What separates lawyers who struggle from those who thrive? In this special Part 2 of Be That Lawyer Live, you’ll discover how our guests integrate authenticity, focus, and thought leadership into their daily practice to create long-term growth. You’ll hear how staying true to yourself, choosing opportunities wisely, and turning passions into professional strengths can open unexpected doors. This is not about chasing quick wins—it’s about building a practice that’s sustainable, rewarding, and deeply connected. Lean in, because what you’ll hear today will challenge how you see your career and your future.
In this episode, Steve, Tina, John, and Leslee discuss:
- The importance of authenticity in building and sustaining client relationships
- Balancing personal life, career demands, and business development commitments
- Creative strategies for leveraging events, panels, and thought leadership
- Maintaining consistency and momentum in rainmaking efforts over the long term
Key Takeaways:
- Sharing authentic parts of who you are—whether it’s your passions, personal stories, or even hobbies—creates deeper connections with clients and colleagues, making business development feel more natural and sustainable.
- Learning to say “no” to opportunities that don’t align with your goals or values is just as critical as saying “yes,” because it protects your time, energy, and ability to excel in the areas that truly matter.
- Positioning yourself as a thought leader through speaking on panels, moderating events, and writing articles not only demonstrates expertise but also consistently attracts the right kind of clients and referrals.
- Long-term success in rainmaking comes from treating business development as an ongoing habit integrated into daily life, rather than a separate task, so it becomes part of who you are and how you work.
“Bottom line, listen. You have to listen to what people are saying… because that is how you end up developing an authentic relationship.” — Tina Martini
“You can’t underestimate the trust factor here, the likability factor here, the authenticity factor here… when somebody trusts you and believes in you to such a degree that you can handle their legal matters all under one roof.” — John Sciaccotta
“If someone invites you to an event, go… if someone wants you there, be there… and then for me, the biggest thing… is just constant giving. And I’m really, I’m not even like, this is authentically me… always thinking about how to help someone else. “ — Leslee Cohen
Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, launching August 25, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.
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About our Guests:
Tina Martini is a partner at McDermott Will and Schulte, specializing in intellectual property. [LinkedIn | Website]
John Sciaccotta is a partner/lawyer at Aronberg Goldgehn, a business litigator, and past president of the Chicago Bar Association [LinkedIn] | Website].
Leslee Cohen is the managing partner at AllRise Legal, working with startups from seed to exit [LinkedIn | Website].
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody, if you wish you had the insider tips and scoop on how lawyers build powerhouse practices now you can. I’m Steve Fretzin, and the be that lawyer Coach’s Corner is my newest podcast. I cut through the fluff and give you the real actionable steps to grow your book of business, from marketing, moves, relationship, time, management, operations, anything that’s going to help you be that lawyer. It’s happening, and it’s launching today, August 25 keep an eye out. Subscribe. Check it out. Look for it, and I know it’ll help you on that journey to becoming that lawyer
Narrator [00:38]
you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host. Steve Fretzin, Hey
Steve Fretzin [01:01]
everybody, welcome back to be that lawyer live. This is insider tips from the legal industry’s top rainmakers. If you missed part one, you’re going to have to go back and check that out. Dozens of crazy good tips for you there. And of course, in part two, once again, we have Tina John and Leslee, top rainmakers from my book, be that lawyer 101 top Rainmaker secrets to growing a successful law practice, and they will again be sharing their amazing rainmakers best practices with you. Enjoy the show, everybody. And here we go. There’s a question from our audience. Here is my buddy kerbis. He’s just asking about the pros and cons of like networking in rooms with attorneys versus non attorneys, and what has yielded better results. And I know, like, for example, in the provisors universe, where Leslee and I are, there’s lawyer group, right? And the lawyer and I hear nothing but great things about this lawyer group in Chicago, where, you know, all these lawyers come and get together and network. And, I mean, I just feel like networking with lawyers, maybe not, ones that are your direct competitors, right? Is incredibly valuable. Tina, do you have a take on that?
Tina Martini [02:05]
I think it’s a great question, and I think it depends on which of the three panelists you’re talking to about this answer, because as an attorney who’s been in big law her entire career, it’s, by it’s very nature a general practice firm. And so what I’m trying to do, from a BD perspective, is not just get business in my own area, but I’m trying to do the cross sell right and bring in work that is in other areas too. And so when I start thinking about the universe of other similarly situated lawyers, where it makes sense to expend significant effort to do business development. I think it’s going to have to be a pretty compelling reason, not that I don’t have friends in big law I do, not that I don’t spend time with them. I do. But time is probably our most cherished, you know, asset at this point. And so if I have to make choices like we all do about how I’m going to spend my time, I’m going to be very mindful how much time I’m spending with lawyers who are directly competitive to me, who I think that the likelihood I never get a referral or a direct matter from is pretty slim. So that’s usually sort of the framework governing how I approach, how much time I spend when it comes to BD related networking.
Steve Fretzin [03:27]
Got it. Final Thoughts on networking with lawyers versus non lawyers.
Leslee Cohen [03:32]
Leslee, I think John made a great point. You know, with the Bar Association so and for me, there’s no question. I mean, in our provisors group. It’s so helpful, but I have a niche so and also in someone made this point earlier too. It’s also always about like, what you can refer out to other people. So I’m happy to meet lawyers who I know can in other niches, who I know they can refer to me, and I’m always looking for clients for them. So it’s, for me, it works. But you’re right, Tina, and when I was in big law, that never wouldn’t have been a good strategy.
Steve Fretzin [04:07]
So the saying goes, the riches are in the niches. John, can you talk to that? Because I think my, you know, again, the late great Larry frets, and I keep bringing him up because he was unique in so many ways. One was that he was a generalist in every sense the word. He could do an estate plan, he could litigate at the Illinois Supreme Court and every court and everything in between these days, you know, in 2025 I think it’s very challenging to build a brand and to build a book on being a generalist. So what’s your take on specialization, niching down, and why that’s important for lawyers to consider. So for my
John Sciaccotta [04:39]
first 30 years of practice. I was somebody that I could try any case, and I’ll learn the substance probably, over the last 10 years, and I have tried a lot of different things. I’ve trade secret cases, I’ve, you know, I’ve done a lot, but over the last 10 years, as I was developing the business divorce and complex. Ownership disputes committee at the CBA, the bell sort of lit off for me. A little bit is as I was focusing on this particular area, and it’s not the only area that I practice in. I was able to develop an expertise in this area, a go to person in this area, and people are coming to me, and I’m getting calls all the time, John, I have this business divorce. Can you share some insights? Okay, and then when the case gets sort of past what they can handle, they’ll refer it to me. So, you know, maybe in the IP space you have to or in the securities or startup space, you know you have to create some kind of a niche that this is what I do, and I do it, quite frankly, better than everyone else, and that I could be a resource to you, because, believe it or not, in A firm like mine and all firms, we get conflicts, okay? And we have conflicts all the time in litigation of IP matters. And who am I going to think of? I’m going to think of Tina. The next time when we have a startup or an angel investor situation that we need to bring somebody in, I’m going to think of Leslee. Okay, so I think being around lawyers can be tremendously helpful, if, in fact, you can talk to them about what they don’t do, or about what happens when they have a conflict. To think of you. Yeah, I get business divorce cases from personal injury lawyers. I get them from accountants, from insurance brokers, okay, and agents from banks. I received a number and I represent a lot of banks, but I received a number of business divorce cases from a customer that’s having a problem with a partner. And who do they call they think of me, because that’s what I do. So, you know, being around lawyers can be beneficial, but you have to sort of know how to do it, and there’s a way to do it that they can be very significant influence. Centers of Influence, that’s what you want to focus on. What are the centers of influence in your life and who can help you, and if you could identify those earlier that rather than later. And sometimes it takes a long time. I tell this story all the time. I was in a business group for seven years. There was a dinner once a month for seven years, and I went every month. I never got a piece of business. In year seven, I got one of the largest pieces of business I ever received in my career. I use that example to young lawyers all the time. It’s not always a quick quid pro quo. It takes a long time. Okay, people have to, first of all, light you have to meet them. They have to like you. If they like you, they will trust you, and if they trust you, they will give you a piece of legal work. That’s sometimes the most important thing to them, but it’s a process of having to go through that timeline that people have to be patient with, and it’s difficult,
Steve Fretzin [08:25]
but John, also they have to remember you. And I’m just concerned that there are lawyers that are in, let’s say, the transactional space, right, Leslee, but they’re doing everything they’ll take on anything that walks in the door, and so they’re really not referable, because no one’s really remembering them that they’re the person that’s the go to for x, and you fill in what the blank is. So, I mean, you obviously have niche down quite a bit explain how that was that day one, or is that something you figured out over a period of time?
Leslee Cohen [08:55]
Yeah, that’s a great question that took time when I first went to all those networking meetings. This was my elevator pitch was, We’re great outside general counsel to anyone, any firm or any business. It’s too small to need full time in house counsel. Guess what? People remember from that zero? They have no idea what that means, none like they and so, you know, I it didn’t work. And I was like, Okay, what makes me different? Like, I had to go back to the drawing board. Like, what makes me different from when I go to all these meetings and all these people are saying what they do, like, what? And I was like, I’m a securities lawyer. I’m a well trained, long time experienced securities lawyer. So I turned to that. And then the best moment in my aha, moment of all in business development, a woman said to me, oh, you’re a securities lawyer. You keep companies safe. And I said, No, I don’t I represent companies that are raising money. And she said, Okay, you need to say that, because nobody understands what you do, right? Like if Tina came into a group of people who weren’t lawyers and said, I’m an into. Intellectual property lawyer, non lawyers would be like, Okay, what does that even mean?
Steve Fretzin [10:04]
I’m thinking, I’m not very intellectual. So what is, what do I have to do with
Leslee Cohen [10:08]
Tina, yeah, so that that was just so important and literally now, and what’s and, you know, to your point, I so we do, you know, all the fundraising rounds. We also do mergers and acquisitions, and we have a very, very robust practice in that area. But that was sort of like, that comes with the territory, because there’s so many competitors. So this was something different and so easy, and that opened up all the doors, because I’m, like, I represent companies raising money. Oh, I know someone raising money. You know, it’s like, golden
Steve Fretzin [10:38]
Tina, how about on your front? I mean, I know on one hand, your your focus in what it is. On the other hand, though you want to be open enough to get business in all areas to bring into the firm, because cross marketing and cross selling has kind of been your one of your go to plays. So how does that occur when people are thinking about you for IP and not for you know, the things that you could be bringing in to help your firm?
Tina Martini [11:03]
You know, that’s a great question. I’d say there are a number of different strategies I use. I’m very careful about what my elevator speech is. To Leslee’s point, just very mindful and strategic. When I’m meeting people, for example, who don’t know who I am. I’m very mindful, like if I think, for example, that there is a cross sell potential and that there that actually may be the first road in to a new potential client, I explain what my practice area is. It is, but then, depending on how familiar they are with what a general practice firm is, I have a tailored message about how I work at a general practice firm, and part of what I do, and over half the time I spend is leading client relationships where a lot of the work is not necessarily my practice area, but and I don’t charge clients for the time I spend getting client service teams together in areas that are outside of my expertise, and when I explain it to them as a relationship based business, where I am helping them solve their problems, regardless of what legal area they may be in, and explain to them what the level of expertise is that my colleagues have across different geographies and practice areas. People get it and I listen listening to what their issues and problems are, which is something we’re probably going to talk a little bit more about later, but that helps me in real time, fine tune my message so that I keep that door open from the very beginning to the cross sell and don’t just make be about what I do.
Steve Fretzin [12:44]
Yeah, well, and the other piece of this is that you might do multiple things, but I think, to your point, and I love that you said this, that you can tailor what you’re saying to the audience. If it’s a general audience, it can be more general if it or it could be what you think that audience might be interested in. You’re talking to someone that you believe has more opportunity in one area than another, you can change up your infomercial or change up the conversation. It doesn’t have to be, you know, pushing a rope when you know you’re trying to sell something that no one wants or it’s something that no one is interested in. So I think that’s really important. I Steve.
John Sciaccotta [13:17]
I think the other point that Tina makes, and Leslee has made it as well is I use every department in my law firm. I’m not a real estate lawyer, okay? I’m not an M and a lawyer. I’m not a bank lawyer, but I represent banks, and here’s why, I think if people like you and trust you, they’re going to go to you, not only because of what you do. And I think lawyers misperceive this, okay? They think that personal injury lawyers only get pi cases. Personal injury lawyers get all kinds of things because people call them. They know them, they trust them, okay? And if the client or the relationship trusts you, and you’re their lawyer, they’re going to come to you because you know what, John’s going to handle it. John and his firm is going to handle it, and I’m going to oversee it. You can’t underestimate the trust factor here, the likability factor here, okay, the authenticity factor here, if you are all of these things to people and they like you and you’re a nice person, they’re going to go to you and they’re going to and they come to me and they say, John, I have a trademark issue. Okay, I don’t do I’ve done trademark cases, but not for years, but we have a trademark department, so I said, don’t worry about it. I’ll handle it. I’ll oversee it. That’s what they need to know. And when you get that, that’s an awesome responsibility. When somebody trusts you and believes in you to such a degree that you can handle their legal matters all under one roof. And I think that’s sort of, you know, with our firm, we’re full service, okay? We can do many things under one roof. If big law is that way, there’s other niche players, like Leslee does M and A and sort of niche things, but you know, maybe she doesn’t do labor and employment, you know, and that’s something that we do okay, because we represent businesses and business owners. But so even when you’re talking to lawyers, in particular law firms, you have to understand what they do, but more importantly, what they don’t do, and what you could send them and what they can send you. The other thing I want to just point out is, and I learned this many years ago when I went to a course out in Arizona, there’s internal marketing and there’s external marketing, one of the things that I’ve been, I think, successful with. I’ll give you an example. My cousin is a partner in an accounting firm. He sent me a piece of business, and we successfully handled it. I asked him, can you tell all of your partners and colleagues what happened? Can you share that with them? Lo and behold, about a month later, I get one of his partners that sends me a matter that’s internal marketing within a particular organization. And I just had to ask him if he would consider doing that. And I think it’s important to know that even though you only have a point of contact, those point of contacts have their own tentacles. Okay, they have tentacles, and you want to grasp and get into their network, okay, their entire network and their partner’s network you want to be, I call it the octopus theory, okay, you want tentacles all over the place, because you never know when a piece of business is going to when there’s a need. I believe that business development, like everything in life, is based on needs. If somebody needs you, you have to fulfill that need, and one of the ways to do that is to let people within organizations to share the good things that you’ve done for them with their partners and colleagues.
Steve Fretzin [17:16]
Hey, pi attorneys, if you’re serious about scaling your firm, there’s one event you can’t afford to miss, Pim con 2025 happening October 5 through the eighth at the Phoenician resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. Pim con isn’t your average legal conference. It’s an experience. Learn how to take your firm from good to goat with some of the biggest trailblazers in the PI space, including yours truly, as we share our elite marketing and brand building strategies. Tickets on sale [email protected] That’s B, I m, c o n.org, or just hit the link in the show notes. Your climb to the top starts at PIM con 2025 let’s go from good to go. Hey, be that lawyer friends. If you’re looking for smarter ways to grow your law practice and want to stay ahead of the curve in legal tech, business and strategy, then it’s time to check out legal verse media, the go to hub for lawyers who want more. This international platform connects you with global thought leaders through articles, podcasts, webinars and interactive forums that are shaping the future of law. Explore everything with a free 14 day trial, including early access to tools peer discussions and a chance to build your brand as a thought leader. Don’t wait. Visit legalverse media.com, and register for membership today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law of practice. Let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzen.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. But the other piece of it, John, and I think you’re the master at this is how we develop authentic relationships. Because if you don’t have the likability and the trust and they want to send you something, maybe they’ll hesitate, or maybe they’ll think about who they know or like better. Sometimes things just come people’s way because they’re you’re the only one that someone can come up with a name. Ultimately, though, I’d like you guys to share one tip on how you develop authentic relationships with people that lead to business. Because I the people listening to this really want to know what the secret sauce is with that. Tina, you want to start us on that? Sure.
Tina Martini [19:35]
I mean, I’ve got a couple things that I can just throw out there and the like, what I would say is probably the underlying issue, which is being authentic, genuine, empathetic, resourceful, patient, generous, be willing to spend time with people. But bottom line, listen. You have to listen to what people are saying. Don’t be in your head. Ed, trying to plan the next thing you’re going to say and miss the messaging that you get, because that is how you end up developing an authentic relationship. Is when you really hear what somebody is saying. Process it. Think about how you feel if you were in their shoes and be authentic with them. But it all starts with listening.
Steve Fretzin [20:20]
Yeah, Leslee, I didn’t hear a word. Christina just said, but if I did, no, just tease in there. But there’s absolutely no question in the feeling of being listened to, being understood, being empathized with, are at the cornerstone, in the heart of what business development is all about. So people that think it’s about sales and selling are really missing what this is all about. And I think the three of you can appreciate authentic relationships and developing them and keeping them as well as anybody, and that’s really at the heart of it, teasing aside so Leslee, something that you’re doing on a regular basis that is developing significant relationships that are leading to business for you showing up.
Leslee Cohen [21:02]
I’ll say two things that are related, but the one is showing up. Like, if someone invites you to an event, go like you may not be thrilled to leave your family in a blizzard and go down, you know, in the suburbs.
Steve Fretzin [21:15]
Let’s not get crazy on this situation here, but that’s what I’m assuming. That’s what you’ve done, and we’ve all done at some point, right?
Leslee Cohen [21:23]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you know, if someone wants you there, be there, and, you know. And then for me, the biggest thing, and I’ve, you know, hinted at it, we’ve talked about it, but it’s just constant giving. So there’s, and I’m really, I’m not even like, this is authentically me, and I don’t think it used to be, but once I started the business development, and it’s funny, because now I like myself, because now I like myself so much better than I used to, which is just always thinking about how to help someone else. And I really thought selling was about like telling everyone why they need me. And it’s, it’s really how you can help them. And it’s, I mean, the very one of the very first pieces of business I got was after a networking meeting, I, you know, was in this startup tech thing world, and I sat down with someone, and he was in, he had a social media firm, like, way back in the beginning, it was like 2010 and, I mean, there was really nothing I could figure out, like, how I could help him. And I didn’t have business at the time. I didn’t, you know, I but we just started talking about that his son plays guitar, and he can’t get his kid to practice, and like, he’s gonna make him quick guitar if he doesn’t start practicing. And I said, you know, for whatever it’s worth, my son was we had, was in the same position, and we found this guy who puts kids in bands and the chance to be able to play in a band. The guy said to him, like, then you have to learn to be better guitarist before I can put you in a band. And you’ve never seen someone practice guitar like my kid, and how good he got so fast so he could. And this had nothing to do with business. I told him, You know, I gave him the name a year later, he’s like, okay, my kid just did his first concert, and, like, that was amazing. And I want to help you. I’ve got to be business for you so, you know, just anything you can think of in a million years to, you know, and just sometimes even, like this was not to get business, Steve and I, you’ve had, we’ve had such a long term, like, great relationship. But I listened to a bunch of your podcasts. And I was like, I know you, but also like, you’re just such a good guy. Like, just, I think I just reached out to you out of the blue and I emailed. I was like, I just listened to your podcast. Like, you rock as a human, you know. And just, I don’t know someone’s last thing, someone sent me a book. I recently lost both my parents, and someone sent me a book that was the only thing that gave me some peace through everything, and it’s this. I Every person who loses someone now it’s $7 on Amazon. I send them the book because that helped me, and I’m hoping that it will help them like those. Those are the things.
Steve Fretzin [24:00]
Yeah, we go around at the end of our provisors group each month, and no one gets thanked more than Leslee. She’s out there all the time for other people. And we can, you know, there’s so many different moving parts in business development and relationships and how we build a law practice at the very center of it, I think, is, how are we out there helping others. And how are we, you know, not just selling, not selling, but really, you know, offering and asking and being there, you know, completely for other people. And I think you and I both are on 100% board with that and how that works. And John, I’m let you wrap up with 30 seconds on this, and then we’ve got one more question to ask, and then we’re going to wrap up, and then we may have a few minutes for some Q and A at the end with the audience. So take it away.
John Sciaccotta [24:45]
I know this may surprise some people, but over the years, what I think has been most effective for me is kindness. And people are like, what’s that have to do with business development when you’re. Kind to someone, and you’re not just looking for a quid pro quo. I can’t tell you how long, how far that goes. Yeah, and that dovetails into Tina and Leslee talking about being givers rather than takers, and not having a transit always a transactional mentality as it relates to business development, I think people that are there, they always, you know, they run into a dead end. I also think competency and reliability is really important. But I think kindness to people is what transcends anything. Yeah, and I think that is that separates those that are great from those that are just good or Okay, yeah, so
Steve Fretzin [25:48]
I’ve got such unbelievable notes from you three already. We only have time for about one minute each on this last question, and then we’re going to wrap up and do some Q and A with the gang in the in the audience here. This is something called Fail forward. It’s a new segment on the podcast, but can you share a moment where you failed but it ended up leading you forward? It ended up being something that that really made a big difference in your career. Tina, oh,
Tina Martini [26:16]
I think this is a wonderful question, and I think it’s reflective of things that we learned during the trajectory of our careers, especially on BD, there have been a number of instances where I’ve been involved in RFPs and RFQs, where we as a team have put a lot of effort into a response, thinking that it would very likely lead to a, you know, potentially getting business on the Other side. I know we haven’t really talked about those during our time together today, but you know, one of the things I’ve learned is, and this is where the fail forward is, is that I’m a lot more discerning whether it’s the strategies that we’ve talked about here today or more formal requests for proposals and that sort of thing about really taking a step back to observe the landscape of the potential opportunity, and to really try to figure out whether it’s an opportunity of value, or whether there’s some political dynamic at play, whether it’s a mark to market situation where, you know, not trying To be pejorative here, but where we’re more pawns in a bigger picture political landscape than actually getting a legitimate opportunity. And so I would say learning discernment and zooming in and out with respect to being thoughtful and strategic on BD is what I’ve taken out of some of those more formal RFP, RFQ, situations,
Steve Fretzin [27:43]
but, but we could relate that to people who we invest in and with groups, events, conferences. Writing, I wrote for the Chicago Daily law bulletin for, I don’t know, eight or nine years, and I loved it, and I wouldn’t change anything for the world, but I needed a bigger audience, and so, like today, my articles up on above the law on their homepage and and that’s going to get me a lot more traction because of the audience and the size and scope of it, but I needed to get my chop. So I think a discernment of how you spend your time, and I think the learning that happens is absolutely that’s price what you just shared is priceless for people that are spinning their wheels with people and things that aren’t producing and how we need to look at those things and make different decisions.
Leslee Cohen [28:24]
Leslee, yeah, I mean, I’ll just add on to that. I when I first started the firm, you know, corporate M and A securities lawyer, everyone I met, you know, back said, Who do you want to meet? And everyone was like, You need to meet private equity and venture capital people, you know. So I people made these introductions. I spent a real lot of time and effort for the first year meeting with private equity and venture capitalists, till finally, a friend, and very little came out of it. Till finally, a friend who’s got a private equity firm said, Listen, I have no doubt, like, You’re brilliant. I know you like, I know you must be really, really good at what you do. I first of all, need, like, for cya purposes, I need a big firm name on my book and my investors, like, god forbid something goes wrong, I can’t have all rise legal counsel on my book. And also, I’ve had this long relationship with this big firm. We got our documents, we’ve got our like, we’ve got our methodology. And I was like, I’ve been totally barking up the wrong tree. And then I actually went back to those people and said, I would be great for your portfolio companies were way less expensive than the bigger firms, and that worked much better. So I think you know Same exact thing, like going spending your time with the wrong
Steve Fretzin [29:35]
audience, yeah, well, no. And also know what your buyer persona is. Know like, who are the people that in the types of matters that are going to work for you, and the ones where you’re just, you’re again, you’re chasing after an invisible, you know thing, fantastic, John, wrapping us up.
John Sciaccotta [29:50]
And, you know, I think we’ve all gone down roads that haven’t really been fruitful, and I’ve tried to turn a negative into a positive. You know. Even with, you know, certain relationships where they had certain expectations and different than mine or vice versa. I think you have to take you have to learn from every misstep. Because I think the experience that you obtain, even if it was not the greatest experience, it makes you better. There was a time when I was involved with some clients in a relationship. For many years, they wound up, you know, splitting up, and one of them took my side, another one took another person’s side, and I lost the client. And I had invested a ton of time and resource and hand holding. But what it taught me was, is that, you know, in those situations, that’s ultimately sometimes what happens, and that I learned from it, and now, when I’m in another similar situation, I know how to handle it much better.
Steve Fretzin [30:58]
Well, we have we’re going to wrap up. I want to mention that we have about five more minutes left of our time today. We’re going to we’re going to wrap up the podcast portion of the show, and then we’ve got five minutes to answer questions, so put them in the chat and the Q and A whatever you have, and we’ll take them. But I just want to take a moment to thank not only the three panelists, but I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors, legal, verse, media, pimcon, coming up in October, for PI attorneys that want a first class experience, I will be there on stage talking about podcast best practices and a law her podcast with Sonia Palmer, if you haven’t checked that out, empowering women in law to be their best selves. So some wonderful sponsors there, and I just let’s take a moment and just wrap up with some questions in some Q and A from the audience. Do we have I think I saw one from from Saad, who’s my buddy and client in Saudi Arabia. He’s just asking about the power of social media. Is it worth hiring someone to manage it for you, or just doing it yourself? And kind of you know, putting in the effort. What’s your take on that teen? Are you running your own show on social
Tina Martini [32:03]
I think that’s a fabulous question, and I think it really depends on what your ultimate goal is with social media, and whether there are certain things that you need to hire somebody to do because you just can’t do them, or you can’t do them as efficiently as you need to have them done. I’m running my own show with social media, and I actually don’t spend all that much time with it. I am on it to see what other people are doing. I do post my own stuff. But if you find, for example, that there are client opportunities or potential client opportunities that you get from outreach on LinkedIn, that you’re just you don’t have the time to do and this is just an example of using social media. If you could outreach from potential clients, and you don’t have the bandwidth to actually go through the messages you’re getting, you’re leaving money on the table, in which case, I’d say it makes sense for you to find a solution that being said, I think you need to think very carefully about hiring somebody to help you just post. Because there is such a thing as social media posting fatigue, where, if you post so much, you may fatigue your audience, your potential audience, etc. So I think you need to be mindful and strategic about the cadence and quality and substance of what you’re posting as well.
Steve Fretzin [33:19]
Yeah, I think I posted like three or four times today. So all right,
Tina Martini [33:24]
that’s why it’s important.
Steve Fretzin [33:25]
Yeah, we had this coming up. I had a new above the law article, and then there was some other thing I posted. I was like, too much, and the podcast coming out. Leslee, what’s your take on that?
Leslee Cohen [33:35]
So I’ll give a shout out to which I know you, you know, and have had her on your So, green cardigan marketing, Ashley Robinson, they focus only on law firms, and they’ve been doing my social media for like, three years now. I talked to 10 different providers before I chose them. I’m so glad I did. They get my vibe. They’re cost effective, they’re really good. So I could never have the time to do my own there’s no way.
Steve Fretzin [34:02]
Yeah, it speak. You know, having a va a virtual assistant today, whether it’s in the US or international, is sort of a no brainer, like they’re able to handle for not a lot of money. You know, dozens and dozens of tasks that are not the best use for attorneys time. You guys are billing 500 to 1500 an hour, yet you’re sitting on doing a $10 an hour job posting and doing some marketing basic things. And so I’m always automate, delegate. What can we do to move it aside? Let’s move. If it’s okay, let’s move. We’ve got one more and then we’re going to wrap up. What sort of business development activities you outsource or delegate. That’s from my client and friend Andy. So John, what are there any things that you’re doing that you’re either outsourcing or delegating around, business development, marketing?
John Sciaccotta [34:48]
Well, we have a business development and marketing staff at the firm. So you know, the social media on behalf of the firm, client events, events that we are hosting. And the firm takes care of that, but they don’t take care of our individual lawyers, social media marketing. Now, I have some partners that have used and outsourced their social media, individual marketing. I don’t do that. Unlike Tina and Leslee, I do it myself. I you know, I share things, I post, I comment. It doesn’t absorb too much of my life. But if there’s something upcoming, like this great program, I’m going to promote it. I’m going to promote it personally. Because, quite frankly, I have a lot more contacts in the network than maybe even the firm has, so it’s going to be more a more effective to a certain extent, but I know some lawyers that they just don’t want to deal with it. They want somebody else to deal with it, and that’s how they operate. Yeah, I’ve got
Steve Fretzin [35:53]
Tina’s gonna hear about everybody’s hearing about this for the first time, but I’m starting a second podcast. Be that lawyer Coaches Corner with Steve Fretzin, and it’s going to be a more coaching based thing. But my the point of me sharing that, other than announcing it, which I just did, is that there’s a company I’m working with that will produce it, interview me, then take all the content, break it up in a video, put on every social media channel possible. Use AI for all of it, and VAs for all of it. It’s highly affordable, so like to have that much content created by an outsourced company is sort of the future and where I think we’re all headed. All right, everybody, as we wrap up part two of be that lawyer live insider tips from the legal industry’s top rainmakers, I want to take a moment to thank our wonderful panelists, Tina John and Leslee. Amazing job. Of course, want to thank you our live audience for joining us, and of course, everybody listening at home. Thanks so much for being here, and hopefully you got as much as I did out of this, maybe even more to help you. Be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take everybody. Be safe, be well. We’ll talk again very soon.
Narrator [37:00]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.