What’s really holding your law firm back isn’t a lack of leads—it’s how you spend your time and handle the ones you already have. In this episode, you’ll learn how smart hiring, offshore staffing, and a professional intake process can free you from $10-an-hour tasks and unlock real, sustainable growth.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brett Trembly discuss:
- Mindset shift from saving to spending for growth
- Early-stage law firm struggles and first key hires
- Offshore staffing in Latin America and founding Get Staffed Up
- Broken intake systems and the client’s first experience with a firm
- Delegation, KPIs, and freeing managing partners from billable work
Key Takeaways:
- Clinging to a “safe” bank balance before hiring often traps owners in low-value tasks and slows growth dramatically.
- Hiring support—especially before you feel fully ready—is usually the only way to stop doing admin work and start focusing on higher-value activities.
- Law firms frequently don’t need more marketing; they need to fix intake and conversion so leads actually become clients.
- A professional, structured intake process signals competence, builds trust, and can transform the client’s experience from chaotic to “white glove.”
- Using KPIs, scorecards, and results-focused metrics is more effective than obsessing over every minute your remote or salaried team members work.
“Doing all the little things yourself prevents you from ever building up your money.” — Brett Trembly
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About Brett Trembly: Brett Trembly, Esq., is the founding partner of Trembly Law Firm in Miami, Florida, where he focuses on business law, franchise law, and commercial litigation under the firm’s mission of “Protecting the Economy, One Business at a Time.” He earned his Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Eastern New Mexico University in 2005 and his Juris Doctor from the University of Miami School of Law in 2008. In addition to managing his legal practice, Trembly co-founded Get Staffed Up, a virtual staffing company that provides offshore support personnel to law firms across North America, and authored books on business growth including 24 Months to Freedom and The Danger Zones. Active in the South Florida legal community, he has served as President of the Miami Kendall Bar Association and Vice-Chair of the Florida Bar 11th Circuit Grievance Committee, earning recognition as a Florida Super Lawyer and an Inc. 5000 honoree.
Connect with Brett Trembly:
Website: https://tremblylaw.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bretttrembly/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at be that lawyer.com/community. And other than that, please enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fritzen will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here is your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey, everybody! Steve Fretzin, and welcome to Be That Lawyer. This is the Pod. In fact, Brett, we are the number one podcast in the world for legal business development. You believe it? Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [01:03]
what AI and Google tell me. I, you know, yeah. So you maybe got to check, recheck my sources. But you know, the nice thing about being a niche, I’m a niche of a niche of a niche. You know, as far as what I’m doing is that you know, if I said I’m Joe Rogan, then then we got another problem. But ultimately, you know, look, this show has one focus and one purpose, and that is help people be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Brett, is this your second time on the show or third time on the show?
Brett Trembly [01:28]
I don’t remember, Steve. We’ve had so many conversations through the years, podcasts, phone calls, those types of things that I’m-I don’t know-definitely at least second.
Steve Fretzin [01:37]
All right, we’re gonna say second, maybe third, but every time you know we get together, we always make some magic. So let’s have it happen today. I know we will. And right off the bat, I’m already in love with your quote because, you know, for me with business development, you know, lawyers, you know, it’s a chicken or the egg, right? Do I invest in learning business development, or do I have to make the money to then afford to be able to pay for a coach to where he’s like,
Brett Trembly [02:00]
yeah, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [02:01]
Now chicken of the egg. So yours is you have to spend to grow, not save to spend. So welcome back to the show and tell us a little bit about that quote.
Brett Trembly [02:08]
Look, I spent my first few years running my law firm with this magic number in my head, which was $20,000. Right, I needed to get my bank account after I paid, you know, the rent and all those things myself, just build it up to 20k. This is back in 2011 when I started. You know, I don’t come from anybody in my family with money or anything like that. I couldn’t even get a line of credit. Yeah, you know, I was just like a broke former student that that had student loan debt, and I could just never build up the bank account, and I finally just hired somebody before I thought I was ready. Cause like 20 grand wasn’t gonna pay for someone’s entire year, but you think when you hire someone, there’s no turning back, and like you have to have this magic safe number. And if there’s anything wrong with having savings, certainly now we build up our war chest, you know, and invest it so we have liquid. But like doing all the little things yourself prevents you from ever building up your money because you think you’re saving money, but you’re not.
Steve Fretzin [03:11]
Yeah,
Brett Trembly [03:11]
you’re hurting every time you do spend an hour doing an admin task. You’re costing yourself whatever your hourly rate is, even if you’re PI. There’s still an hourly burn rate in there minus 15 or $20, right? So you know it’s wild.
Steve Fretzin [03:26]
Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, like, what are you paying for? Most people that are gonna pay money out, they’re they’re it’s an investment. You’re investing in a human capital. You’re investing in marketing. You’re investing in something for your business. You’re not. Hopefully, you’re not throwing it out the window, right? You’re you’re you’re making a smart decision, so. But you know, sometimes we gotta you know pay to play to get in the game, and and hopefully, you know people are saving. And look, we’re not going to talk finances and financial planning, but you know you should have some money if you can. You know, create some, do BD, do some marketing, get some money, and get that 20, 3050, grand in the bank. I know. I remember when I first started my business, and I was very fortunate. I was I was successful fairly quickly in something very new to me. But I remember when I saw $50,000 in my bank account, you know, and I was like, holy mackerel! And so I’m like, I need now. I can get an office, and I can have a training center, and I can start making some strategic investments, which you know all pay dividends. So, really cool stuff! Hey everybody, Brett Trembly is the CEO and co-founder of Get Staffed Up, and also the co-founder, founder of Trembly Law. Back as he mentioned in 2011, would love to have you share your background, people, not only in in running and starting a firm, but also in you know deciding to hey, I’m gonna I saw a problem in the market and I start I’m solving it by starting another business,
Brett Trembly [04:42]
yeah. So one of those things where, as you start a law firm, you’re constantly like, “How am I going to pay for things? Right? If I hire someone, how am I going to pay for them? And when I figured out a few years in that you could get someone for you know two grand per month if you go offshore. And there’s a whole group of people who have the same time zones as us, speak very good English, and are creatives. You know, they they work real hard, and because of the Americas, right? They share our culture, they share values, they share. You know, you can hire people that can think for themselves. When we discovered that market in Latin America, it was a no-brainer. I hired somebody from my law firm to help with marketing, and I was like, “Man, this is amazing! People need this. And I have such a pain pointer on hiring because it took me so long to do what we’ve talked about at the beginning, which is hire someone so I could stop doing $10 an hour admin tasks and I could start billing a few more hours per month, which is how you actually, you know, build up an account. That I just like, I just kind of knew, like one of those things. I wasn’t like, well, I think this could work in the league. I just knew it was going to work. Yeah. So me and my business partner started putting together business plans. We hired two people for Get Staffed Up, and then we call like friends and family. Like we made five sales just so we could cover our baseline expenses per month to pay for those two people, and we spent January of 2018 to July of 2018 building systems. And you know, it’s us almost like you rent a storefront and then you build it out before you open your doors. That’s what we were doing, and then we’re off to the races. And like I said, I kind of knew that it would be that people would need this in the market, and we were growing. We were just like any other business. We were bootstrapped, and we were getting referrals. And then COVID hit, and like the doors were blown off in a good way. Like everybody needed to hire. They needed to hire cheap. So
Steve Fretzin [06:40]
well, and the thing is, there used to be a sort of a stigma about, oh, you got to hire American, you got to bring an American this, American that, and it’s like a lot of jobs. Like these are there are people that are highly qualified to do these jobs that actually want them, as opposed to you know some people who are asking for three times as much and and really don’t want them. So I love what you do. I’m a huge fan of that, and I’m constantly, constantly beating up my clients in the nicest way about what they’re doing with their time and the things that they’re doing that are paralegal work, even associate level work. And so I really want to take a dive with you into how you did scale up and build up. And I think one of the toughest challenges we’re having right now is there’s just a lack of good associates out there, and you know how you find you know recruiting and hiring and onboarding and building good culture. What are some of the key things that you’re seeing right now in the marketplace that are stalling law firms from scaling?
Brett Trembly [07:35]
You know, Tony Robbins has a quote I’ve always loved. It’s that 80% of the hangup in any business is the mindset of the owner, and that’s not like a black and white mindset where it’s like they should be doing this, but they’re not doing this, and it’s very clear, and everyone else can see it. Sometimes other people can see it. So if you’re trying to be a rainmaker, but you don’t know where to start, well, that’s why you have a very valuable podcast, right? As mentioned earlier in this episode, that’s why you do because you you like bringing in outside help is what allows you to see things you’re not seeing and then move forward. And in terms of of scaling a law firm, it’s really like I know quite a few lawyers who are growing very quickly and they seem to like have time and they’re happy. And then other lawyers, you’re like, just can’t figure it out, and it’s how they decide to spend their time. And that sounds so simple, but it’s: am I going to spend my time answering this phone, you know, sending this email, sending this invoice, or am I going to go to that networking meeting and I’m going to refuse to return without three business cards of somebody that I’m going to follow up with lunch and then I’m going to I’m going to have a system I’m going to send a thank you note I’m going to ask them for lunch and when I go to lunch I’m only going to speak to them no no I’m too busy for that right there’s just two different mindsets that we decide we make 100 decisions per day on what to do with our time,
Steve Fretzin [09:02]
yeah.
Brett Trembly [09:02]
And usually,
Steve Fretzin [09:03]
and not making a decision is a decision. There’s a lot of people. It’s
Brett Trembly [09:06]
indecision,
Steve Fretzin [09:07]
and that is your decision.
Brett Trembly [09:08]
Yeah, indecision is worse than than a bad bad decision used for reverse course, right?
Steve Fretzin [09:12]
Yeah, yeah. So it’s just incredible the amount of 510, $20 an hour work that lawyers who are billable at you know 400 to $1,000 an hour doing, and I think part of it is they don’t recognize in the moment what’s happening. And so one very simple thing that they should be doing is just track your day. Like just figure out every you know
Brett Trembly [09:34]
that’s it.
Steve Fretzin [09:34]
Submitted increments, 15 minute kilometers, right? Like figure out what are you doing all day. I want to hear it. Let’s all day.
Brett Trembly [09:41]
Listen, even better than that now, Steve. Just get one of those little AI recorders.
Steve Fretzin [09:45]
Oh yeah.
Brett Trembly [09:45]
Stick it in your pocket. At the end of the day, just plug it into whatever you know AI app you’re using or the free ones. Doesn’t matter. And say, tell me exactly what I spent my time on today.
Steve Fretzin [09:56]
Yeah. It
Brett Trembly [09:56]
it’s incredible because what I used to say for the past eight. Years is take a pen. Just it sucks, but like for three straight days, brush my teeth, write down every little thing you do, and now you don’t have to do that painstaking task. You know?
Steve Fretzin [10:10]
Yeah, yeah, I love that, and it’s eye opening. And then what we can do is we can start figuring out. Okay, so then there are things that can be delegated. There are things that can be automated. There are things that you know. Just recognize you shouldn’t be doing it all. It’s just not. It’s not your job, and or maybe it’s a hiring issue, right? Like we, like I’m doing paralegal work all day or half the day. Well, that’s so. Then you have to have these tough conversations, maybe with your owner, with your manager, or whatever, about the fact that hey, I just looked at how I’m spending my day, and you don’t even want to believe this, but this is how it’s going. Like, how am I making money for the firm this way?
Brett Trembly [10:48]
Yeah. Look, I’ll sort of add on to that, right? Which is the general experience as a consumer to work with a law firm is awful. The bigger law firms have full-time receptionists. They have a system that phones answered. They know where to pass through, right? I recently needed to hire an employment law attorney in South Carolina. Me personally, for one of the businesses, right? I made four phone calls. They were the worst four experiences I’ve had with any business anywhere. Two of them had no idea what I was asking for, which is very simple. No idea if their firm did that, and then couldn’t even tell me if I would get a call back or an answer or an email that they could do that. And I swear to you, I’m not exaggerating. The other two were answering machines. One of the answering machine told me to hang up and call back another number, which I did, because I’m like I’m really interested in this whole process, and it sent me to a different answer machine. That like I want to strangle that attorney. How can you get through law school and pass a bar and be so curse word, curse word, curse word stupid that you think that that’s a good, like, who does that? Let me let me make someone hang out the phone and call back. And if you just not even fix, if you work on your intake, I was telling a lawyer this weekend. She’s like, “Well, but if I do that, you know, what do you do for marketing? How do you get? And I said, “Well, I don’t know. Tell me, like, what’s your what are your conversion rates? She had a 40% conversion rate from sales conversation to signing on the dotted line, right? To becoming a client, and didn’t know her conversion rates from lead to opportunity and opportunity to sales call, and then she knew the 40% from sales. As like, if you just increase the front end by 5% it’ll have exponential effects on you know down the line. You don’t even need to increase your conversion rate to 40% Which, by the way, you can do that with the little. I would love to meet this person,
Steve Fretzin [12:48]
Albert, on that on that particular. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s not great.
Brett Trembly [12:51]
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That’s a great intro. So you, everyone thinks they need more marketing. They have enough marketing. I I double my firm and then double again without doing more than what I was already doing. We just have so many things that were like opportunities, cases, clients that we’re not getting to because our intake is oh man, it’s so bad. It’s a big passion of mine to help lawyers with it. It’s not like what I do full time, but you get me on that soapbox, and man, I got a lot of opinions and systems and answers on the other end.
Steve Fretzin [13:22]
Yeah, well, obviously answering the phone and having a professional do it, whether that’s our sponsor Lex Reception, everybody, or it’s an individual that works with you that has been properly trained up. Like, so what would be one key tip that would be a game changer for people on intake specifically?
Brett Trembly [13:38]
So the person answering your phone needs to be cheery, and they need to not just say law firm, or they need to know like, hey, this is Trembly Law Firm. Thank you for calling today. How can I help you? But that person should not be the one answering a bunch of questions about your firm. They should say, thank you. You know, I just need to get your name and an email, or name and a phone number, because you want to get some information, right? In case you get disconnected, but you don’t want to ask for too much, because the person’s gonna be like, “Why are you ask me 30 questions? Like, I hate, I hate that. No, I’m getting
Steve Fretzin [14:12]
grilled right at the beginning. Yeah, and
Brett Trembly [14:13]
then let me patch you through to our intake specialist, who can answer all your questions and help get the right resources for you. Just that patch over alone already in the consumer’s mind makes them think, okay, I’m talking to somebody who’s more specialized, somebody whose time is valuable enough that they don’t answer the phone. Somebody who’s probably busy, especially if the reception says, “I think I can get them for you right now. Let me double check because you know they’re very busy. Yeah, a little bit of gamesmanship there, right? You’re setting expectation, and then that person is trying to get the consumer to set up a consultation, especially in like the litigation, you know, realm with the attorney, right? Yeah, and if it’s more of a high volume, maybe that person’s actually doing. The sale, like bankruptcy, for example, or something that’s real estate, but just getting that system where nice person knows what they’re talking about, knows how to patch through. It seems like, dude, I’m listening to this podcast, and they’re talking about the most simple things ever. Go seek or shop your own firm,
Steve Fretzin [15:16]
yeah,
Brett Trembly [15:17]
and tell me that you’re you’re even an eight out of 10 on doing things the right way, because I, it’s incredible.
Steve Fretzin [15:23]
Yeah, that is it is remarkable. But you know, this is the the gap. You know, the education gap and the integ, it may be the intelligence gap between some law firms and businesses, right? I mean, if you take a business, you know, the ones that are you know coming up, you know, they’re not having these issues, right? They’ve got they know the importance of intake and sales, and making sure that the phones answer properly and everything. And law firms are like this special little breed of business that isn’t a business because it’s a law firm or you know it’s a noble profession or however direction we want to go with this. But it’s you know, but it is it’s the business of law, and you got to treat it that way.
Brett Trembly [15:58]
Yeah, yeah. You want to come across professional. You want to give people like if you’re a mess on the phone, there’s no way the consumer’s thinking. But they’re probably a great lawyer. Like
Steve Fretzin [16:08]
it
Brett Trembly [16:09]
doesn’t work that way. They’re thinking this person doesn’t know. They’re probably a train wreck, and usually that attorney is a train wreck, right?
Steve Fretzin [16:17]
Because again,
Brett Trembly [16:17]
they’re trying to do everything themselves. When I completely remove myself from intake. We man, that’s when the firm we hired one attorney and I got myself out of intake. This was 2015 when we hit a million dollars gross revenue that year for the first time. We got so much better because my time was now way more valuable than when I would get on the phone. Because early on, again, I was the guy trying to do everything. I was answering the phone, so how am I going to give you all my time on the phone and then charge you a bunch of money when I’m giving it away for free? Those things don’t add up, and it’s hard for lawyers who are good at business, like reading and analyzing, to understand the business side of it. Sometimes,
Steve Fretzin [16:57]
well, we also just have to agree that there’s intake at different levels, right? So if you’re dealing with, let’s say you’re a mid-market or large firm M and A, you’re you know you’re not having you know just some some person do your intake. Like the majority, they’re right. You you’re not getting a million calls a day. You’re the M and A attorney that’s dealing with referrals coming in from trusted resources, and you’re the one that’s gonna. No, what I’m training lawyers up on is that when you’re dealing with personal injury, bankruptcy, you know, estate planning, where things are, you know, not that the company litigation or whatever. So, but or am I wrong that you could be getting those size matters coming to you, Brad? But you’re handing it off to, you know, a third year intake specialist.
Brett Trembly [17:39]
Yeah, I lawyers should be nowhere near the intake process, just like doctors. Like, okay, if you call a doctor and they’re like, “Yeah, but I’m really specialized, so I only do heart surgery on referrals from brain surgeons, and therefore I pick up my own phone.
Steve Fretzin [17:55]
All right, well, let’s let me redefine this. So, a lawyer, a lawyer that is is getting a potential large litigation matter? I mean, it could be a million dollar plus litigation matter. They may not be the one that has to pick up the phone, but someone’s going to set up that initial consultation with them. They’re going to run that consultation. They’re not having the intake person run a big high scale right litigation matter. So,
Brett Trembly [18:20]
yeah,
Steve Fretzin [18:20]
that’s the differentiator I want to make about some intake people can actually, you know, take people through, you know, a full 2030 minute, you know, discovery and eval and all this because it’s a smaller matter and it’s right before they talk to an attorney. Other times they’ve got to get right to the attorney because it’s it’s a referral from a friend and it should go to the attorney.
Brett Trembly [18:40]
Yeah, referrals are tough because people want to be treated a little more specially. But so on litigation matters, especially big litigation matters, we’ve always found that the partner who’s going to handle the case should do that consultation. Yeah, you don’t want an intake specialist trying to sign people or anything, but that intake specialist on the phone is like you called the right place. You know this person’s amazing. You know they’re very busy. Let me grab their schedule for you right now because we’re set up as a firm for cases like yours. We have an emergency process where I get access to their schedule and then I can work with their assistant and I can get you on right now. So
Steve Fretzin [19:19]
yeah, hang
Brett Trembly [19:20]
- Like okay, next Tuesday at one, and before next Tuesday at one, there’s a follow-up phone call. There’s a follow-up email. There’s directions. You’re curating white glove process so that at Tuesday at 1o’clock, that’s the first time that this potential big case meets with the attorney, and they’re already like, man, these guys have it together. This is a big time lawyer. When the lawyer panics, he’s like, “Well, let me just get him on the phone and talk to him now. You blow the whole thing.
Steve Fretzin [19:48]
Yeah.
Brett Trembly [19:48]
And the doctor analogy, I’ve always leaned into it because it’s like before you go get an elective or maybe semi-elective heart surgery, brain surge, something like that, you’re gonna meet with the damn doctor, and they’re. Show you the scan. They’re going to say this is what we’re going to work on. Do you have any questions? That’s your consult with the doctor. Absolutely, you should. You know, the lawyer is going to need to do that before they sign on for a million dollar kick.
Steve Fretzin [20:13]
Right. I just want to make sure we clarify that because intake has a limit to you know what they’re actually doing. But the fact that the phone’s being answered, the fact that they’re getting general information, that they’re not wasting the lawyer’s time-like, let’s say they’re totally disqual-they’re disqualifiable. Like this is someone that’s a lunatic, or there’s someone that has no money, and there’s an intake specialist that can disqualify someone, move them out before waste the attorney’s time. Brilliant.
Brett Trembly [20:38]
Yeah. By the way,
Steve Fretzin [20:40]
one of yeah,
Brett Trembly [20:40]
I refer to intake as phone rings all the way until the consultation, and then when the consultation happens, I refer that as sales. So okay,
Steve Fretzin [20:49]
okay, so that’s how we’re defining. I love it. Okay, yeah, I’m with you on that. Hey everybody, your next big client might call it 8p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up with Lex Reception? A real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyerto claim your offer. That’s www.lexreception.com/partners/bethlawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s Lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io Today, one of the biggest challenges. I just want to move to managing partners for a minute. You’re one, and there’s a number of of others that are listening and future ones, and maybe someone that’s running a practice group or a lead chair or whatever. They really struggle with how to get out of doing all the work. Okay, like there’s the billable hour, business development, leadership and management, and then the 100 other hats that they may get thrown on their heads. How does someone who really likes doing the work but really knows their place should be growing the business? How do they transition from being billable to being less billable? What’s your take on that?
Brett Trembly [23:00]
We man, that that’s a 30 minute podcast because over over this is we’re coming up on our 15th year anniversary at the law firm and we’ve had some different iterations and it depends on the stage you are as a firm right and so what I did to get to a million is different than to two to six right so like there’s there’s different stages and phases, but you had to
Steve Fretzin [23:24]
kind of pick your bet. You had to kind of pick a direction, right? You have to pick the hats that are going to help you build a business. And you being billable is maybe not the best use of your time. Is that sure sort of the case? So
Brett Trembly [23:37]
as the law firm owner, I no longer own 100% of of my law firm, but you know I did for many years. And when I was growing the thing, I hired a really good litigation attorney, a really good business law attorney, and then I stepped out of the legal work. And I was very clear; I didn’t bait and switch somebody and just like, hey, surprise! Very clear. Like I’m hiring you to do this because I’m going to do this. We’re going to grow together. Those two guys, along with you know Arturo Ho Unovario, are still with me all these years later because that was the promise, and we delivered. So I stepped back. I worked on networking, and then as they grew as leaders of their own book of business, then they would do the same. They would spend less time doing legal work and more time rainmaking, so they could continually feed. But the way to do that, because the work has to get done, is you have to hire. So hiring, like you said, there’s a dearth of good associates right now. But you have to figure out, you know, how to recruit really good ones, and then have the confidence. You know, you’re you’re a managing attorney, so then you’re going to see what their work product is, and get feedback, and help that person grow. And the better they are, then the more you can step away.
Steve Fretzin [24:47]
Do you have a philosophy about hiring where you’re not under the gun? Because what I’m seeing is that people aren’t being proactive with hiring. Somebody goes on maternity leave. Somebody quits, and then it’s the partner’s responsibility, or it’s the everybody’s got to then you know, or one person get has to now take over double the workload, and like for a period of time while they scramble to try to find the next person to help out, find that associate, that paralegal, whatever.
Brett Trembly [25:18]
You know, I do see that a lot in like two or three person law firms, and like one person leaves for a month, and everyone else has to scram. I, I don’t understand why they do it that way. If you’re being proactive, other than emergencies that come out of nowhere, of course we all step up and we help. But we have a law clerk program, so we’re hiring law students who the good ones, you know, we’re probably making offers too. We’ve hired lots of people that way. We’re recruiting lawyers all the time just in case, and we create relationships with other attorneys that we can bring on on a part-time basis. I think the contract attorney is not utilized enough because there are people who just want to sit at home at work for a few firms on a contract basis, stay-at-home moms, or you know, even lots of dads don’t have kids, just want to travel, I guess. And there’s good opportunities out there to to create relationships of counsel related. Like I can’t guarantee an amount of work. Some weeks maybe 20 hours, some weeks none, but you know we do have this situation sometimes, and that really helps avoid the whole law firm scrambling to cover for one person scenario.
Steve Fretzin [26:30]
Yeah, I love the contract attorney idea, and I don’t know that law firms are being proactive in ongoing recruiting unless they need something, which I think is the wrong idea. That’s like not being proactive with your health, and then then eventually you need surgery, right? Or eventually you need something. Like why not why not be setting up your social media, your website, your your admins to be continually connecting and looking for talent? And doesn’t mean you have to hire them. It just means that now you have a relationship, and you’ve got a little bit of a stable in the wings.
Brett Trembly [27:06]
Exactly, you’re creating that relationship of 345, people. That when the time is is nigh, then you have somebody to reach out to. And if it’s four or five people, hopefully they all haven’t moved on to different, you know, full time jobs, or or they’re not too busy, right? But if you wait until the last minute, then you’re stuck with what you get.
Steve Fretzin [27:27]
Yeah. One last question. I’ve got two questions. One is my favorite question at the end of every show, but one that I want to ask you is: there’s a challenge with associates, paralegals, and admin marketing, especially with remote accountability, they’re on their own. They’re in a different place. You don’t have eyes on them. What’s one thing that an individual firm or lawyer could do to help ensure that the person’s doing the work that they’re being paid for? I mean, just just trying to trying to you know understand how that works in a virtual world.
Brett Trembly [28:03]
So lawyers and paralegals, it’s easy because it’s just billable hours, right? Even if it’s even if it’s in a contingency world, so you just ask people to attract their time for assistance, like executive assistance, legal assistance, that kind of thing. I like to not lose sleep a night wondering if I’m squeezing every little dime out of what I’m paying somebody. Now I don’t mean what some people hear and say, “Oh, I just never mind. I’ll just hire someone and won’t pay attention. What I mean is you have KPIs and a scorecard, and if the person’s hitting the metrics that you have set up for them, a salesperson, they’re making 100 calls a week. Okay, that’s a KPI. Now, what are the results? You need to look at the results as well, right? Or
Steve Fretzin [28:45]
maybe the results is the like the results are what matter. If they work 10 hours a week, but you’re wanting five, you know, 10 intakes, and they get you the 10 intakes, doesn’t matter if they made the calls. I mean, if they’re hitting, if you want 10 and they get you 10,
Brett Trembly [28:58]
that’s kind of a rub
Steve Fretzin [28:59]
too. Is like you’re wondering, am I? You know, you know. Somebody takes 100 hours. This is where AI comes in. But like, somebody takes 100 hours to get something done, and it can be done in an hour. The same exact outcome. Do you care? You know, if you pay for 100 hours or one hour, if you get the right outcome, I guess I don’t know. Is that the right way to look at it?
Brett Trembly [29:16]
If I’m paying by the hour, yeah, I certainly care, right? If I’m paying a salary, and you know I I have people who are producing, I don’t really know exactly, and I I don’t know if they’re spending 40 full hours, but they’re getting everything done. I’m asking, and they’re great attitude, and they’re on time, and like any time you send them a project, they’re responsive. Then
Steve Fretzin [29:41]
yeah, I feel great about what they’re doing. Okay, yeah,
Brett Trembly [29:44]
it’s like when you’re not getting a response and it starts to be fishy, your gut will tell you pretty quickly,
Brett Trembly [29:49]
right? But it’s not worth your headspace to be like this person kicks ass for 38 hours a week, and I want to just go kill myself next weekend of how do I fill those other two hours? Like right, right. That’s not worth your headspace. It’s not. It’s not going.
Steve Fretzin [30:02]
No, good advice. Good advice. All right. Final question. What’s Brett’s big mistake?
Brett Trembly [30:06]
Uh, man. Well, when you say the one, I don’t know if this is the one, but it’s a story I’ll try to very good lesson early on that I learned about a year into running my own law firm. Again, me myself and I, I did everything myself early on, which I wish I didn’t, and I had a friend who said, “Hey, there’s this like big time entertainment law attorney in D.C. She just needs local counsel. So local counsel means she’s doing everything. I’m just signing off on it because I’m admitted. Sorry, admitted in federal court. You know, in Florida, this is the Southern District, and that’s where we need to file a lawsuit. So yeah, she’ll do all the work, no problem. So we’re suing Casey and the Sunshine Band, and this is all public information, so it’s not like it’s confidential or anything, right? We ended up winning, so I probably wouldn’t share the story. Maybe I would if if we lost, but the amount of heartache, the amount of money I lost to get there, the being threatened by a big firm, they’re going to come after my license and my house and in federal court. Something called Rule 11 sanctions, where if you file something that’s false, you can get like in huge trouble. Federal court is like no joke, right? I learned that these are just tactics that big law does to scare and and bully smaller firms, and the amount of you know I don’t know I probably lost my hair anyway, but like the amount of the amount of stress that I had, the amount of emails at two a.m. on on a Sunday morning that I was reading instead of you know trying to enjoy my my young daughter at the time, like just not worth it. The girl that was supposed to do all the work. I was the one doing the last minute work because my, you know what, was on the line. If I didn’t file things at the last minute, it was awful. Yeah, and I learned that when you and it was on contingency. That’s why I also lost my behind on this thing. Again, we won. There was no money to win. It was more like just disproving it was over copyright, and for a guy who wrote a song, and he should have had the copyright that they ended up filing first, and so we were trying to correct this long time mistake, and it was nice to win, but it was awful. But what I learned is the war chest. Like if you’re going up against somebody with a lot of money, you better be ready for it because they can spend you into the ground, man, and that’s a horrible, horrible feeling.
Steve Fretzin [32:24]
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah. Little Aaron Brokovichy in that, right? They try
Brett Trembly [32:30]
to
Steve Fretzin [32:30]
mess with him.
Brett Trembly [32:31]
Hers was a little more worth it than mine, though.
Steve Fretzin [32:33]
Yeah, well, that’s true. Yeah, but a little bit. I didn’t get famous.
Brett Trembly [32:37]
I didn’t do anything. I just, you know, hated life. So.
Steve Fretzin [32:40]
Wow. Well, listen, man, awesome, awesome chatting with you. You know, speaking of delegation, as we have been, let’s talk to you know Lex Reception. You’re looking for a great person to answer your phone and handle that. Check out Lex Reception. Looking for a great directory to get found to get those leads in the door. Lawyer.com. And if you’re a personal injury and you’re looking for a great time and great information and a great experience. Check out PimCon coming up in October. Wonderful experience for those personal injury vendors and also for the for the lawyers. Obviously, Nikki Glaser was the keynote. She just crushed for like 90 minutes. It was amazing. Wow. Yeah, really, really worth it. I had a picture with her. I never got the picture. I got to check on that. I know my wife wants to see it, not really. So, all right, Brett. People want to get in touch with you, or they want to hear more about get staffed up and delegate their way to freedom. What are the digits there?
Brett Trembly [33:30]
I really love when people reach out to me on LinkedIn. Like, I love the cold message and questions. People are, you know, in earnest, want want help or want ideas or anything like that. So, LinkedIn, I’m very easy to find. Of course, getstaffedup.com to learn more about the offshore staffing, and I love helping lawyers figure out when you hire, good things happen.
Steve Fretzin [33:50]
So yeah, that’s that’s the way to go. I mean, this is this we’re in this world now where we’re delegating and automating and AI. Like this is our future. Let’s lean into it. So thanks for coming back on the show, man. Always a pleasure. Please tell Arturo. Shout out to Arturo that I said hello, and it was great having him hang out in my house. And you didn’t even want tequila. We went right for the bourbon together. He was a big sport about it. That
Brett Trembly [34:12]
sounds like him. Yeah, it was
Steve Fretzin [34:14]
lovely. He was lovely. And let’s have you back again soon.
Brett Trembly [34:18]
Would love that. Thanks so much, Steve. Enjoyed it as always, my friend.
Steve Fretzin [34:20]
Awesome, awesome, and hey, thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 and change. Lots and lots of great information today again about scaling, delegation, automation, things that you need to do, and you know this is an opportunity to build your, you know, build your book and own your future and be that lawyer. Everybody, take care, be safe and well. We’ll talk again very soon.
Narrator [34:44]
Thanks for listening to “Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and. Marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.