Bill Himmelstein: Givers Gain Philosophy of Networking

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Bill Himmelstein discuss:

  • Building relationships in a transactional industry.
  • Having focus on who and how you are helping others.
  • The 3 Keys to Finding a Good Networking Partner.
  • Giving with a purpose to expand the pie.

Key Takeaways:

  • Networking is rooted in a philosophy of giving to gain.
  • Search for networking partners whose values align with yours. Take the time to qualify those you are networking with.
  • “Anyone” is not a good client for anyone. Be specific as to who your target client is.
  • Network with those who are trusted advisors to their clients. If there is no relationship, they likely don’t have the ear, trust, or confidence of their clients.

“What givers gain means is finding people that you believe can support you back and give to them.” — Bill Himmelstein

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Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Bill Himmelstein, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Bill Himmelstein  [00:00]

But the concept that they teach and preach really and promote is called givers gain. That’s when things really started to turn around for me and what givers gain means is find people that you believe can support you back and give to them.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Real quick, everybody, we’ve got to be that lawyer live Coach’s Corner coming up on December 9 at 10am Central time, we’ve got the amazing Sharon V, Steve Sackler, David akard, and Gary Johnson, all of whom have been on my show to answer your toughest legal business development questions. And we’d love for you to come and join us. At that time, you can either email me directly at [email protected] or check out the show notes below for the Eventbrite invitation. Hope to see you there. Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. As the host mentioned, listen another opportunity to be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and if you’ve been listening to the show for a couple episodes, or for a long time now, you know, this is all about helping you to be your best self. And whether that’s you know, health and wellness, whether that’s time management, learning, networking, best practices, they’re all you know, learnable skills, changeable skills that you need to be successful in your career. And again, it’s not just about billable hours and about, you know, just making money. I think you want to have balance, you want to you know, spend time with your family. I was just telling Bill, you know, Bill,



well, thank you. Just tell them


Steve Fretzin  [01:57]

Bill, I’m gonna take a short day today, my kid out from a couple periods of school and take him fishing. And, you know, that’s the kind of stuff that life’s all about. So yeah, I’m gonna work hard today. But guess what, I can also, you know, beautiful day here in Chicago in November, which no one understands it’s other than the scientists with global warming, that it’s 70 degrees today in November. So I think you know, to take advantage of a day like today makes sense. I’ve got Bill waiting in the wings. I’m gonna introduce him in a minute. I want of course, thank our wonderful sponsors, we’ve got money Penny, doing the live reception. So you can you know, get rid of those phone trees and maybe stop paying expensive receptionist and higher money, Penny. We’ve got legalese taken all the social media and the newsletter and the website, stuff off your plate, and of course, practice Panther, who’s helping you automate through their practice management systems. And they’re amazing. Bill Himmelstein is the CEO of tenant advisory group. And Bill, I want to just bring up your quote, I told you right before we started, finally, somebody sent me something funny. So let me say the quote now that I want to ask you why you brought it up. Never blame someone else for the road you’re on. It’s your own asphalt.


Bill Himmelstein  [03:06]

Your own fault that I screwed that up. And I screwed up the punch line. No, that was perfect. I mean, for me, it’s just about not complaining or looking for excuses. It’s, we all control our own choices, right? We have the power to choose. Yeah. So we can choose what Ray road we go down, choose whether we’re happy or not. There’s a lot of things that the power to choose, empowers us with and so I just when people start complaining, oh, well, there’s this problem or that problem or this problem? As I look, man, you choose what you do. You can’t complain. Yeah. That’s That’s why people complain about the weather in Chicago. I’m like, Hey, man, you don’t have to live here. You know, it’s a choice. Don’t have 110 degrees summers every day. You know, you choose? Yeah. You know, there’s


Steve Fretzin  [03:57]

a funny thing about pointing when you point at someone else, you’ve got four fingers pointed back at you. Have you ever heard that before? Like you put it like you’re shooting somebody four fingers are pointing at you do your own asphalt. Anyway, Bill, we’ve known each other for how long my friend it’s been. It’s been a wild ride. I want to say like 15 years. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And you’ve been, you’ve been someone that I’ve admired, and you’re a prolific networker, and you and I just have done a really good job of not, you know, just staying in touch and just kind of, you know, hanging out in similar circles. And I’d love for you to share your background with everybody in the commercial real estate space and leading into, you know, our topic today, which I think we’re going to talk about networking, but yeah, give us give us the Reader’s Digest on you.


Bill Himmelstein  [04:42]

You got it, Steve. And I gotta say, it’s also been enjoyable following you and your career and just the trajectory you’ve been on. It’s always you know, I’m always rooting for people right. And it’s nice to see other people succeed because I’m a firm believer in a rising tide lifts all boats and so here we are. 15 years later. are on your podcast. It’s just really fun and exciting to me. But, you know, 22 years ago, I graduated college. And one of the firms that came to interview at our campus was a commercial real estate firm specializing in tenant rep brokers. I had no idea what that was what they told me, I liked, you know, you’re gonna be working with CEOs, CEOs, founders, owners of companies, I thought, well, that’s a great network to have. They said, you’re going to be negotiating their second largest expense, their real estate. And I said, Well, that sounds like a, you know, exciting thing to be working on such high dollar items, line items and a company’s budget. They said, You know, we don’t care. When you come and go, you’re judged solely on your production. And I thought, well, that’s a very fair way to be judged. It’s not about office politics, it’s about production. Perfect. That’s how I can rally and work hard and get motivated is not by trying to get somebody you know, to think I’m doing well, but to actually work hard, and do well, then you make more money. And they said the Commission’s are going to be generally pretty sizable, which of course, I liked that idea. And then they planted the hook. And the hook was perfect for young, stupid people like me. And they said, Oh, by the way, you’ll probably fail at this. And what they want, are the stubborn, hard headed folks like me that says, oh, no, you can’t tell me I’m gonna fail, I’m going to show you I’m gonna prove you wrong. That’s exactly what they want. They wanted someone to prove them wrong. So of course, I accept the job, all my buddies are taking gigs that are paying 6070 $80,000 a year in accounting, and finance gigs and consulting gigs. And me, I call my dad and I said, Dad, I’m going to be making negative $24,000 a year, they’re gonna pay me a draw, but I have to pay back. And true to form my father, who’s just and my mom has been so supportive my whole life, just said, Hey, this is what you think is right for you. Do it, go for it. And so I did. And what I found, Steve, is that I really enjoyed the work in terms of once you had a client, and finding the right office space for them, or industrial space, and then negotiating the business terms of the lease or purchase agreement. What I didn’t like was their method of sales, cold calling. Yeah, all they would tell you is cold call cold call calling. It’s a numbers game, the more smile and dial, smile and dial dial. And I was great at it. But I hated it. Because, as you well know, see, at the end of every day that you call call, you’re back at zero. Because you’re not building relationships, you’re not building anything tangible. All you’re doing is interrupting and disrupting these busy executives hoping you’re going to catch them when they actually have the need. And I was literally taught if they don’t have a need, in two years or less, get off the phone. And that’s what ended up getting me the idea of well, why can’t I talk to these people in advance of a transaction? Why can I use that time to build trust, to build a relationship to bring them value through referrals or, you know, good connections for them. And that’s kind of what led me to, to was It was July of 2008. You know, I’ve been working for these bigger companies for eight years. And I always knew I wanted to go off on my own. But once I realized that, these bigger firms, they don’t have any time for networking and connecting and relationship building. It’s all transactional, right? I get it. We’re compensated on a transactional basis. But I always felt if you could turn that transactional business, into a relationship business, you’d have a much more sustainable organization. You know, every member every year, prior to starting my own company, you’re at zero, you have no idea how the year is gonna do. You’re just really hoping to get lucky, you know, oh, if I make more phone calls, cold calls, I’ll get more meetings, if I get more means I’ll get hired on more opportunities. But I wanted more stability. I wanted more predictability. And for me that stability and predictability and really sustainability came in the form of meaningful relationships, and networking, right. And networking Hunter says


Steve Fretzin  [09:29]

as the direct be that lawyer tipping point, moving from one method of prospecting, which is inefficient, and luck plays a role in a fish, you know, in your phone voice and all that to relationship driven business. So how did you make that transition? Because that for many people, and there’s a lot of lawyers that are doing let’s say nothing to grow business and they realize networking is an avenue, but it’s terrifying because now they’re putting themselves out there. It’s like, you know, walking up to a girl in a bar. Aren’t you know you’re putting that risk out there that she might say no, or that it’s not going to go your way? I guess similar to cold calling, but how is networking different? And how did it work for


Bill Himmelstein  [10:08]

you? Yeah, no, that’s a really good question. And of course, you know, I’ve been learning continuously through my 14 years since I’ve been networking. And I really feel to me, a lot of people think networking is go to an event with lots of people and see how many cards you can pass out. And I learned quickly, early on that that is not the right answer. For me. It’s rooted in a philosophy that I actually learned at BNI, Business Network International, which I would really describe as more of a lower level b2c networking group. But the concept that they teach, and preach really and promote is called givers gain. That’s when things really started to turn around for me. And what givers gain means is, find people that you believe can support you back and give to them find out what they need, find out who they’re trying to get in front of, put them in front of those people, find out what challenges they’re having in their business, and support them in solving those issues. But really, it was all about adopting that givers gain mentality. And again, I do want to stress it’s about adopting that mentality with people that you believe can either give back to you whether it’s in the form of becoming a client, or becoming a referral partner.


Steve Fretzin  [11:32]

No, let’s stop there. Because I think this is like a really critical conversation and point to stop and take a breath. Because what happens is people feel that they have to go out and network. And this is what I did, I went out and networked and helped everybody selflessly, which is what the books and givers gain and all that says to do, and then it comes back to you in the form of karma, it comes back to you in the form of, of you’ve helped enough other people they’re going to help you. The problem is, it was done for me without intelligence, without processing intelligence. So therefore, a lot of my time was was great from a standpoint of karma building and helping others. But to your point, it wasn’t focused on prospective clients, it wasn’t spent on prospective strategic partners that were aligned with me in a way that made it easy for them to refer me versus very difficult. And it’s so like, rare random that they could ever find someone for me, they’re never going to come across it. I think that’s what you’re getting to and maybe elaborate on further. But that I think is a big point that people miss in thinking about givers gain and thinking about how to be efficient with their time.


Bill Himmelstein  [12:41]

100% I’d love to address that, you know, look, we’re both running for profit businesses, right? But even not for profit businesses, organizations still focus on a specific contingent constituency that they’re trying to support. Right, they’re still focused on getting to the people that they’re trying to provide an impact on. And so, from the capitalists perspective, right, the for profit perspective, it’s not about being Mahatma Gandhi, or Mother Teresa and just walking the streets. How can I help you? Who can I help? Yes, that certainly brings good karma and good social capital. For the end of the day, we are running a business, that for it to continue to exist, needs to have profit. And so you know, what I learned and taught myself early on, because you write all the books, you say, go out and help, go help people. But there’s got to be more focused, more strategy to that, for sure. My strategy came in the form of what I now call the three keys to finding a good networking partner. Alright, so this is not just anybody, the key the three keys to finding a good networking partner number one, do you share similar values with that person? Meaning, do you respect them and who they are, and feel comfortable putting your name next to theirs? Because essentially, you’re gonna be putting those people in front of those in your network. And so you want to make sure that they’re not? Well, I sure don’t want to offend anybody here. But, you know, let’s, as long as their values align with yours, you can probably be comfortable,


Steve Fretzin  [14:15]

right? But we’ve been we’ve all made that misstep bill of meeting someone and jumping the gun. And I used to do this quite a bit. In fact, I did it to my sister. I met a lactation consultant. At the same time she had had a baby and somehow weirdly, unusually weird that I knew that she had told me she’s having trouble breastfeeding. I don’t know if that’s a weird thing between a brother and sister I think so. And so I introduced her to this lactation consultant after just meeting her for two seconds in a networking event and put two and two together thinking I was the master networker. Turns out she was a lactation Nazi. And she went in and told my sister, you’re killing your child. If you don’t breastfeed, and you’re a horrible mother, my sister called me crying. So bad news is what you just said is right on I didn’t take the time to qualify and to really make sure our values align. The good news is I have the story that I’ve been telling for years about his lactation, that’s a, hopefully, you know, I’m sure she’s not in business anymore, because she was a horrible person. So but that is so true about the values and making sure that they’re likable, they’re trustworthy, and that you guys have similar value systems, you’re spot on,


Bill Himmelstein  [15:21]

you know, and then we can use that example. Like, if you meet a Nazi that wants to kill all Jews and minorities, maybe that’s not the best person to be planting your flag with saying, hey, I want you to meet this person, they can be the greatest attorney in the world. But if they’re going to reflect poorly on your reputation, you cannot put them in front of people in your network. Yeah, I’m really, really important right now, Ricky, partner, is, do you share similar clients? Meaning, are you well, if I say, a good client, for me as a small and medium sized business owner, whereas the person I’m talking to says a good client, for me is fortune 500, we’re not going to necessarily have overlapping networks, they’re not going to be complimentary. So you know, or big thing a big red flag for me is if someone says a good client, for me is anyone, well, anyone is not a good client can be anyone is not a good client for you. Anyone is not a good client for most attorneys, right? So you have to have alignment on who you’re trying to get in front of, or else, it’s not going to be a successful relationship.


Steve Fretzin  [16:28]

You’re not going to the third until I say it’s time to go to the third young man. All right, No, I’m joking. But But I do want to stop, and I want to talk about the similar clients. And one of the challenges that I think lawyers have, is in the, what I call that, you know, essentially the coaching process. So I know what clients I work best when you don’t know what clients I work best with. And you’re just gonna guess, I think I probably need to spend a few minutes, you know, I need to know who my targets are. So I can share that with you. Because if you understand it, then we’re both in a place where we can talk through your contacts. Because the biggest one of the biggest challenges people have is they say, Hey, let’s think about it. Let’s give it some time. And let’s, you know, we’ll talk in a few weeks, or we’ll keep our eyes open. That’s the death of networking. We need to do it while we’re together. So if you said to me, Steve, look, I’m meeting I’m looking to meet managing partners of this size firm on the low end, five on the high end, 50. That’s the small the mid market I’m interested in, and I’m looking to meet the person that’s running the firm. Okay, now I’m starting to go through a list in my head of the 1020 30 managing partners that I know, then you may even have to go further and say the ones that you think would be open minded to meeting someone like me when they already maybe have representation, but because it comes from you, and you have the kind of relationship that they’re going to be open to it. So now we’re working through not just the profile of the person, but maybe the attitude or mentality of the person might come into play. How are you helping me to help you? Yes, and you’re,


Bill Himmelstein  [18:01]

you’re smiling again. Another lesson learned from BNI, which taught givers gain was to be as specific as possible about your target audience who you’re trying to get in front of, because when you do say to somebody, you know, good referral for me, Steve is anybody? Well, you know, lots of anybody you might know 10,000 anybody’s Yep. But it’s really hard to pick out any one of those anybody’s, unless someone’s, once you start to apply some details and some parameters. And, you know, this is exactly who I’m looking for. Now, all of a sudden, you’re gonna have 234 people pop into your head, go, oh, this is exactly who this guy is describing. Now I’ve got a much greater benefit, because you actually have found four people that fit who I’m trying to meet, versus racking your brain to try and come up with anybody that makes sense. Yeah.


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Steve Fretzin  [20:23]

And I would also just add, one of the ways to find similar clients, or to find business owners or networkers that are in the same industry that you’re in. So for me, you know, Brad barking at me broker or my friends at practice Panther money, Penny legalese, Jonathan Rothstein right here in Chicago, the mazing. Banker, well, who’s he dealing with every day? Who are these people’s clientele? Well, they’re lawyers, they’re law firms. So those are the people that I want to meet and focus on. And that’s one of the reasons the podcasts are great. I’m meeting all the top players in the country around the world actually, that have lawyer clients to network with. So think about that as well, that are you putting yourself in front of the people that share the same, you know, clients, so financial planner, estate planner, right, they’re dealing in finance, they’re dealing with people maybe of wealth, and one person’s handling one piece of it in someone else’s handling the other piece of it. And that’s going to make a potentially better connection than some random, you know, doctor or accountant that isn’t, you know, even in the same


Bill Himmelstein  [21:27]

space 100%. And by the way, all this is designed to save you time. So you’re not focusing and chasing people down a rabbit hole, that’s not going to lead to anything. Instead, you’re focused on people that you know, can reciprocate. And that’s the key. You’re trying to find people that can reciprocate, because you’re not just blindly giving. For the sake of karma. You’re doing it for a purpose, which is to grow your business, you want to get more clients coming in. That’s your purpose. Right? Right. And we hope and when you


Steve Fretzin  [22:02]

help others, and they help you, everybody can feel good about it. It’s not a taking greed, play. I mean, yes, I’m out for me. At the end of the day, I need business, ultimately, you need business. But we understand that it’s not like we’re, you know, being secretive and tiptoeing around it. I mean, ultimately, that’s the game we’re playing. And we, but we can feel good about helping each other and trying to get each other in front of the right people. Because everybody can win. If it’s done properly. Everybody can win your meeting, a managing partner, the managing partner has a need or may fall in love with you and say, Look, there’s much better than the guy was used. And I feel good that I made a mutual connection that was appealing to everybody can win if it’s done. Right. And that’s really important. So I love that.


Bill Himmelstein  [22:46]

Yeah, to to your point, Steve, I remember working for these bigger firms, and the way they would motivate you is they yell at you. Himmelstein, how are you going to get your piece of the pie? How are you going to get a bigger piece of the pie, and they want you to respond by saying more cold calls, yeah, I’m gonna die all day long. And in their minds, the pie is finite. So to get more you have to take from someone else, you have to take a piece of their pie, so you get more pie. And what you and I are talking about Steve is making a bigger pie, it’s about supporting each other, I want to support the growth of your business. So you’ll do the same for me. And that’s how we expand the pie. And that really was the biggest takeaway for me when these other companies, they look at things as a fixed mindset, you and I look at things with a growth mindset. And there’s a big difference.


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

Yeah. And that’s, that, again, goes back to the first point where you have to share those similar values. Because if you if you’re sending in an expert, and you’re sending in someone with a terrific personality, and someone that you know, is going to get along well with that client or that contact. Again, every you know, the email back to me is going to be Steve, thank you so much for introducing me to bill while he really he asked questions we had never thought of before. He’s you know, he’s definitely, you know, heads and tails above the person we were using up till now. You know, it was kind of new in the business or was just kind of old school. And so everybody’s again, winning in that scenario. So what’s your third, your third point? Because I’ve been holding off on it, I want to hear it.


Bill Himmelstein  [24:16]

Well, I know a lot of pressure on this one. But number three, and this is the toughest one to find out. But it can be discovered with just a few simple questions. Does that person you’re networking with serve as a trusted adviser to their client. So you know, you share similar values, you know, they’ve got similar clients. The question is, when they make an introduction, will the other person respond? Right. So, for example, I had a partner who we share similar values. We shared similar clients, but his role was simply as a cold call or a lead generator. And once the meeting was secured, someone else handled the meeting. And then after the meeting, someone else handled the client relationship as So when this guy would make introductions, people have time didn’t even know what they had no clue who the guy was. So it’s like, that’s not beneficial. I liked you. And I know you’re working with clients and I want to work with. But there’s no benefit to you making an introduction to me because your clients don’t respond, because they’re not actually your clients to the company’s clients, or they’re someone else’s clients. And so the key question there is, really, it’s as simple as what is your role with your clients. Because that’s what we’re trying to trade on is relationships, we’re trying to trade on the trusted relationships we have with our clients, that I can put them in front of you. And you can take the trust relationships you have with your clients, and put them in front of me. And our clients are both gonna respond positively. Because they care about us, they trust us, we’ve got a good relationship with them. And so you’ve got to find somebody, you know, and I use the example again, from Bing, I, there were a lot of blue collar folks, painters, hairdressers, HVAC guys, you know, they don’t. Now granted, you could ask your HVAC guy and say, Hey, do you have a good electrician? Do you have a good drywall guy? Do you whatever. And then you can trust that there might not might know this, but do you think that your plumber is going to go to somebody and say, Hey, I’ve got a great real estate broker or a great attorney, I want you to meet, it just doesn’t care the same way. But if you talk to that guy’s wealth advisor, or their banker, or their accountant, or their attorney, you know, if you don’t have a trusted relationship with your attorney, your accountant and your banker, that’s not going to be a successful relationship. So, and there’s, of course, there’s other folks, I think you’re a great example, because you have really strong relationships with your clients, they have to trust you and buy in to what you’re teaching them, or else it’s not going to be successful. Right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, okay, sorry, keep going? Well, so that’s really the key is making sure that the person you’re aligning yourself with actually has the ear, and the trust and the confidence of their clients. Otherwise, when they make an introduction, it’s just going to fall by the wayside because people won’t care.


Steve Fretzin  [27:13]

Yeah, and I’ll give you a quick example from and this is statistically backed up from a from a report done through I think Wolters Kluwer a few years ago, a year or two ago, but 25% of general counsel’s are willing and open minded to meeting new lawyers, if they’re introduced in through a trusted advisor, through their through a lawyer or through someone that they know that they trust. So it’s in, they’re open to changing, you know, we’re adding law firms and all that, most lawyers don’t realize that they just think, hey, they’ve got counsel. So they, they’re not going to want me and I we could say the same about, you know, coaches, we could say the same thing about, you know, commercial real estate, but the truth and the reality is that if you have the kind of relationship where you’re advising your client, your trusted, you’re acting more as a counselor than a lawyer, for example, then they’re going to be open to taking fresh introductions at your request, because they know it’s in their best interest and that you’re going to put good people in front of them. So that’s where we need to flip our mindset about it and think about, you know, that that, you know, when they trust you, yeah, they’re going to be more open to giving you context and also receiving context.


Bill Himmelstein  [28:18]

You’re spot on Steve. And then I think the next step of finding those good networking partners is about the apps. Right? And for number one, I always want to give before I ask, what you’ve got, you have to ask are, no one’s going to just voluntarily sit at home and think, Boy, Bill Himmelstein has helped me so much, what a great guy, I gotta give back to him, let me see if I can come up with some good people for him to meet, no one’s gonna do that.


Steve Fretzin  [28:48]

That’d be bad. So that’s a one out of a million scenario, correct? Not


Bill Himmelstein  [28:51]

a million. But if you can say to them, and my tool that I use is LinkedIn Sales Navigator, I can search someone’s connections through a set of criteria, including criteria come up with on my own, but, you know, size of business, title, industry, location, all sorts of factors. So I can then go and say, Steve, here are the eight people I found in your network of 8000. That I think it’d be perfect for me to meet. And then I say, I don’t say, can you introduce me, I say, How well do you know that this comes back to the point you just made? Because I might have 20 different people that knows that know, the same person, you know, I want to get to the person that has the best relationship. And so you might say, well, I met this person once, five years ago, he was gonna hire me didn’t we haven’t spoken since. But if I can ask those other 20 people that know the person to say how well do you know them and someone’s gonna say, they’re my neighbor. We hang out all the time. He’s my best friend. He’s my college roommate, whatever that Do I want the introduction from? Yeah, is the person that super tight? And so I think, number one, we need to ask, we need to find out who those people that person knows that we want to meet, ask them how well they know them. And for the ones that they know very well, those are tremendous introductions. For the ones they don’t know very well see if you have other mutual connections that can introduce you. And if not, then you go back to No introduction to me, is better than a cold reach out. So even if you’ve only met once, a long time ago, at least it shows that person that you’ve got someone willing to go to bat for you, and say, Hey, I’m taking time out of my day, to introduce this person. I still think the introduction was further than a cold call.


Steve Fretzin  [30:43]

Well, not only that particular step further, I don’t know if you get these, but I get these email introduction, Steve Meade, Fred, Fred, meet Steve, I know you both, I think it’d be great for you to meet, I have zero interest in meeting Fred, Fred is a distraction from my time a distraction from my life, he’s got insurance to sell somebody, he’s putting me on the spot, and I don’t appreciate it. Okay, and you guys don’t either that are listening right now. It’s what I try to teach my clients and work on with them day in and day out is you need to qualify, not only that someone knows somebody that they’re willing to speak with them by email, or by phone or zoom, to talk you up and to see if they’re interested in open minded to taking that meeting. So I you can, we can identify that I’ve got someone that I know well, and you want to meet them, that’s great. And I can make an email introduction. But if you now have to follow up 234 times, and they’re not responsive, who’s winning in that scenario, you’re chasing after a ghost, I feel bad that it didn’t work out. And that person, eventually if they do talk to you is going to feel guilty that they blew you off four times. So take the time to make a quality introduction for somebody set it up for success. And then once that’s been agreed to, then take the time to do that email introduction, then everything’s gonna go better. And it’s never perfect. Not always perfect. But it’s like gambling in Vegas, I’d rather go in counting cards at 80% than just, you know, trying my luck at 40%. Right? That’s what we get to do those extra little steps that make a huge difference in getting results for ourselves and for the people we want to introduce.


Bill Himmelstein  [32:16]

Absolutely. And can I touch on something that I crossed this bridge many years ago, and I hear this especially from a lot of attorneys, and accountants and they’ll say, Yeah, but Steve, or Bill, whatever, I have to bill out, I’ve got to do work, I don’t have time to go and network and meet good people and make introductions for them. I don’t have time to do that I got to build out. My response to that is who makes more money, the Rainmaker or the paper pusher, right, the executor and also number two, who’s easier to find the Rainmaker or the executor, right. And so my thought process through that has always been, I can outsource the execution side of things, I can get very good people to do the transaction to execute the transaction. What’s very difficult, is to find the people that can go out, build relationships, and find opportunities. And so I always wanted to be that person that found the opportunities because I felt if I could build the relationships, and I could be the owner of those relationships, then I can write my own ticket, I can control my own destiny, right. I won’t be complaining about the asphalt I’m on. Well, let me


Steve Fretzin  [33:36]

roll. Yeah, but let me wrap it up, because we got to get going on the game changing book. And I think this has been amazing. But let me just wrap it up. We are either in or heading into a pretty massive recession. And people are have very short memories to 2008. And what was happening where people were losing their jobs, billable hours were down. People were that’s how I got into legal, quite frankly, it wasn’t by chance that I got pulled into it kicking and screaming because of the recession of 2008. And we’re going into something we’ve never seen before. And guess what the lawyers who have the books of business, the lawyers that have put themselves out there to grow business, they’re the ones that are safe on first base, everyone else that’s building hours and thinks that they’re they’re indestructible. That may be the case, that may not be the case, but they’re absolutely at risk. And they’re not thinking strategically in there very forgetful of what happened in 2008. So your point is right on the money. And that’s what this show is all about. If we want to come full circle about being that lawyer, it’s someone that is going to take accountability for business development as a way to maintain control and security and financial freedom within a career versus leaving things to risk. And those are the people that are going to end up going out on the road without knowing what to do without any business. Very challenging to fix that.


Bill Himmelstein  [34:53]

So accurate. And then you know, let’s just, I always heard that saying, Well, I’ve got to I actually have to Do the work and I would think, but do you not to me doing the work is about bringing in the work because then you can write your own ticket treat, you know, control your own destiny, you’re far more valuable if you can bring in the work, then doing the work?


Steve Fretzin  [35:14]

Well there’s there’s a, there’s a point of balance where someone gets to a point where they’re building enough work and bringing enough work where that transitions, but they have to be able to do both for a little while, build the hours efficiently. That’s why we also talk about like, our last show is all about SOPs and delegation. That’s why we have to become so efficient with our time so that we can build the hours and then focus on the business development. And when you build the business development to a degree, then yes, you’re starting to handoff work to associates and paralegals and and you’re starting to build that infrastructure. That’s so critical. percent bill, let’s move to your game changing book, The Secret of Shelter Island, which sounds super scary.


Bill Himmelstein  [35:57]

You know, the thing I love about this book, it’s not necessarily about business. It’s more about what my dad always refer to as the big A attitude. Right? It’s it comes back to my quote, you know, never blame someone for the road you’re on that’s your own asphalt comes down to attitude. And if you can approach things with a positive attitude classes have full growth mindset, you know, a mindset of abundance, you’re going to find yourself in a far more satisfying possession. And that can mean a lot of things, a lot of people but if you have that mindset of abundance, growth mindset, you know givers gain, if you can have the right attitude, it really will make a huge difference in your life, in your success in your relationships, all sorts of avenues. And that’s what I took away from that book. It’s really about having that that right attitude, that right mindset, yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [36:58]

well, you have it in spades, my friend. And I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. And I mean, the networking and the things you’ve learned and the conversation we had today, can’t imagine someone that’s listening to this right now hasn’t either been inspired or gotten a couple of solid takeaways that they can do, they did alter the way you’re thinking about business development and networking, in particular, to be more successful. So you know, kudos to you and your development of your business and sharing your wisdom today. Good, man.


Bill Himmelstein  [37:27]

Thanks. Likewise, Steve, I’ve been impressed with the way you do things as well. I’ve learned a lot from you over the years. So I appreciate the opportunity to be on your show.


Steve Fretzin  [37:35]

I’m very grateful for that. Yeah. Well, everybody you’re listening to to absolute studs, the networking front here, in villainized just got a good listen. Oh, we got two or three more shows we could do just on the subject, I’m sure I mean, it’s such a fun topic. And I know there’s so much learning that can happen in again, you know, whether it’s you or me or just people that really get like what networking is all about. And you know, they don’t just take the word of of a book that says you know, go out and just spend countless hours doing it. I think you and I agree that’s not really the method that works today with busy people. So listen, everybody it’s all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, everybody Be safe, be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [38:23]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes