In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ben Chiriboga discuss:
- Career reinvention for lawyers beyond traditional legal roles
- Relationship-building as a foundation for personal and professional success
- Internal mindset shifts needed for meaningful career growth
- Fear as a driving force behind both success and stagnation
Key Takeaways:
- Building a sustainable legal career requires deliberately cultivating professional relationships rather than relying on coincidence or default connections.
- Success in and beyond law depends not only on delivering excellent work but also on ensuring others perceive the value of that work.
- Many lawyers unknowingly use fear to fuel perfectionism or people-pleasing behaviors, which ultimately leads to emotional burnout and professional dissatisfaction.
- Embracing authenticity and aligning your work with personal strengths creates more meaningful opportunities than following narrow conventional paths.
“Some way, somehow you’re going to have to face your fear. Either reality will come crashing on you, or… you work with the fear… but there’s no getting around it.” — Ben Chiriboga
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Episode References:
This Legal Life: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-legal-life-lessons-learned-from-a-life-in-legal/id1679451845
About Ben Chiriboga: Ben Chiriboga is a lawyer turned legal technology executive at Nexl, an all-in-one legal CRM that helps lawyers, marketers, and business development professionals turn their growth ambitions into action.
Alongside his work at Nexl, Ben speaks, writes, and podcasts about the evolution of legal careers. A seasoned conference speaker, Ben presents to legal professionals around the world about the future of law.
Check out Ben’s podcast, This Legal Life, where he interviews legal professionals about their lives in legal.
Connect with Ben Chiriboga:
Website: https://nexl.cloud/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benchiriboga/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:04]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here, and if you have not grabbed a copy of be that lawyer on Amazon, it is a number one bestseller. My good friend and client, Ken Levinson, a great pi attorney here in Chicago, wrote a little something about the book. He said, if you’re looking to grow your law practice, this book is a must read. Steve Fretzin has helped countless attorneys build thriving practices, and this book is full of practical, proven insights from lawyers who’ve actually done it. Grab a copy today and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:39]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [01:00]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, and you are listening to the be that lawyer podcast. We are just cruising along here, two shows a week, every week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. My job, boys and girls, is to bring you the best guests I can. I’m doing a, I believe, a stellar job. I haven’t been told to otherwise, Ben. So good to see you, man. Good to have you.
Ben Chiriboga [01:23]
It’s amazing to be with you. It’s I’m sitting on the other side after having you on the podcast, but I’m really looking forward to talking.
Steve Fretzin [01:31]
Well, I just hope you’re as impressive on mine as I was on yours.
Ben Chiriboga [01:35]
Without a doubt. You said a high bar, just like the Jordan of legal podcast.
Steve Fretzin [01:41]
Well, I’m messing around, obviously, but, you know, I just I enjoy great interactions and great conversations, and if we can help lawyers to be successful through a conversation and sharing wisdom and things that we’ve picked up on, well then Good on you, and good for us and everything else. So I’m happy that you’re here. Let’s start off with our quote of the show this is, we don’t come into this world. We come out of it. Welcome to the show, Ben, and explain that to me so I understand what you’re where you’re coming from on that.
Ben Chiriboga [02:09]
Store. You know, it’s a lot of times I feel like we live and sort of feel like we’re sort of going through the world, you know, especially high performance people like lawyers, we sort of sense that we have to put our control, our stamp on the world. And while that’s certainly true, in some sense, I think that when you over rotate with that, when you get so in this kind of like type A, always going, always always going, you start to see your life and maybe, in some sense, the entire world is kind of like a big to do list. And the quote kind of reminds me that, like, you know, while there’s something about taking action, you also sort of are part of here to sort of sort of go through the motions be part of life. And I think this balancing is really good for especially for professionals, as we all sort of get into the day to day, and a lot of, like, the high performance that sort of drives these different industries, be it legal, be it tech, be it finance, be it wherever you know, some sort of balance about at the sort of here to be part of the story, be part of the journey. Not all action, a little bit of also receive it in that sense.
Steve Fretzin [03:19]
Yeah. I mean, I kind of take, I don’t know if this is a different spin, but I mean, I want to want to enjoy and have fun while I’m here. I want to leave the world better than I found it if I’m able to, in particular the legal industry, because you have to pick a lane, and I’m not going to be around to enjoy the fruits of those labors. But I’m really hoping that by the books and the podcasts and the clients and all the stuff that we do, that we do leave a mark and that we are remembered. I know it’s not forever, and I know in 100 years, no one’s going to know my name anyway, but you know, all we can do is try to balance between, you know, enjoying our time here and making the most of it. And I think if you can leave a legacy, great, but you know, that’s not going to be all encompassing, right, for, I think, for me or for you.
Ben Chiriboga [04:00]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That’s a lot of what I’m talking about. Absolutely. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [04:05]
Awesome, man. Well, listen, everybody, you were in luck today. We’ve got Ben Chiriboga hanging out with me, Chief growth Officer of nexl, and the podcast is this legal life. And as you mentioned, I was on yours now you’re on mine. I mean, this is, I love a good pod swap, man. There’s nothing much better than that and getting analytic value for each other’s audiences. So give us a little background, though, because I think you have quite a story as a lawyer transitioning into, you know, legal tech.
Ben Chiriboga [04:30]
Yeah. So the way that I usually tell this story is twofold, and actually, right before, you know, I You mentioned the Podcast, the podcast was really about people’s journeys and how they’ve sort of developed their careers in legal I’ve had the opportunity to sort of sit down and talk to everybody from you know, Chief growth officers to CFOs at amla 10, all the way on to people who you know were in private practice and now are doing something completely different, teaching meditation, being a. Psychiatrist becoming an artist, really. I think this runs the gamut, and kind of is indicative of the fact that the legal industry, really now provides a lot of different avenues for people to kind of develop a career that makes sense to them, and, dare I say, even, is meaningful for them. So in the case of my own life, and I use the hero’s journey in my podcast, the hero’s journey has like three parts to it, so I’ll do this. So the first is the old world. I enter this world as a practicing lawyer, and I practice for about seven and a half years. At the age of 30, you hit this mile mark, and I think you start to kind of see a little bit the writing on the wall. You have sort of an understanding, you know, you’re not wide eyed and sort of bushy tailed you’ve already sort of been in my case, I had been practicing for seven years. Is sort of the understanding of what it was like to be a lawyer in the legal industry. When I hit 32 things happened, you know, the first was I was starting to understand that maybe there was portions about practicing that really didn’t fit in with my personality and sort of where I thought that I wanted to go. That’s kind of the internal drive that always points the hero to sort of think about something new. But there was also an external thing, which was at the time I was practicing, and I was doing some discovery work, and we got in some technology that basically I saw the writing on the wall whenever it came to some of what was coming down the pike, specifically for me, you know, I was, it’s like a scene out of a movie, you know, surrounded by boxes. And very quickly, this E discovery software did in six hours what I hadn’t been able to do in six months. So I had these two kind of forces that are driving me. And, you know, in the hero’s journey, there’s always forces that push you. Let’s do oldie, but goodie, Star Wars. You know, Luke is on, Luke Skywalker is on the old planet. And, you know, there’s something happening in the force, and he’s being called, but simultaneously, you know, there’s this event where he meets the droids that are sort of like taking him into this thing. So he’s getting pulled by some circumstance from the old world into the new world. For me, that’s what happened and and specifically, I went from being a practicing attorney to basically getting into legal technology and eventually being a legal tech executive, starting next to all the rest of it, getting it up to what it is now successful company, really helping bring a new, revolutionary type of CRM. There’s more to say about it, you know. But basically that’s the core of it. In the process of transitioning from lawyer to executive, there was so much that I need to learn that’s kind of always the second act, which is so many ups and downs, so many unlearnings, that you had to sort of learn about myself, about what it means to be a lawyer, about what the legal industry is like. That was really sort of the process there in terms of the second act. So that kind of brings us up to where I’m at today.
Steve Fretzin [07:44]
Okay, yeah, really, really interesting. And if you had to put your finger on, you know, one or maybe two things that are sort of attributes that you see in lawyers that allow them maybe a better chance to be successful in another venture outside of being in a private practice or a GC role. What would you say are one or two of those attributes that they may have and maybe they don’t realize, like, how much that’s going to help them in their next second chapter or next career?
Ben Chiriboga [08:12]
Yeah, so I’ll do this in three because these are three things that I specifically had to unlearn, that I would contribute now, of course, I had to learn a lot of skills about being a business executive, what it means to take, you know, to double every single year, 100% year over year. I mean, those are a lot of skills that you have to learn. I had to learn technology, of course. But the mindset shifts were really three. So the first was the idea of how important relationships actually are for sort of like your success. I think whenever you go to law school, you learn that practice acumen and how well you practice your actual legal knowledge is sort of critical, and it stops and begins there. While that’s certainly true, and I would never argue that you can’t not know what you’re talking about, there’s something about the primacy in terms of how important relationships are vis a vis your actual practice. And this has been echoed in so many of my guests that I’ve exhibited, which is the idea that relationships are so important.
Steve Fretzin [09:13]
Yeah, and I don’t want you to move to number two until we figure it out for just a moment. I mean, whether you are looking to get into another type of business, a startup or an existing business, whether you’re looking to build your book of business, no one’s going to argue the point that relationships are critical to that. They’re the ones that connect you with the mentors. They’re the ones that connect you to get the money, to get the whatever it is that you need. And you don’t have relationships. You know, it’s like you’re trying to fight somebody with both arms tied behind your back. So I just want to emphasize that is such a critical aspect that you need to make sure you keep in touch with people, that you touch, people that you continue to add value for others, so that when the time comes and you need something, they’re all lined up for you.
Ben Chiriboga [09:56]
Yeah, absolutely. How I sort of say this is moving the. From accidental to intentional, you know? And that’s really like, what does that actually mean now that becomes things like business development and client development. We can go so far down the road, but it’s really saying, I’m going to be highly intentional about this, like, this is what I’m trying to do. It’s my job to literally try to form relationships and understand the sort of the dynamics here. Next, of course, just a plug here. You know, we make it simpler than ever with sort of the data and making things with, you know, other conversation. But this is how, sort of, like my life lesson, sort of overlaps with the company. The second I would really say, is this idea around value and rethinking what value actually means. I can go so deep into this, but, you know, the high level is, I think I had to unlearn what value actually meant in the context of delivering work product. And that is, value is what is both understood to be like something inherently value, and it’s like solving the most valuable thing is kind of the most valuable thing that you can do, but it’s also about perceived value and understanding that other side of it. So learning about value was really, really important. I don’t know if you wanted to ask anything about that, but.
Steve Fretzin [11:13]
I know. I mean, I think that’s so true. And again, you know, it’s like the value you deliver. I mean, I’m just taking a business development angle here, but the fact that you can deliver on something is critical. The idea that someone believes or perceives that you can deliver is also important, because if that’s not the case, then you don’t get to deliver, right? They go a different direction, or they hold off. So you need that perception of delivery and the actual delivery together. So I really appreciate that point.
Ben Chiriboga [11:39]
Yeah, the last is, it’s something deeply personal, but I think that something that many lawyers are sort of either embodying in themselves or something about it, and that’s the idea that you’re able to sort of build something that is uniquely for yourself. Legal is inherently conservative. Performance within legal largely driven can be in some ways, you can say it’s largely driven by adhering to the rules, playing the game, meeting that game, and sort of just being the best at that game. You know, whenever I made this jump from practicing into tech, it wasn’t just because I saw the writing on the wall and I understood how technology and practice were going to come together. It was also because I was trying deeply, probably, to find something that was more uniquely myself, something that, yes, maybe play to my own strengths. Per se, I wasn’t a bad lawyer. I think I’m okay business person, you know. But it was something about being more yourself and that there’s value in it, of itself, about doing that, and that there is something for you within, that there is a market for that and that you can do that. And I think it’s just because of where legal is at, and some sort of the cultural baggage that we have right now, that idea about being yourself is a little bit outside of what people really can appreciate, I think people who get into solo practice or start their own practice, maybe they get a touch of it, but maybe they don’t even go all the sort of like the way in terms of understanding that the differentiating factors really come down to yourself, your relationship, and something about that sort of trifecta, about the work product yourself and and the relationships that you have.
Steve Fretzin [13:22]
With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get More rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. I would add that there’s something really exciting about creating you’re doing the law and you’re in a role, and you’re playing your part, and you’re cranking out work product, and I get all that, and there’s creativity involved in that, in those matters. But when you go out and start something, or when you go out and help build something, and there’s, you know, sales and marketing and operations and finance, and you’re becoming great at one thing, or you’re helping to design, you know, be that lawyer, you’re designing McDonald’s, or does that, whatever it is that you’re creating, that’s exciting. And then when you actually get through the other side and it’s there and people acknowledge it, it’s even more exciting. So that’s maybe another piece of, you know, why lawyers might feel stuck in a role as a spoke in a wheel, versus maybe, you know, creating the whole car.
Ben Chiriboga [14:57]
Yes, totally, yeah. It’s a lot of that. Yeah. Create. Activity sort of definitely plays a core part of it. It’s almost that you have to believe that you can create, you know, effectively, and that gives you the freedom to sort of go in this way.
Steve Fretzin [15:10]
Yeah. Now something interesting too, that you and I have in common is the interesting people that we get to interview on our podcast. In this case, you’re the interesting person I’m interviewing. But I also have this new book out, you know, be that lawyer, 101 rain top, rainmakers, you know, best, best ideas, etc. So what I thought would be really interesting would be for you to share some of the takeaways from your podcast, this legal life. And I’ll share some of the best takeaways that people that are listening now have either heard or maybe they missed, and they need to go back. We don’t need to necessarily give out names, but we can talk about what are some of the best takeaways. And I’ll allow you to take the first shot if you want.
Ben Chiriboga [15:44]
Storm, you know, just to set up the podcast again, remind everybody, you know, the idea is we live in a world that people can create careers in legal that I think are highly meaningful for them. Is it easy? No. Is it simple, in some ways a little bit, yes, it’s kind of based on what I spoken to a little bit, in a way, in a sense, you know, I started the podcast because, for a very specific reason, which is, you know, whenever I graduated law school, I was basically told three things as my entire career advice. One, go in house to a company. Two, go work for the government. Three, go work for a law firm. That was it. That was the whole thing period. That’s what I got whenever, okay, that’s fine. I didn’t even know what it meant within the context of I chose to go to a law firm. And I didn’t even know what that meant about developing a career. It was kind of just, you know, falling forward at the point in time where I thought, Wow, can I even just jump from being within those three lanes into tech, there was not, there was no manual, you know. It was just, you know, you’re going off into the wilderness by yourself. So the podcast really sort of tries to pull out and say, it shouldn’t be this hard. And in fact, there are other people who have done it. If I interview these people and get their life lessons, that’s the thing, in some sense, I’m trying to speak to the thing that I didn’t have whenever I tried to do both of these jumps, one, develop a career as a lawyer, and my first take and my second take trying to get into tech and leverage, sort of my relationship, not my relationships, my experience. Basically, I can talk, you know, at a very high level. And then I want to send it back to you. You know, what is so interesting is that at the end of I use the hero’s journey the Act Three. Act One is I lead the old world. Act Two is I go into the new world, and I learn some sort of skill and I transform. Act three is I come back to the tribe and I share lessons learned. That’s the hero’s journey loop, basically. And you can see it once you know it. You see it in every single movie. That’s like about the hero’s journey. It doesn’t matter. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Hunger Games, it goes on and on and on. It’s the same thing always. So I get these lessons learned from people all the time, because it’s part of the action, it’s part of the question sequence. And basically it always comes back to one thing, which is, don’t let fear rule your life. That’s basically it. That’s the whole thing. And easier said than done. And everybody has to go through this by themselves. But effectively, it comes back to, don’t let fear rule your life. And I know that it’s a really poignant and, quite frankly, a really big point in terms of, how much are you living from fear? I went through it myself. You know, how much did fear even drive your success based on the idea that success, more success would give me, would make me less afraid. In fact, it’s actually the opposite. You know what I mean. And sometimes success actually drives more fear, in a way, if you’re not, sort of leading from some other sort of like value system.
Steve Fretzin [18:36]
Well and there’s a made up sort of acronym for feel or, you know, fear is false evidence appearing real. I don’t know if I heard that back in the 90s or something like that, but it’s so much of our fear is just driven by our brains and not in reality. I mean, you’re gonna we’re not gonna walk outside my place right now and a tiger is gonna attack me, right? What is fear? Why is, you know, public speaking like number two on the list of things people fear is all in our head. So it doesn’t mean it isn’t real in some ways, because your fear is real, however, it’s how we address it and how we overcome it that decides what our lives are going to be. If we’re afraid of everything all the time, we’re going to hide under our desks, and that’s the end of it. Business Development is a great example. Lawyers having fear because they think it’s or believe it’s sales or that it’s ugly or dirty. And what I’m teaching every day is, no it’s actually solving problems. You’re solving problems for people. And the only way you could solve problems for people is figuring out that they should use you as their lawyer, not someone else. How do we do that? Well, we have to, you know, follow it, you know, planning and process and steps to do it in a non salesy way. And so a lot of the lawyers that I work with as an example, have those fears, and they quickly realize in working with me that it is mostly in their heads, and it’s just a matter of trying some new things out that alleviates the fear. Right? I’m afraid of heights, but I go and I climb the flagpole and I look down. On, and I realized, look, I’m safe. I’m okay on the flagpole, and that’s the end of it. Now, I don’t have a problem. I’m going in a small plane taking my son to Canada for fishing. I’m going in a small plane. Well, I’ve been in a small plane crash, so should I be afraid and not go on the plane again? No, I been on a small plane since, and I had to overcome that to get to be, you know, comfortable with the idea that, you know. And by the way, just like being strike twice in the same place is kind of what I say to myself. So yeah, anyway, I love that. Don’t let, don’t let fear, you know, control your life. And that’s huge for anyone and everyone, not just for lawyers.
Ben Chiriboga [20:32]
Yeah, look, it’s in my own sense. You know, it was fear about, let’s say, you know. And where does fear come from? Fear is largely a survival. So I studied biology before I went into law school. It’s largely evolutionarily John, and you do the famous example, you know you’re not going to get attacked by a tiger as soon as you walk out, right? And but unfortunately, we have the same brains that we did almost 100,000 years ago, and so these fear responses are sort of baked in effectively. It’s a survival mechanism that has gotten us to this point in time. But it goes further than that. You know, today’s fear is largely around the idea of insecurity, the idea of will people respond if I say something that is in line with my own beliefs, then this manifests things in like over people pleasing, which eventually just leads to burnout, because you’re basically betraying yourself in this in this sense. And so this is all very, very difficult, and it manifests itself in a lot of what you’re doing. The big take of this is, and I can say this very directly, it’s after interviewing so many people about this legal life. Basically what they come up is like some way, somehow you’re going to have to face your fear. Either reality will come crashing on you and you’ll have to face it, or the other side, which you know is difficult, which is you work with the fear, you sort of put yourself through this, right? But there’s no getting around it. There’s no getting around it.
Steve Fretzin [21:56]
Well, embrace the suck, right? Ben, you got to embrace the suck.
Ben Chiriboga [21:59]
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Steve Fretzin [22:01]
You know. And so how do you get to the other side of anything you know? You have to face it, and you have to get through it, a tough conversation, changing a job, starting a business. I mean, don’t go into things, you know, haphazardly, but go into things intelligently and with confidence and knowing that you’ve done the work to set yourself up to be successful. You know, don’t start a business and just say, hey, tomorrow I’m going to quit my job and start a business doing whatever like that’s not the fear, that’s not fear, That’s stupidity. So I think it’s a combination of things that help you overcome the fear, maybe talking to people that have done it before, right? That have started businesses, like you and I, whatever, but that we’ve got to find a way through around it, and then no doubt about that. Let me move on to one that has been a reoccurring theme on this podcast, and in my new book, The be that lawyer top rainmakers. It’s really about, and you said this earlier, it’s about authenticity. You know, the idea that, you know that we need to stand apart from the crowd, and if we’re just like everybody else, how is that helping us build a business? How is that helping us, you know, be successful and be memorable in our careers? So I would just say that you know, if you’re afraid to show your real if you’re if you’re the worst person, then, yeah, hide yourself. But if you’re a great person like you and me and others that we work with, you gotta, you gotta shine. You have to have a way of letting people know a that you’re great at what you do, but also that you’re real and that you’re somewhere else they can that they can identify with okay. Thoughts on that.
Ben Chiriboga [23:31]
Totally it’s got many thoughts. The reality is, does come back to fear. And like I sort of mentioned, you know, fear can fear doesn’t a lot of high performing people who are great at what they do are largely driven by fear, except it doesn’t look like they’re hiding underneath their death instead, which was the case in myself, you know, having to grapple with my fear. It one eye, repressed that I was afraid. And then secondly, I over did it, you know, overdrive everything was over driven to perfectionism. I mean, whatever your sort of thing that you push yourself to perfectionism, people pleading, going above and beyond. You know, being way too malleable, whatever it is, you know, it doesn’t look like you hiding underneath your desk. One big is often lack of authenticity. You know, you’re basically mirroring people constantly in terms of what what is, because basically, you are afraid that there’s something about you that is not good enough, as it were, and yet, at the same time, in the long game, authenticity is the only way that you can sort of play with on the long game one because fear, even though it’s super motivating, obviously, right? When you’re afraid and the tiger is running. You’re going to run so so fast, you know? And it is highly motivating, but at the end of the day, it’s just you’re going to end up in gutter authenticity, which is another saying, another way of saying, living from a value system, living from an identity that is not based on other people’s let’s say value of you is the only way. That you’re going to sort of like go as far and in some sense, the last thing is authenticity trades at a very high premium today, because it attracts people to you in a world where you can attract a lot of attention because of the certain environment and platform that we’re living in today.
Steve Fretzin [25:15]
Yeah. So great man. And I know we could probably go on for another half an hour, but we’ve got to kind of slowly wind down. Here we are starting a new segment, Ben, and you are the person that is going to help me with this new segment. And I keep changing the name, and I haven’t know that it’s perfect yet, but I’m calling it Ben’s big mistake. And is there one mistake that you can identify in your career leading up today, like, if you could have made made a different choice? And I know all things lead bad choices lead to where we are today, right? We all have that. But if there was one thing you could have done differently that would save others from following in in a bad footstep, what would it be?
Ben Chiriboga [25:49]
You know, I’ll put this. I have this as like a mental bumper sticker, which is it goes like this, don’t pathologize, mythologize. And what I mean I’ll break that up is largely earlier. I used to think there was something inherently wrong, because I either made mistakes, there was something to fix. In a sense, I understand, basically now I see the world a lot more about sort of development and growth and sort of being on a trajectory a story. If I could piece this together really, really tight, you know, I started with my quote being, we don’t come into the world, we come out of the world. Largely, I had lived my life without controlling about trying to do things, about trying to get action going. And in some sense, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve started to try to balance the fact that, yes, yeah, do things, but at the same time, ride the wave of what’s sort of happening at the at the same point in time, if I can fast forward, you know, now I run a podcast called this legal life, which is largely about it’s, you know what? It’s a big story. It’s a big journey that we’re sort of on. Every single person’s life is intimately unique to them, and yet we all go through the same story. So there’s this paradox, which is, we’re all on the same journey and doing it completely different. So in that way, you know, all of this is kind of whatever has happened to you know, you could pathologize yourself. You could say, I don’t do this. I need to work on this. But in some sense, yeah, that’s true. And also it’s kind of a big story that you’re on. It’s a big journey.
Steve Fretzin [27:19]
Basically, and you let things unravel or unreveal themselves as they go, and don’t try to necessarily push a rope or try to force something. Yeah, that’s a lot of it. Wonderful. Well, let’s take a moment. Thank our sponsors. We’ve got the be that lawyer book everybody, 101 top rainmakers, secrets to growing a successful law practice. You’re going to want to check that out on Amazon. And again, I’m thrilled that this podcast was able to lead to such a fantastic book. And of course, we’ve got pimcon coming up in October. If you’re in personal injury, you’re going to want to attend that. And of course, the law her podcast. Shout out to Sonia, running a great podcast, helping women and and just about anybody that wants to listen can get great value from it. So check those out. And Ben, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about this legal life. Or nexel, what are the best digits to find you.
Ben Chiriboga [28:07]
Sure. So one hit me up on LinkedIn and connect with me. You know, I’m pretty active on there. I’m always publishing a lot of these ideas, fleshing them out. If you’re on there, you can also subscribe to the newsletter, and that’s kind of like the best way to follow up and go deep on this kind of career track. Check out this legal life, wherever you listen to to podcasts. And then finally on nexl. Really simple. Nexl, n, e, X, L, we are a legal CRM really focused on helping lawyers, marketing and business development come together to nurture client relationships. Client relationships are the last distinguishing factor that most lawyers and law firms have today. You have to nurture them. You have to be intentional about them, and in the long run, that’s really sort of the fuel that that can help you go so any XL, just Google it, and you’ll get there.
Steve Fretzin [28:54]
Awesome, awesome, awesome. Hey, man, thanks so much for coming on the show sharing your wisdom. And you know, getting a little deeper than some people do. I mean, just from a standpoint of your life, and just the way that you see things, in the way that you take in information and dissect it, and the way that you’ve led your legal life. So kudos to you on that. And we’ll have, we’ll have to have you back sometime soon.
Ben Chiriboga [29:14]
Appreciate it, man, let’s shoot some hoops. And yeah, for anybody else, for anybody else who you know, at the end of the day just thinking about their legal life, you know, it’s today is we live in the best time? I think so, you know, really sort of like strap up and thanks for all the work you do. Steve. I really appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin [29:30]
Awesome, man. My pleasure. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Ben and I today for the be that lawyer podcast, helping you be that Rainmaker that you can be. Thanks everybody. Take care. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.
Narrator [29:45]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the late. Legal, business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.