Belle Walker: Procedural and Organizational Structure

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Belle Walker discuss:

  • What process mapping is and how it varies from standard operating procedures.
  • Including client touch points in your process map (not just in the standard operating procedure).
  • The value process mapping has for a law firm.
  • Getting started on process mapping for your legal business.

Key Takeaways:

  • When starting a process map, have a start point, an end point, and a name for the process map.
  • If a process has concrete steps, that is just a list. If there are decisions that need to be made, a process map could be engaged to serve your goals.
  • Become familiar with visual language – shapes that have meaning.
  • There are many software products that can assist you with process mapping for your firm for little to no additional cost to your firm.

“Process maps have value when you have decision points, options, and loops – conditions that need to be met.” —  Belle Walker

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About Belle Walker: Belle Walker takes organizations from Friction to Function, recapturing lost efficiency and engagement by aligning ways of working with strategic goals. Her clients span tech, professional services, nonprofits, and more. Prior to consulting, Belle built several successful teams for HERE Technology, including one responsible for the quality of maps for autonomous vehicles, and received two patents. Belle began her career at Google, building a nationwide aerial photography operation. She has also built Product Management and Customer Service organizations. Belle has a Mechanical Engineering degree from Harvard and a Systems Engineering master’s from USC where her research studied organizations as systems.

Connect with Belle Walker:  




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

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Email: [email protected]

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Belle Walker: That also gets at a question of when might you want to use a process map versus a standard operating procedure, which tends to be more of a document or a checklist. So, if you can say, I always do step one, then step two, then step three, etc., you don’t need a process map. What you need is a list. Process maps have value when you have decision points and options and loops, right?

[00:00:26] Belle Walker: Conditions that need to be met.

[00:00:32] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:54] Fretzin: Hey, everybody. How’s it going? Steve Fretzin, Be That Lawyer. Hope you’re having a great day today. This show, as you know, is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And as I try to do every single week, twice a week, actually, is bring on great guests that I can interview to pull out the nuggets, to pull out the gems, to get you as the lawyer listening, some action, actionable, tactical things that you can do to try to improve your life one way or the other.

[00:01:19] Fretzin: And today’s no different. I’ve got Bell waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Bell? Going pretty well, Steve. Great to be here. All right. Good to have you. Good to have you. Um, I appreciate you so much submitting a great quote of the show, and I think it’s really going to be a great lead into our topic today, which is unplanned process improvement is wishful thinking.

[00:01:37] Fretzin: That’s what Waltz Humphrey? Uh, yes. Watts. Watts Humphrey. I knew I was going to blow it somehow. Okay. So tell me about that quote. Why is that such a critical and important quote in your world? Because my

[00:01:51] Belle Walker: experience has been that the desire for change has this ability to override so much of our conscious thinking as humans.

[00:02:02] Belle Walker: That we know we want something to be different and we go straight for that end result without stopping to really think through what really needs to change. What really needs to stay the same and how we’re going to make that transition to get there. And unsurprisingly, when you. And straight for step eight, seven, have a habit of tripping you up.

[00:02:25] Belle Walker: So

[00:02:27] Fretzin: it sounds like a combination of like shiny, what I call shiny penny syndrome, right? Just like always stopping the next, the next idea, the next idea, the next business, the next thing. And then just how we all love instant gratification. Like we’re all just like hungry to get it today. I want my ice cream now.

[00:02:42] Fretzin: I don’t want it in a week, you know? And so I think that’s how we’re running our days. And I think, yeah, that’s the way it comes back to haunt us. And then. And maybe we make mistakes we wouldn’t have made if we were just a little more thoughtful about them. Yeah.

[00:02:55] Belle Walker: Another expression that I, that I don’t have the attribution for, but I love is the value of going slow to go fast.

[00:03:03] Belle Walker: When you take that time up front, the longterm value and speed that you can average is often much higher than if you try to start at a sprint.

[00:03:12] Fretzin: Yeah. And I, I think, but at that, there’s a certain with lawyers in particular, you know, many of them are, are just like born perfectionists, right? And so I think there’s also another.

[00:03:21] Fretzin: Peace to that, which is, you know, analysis paralysis. And so then it’s like they spend so much time prepping and planning and thinking they never actually get to the execution. So I think a balance right between the two is probably the key. Absolutely. Yeah. So bell Walker, you are leading up the charge at Bellevue consulting.

[00:03:40] Fretzin: And we were, we had a great conversation a few weeks ago, getting set up for today, really talking about the life cycle of clients and how we communicate all this, but I’d love for you to give a little bit of your background and your expertise in, in process and organization and structure and, and, and that’s going to lead us into our, our kind of our main topic today.

[00:04:02] Belle Walker: Certainly. So my, my educational background actually started in engineering, in mechanical engineering. But at the same time, I was doing a lot of stage managing, which it turns out is just project management in a theater context. And so when I left undergrad, I was moved pretty much right into a role where I got to build an entire operation and organization to support it.

[00:04:27] Belle Walker: And I realized that there was a lot of overlap between how you approach mechanical structures. And how you approach organizational structures and processes. And so I then studied systems engineering, looking specifically at these structures and processes through that lens. And I’ve really been putting that into practice

[00:04:47] Fretzin: ever since.

[00:04:49] Fretzin: Very cool. And was there some, be that lawyer tipping point in your life, you know, maybe moving into your own business or something that you did that it’s kind of like a aha moment for you? I,

[00:05:00] Belle Walker: for me, the, oh my goodness, I just completely lost my aha moment.

[00:05:07] Fretzin: I, well, I think it’s probably something to do with, with getting into your own company or like that, like making the change into like your own gig is that, I mean, a lot of people have that.

[00:05:16] Fretzin: I had that too. I was. Working with a coach and just like as he’s coaching me, I’m coming to this realization. I love what’s going on. I love what he’s doing with me. And geez, is this something that I could do for others and that, you know, I could be of service in a different way than selling stuff, which is kind of what I did before I got into coaching.

[00:05:36] Fretzin: So I think, you know, something, I think you submitted something along that, but. You know, maybe you were having burnout with your company, something where you, you decided to just go out on your own.

[00:05:46] Belle Walker: Yeah. Yeah. I got all excited thinking about the processes and the deep dive, right. And that’s actually directly related to my aha moment.

[00:05:55] Belle Walker: Uh, I was feeling very burned out in the organization I was in. I had an opportunity to basically create a broader, higher impact role for myself and could not. Get the energy to pursue it and that’s not me, right? That was a big warning sign. And so in taking a step back, I realized that becoming an independent consultant would give me even more ability to impact.

[00:06:22] Belle Walker: Other teams, other organizations, just more people than even a more senior role in one company could have offered. And it was, it was a huge aha moment that I might be able to bring these perspectives to, to others across industries, uh, not just across companies.

[00:06:40] Fretzin: Yeah. So you’re working with more than lawyers.

[00:06:43] Fretzin: I mean, I’m obviously focused on working with lawyers, but, but you’re, you’re working in the legal space, but also in other spaces, mostly, is it mostly professional services or is it even bigger than that?

[00:06:53] Belle Walker: It’s even bigger than that. So I work with an assortment of professional services, with nonprofits, with tech companies, some manufacturing.

[00:07:02] Belle Walker: It turns out that if you have people and you have goals. That you could probably use some structures or processes to enable those people to achieve

[00:07:13] Fretzin: the goals. Yeah. And I think lawyers and law firms, they’re figuring it out. It’s I don’t think 20 years ago, anybody had it figured out. I think today more than not, they’re figuring it out either through mistakes and errors or through bringing in experts or going through some type of.

[00:07:32] Fretzin: You know, some type, not training so much as, as coaching and just like, you know, there’s just, there’s people that have process that are helping them now. But I think my question to you is like, why is like communication and, and from the first consult and dealing with, you know, getting someone to be a client.

[00:07:48] Fretzin: And then how do you like, they, they struggle with that communication and that retention and that. That piece of like, like staying engaged with them. And I think that that that’s sometimes why law firms lose a lot of business. And so do you have a, an idea about why that’s happening?

[00:08:05] Belle Walker: Yeah. I think a lot of it comes from a lack of awareness and a lack of focus.

[00:08:12] Belle Walker: So lawyers go to school, study, practice. I get really, really good at practicing law and those of us who are not lawyers are now dependent on our lawyers to practice law on our behalf. We trust them to do that and it is effectively a black box. Most of the time, right? We ask for something. We believe that they are working on it, but we don’t even know what the steps are that need to happen.

[00:08:43] Belle Walker: We have no sense of why it might take longer or shorter or exactly as long as the lawyers told us. And for the lawyers, it’s so obvious, right? It doesn’t even need to be explained because this is how things work. And that gap in expertise, I think, can cause a great rift between the clients and the lawyers.

[00:09:07] Belle Walker: And the good news is the lawyers do not need to themselves. Constantly be doing this explaining what they can do is build out a broader system or process in their organization so that their practice their team and they when necessary are doing that communication and keeping those clients. Feeling heard and cared for even while the lawyer is deep in whatever drives their passion strongest.

[00:09:34] Fretzin: Yeah. And I’ve heard, you know, two recent examples, one is a, um, and I’m not going to give the name cause I, I flat out can’t remember, but you know, a technology company that it’s all about helping to communicate with the client to give them updates and give them, you know, here’s what’s going on and here’s what’s next and here’s what we need from you.

[00:09:52] Fretzin: And it’s just automated. So the lawyers don’t really have to think about it too much. And then the other is. I interviewed a gentleman who, you know, every Friday, he and his team, you know, call every client to give them updates and to talk with them and kind of let them know what’s going on. And it’s, it’s been made mandatory because.

[00:10:08] Fretzin: It’s just, they need that, they need to have that, that day of communication so that it doesn’t ever get slipped past or, or slip by without the clients being communicated to. So I think it’s, it’s become a pretty bad scenario when clients aren’t being communicated to effectively. And, uh, you know, I’m in the business of teaching lawyers how to get more business from their happy clients.

[00:10:31] Fretzin: But if you’re not communicating and they’re not happy or they are happy, but you’re not Uh, you know, even after you’re done with the matter, there might be business that’s just being left aside because they’re not being proactive with it. So let’s talk about some solutions that you might recommend. And I think one of them is it, is it process mapping?

[00:10:50] Fretzin: Is that what you call it? Or is that, is that your language or is that natural thing that you do?

[00:10:56] Belle Walker: Uh, it is an actual thing that I do process flow chart can be a similar term there. Okay. You want to get really nerdy about it. There could be some differences, but. Effectively, process mapping is diagramming out a visualization of a process, and I am a firm believer that it can be a great tool in this context.

[00:11:17] Fretzin: Okay, so I have a new client, I’m a law firm, I have a new client, do my first intake, uh, they decide to sign up with me. Okay? So, now, there’s… Something that’s going to happen from this point on. And is that what mapping is, is it takes them through that journey?

[00:11:36] Belle Walker: So that can be one example, really across this map.

[00:11:41] Belle Walker: What I recommend starting with is a starting point, an ending point, and a name for what it is that you are mapping. And that may sound incredibly basic, but it can take several conversations to really pin down. What is that start point for that client journey? Is it signing an engagement letter? Is it a verbal Conversation with you that says I’d like to move forward.

[00:12:06] Belle Walker: Is it really you want to start with the first time you had contact with them? really pinning that down is important and Knowing when and if you want that process End to the story you just told before the matter may close and there may still be an opportunity for communication. So are you are you pause when you end the matter?

[00:12:30] Belle Walker: Are you going to pause when they have been added to your newsletter mailing list? Right? Whatever that is, I can go a long way towards streamlining whatever that journey is

[00:12:41] Fretzin: going to be. Yeah. And something that I, I, you know, again, talk about with my clients on a regular basis is that not all clients are created equal from a standpoint of the relationship and from a standpoint of maybe how much potential and opportunity there is.

[00:12:56] Fretzin: So if I’m building a, if I’m a lawyer and I’m building this amazing relationship, I’m winning the case, you know, win the litigation, client thinks I’m great. There may not be another manner for a while, but I need to, I need to have as part of that map multiple touch points over the course of the year and maybe even the year after to ensure that I’m having drinks with this person.

[00:13:19] Fretzin: I’m playing golf with this person. I’m, you know, because there’s other work that can be sent to me or there could be referrals made. And if I just like, finish the matter, say, Hey, I’m so happy that you’re happy. Goodbye. Right. Or let’s keep in touch. And then you don’t talk for two years. Like that’s a real bad play for a success that’s going on with the client.

[00:13:39] Belle Walker: I completely agree. And coming back to what you said about not all clients being created equal, that also gets at a question of when might you want to use a process map versus a standard operating procedure, which tends to be more of a document or a checklist. And so if you can say, I always do step one, then step two, then step three, et cetera, you don’t need a process map.

[00:14:03] Belle Walker: What you need is a list. Process maps have value when you have decision points and options and loops, right, conditions that need to be met. And so in the example that you’re giving, I might want to reflect at the end of a matter, is this a client I want to actively maintain a relationship with and have different processes, right?

[00:14:27] Belle Walker: I would, I stress actively because you should always. At least have some sort of passive communication, a newsletter, et cetera, that you on their radar. And there may be clients where you do want to reach out to them every month or couple months, even though the matter has closed and your process map can give you those options, can, and can guide you in selecting automation and tools that will support.

[00:14:52] Belle Walker: The path you’re

[00:14:52] Fretzin: following and should I assume that and you’ll tell me that this could also be done internally within a firm. So the loop of how the matter is managed might have multiple people involved and that sometimes that gets lost in the communication gets lost and. The client ends up being the one that suffers from that.

[00:15:14] Fretzin: So, so is there a map that can be done internally for attorneys that are looking to delegate work or attorneys that have multiple, you know, hands in the bowl, if you will.

[00:15:24] Belle Walker: Absolutely. Um, I, two examples I would give there. The, the first is right for a specific type of matter for, for an estate planner. For example, there may be specific information that’s needed, specific templates.

[00:15:38] Belle Walker: And if you can detail that out with your team and communicate up front when those touch points need to be, have a plan for making sure the client knows exactly what you’re waiting for, exactly what’s needed, that can help prevent some of the the suffering. Through that internal communication and even potentially largely setting aside the client for a moment, looking at something like your invoicing process.

[00:16:04] Belle Walker: I worked with firms where we were able to save hours of partner time on invoicing without sacrificing the correctness of the quality of those invoices by streamlining how the invoices are being prepared and reviewed. Which everybody is, is gonna win the, the client may not feel that win is viscerally, but they’re gonna get more support when the partners have the time to pay attention to them instead of reviewing invoices.

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[00:18:07] Fretzin: Schedule your free call at Legalese Marketing. Well, I think a lot of the friction that can happen at a law firm or with a client is due to poor communication, poor setting of expectations and poor follow through on expectations that have been agreed upon. So I think, you know, anything we can do to, you know, set the tone better and have a process and follow through that can be either automated or that can be, you know, structured always better than winging it.

[00:18:40] Fretzin: And so I think that’s, you know, that’s really where I’d like you to go is talk to talk to my audience about whatever it is that they’re doing, how they can set up a map or how they can start considering. Setting up processes that would work for them. Yeah,

[00:18:56] Belle Walker: so the first thing I would encourage the audience to do is to either establish or become familiar with a little bit of visual language.

[00:19:05] Belle Walker: And what I mean by that is a couple of shapes that have meaning. So traditionally that’s ovals for start and end, rectangles for process steps, diamonds for decisions. Pick your favorite shapes. As long as you’re consistent, it doesn’t really matter. Then you do that start and end and now connect the dots, right?

[00:19:25] Belle Walker: Start at your stated starting point and ask yourself, what is the first thing I do? Is there a dependency? And repeat if there’s a dependency, okay, make that a yes, no decision, follow one path. And you do that until you get to the end, and you go back through your other diamonds. It sounds tedious, and it, it can be.

[00:19:45] Belle Walker: I’m not going to pretend it isn’t. But the end result will be really valuable. Now I say tedious because if you want to go into super minute detail, uh, that can take a long time. Starting at a very high level can also have real value. And coming back to the client piece, I’ve had lawyers I’ve worked with who create a very high level process map where each step embeds a lot of information, but it shows the client what they can expect through the entire journey.

[00:20:14] Belle Walker: So I’m going to pick on estate planners again because they tend to have a very clear process. And being able to articulate that visually upfront can help clients be a lot more comfortable with understanding not only what’s happening now, but what’s going to happen next.

[00:20:30] Fretzin: You know, and I almost wonder since, you know, obviously I’m in the business development, you know, for lawyer space, if there’s a map that we could create together right now of, you know, taking the clients that you already have, that you’ve worked with successfully that think you’re great.

[00:20:48] Fretzin: And take that as a starting point and let’s make the ending point an introduction that gets made or gets fulfilled to a prospective client that could use your services. So we’re starting with You know, one, and again, I have a process that does that, but it’s not really mapped out visually. And so I’m interested in seeing if we, if we talk this through that, you know, maybe the first step is where they have to have a conversation with the client, maybe after the matter’s concluded, and what are the two or three things that you’d be looking for from that client that would be beneficial to you, but maybe also beneficial to the client, meaning, you know, if I know a great doctor, Bell, and you need a doctor.

[00:21:32] Fretzin: Right? Like, wouldn’t it be great if I could introduce you? And that’s the way lawyers need to think, that they’re this great doctor. Someone has an ailment and they’re the perfect person to fix it. So if you don’t think that way, you’re kind of going to be, you know, behind from the get go, but what do you think?

[00:21:47] Fretzin: I mean, what do you think would be in the first couple steps of the client’s happy? And we now we need to, we need to blow that towards getting an introduction or something.

[00:21:58] Belle Walker: Yeah, the first thing I would do is, is ask whether there is a natural connection point in your existing process where this conversation could happen.

[00:22:08] Belle Walker: So for example, do you have a postmatter debrief that this can become part of, you know, you can tie into that. If not, then the first step would be to schedule this conversation with the client and you can have a process loop there that says, reach out to the client. If they, if they book great move on to the next step, if not, how long until you reach out again?

[00:22:34] Belle Walker: And how many times do you reach out right? And then that can

[00:22:38] Fretzin: yeah, and I think from my perspective, you know, getting a linkedin review, positive linkedin review or google review might be one. Another might be, you know, maybe you help them with litigation, but there’s a state planning and a ton of other things that they may need that your firm can do, but you never really discuss.

[00:22:58] Fretzin: So maybe it’s some kind of evaluation or some kind of conversation about other potential challenges that company might have that you might be able to assist with, even though it may not be in your area of speciality. And then the third thing would be. A direct quality introduction, because let’s say you’re interacting with a general counsel that general counsel knows 5 or 10 other general counsels.

[00:23:19] Fretzin: And you would be great to talk with them, but that conversation hasn’t happened. And so maybe that’s where you insert it. So that might be the second or third kind of point within that structure of, of that map.

[00:23:32] Belle Walker: Yeah. I think you could say your, your next decision point might be something like, uh, is the client active on LinkedIn?

[00:23:41] Belle Walker: If a LinkedIn recommendation is, is your Goal, for example, and if they’re not active on LinkedIn, you can probably jump right to talking about people they may know or some of the other services that you have to offer where I think this is great for illustrating how, uh, Steve, how someone like you and I might work together this kind of, you know, follow up, uh, development work is not my specialty.

[00:24:08] Belle Walker: Right, where I, what I would be doing in a sort of a typical process mapping, uh, project with someone would be soliciting these ideas from them and saying, what do you want to be doing? Under what conditions do you want to be doing it? And getting it documented so that they don’t have to think through those answers every time they have a new client, they’ve done it once.

[00:24:33] Belle Walker: And then I can also point out things like, have you thought about whether or not this client is active on LinkedIn, because you probably are not using your time well, if you’re chasing a reviewer from someone whose account has three

[00:24:44] Fretzin: connections. And what this is getting me to is also thinking about, is there a way for me to lay this out visually for my clients?

[00:24:52] Fretzin: Because I’m giving them the process, I’m speaking it, I’m sharing it on a PowerPoint, but not really visually. I think it’s like step one, do this, step two, do that. But it’s not a visual circle or cycle that I think they could really get a lot out of from, from, from looking at it on a, you know, on a, on a graphic or something.

[00:25:11] Fretzin: Yeah, and there’s great

[00:25:12] Belle Walker: tools, uh, like Miro, Lucid. These are freely available. You can pay the money. You don’t have to, right? There are free versions available. That will support this process mapping work, um, even PowerPoint, uh, you can do quite a bit of process mapping in it. If you want to go really intense, I use Vizio, which is a Microsoft product pretty much designed for process mapping, but that one they don’t just let you have for free.

[00:25:38] Fretzin: Isn’t that the name of a TV, Vizio? I think it is, yes. Same, different, different company probably though. Yeah, I Vanessa’s. Okay, so this is to kind of, you know, wrap up what, what I’m kind of getting with and how I think this mapping would work is, you know, getting, you know, identifying the, you know, the client opportunity, like you said, figuring out what the next interaction is going to be.

[00:26:01] Fretzin: Then it might be, all right, you’re in the interaction, you know, how are you going to bring it up and what’s going to be asked and then how, what are they, you know, kind of giving you and then how are you getting them to make an introduction in a way that’s going to not be salesy or not feel uncomfortable and then circling it back to some follow up point where, you know, like I teach my clients to say, Hey, If I don’t like, so let’s say you’re going to make an introduction for me, bell, and I would say, you know, Hey, bell, if I don’t hear from you in the next week, uh, you know, I know you, you mentioned making this introduction, how do you want me to like, follow up with you and check in with you?

[00:26:35] Fretzin: And then you say, Oh, Steve, just email me on Friday. Okay, so now I’ve got that loop closed because you’ve given me now permission to follow up with you versus me being a pest and kind of emailing you and poking at you, which isn’t really necessarily fun for anybody.

[00:26:49] Belle Walker: Right, and, and the way I would put, fold that into a process map would be to have a, a process step, which is ask client for, uh, input on follow up and then have a couple decision points.

[00:27:02] Belle Walker: You know, it took this client before email. If yes, okay, here’s the, that this is a place where I would lean heavily on automation for a lot of clients, right? Here’s Here’s the system I set up to remind me about the email in one week. Do they prefer a phone call? Did they say, please don’t follow up, right?

[00:27:19] Belle Walker: And then having clear instructions for each of the options that might come out of that conversation.

[00:27:25] Fretzin: If this, then what? Exactly. That’s kind of where we’re going. Wow, that’s great. We make a good team, by the way. Yeah. We might have to do some stuff together. I think that’s happening. Let’s wrap things up with the game changing book, and this is one that hasn’t been on the show, and I’m very interested to hear about it.

[00:27:41] Fretzin: It’s The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, and that, what the heck is that about? I’m assuming hard things. Yeah, it’s an

[00:27:51] Belle Walker: interesting, I would say, retrospective, kind of my lessons learned book, uh, that Ben Horowitz wrote about founding and building several teams and companies and the challenges he ran into and how he tackled them.

[00:28:09] Belle Walker: So, it’s not super prescriptive, and I will say up front, there are some things in there that I wildly disagree with. Ha ha ha, okay. And, it lays out, among other things, an organizational design and development approach that I, that I have been using for a long time, and I’ve never seen anyone else.

[00:28:29] Belle Walker: articulate that way, right? Starting, starting with what are you trying to accomplish? What communication lines are you optimizing for? Designing around those principles instead of, hey, Steve is great. Let’s make Steve a team, which is where a lot of structures tend to start. So yeah, just some really brilliant insights, plenty fodder for reflection and asking yourself where maybe you don’t agree so much, uh, and all around just some, some solid advice.

[00:29:01] Fretzin: Okay. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. And Hey, before we wrap up, I’ll just want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, legalese marketing. We’ve got practice Panther and, and our, you know, one of our favorites of all in, uh, all three are wonderful is a money penny and, uh, they’ve been doing just wonderful stuff.

[00:29:19] Fretzin: All three of these as great sponsors. And so bell, if people want to reach out to you, they’re interested in process mapping, they’re interested in getting really organized with how they’re. You know, client interactions go internally, you know, and they want to be sort of evaluated so that, that you can help them.

[00:29:35] Fretzin: What are the best ways for them to reach you? Uh,

[00:29:37] Belle Walker: they can always reach me through my website at BelleVueConsulting. com or through LinkedIn. I’m pretty reachable

[00:29:44] Fretzin: directly. Active on LinkedIn. Active on LinkedIn. Okay. Well, thanks so much. I appreciate it. This has been, you know, just a different angle on…

[00:29:54] Fretzin: Organization and communication and, and something, you know, you’re the first person to kind of come on the show and really talk about it this way. And I really find it, I find it, you know, very, in a very intelligent way of thinking about, uh, how this can be run like a warehouse or like a business versus being, you know, kind of the wild West where everybody’s just shooting up in the air and kind of like winging it every day, which I think is becoming more and more challenging as far as, especially if you’re running a firm with.

[00:30:20] Fretzin: Multiple people at moving parts and all that. So I think really great stuff. Thanks so much. Thank you. And thank you everybody for spending time with Bell and I today. Hopefully you got your Usual couple of takeaways and ideas and thoughts helping you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker.

[00:30:36] Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again real soon.

[00:30:43] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, Check out today’s show notes