled meetings, monthly meetings, bi weekly meetings, whatever my bi monthly meetings.

[00:24:22] Yeah. To discuss the results and to because they don’t want to discuss the results I mean they they just want to keep taking the money and it’s so frustrating because That’s where you understand the value of that agency is in The numbers and the results and those regular meetings where you, where you make changes and make improvements.

[00:24:42] And, and by the way, just to, just to share in business development, it’s the same thing in the sense of I’m having all of my clients fill out a, uh, success journal where it talks about their meetings and what the conversions were to next steps, what the conversions were to introductions, to getting in front of more, you know, [00:25:00] business, and then how are they converting it?

[00:25:02] I want to see those numbers get better and better and better, and without measuring, you can’t manage. So, so yeah, so talk to that, because I know that’s a big part of what you do.

[00:25:10] Ashley Robinson: It is. I was on a call last week, and someone sent me his report that he’s currently getting from the agency he’s working with, and he’s like, I can’t understand any of this.

[00:25:19] I’m like, Hey man, I’m in marketing. I can’t understand any of this. It’s so vague. It is so incredibly vague. What are these terms mean? I don’t know. These aren’t industry standard terms. These are just terms that they’ve made up. And the wildest part to me is they never meet with their clients. They just send them the report.

[00:25:37] So what we do is we, we, we meet with our clients every other month. And so we’re going over the report. We, we send it each month and then each month we’re going to send some sort of detailed about some particular point in it. But then you’re just constantly talking to someone on, on your team who’s helping you from our side, our account team, you’re in constant communication.

[00:25:55] So it is our job to Educate our clients or [00:26:00] else that relationship will come in and they’ll come out of your agency. And again, that is just not the structure of our agency. There are many agency who’s built for a client who comes in by the time they realize it’s not working. They’ve already fired you and that’s their structure.

[00:26:12] That’s just not how we work. So it is really important to us that we take time to educate our clients as much as possible on what the numbers mean. Why is this important? And then we’re asking questions. We see this is down. Why is that? We know it’s January. It’s divorce season. Divorce is ramping back up.

[00:26:31] People have got their tax dollars. They’re getting ready to divorce. They didn’t want to get a divorce during the holidays. And so we’re having these planning conversations and these strategy sessions of looking at what we’re doing now, but then also what’s coming next quarter. Again, in divorce, that’s the easiest example.

[00:26:45] It’s divorce season. It’s the beginning of the year. Okay, we’re in the summer. Adoptions are going to go up. So we’re having those conversations again. We’re part of the team and that is a frustration. I hear often of like, I’m just sending money. I don’t know where it’s going. Yeah,

[00:26:59] Steve Fretzin: [00:27:00] and I’ve been down that path so many times.

[00:27:01] I mean, I goof about a guy I worked with years ago who did my website. I paid him like 20 grand. Most I’ve ever invested at the time on a website. And yeah, I don’t know where it’s going. It was when it was done, you know, everything about it was wrong, the way that time it took to get done. I’m not going to complain about it.

[00:27:19] I just want to, I want the punchline, which is at the end of it, I said, you know, Mike or whatever his name was, what was the one thing I asked you at the beginning that I wanted my website to do? And he said, you wanted it to convert. And I said, what’s the one problem with the website you’ve created? He goes, this isn’t going to convert.

[00:27:31] And I went, can I have my 20, 000 back? He goes, no. I know. And that was, it didn’t, that was the abbreviated version of that conversation. But the frustration on me was, was so beyond, I felt so swindled and so betrayed it was, it was, and I, and I know there’s a lot of lawyers out there that just don’t trust the people they work with.

[00:27:52] And so that’s why it’s so important not to find like who’s reaching out to you proactively through LinkedIn and trying to sell you stuff. I think it’s more about [00:28:00] who can you get. From a friend that’s, you know, like when your name comes up, Ashley is from my, from clients and people I know you’re the best, Ashley’s the best, your team’s the best, like that’s where you want to find an agency, not from who is reaching out to you and trying to sell you.

[00:28:16] Ashley Robinson: Yeah, you look at their process, look at their process, because I mean, that is such a common, I hate that you went through that. I know we’ve talked about that. Um, and it’s just so common, it’s so common to hear that, or, um, you know, I’m going to make the website, this is really getting in the weeds, but we do a lot of websites, we build a lot of websites, and so building a website that’s incredibly custom coded and difficult to edit.

[00:28:43] Uh, that is going to create a disaster. Look, you’re not a 100 million e commerce platform. You do not need a custom coded website. I’m not saying you need a templatized website. Everything we do, every website we build looks very different from the other, but that’s truly having the client’s best [00:29:00] interest in mind.

[00:29:01] And ask those questions, like, how will this website work in five years? Will it be easy to edit and change? Am I going to grow with this website or is it going to be difficult? Am I going to always have to hire you? I don’t know what kind of service you’re going to provide.

[00:29:15] Steve Fretzin: You

[00:29:15] Ashley Robinson: know, we talk a lot about, do I own my hosting?

[00:29:17] Do I own the content of my website? There are many players in this industry. Um, and we all know who they are. If you, if you do any type of marketing that they lock you into a contract and they own your website, we rebuild websites. Every month we’re rebuilding a website for that big player in the industry because they own your website and they’ve locked it under key.

[00:29:37] That’s just not a, that’s not a nice thing to do. So if it, if it smells weird, um, at the beginning relationship, it’s not going to end well.

[00:29:46] Steve Fretzin: And again, I, I like, I like the idea that, People talk to successful lawyers, they know that have strong websites or talk to, you know, just really consider, you know, you, you, you want to work with someone you can trust and [00:30:00] someone that really knows their, their ins and outs of, of your needs.

[00:30:02] Because just because someone’s an SEO expert doesn’t make them a website building, you know, they just put together websites so they can get the SEO business or the pay per click business or whatever. So. Ashley, awesome, awesome, awesome. I want to wrap things up with a couple things. One is your game changing book, which is Buy Back Your Time, which sounds like we kind of, you know, we came full circle from the beginning of, uh, Intentional Days Create a Life on Purpose.

[00:30:26] So talk to us a little bit about that, about that book.

[00:30:30] Ashley Robinson: Ash, it is such a phenomenal book. I’ve just finished it for the second time. I’ve given it away probably three or four times. Yeah. When you were talking earlier, I was thinking about it. It is just such a great book to help you get in the mindset of if you were trying to grow your business, grow your law firm, uh, grow your marketing agency, whatever it may be, you cannot stay in the weeds.

[00:30:49] And we all started, most of us are accidental owners, accidental business owners, accidental law firm owners, which means you’re in the weeds. You’re working in the [00:31:00] business. Well, if you’re trying to grow, I can blanket statement this by saying, if you’re trying to grow, you can’t stay in the weeds, but once you’ve entrenched yourself in the weeds, meaning in the weeds, I was actually doing the SEO, I was actually building the websites, I was doing the social media posts, you don’t want me doing that, I’ve got much better, smarter, equipped people to do that, I run the business now, I manage the business, the managed relationship, but you have to learn that skill, it is not A natural skill.

[00:31:28] So that book helps you learn what you need to do, what you need to hire, what you’re looking for. So you can grow your way out of being in the business versus in it every day. Um, and be outgrowing relationships. Whatever it is that you enjoy so it helps you step by step It lays out a plan for you on how to get out of that day to day And many of our law firm owners are trying to get out of the day to day They want to stop practicing law and they just want to manage the law firm.

[00:31:55] So I could not recommend it enough

[00:31:58] Steve Fretzin: interesting [00:32:00] segue to Thanking our wonderful sponsors who do exactly what that book says to do so get staffed up Right, which I use and love and brett trembley. Thank you and And I have a full time VA that’s handling all of the things that aren’t my best use of time, aren’t my best skill sets.

[00:32:17] I’m not going to edit a video the same way Sergio is going to edit a video. People that see my videos on social think they’re amazing, and they are. Okay, so get staffed up. And then of course, Laumatic. So now what we’re doing is we’re automating pipeline. We’re automating CRM, automating marketing, automating contracts, things like that.

[00:32:33] And it attaches to the practice management systems that you already have. So that’s a big part of how you buy your time back is through automation and delegation and things like that. And then of course we need to have great marketing. And so as our third sponsor, um, green cardigan marketing, Ashley, do you want to just share 30 seconds a minute about, about, you know, and you’ve kind of been talking this whole time about how you do things, but anything else you want to share?

[00:32:55] Ashley Robinson: I would just say, you know, if you’re looking to grow. Or, you know, what you’re doing now, [00:33:00] maybe you’re not looking to grow in terms of number of leads, but you’re looking to grow into a better quality lead, then we should have a conversation. It could be your website needs to be worked on. It could be a number of things, but let’s have a conversation.

[00:33:11] And it’s going to be one of those two things. Um, I need to grow the volume of leads. To make more money or I’m good with the volume, but I just need better quality leads. Then we certainly should have a conversation because we can help you out.

[00:33:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Bigger fish, bigger, bigger, bigger dollars, uh, more challenging, complex work.

[00:33:26] A lot of lawyers are looking for that and getting out of, out of the gutter work, which, um, which again, you know, there, there’s a need for that, but it’s some, some people are, you know, 10 years in, they don’t want to be working with the lower end, you know, clients. Ashley, thank you so much. Not only for, for, you know, building out my website and being my partner and being a great friend, um, but coming on the show and just sharing your wisdom.

[00:33:47] And if people want to get in touch with you, what’s the best route.

[00:33:50] Ashley Robinson: Yeah. Green cardigan marketing. com is our website. I’m very active on LinkedIn. So Ashley Robinson, Ashley Robinson, GCM. I don’t know. Search for me. One of [00:34:00] those anything to do with green cardigan marketing and you’ll find me. I’m pretty active on all social accounts, but thanks for having me, Steve.

[00:34:06] I really enjoy talking to you. I always learn from you. Um, you, you’ve got a great way of, of how you organize your business and then how you organize your law firms. Um, So I always enjoy listening to you talk. You always give me something. I wear on many different calls together throughout the month. So thanks for having me

[00:34:22] Steve Fretzin: talking to you.

[00:34:23] Well, listen, I, the feeling is mutual, a big love fest here on, uh, be that lawyer today, everybody, which is always good. Um, And thank you again for being a listener if you’re enjoying the show and you’re listening twice a week or whatever you can handle Don’t be shy about giving us a kind review. I’m telling other lawyers about it Um, if it’s helping you then it could be helping others and we’re all about paying it forward and helping you to be that lawyer Someone who’s confident organized and a skilled rainmaker.

[00:34:49] Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well And as you know, we will talk again real soon.

[00:34:57] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that [00:35:00] Lawyer life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.