BE THAT LAWYER LIVE Coaches Corner Part 2

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Deb Knupp, Alay Yajnik, and Gary Johnson discuss:

  • Strategies to build a network when you’re away from the city.
  • LinkedIn and being a thought leader.
  • Getting out of the net of the friend zone.
  • Making the pitch and getting the sale.

Key Takeaways:

  • Staying in touch with people is all about authentic reasons. Even from a distance, invite people, introduce people, be involved, and share your insights.
  • Create valuable content that is both educational and inspirational. When you do that, people will trust you more.
  • When someone hasn’t responded back to you, it may not be you. It is often that they are busy. Follow up often. It is typically 5-7 touches to get business.
  • If you’re going to be giving somebody a proposal, schedule a conversation to go through the proposal. Most people need context and information to go with the number on the price tag.

“Have the mindset that sales is an act of service. It is when you’re committed to building authentic relationships, and you can suspend self-interest long enough to solve the problem that should be solved, not just the one you get billed for. Give before get – it will make a huge, huge difference.” —  Deb Knupp

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing:


Practice Panther:

Connect with Deb Knupp:  


Email: [email protected]


Connect with Alay Yajnik:



Email: [email protected]


Connect with Gary Johnson:  




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Narrator, Deb Knupp, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Gregory Eisenberg


Deb Knupp  [00:00]

I just want to encourage people think about the mindset that sales is an act of service is when you’re committed to building authentic relationships like actually care about people. And you can suspend self interest long enough to solve the problem that should be solved not just go and get built, you get to build for so have that mindset of service. Give before gets it will make huge, huge difference.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve, Brett said


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day. Today. I am Steve frets and the host. This is part two of be that lawyer Coach’s Corner, where we answer lawyers toughest challenges, frustrations, concerns, or as a relates to growing a successful law practice. And I’ve got an amazing panel. I’ve got amazing sponsors. We are in a really really good position today to help you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Before we go any further, I just want to mention, if you haven’t heard the podcast before, it’s your first time, please check out previous episodes, we’ve had all three of these folks on the show. They’re all amazing. And also, please be so kind as to tell people about it and give us a kind review that I know will help just to get the expansion of how the show gets into the ears of other attorneys who are interested in business development. What percentage is that? I don’t know, Les, what percent of that just I’m going to skip ahead here. And we’re going to cut back a lay what percent of attorneys do you think are actively interested in business development? Like you actually want like learning it and wanting to go out and do it? What percent out of 100%?



Off the 10? Gary, I was gonna I was thinking 10 to 15 and 15. Deb,


Deb Knupp  [02:00]

I would say the data actually tells us there’s actually a stat on this, if you think about what classic business development looks like, in the sense of like that networker really wants to, quote, get out there. It’s 20%


Steve Fretzin  [02:10]

or 20%. Okay, I feel like it’s more now than it was five years ago or certainly, Deb, when you got into this before any of us. It was very, very low. I think it was more like, Hey, we’re gonna push this on you, whether you like it or not. And now we actually have people that are coming to us saying, hey, I need this. I want this. So let me take a step back and just take a moment to thank the sponsors. We’re gonna start with my friend Stephanie from money, Penny.


Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [02:32]

I have very well Nice to see you all. Stefan Jones for money Penny. We’re a proud partner of Steve Fretts. In so many, many of the phone swing and live checks but giving law firms like yours amazing people and technology to ensure you’re capturing every opportunity and maximizing like your time whilst always delivering an exceptional service. And it’s really simple. We have access to your employees and via platforms such as Microsoft Teams are dedicated Moneypenny receptionist can either transfer calls to cell phones that office or to wherever works for you. And we can answer your inbound calls all the time, or just when your in house teams are busy, the choice is yours. We can do exactly the same for your web chats as well. So there’s actually a two week free trial for anybody that’s on this webinar today. And if you’d like to get in touch to hear more, please contact me on svj at money


Steve Fretzin  [03:25]

We’ve got money, Penny, who’s helping you with that live reception? Taking that reception? grill off your back. And they’re also on websites like mine where they can just do live chat and interact with people. Not a robot. It’s money, Penny, by the way, you can steal that stuff. I just gave you a home run right there with that tagline. Thank you very much. All right. That’s what I do. All right. And then we got a lay. Wait, whoa. Oh, we got no, I’m saying we’ve got Holy mackerel. I’m fried brains. I’m happy to sponsor your podcast. And thanks a lot. Alright, we’ll talk numbers after toe we’ll start right we got Matt who is with practice Panther helping you get organized with how you manage your law firm. Tell us all about practice Panther, the wonderful practice management service. Thank you, Steve. Hello, everyone. My name is Matt. I’m the Head of Sales here at PracticePanther. I’ve been at PracticePanther. Since its start, and I’ve seen us grow from a small company to one of the largest case management software’s in the world for small to medium sized law firms. Some of our more popular features include texting clients, sending documents for signature directly within the system, or ROI tracking for your marketing campaigns using our custom reporting, or automated document templates for the purpose of contracts are accepting online payments and a lot more. We offer completely free training, free support free onboarding, and a free data migration from your previous systems into your practice Panther software. We pride ourselves on our commitment to growth and our stellar personal customer service. If anyone is interested in learning more about our system, feel free to check Get out at practice or email me directly to Matt at practice All right, Matt, thank you. Then of course, we’ve got Greg with legal ease helping be your law firm CMO, where they’re just taking all that off your back as well.


Gregory Eisenberg  [05:15]

Hey there, Steve. Hey, everyone. Thanks for having us. So my name is Greg Eisenberg. I’m the co founder of legalese marketing. And we’re really here to serve as your chief automations Officer and Chief Marketing Officer at a fractional monthly level, you might know what cmo services are typically like, but a lot of people don’t know what C A O services are like. There are so many cool technological pieces out there just like Matt’s program, that you need to make news for your firm and you needed to work with other programs and needed to be as optimal as possible. So we are almost that Chief automations officer that your law firm needs, where we can work with your team each month, and spend time building out processes building out automations and connecting technology together to work for your firm, and that it works with your marketing efforts as well. So if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at legalese And we’re here to help.


Steve Fretzin  [06:11]

Yeah, thanks, Greg. And it’s time to get into our panel who you’ve heard just briefly with. And let’s just start at the top like we did in the first show. And, and let’s start with my friend Deb. With growth play, Debbie want to just introduce yourself real quick.


Deb Knupp  [06:24]

Yeah, well, I’ve had great pleasure Steve for more than 20 years teaching lawyers how to sell. And Griff plays expertise is really in the space of working with Doer sellers, so people who have to build work and also have the added responsibility to market and sell work. And we do training and coaching principally around client experience, revenue generation and the talent experience.


Steve Fretzin  [06:46]

There antastic I love it. Let’s go to a les with law firm success group.



He thank you so much for having me on. Be that lawyer really excited to be here. My name is Alejandra. I’m the co founder of law firm success group. Many lawyers work too hard for too little. And they’re more stressed out than other professionals. And the thing is, it doesn’t have to be that way. Because if you run a firm like a really good business, your income goes up, your quality of life goes up, you’re able to take a two week vacation. And that’s we do with the small law firms across the country. We help them with strategy and with time management, systems and process marketing and business development and of course, hiring and people management thinks from now on Steve. Yeah, sure isn’t


Steve Fretzin  [07:26]

just easier to wing it though.



All right, think is more interesting. So tomorrow,


Steve Fretzin  [07:33]

okay. Yeah, if you want to want to jump right into the insane, insane asylum, asylum. All right, let’s go to Gary Johnson, G. J to marketing consultants. What’s up, Gary?



Speaking of insane asylum, Derek Johnson, he marks giving. We help attorneys, increase their contents, increase the revenue, and decrease the amount of time that they spend on business development and marketing by customizing specific strategy that will help them with all three of those, and when he actually show them how to do it as well. And I love working with attorneys. They’re probably the best people out there. As long as they’re good people.


Steve Fretzin  [08:12]

You know what I think what’s nice, and you guys tell me if I’m wrong. I think that it’s interesting. The attorneys that are interested in business development, tend to be the nicest people. Well, why? Well, because if they’re coachable, they’re open minded, and they’re, you know, ambitious. Generally, those aren’t the ego maniacal, crazy, you know, bad people that are in the industry. I think that’s what makes it very, so much more palatable for us to work in this industry, because we’re working with I think the best people. You guys agree with that? Yep, totally. Anybody want to argue with that? You’re not gonna look so hot in the show. Okay. It’s like saying, Hey, you all, we weren’t the worst people. Alright, so I’ve got some great questions coming out on the chat. Thank you all so much. We’ve got a live audience here today, asking their toughest questions to me, and a lei and Gary and Deb so that we can get you the answers you’re looking for. And I just am so appreciative for you, all of you being here today and in sharing your wisdom. And, you know, yes, we’re all billable. So we’re all going to, we’re given a lot of free consulting today. But again, if you’re serious about growing your law, practice, consider a coach consider some accompany coach, someone that can help you actually cut through all the winging it hamster on a treadmill or wheel, whatever it is, like, there are plans and processes and systems and things that you can do that are going to get you there much faster. And that’s what we all do. So we’re gonna start off with a question by Mike that was generated during our last session, but we’re gonna bring it up now. And he’s someone that happens to live like maybe like, you’re gonna be Devere you are with the way far away from the city, you know, your country girl. And you still want to network and develop business. But how do you do that when you’re not around all the people that can be your your buyer? So the question is strategies to build a network when you’re not necessarily near a large group of people. So Dan, why don’t we just start with you and we’ll work around the horn there.


Deb Knupp  [09:58]

I think there’s really at two Things to consider. And Mike, it’s great to have you on the show today, I will say this that when you look at the segmentation of what’s an A what to be what’s a sea level connection. And a level connection is somebody usually would spend up for two hours up to two days with. So you really have a priority focus in placement. And we highly recommend that if you’re going to be a distance from somebody, it’s really that in person interaction that you want to prioritize, and generally within a two to four times a year of having a quality relationship exchange, in that two hours to two days range can go a long way to then allow you to supplement with the touch points and the follow on and then in between stages. We think a B level connection is somebody that you’d spend 30 minutes to an hour with, usually that somebody that’s if you eat with an A, you probably drink with a B. And very often that face to face is good as a part of a wraparound, but having scheduled coffee or a scheduled phone call can give it a sense of a touch point. Never underestimate when you schedule something with someone, especially now in a post COVID It still feels like an actual face to face interaction. So it’s the consciousness of scheduling that can make a big difference. And then with a C level context, I just urge you to know that keeping them as a part of your outgoing content and automation plan, giving them the benefit of those wisdom points, those insights that may then trigger them to raise their hand for an interest, I think those things can be really powerful. And then one other thing I’ll add in a really important considerations like staying in touch with people is really about authentic reasons. And we need to know there’s a fine line between stalking people and staying in touch. And one of the best ways to keep connected is to make sure that you have a great inventory and ends that your audience would find valuable. And even if you’ve got the distance, invite them to something so the end of an invitation, can you invite them to something which may be educational, or again, invite them to that quality face to face interaction with some predictive planful cadence. That’s a powerful end of invitations. Secondly, kaymak introductions, I think when you’ve got a distance, but you can still be a facilitator and a connector, introducing your key prospects or clients to people that they actually want to meet. There’s power in that and you get the value. And then the last is the end of insight sharing. And I think with distance content and bringing really high value, quality stories, results, best practices, tools, these are the kinds of things that you can share as an insight. And giving people value even if you’re not physically in their proximity to the three ends. And the A B’s and C’s, that’s meant to cancel points.


Steve Fretzin  [12:27]

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So yeah, Dad, you’ve got all the cool, like ways of saying things. That’s really brilliant. I love that. Let’s go to Gary.



So to add on it, because I couldn’t agree with more with tab. Because she’s she’s writing, especially in regards to the introduction. But one of the things that I would highly recommend is to go deep with your, your network. And you don’t need a lot of people, you are charging a lot of money for your services, and rightfully so, therefore, you don’t want a big net, you want a deep net. And so get to know these people extremely well. Because when you do get to know them really well, you will then be able to like what that was saying, you will be able to introduce them to the right people, you will be able to give them that relevant information that they have. And you’ll also be able to share compassion with them. If they have a birthday, they have a death in the family, they have an anniversary, those are good key touch points to keep that that relationship strong, really strong. The other thing is, I would ask them a question that most people don’t ask, which is, Hey, Steve, you know, I feel sheepish? Because I don’t know enough about your business. Tell me who your target market is only who you get a lot of referrals from, because I want to be able to connect you with the right people and be able to refer business into you. But we don’t ask that question enough. And it’s, it’s it when people ask me, I’m like, Oh, God, this is great, you know, they’d have that same reaction as well. But you got to get to know them, you got to get to know them really, really well.


Steve Fretzin  [14:01]

And I think the, you know, the world has changed so much, especially in the last couple of years with a pandemic that you know, if you weren’t local to a networking event or a few you know, places you could go and have lunches every day things you can you know, you were in a really a great place and now it’s all based I have people in my neighborhood I’m zooming with it’s like how lazy can we be, but it’s like that’s that’s how it’s gotten with our time. And we want to be efficient and there’s just so many people you can meet. I think also just to add and then we’ll go to a lay I mean when I’m hopefully I’m going to not stealing your thunder here away. But you know, LinkedIn also is another way that was what you’re gonna say. Now, yeah. I’m that kind of on that kind of jerk. But it’s you are Yes. But also LinkedIn has really made the world much smaller and so the idea that you can network that you can find business that you can, you know, really get to know people very well through LinkedIn and then through zoom, it’s really not like an issue like it used to be Mike on that. On that particular point I like,



it totally is even thank you for bringing up LinkedIn, because it’s an incredibly underutilized platform for business development. For attorneys, you don’t need to spend any money to leverage LinkedIn very effectively for business development. And there’s a lot of great content out there and how to do that in checked out like LinkedIn,, and a bunch of other sites. But when you’re doing that, whether it’s LinkedIn, or some other platform, or even in your email, one thing I would encourage you to do, and this maybe counterintuitive for many of you to position yourself as a thought leader, because when you do that, when you really can showcase and you’ve got a bit of a swagger. And you’re really positioned as I’m the expert in this field, that’s going to attract your target market to you, no matter where you are. And that’s what you were where we really want to get to. So that idea of positioning yourself as an authority, you can work with Debbie can work with Steve, you can work with Gary, they can show you how to do that is incredibly powerful on social media, or whenever you’re trying to build relationships at distance.


Steve Fretzin  [16:03]

Yeah, I mean, that might be a segue to talking about thought leadership, if we want to just roll that over. But I think one of the problems that lawyers have is that they’re known because of their firm name. They’re not known because of their name. And I think it’s also hard for people to get into a groove of producing content and helpful things that are going to separate them from the path. So let’s just let’s just take a minute on that, because I think this segue would happen naturally, Gary, talk about like, what you’re recommending to lawyers to not just focus on just straight up networking and business development, but also how to develop themselves as a thought leader. Yeah, I



mean, their thought leadership is all about personal branding, people will use your services based on what is up in your head. And you do want to create valuable content that is educational and inspirational. Because when you do that, people will trust you more, as opposed to Hey, look at me, I just got a big fat check for one of my clients, I want another one, or I got super lawyer or stupid way of best lawyer top lawyer. Yep. It’s all that’s all self promotional stuff, as opposed to well, let me share what’s up here, because again, they’re paying you a lot of money, they’re not going to do that, unless they know that what’s up here can actually help them out. And here’s the other best part about this on LinkedIn. Your referral sources will see this. And then they will go whoa, oh, my god, Elena, is this this, this this lesson? It makes it so much easier for me to then refer somebody over to him? Because I know the genius that he has. So makes it easy. I’m like, Yeah, I’m comfortable with it. Even if I’ve never even met our way before. It doesn’t make a difference. Because of that thought leadership. Yeah, fantastic. Deb.


Deb Knupp  [17:49]

I think what Gary brings up is so critical, this idea of being a content creator, and I love that it’s educational, and inspirational. There’s a great science test on how buyers actually make buying decisions. People actually study buying and selling. And it’s paradoxical, because human beings buy based on emotion. And then we justify rationally unless you’ve ever been into a Costco intending to buy paper towels, and came home with tennis rackets. And you cannot figure out how that happened. It is about that connection, that we feel something that then makes us want to understand something. But in addition to being a content creator, or a thought leader, as a creator, let me tell you, there are two other roles that I want to highly encourage, you can be a content aggregator, which means you have an ability to summarize lots of smart people’s points of view, into a cogent point of view. And being an aggregator, of course, giving sighted recognition for that original creators is key that that is so valuable to create that summary point of view, even though the authors may have been multiple thought leaders from a variety of different perspectives. And I’ll tell you one of the greatest things. And I want to go back to lay your point on LinkedIn. I think being a commentator is not just about liking and sharing, you can actually up your game in thought leadership and credentials when not only do you say this was a great article that Gary put together, and there’s one or two additional things I would add, or here’s why, if you’re in this situation, this is the right thing for you to read. All of a sudden now my brand and thought leadership reputation is imputed by connecting myself to a thought leader like Gary. So there’s some halo effect that can happen. And LinkedIn is one of the easiest and in no cost ways to make that visible in your own efforts.


Steve Fretzin  [19:30]

And don’t be overwhelmed by the thought of posting on LinkedIn and everything has to be perfect. And you have to do it every day. I mean, I think there’s ways to do it slow and steady over time where you can build up sort of like a rhythm to it, versus you know, doing nothing or trying to do everything all at once, which isn’t gonna come out great. La What’s your two cents on thought leadership?



Why? These are all great points. I’m so glad we’re talking about this topic. One of the big issues that my clients run into when we start talking about thought leadership is they get really concerned about But what if I picked the wrong area to become a thought leader in? I don’t really know if I want to commit to that right now. And I don’t know if I’m good enough. And you know, all these concerns start to come up. So why don’t address some of those right now. Number one, as far as picking the right area of thought, leadership, here’s the cool thing. You can change it. So if you do it, and you decide, you know, you’re three months, and you’re six months in, and you don’t want to be doing it anymore, you want to do something else change it, it’s no problem. The second thing is that it’s actually easier than ever before to become recognized as a thought leader. Now, it is, it’s so much easier if you commit to it. And you focus on doing the marketing with Steve and Gary and Deb. Over time, within a year or less, you can really establish yourself as a legitimate thought leader in your area of expertise. And that’s going to do a world of good for your business.


Steve Fretzin  [20:55]

And I’m gonna go back to something Gary said in the first episode, which by the way, this is part two of the two part series, be that lawyer live Coach’s Corner. If you missed the last episode, go back and listen, I think you’re gonna want to hear that we covered a lot of ground. But you know, the idea that you can repurpose things. So if you want to be a thought leader in medical marijuana, that’s great. Write an article, that article doesn’t just sit on your firm’s website, right that that article needs to be published in a, in an actual real publication, and needs to go into social media, by the way, you gave 10 tips on how to, you know, you know, distribute weed or whatever it might be okay, great. You know, first of all, might not I’ll give you my number after the show that Ken is, you know, you can break that up into 10 posts, you can do a video where you say, Hey, I’m giving you I want to tell you here’s, you know, 30 seconds on, you know, the, you know, the front end, I’m going to do 1030 seconds, just give a quick example, I saw the book behind me, legal business development isn’t rocket science is 51 chapters, 52 chapters, we’ll say, hypothetically, okay. Well, I figured out, you know, what, I can do a chapter giveaway every week as a social media post, and I’ve been giving it away, I think I’m up on chapter 29, or 30. So I’m just repurposing it, it just did, I did a 32nd video, and I did like 25 in a row, and then another 27 in a row, the whole thing took me no time at all. And now I’ve got all this content to give away again, for the purpose of thought leadership. And by the way, educating people lawyers on, you know, the various different chapters and best practices in the field. So really consider that, you know, business development and marketing and thought leadership are all kind of on the same, you know, mountain that you’re heading up. And when you get, you know, you just want to keep, you know, sticking with not doing everything, but doing the things that to Deb’s point where you have passion, where you have interest, where it makes you brings you joy, and focus on those, and I think you can be really successful at getting to that tip top of the mountain of the of the fall leadership. Any final thoughts on this before we move on? Guys are good. All right. So I’ve got another one. This one I love. This one I love and I’ve been talking. This one in particular for women, I’m not just saying that, you know, I’m not going to mansplain anything, because I don’t want to get caught on the datum, and that the guys, but many women and men to find themselves in a social relationship. And they think there’s business there because their best friend is a GC, their cousin is a CEO, and they find themselves in the quote unquote, and I’m doing the air quotes friendzone. Okay, the question that we have is, how the heck do I get out of the friendzone? And actually convert that friend into a client? All right, so Dad, you’re nodding so hard, you’re shaking my screen. So


Deb Knupp  [23:37]

you’re gonna get this question. But


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

first off, let’s go.


Deb Knupp  [23:40]

Okay, quickly, I will tell you right now, when you’re caught in the friendzone, don’t be surprised that the person that you’re friends with has absolutely no recollection or staining what you do for a living, notwithstanding you went to law school together, you probably practice together their alumni of your firm, right? There’s a certain sense that once we get into the zone of friendship, we often lose sight of the business. So it’s critical and important. When your friend, the person who could buy something from you says What’s up or what’s new, please don’t fall into the trap of saying that much same old same will event and dream or crazy busy, because anytime you respond to that, with that negative headline message, it actually unwittingly plants this doubt, and it also creates a little bit of the Heisman effect and who is a good friend would ever give you something when you’re drowning in work, just to put your head under the water, it is not going to happen. So a big piece of this is to always have a positive pithy headline of something really cool and really interesting. You’re doing your work. Second thing, declare your desire, friend, I really respect and value our friendship and my dream, my goal my desire, would be to find if there’s any way that I could be helpful to you professionally. If you were me, what would you do? Having a dream out loud kind of conversation, alerting the person that you value them declaring your desire and that dream and then seeking their advice can be critical. And then lastly, there are four emotions that need to happen in order go for Friends to business, somebody has ever known concern. They don’t have an own concern. They need to have their curiosity triggered, say something really cool. And they go, Hmm, I didn’t know you did that. Thirdly, competence. Everyone has a healthy dose of cya. How can you bring value to bring more competence? And lastly, say really nice things about the people you work with, say really lovely thinks about how much you love working with your clients, I promise you, your friend is gonna want to have the connection. So you’ve got concern, curiosity, competence connection for seeds to get out of the friendzone. That’s what I’ve got pre season Bucha I was shaking my head so violent.


Steve Fretzin  [25:32]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. But amazing answer. I mean, that is question that has haunted attorneys for you know, as long as they’ve been lawyers. So, Gary, any anything to add



to that? No, I, the only thing that I would add to a devastating is having a conversation about their business, looking for the opportunity to be able to switch it in there. Because there’s so many times that we don’t listen for the cues. When you’re listening for the kids and you hear that you’re talking about their life, about their business. And all sudden you see an opportunity where you can help them with that. That’s when you can put yourself into and say, Hey, do you want help with that? You just say, yeah, you want me to help me with that? And then they usually goes to Well, it depends. That type of topic at least you’re having to make calls. Yeah. Awesome. Anna Leigh.



Having dead in Gary hitted? Absolutely. out of the park. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [26:31]

right on the money. I had an IP attorney who is attending conferences and meeting with the top GCS of all the major corporations. And guess what she did a year after year after year, and where was she in the friendzone. And so it was really frustrating. And so yeah, we had to talk about the kinds of strategies you just brought up to help, you know, get her over the finish line as it relates to how to convert those over to conversations about her practice, or about working together, things like that. Hi, guys, we’re gonna wrap up with one final question, this segment of Be that lawyer live. We’ve got it, I apologize. We’re going over a time a little bit, but we’ll you know, we’ll do the best we can hear this one relates to successful pitching. And so the question came in that, you know, I’m making some pitches, and they’re asking for my decks, and they’re asking for pricing, and they’re asking for all this stuff. And then there’s crickets, right. So making the pitch trying to get the business and they have problems they have needs, we solve them exactly. To the degree that you know, that we would be a good fit. But now it’s not moving forward. So I’ll lay Why don’t you jump in first on this and and give us your two cents on why that’s why that’s not only a challenge, but But what are some ideas to overcome it?



Sure. So the maybe the first thing to think about is it might not be you might not have anything to do with you. But the person may just be really, really busy. And so oftentimes, you know, following up multiple times, just to get a sense for what’s going on is really, really important. We tend to get inside our heads, sometimes we think that oh my gosh, maybe they’ll let the proposal or maybe they’ll like me, or maybe they heard something bad about me. And maybe they don’t want to do this anymore. And oftentimes, the simplest explanation is they just got really, really busy. So follow up often, right? Five to seven touches, typically, to get business and remember that and just keep following up. Yep. Very good, Gary.



Yeah, to add on to what Elena says, when you are about to give them the proposal. Ask them for a favor. Ask them to say yes, for now. But don’t go smack. The dummy. Yes, dummy? No. And then don’t ghost me. And then once they say, Oh, absolutely. I will for sure do that. They’re great. How long until you probably will make the decision. And then if they say it’s going to be two weeks going, right? If I haven’t heard from you in two weeks, I promise I will contact you. And the key word there is broadcast. Because when you are following up, a lot of people are like, well, I don’t want to sound desperate. You follow up saying, Hey, Steve, I promised I was going to call you. And you also promised me that you weren’t going to ghost Azure.


Steve Fretzin  [29:08]

And then tip one and tip their house. I think that’s the next thing.



Exactly. or eggs or eggs. Okay, but then you don’t feel like oh, God, I’m just I’m overburdening them. And also, they gave you the commitment. And they’re going to remember that they’re not going to give. Yeah, awesome. Deb.


Deb Knupp  [29:25]

I would say before you end up pitch, make sure that you always leave with a definitive next step, which is a timebox. Next step that is in your corner to LA and Gary’s point of view. If you get that permission up front that you’re going to be touching base. If we haven’t connected in the two weeks, I’ll plan to reach out to you. I think that’s a critical best practice. Secondly, pricing is often the reason that people get a little gun shy, because they don’t have the narration that goes with it. So we make a strong point that if you’re going to be giving someone a proposal, schedule a conversation with them to walk them through a proposal, don’t send a proposal, and then hope so actually before never share pricing. As somebody that you haven’t verbally gotten a commitment to in the in the meeting, and then the proposal really should just be the summary of what you’ve already agreed to, because that often is the the dead space. And the last but not least have an end. If for some reason this opportunity doesn’t advance or they aren’t responding, or they’re just simply busy, find another end, either an invitation to something, you could bring them into them, either information or insights that you can share that we can be value adding to the conversations or the Papa’s possibility of making an introduction. So you look for another authentic reason while you’re in the in between space. And in some cases, you begin to start a new cell cycle again.


Steve Fretzin  [30:37]

It’s up how about the frets in way? Which is, uh, yeah, that’s right, Gary, I said it, right. You just deal with that? Alright, sales, free selling. This is my first book. And this is all about how we need to stop pitching, presenting, giving free advice, free consulting, falling into the buyers trap of giving them everything and getting nothing and then chasing after ghosts. We want to follow a methodology that is relationship driven that involves questions and qualifying and understanding and empathy and walk a buyer through a buying decision. So it’s their idea of what’s next is their idea of what they need to see hear experience in the pitch. And then there’s commitments that need to be agreed to and follow through with qualifying the whole time. You could check that out on Amazon or if you want to just email me, I’ll send you a free copy of that the ebook. You guys this has been so awesome. I love having you on the show. I love that you guys are willing to come here and share your wisdom. You’re listening to this either live or you are on the podcast listening. You should be very grateful because this is this. These are just gems after gems after gems being given to you. And a lei and Deb and Gary, I want to thank you guys so much for being my friends for being on the show for taking your valuable time and helping all these people to be that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Okay, any final words delay?



Thank you so much for having me on the show. This was awesome. Looking forward to doing it again.


Steve Fretzin  [32:03]

Yeah, yeah, we’ll have you back soon. I think we may even have you scheduled, Gary.



No, thank you, Steven.



We’re not friends.


Steve Fretzin  [32:10]

Now. We’re not having you back. Okay, and Dev.


Deb Knupp  [32:13]

I just want to encourage people think about the mindset that sales is an act of service is when you’re committed to building authentic relationships, like actually care about people. And you can suspend self interest long enough to solve the problem that should be solved, not stolen, get built, you get to bill for so have that mindset of service, give before gets it will make a huge, huge difference.


Steve Fretzin  [32:32]

I think someone’s head just exploded here. And that that has to concise and clear and clean. I love it. So again, everybody, thank you so much. Again, if you liked the show, and you’re enjoying it, please give us positive review. You’re going to be getting a survey. If you’re here live with us today, just to give us some feedback. I’d appreciate that. In response to that. I will send you as many books as you want for in the eBook version. Thank you all so much. Be that lawyer competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care of the safety well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [33:04]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes