In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Haugh discuss:
- Navigating a selective legal market
- Preparing for a lateral move effectively
- Building control through specialization
- Approaching interviews with intention
Key Takeaways:
- The current recruitment landscape favors lawyers with portable books and proven client relationships. Service partners without clear revenue streams face fewer interview opportunities than before. Understanding this shift helps lawyers position themselves strategically for lasting success.
- Before making a move, gather concrete data on your clients, billables, and performance metrics. Research each potential firm to assess culture, support systems, and compensation structure. Avoid counter-offers and be ready to explain your motivation with confidence and clarity.
- Developing a focused niche and growing a book of business provides leverage and stability. Lawyers with established clients can earn up to 20% more while shaping their own trajectory. Becoming a market master turns expertise into opportunity and independence.
- Strong interviews center on curiosity, alignment, and authenticity, not just compensation. Show genuine interest in the firm’s mission while understanding its support for your growth. Preparation and presence create trust, leading to stronger and more strategic offers.
“All you got to do is focus on the next second, the next minute, the next hour, the next day, the next week-whatever it is, you don’t have to solve the world’s problems right now.” — Brian Haugh
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About Brian Haugh: Brian G. Haugh is a Partner and Senior Partner at Shapiro Legal Search, a member firm of the Sanford Rose Associates network. He helps lead the firm’s legal recruitment services, specializing in identifying top legal talent and placing senior-level attorneys who bring both technical excellence and business insight.
With years of experience in legal search, Brian’s work sits at the intersection of law practice strategy and executive recruiting. His approach emphasizes integrity, transparency, and long-term relationships, helping candidates and firms navigate complex career transitions with clarity and confidence.
Outside of his professional role, Brian is a certified private pilot and an active member of the Entrepreneurs’ Organization – Chicago. He holds a degree from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and remains committed to continuous learning and high-performance leadership.
Connect with Brian Haugh:
Phone: 312-593-0810
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here, and if you’re ready to take things the next level, you’re going to want to check out my new show, future rainmakers. This is where I’m sharing quick, powerful tips to grow your law practice faster and smarter. Check it out today. Listen. Give us a kind review. But for now, enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:20]
You’re listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host. Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:42]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin, and welcome to be that lawyer. This is the show to help you grow your law practice and be more successful, be more organized and be that lawyer. So welcome. And you know, I want to just mention I have probably have been heard too many times. I have another podcast called Future rainmakers, if you are looking to up your game and get direct advice and tips and thoughts for me and what I teach my clients every day, you’re going to want to check that podcast out. I also bring on some clients to kind of share their experiences and give you a first hand experience and knowledge about what we’re doing together. But that’s all fine and good, and I’m so excited to introduce Brian. Brian and I met through Rafi Arbel, you know, very, very good friend in the SEO and digital marketing space, Brian, how you doing today?
Brian Haugh [01:26]
Doing fantastic. Appreciate the opportunity.
Steve Fretzin [01:30]
I got to witness your slice firsthand. You’ve got a solid, solid slice that if you put it left, it’ll go down the middle, right?
Brian Haugh [01:37]
Yeah, exactly. So I took a lesson yesterday.
Steve Fretzin [01:40]
You did. That’s good. I mean, I think what I was telling my cousin is, I was playing golf with him out in Scottsdale, and I said, you know, I’m really not enjoying my swing. And he’s like, What do you mean? I said, Well, what do you think the game is? The game is enjoying the swing. If you’re not enjoying your swing, then are you enjoying golf? And he was like, Ted blew up. I was like, what he had never thought about it that way, but I think that’s, you know, that’s for everybody to figure out on their own. I guess. Let’s start off with our quote of the show. This quote is not really attributed to anyone in particular. There’s a couple people that may have said it at some point. But how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? And that’s your quote of the show. Brian. Welcome and tell us why that quote is so meaningful to you.
Brian Haugh [02:19]
Yeah. So you know, periodically, when I do get overwhelmed, and last year was a perfect example, with my son, had some some pretty significant medical issues for a four year old. And, you know, running a business life, dealing with him, things can obviously get overwhelming. And I think about things, it’s like, okay, all you got to do is focus on the next second, the next minute, the next hour, the next day, the next week, whatever it is, you don’t have to solve the world’s problems right now. So that’s why I said, How do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Or stole the quote from someone that I don’t know.
Steve Fretzin [02:54]
Desmond Tutu, maybe, maybe, or US General Crichton. That’s a little quick Google search that, but it says. It really is unattributed, but it’s a great quote. And I think, you know, there’s so much that can overwhelm us in the world, in business development for lawyers, for example, is just so menacing the thought of it and the time and the energy and the effort. But if we break it down into little pieces, it starts to come together pretty well. And again, you don’t have to, you know, own the world in a day. I think it’s more of a marathon than a sprint and all those kinds of things. But do us a favor. Let’s get a little background. So Brian, you’re the president of Shapiro legal search. Give us a little background in your life.
Brian Haugh [03:29]
Yeah. So I was born in Chicago. First 10 years of my life were spent on Marine Corps bases. My dad was obviously marine and then when I was in fourth grade, went to Northwestern law school. I grew up out in the western burbs of Chicago, went to University of Illinois, graduated with a degree in accounting, was planning on going to law school, and ended up getting into sales, and then somehow fell into recruiting back in oh five with a deco, which is one of the big boys, 20 billion plus organization left shortly thereafter, started Verdian national search, which is a technical accounting search firm that I started, like said, in oh six, brought my best friend Jim aboard in oh seven, and then we acquired Shapiro legal search in October of 22.
Steve Fretzin [04:21]
Yeah. Really cool. And I do love bringing recruiters on the show, because you guys have a unique perspective of what’s really going on in the marketplace. And you know, we’re sitting here in mid October 2025, you know, the economy and the world are all uncertain and crazy at this time, and I feel like law, legal is going down employment, and then, you know, then it’s not, and it’s like, it’s kind of confusing. Can you give people kind of your perspective of the state of legal right now, and as it relates to growth and what you’re seeing.
Brian Haugh [04:51]
Yeah. So we represent about 50 firms nationwide. About 35 ish are and law, 200 firms. Small chunk of that, or big law. I mean, we see pretty wide array of firms in a lot of these firms are national, some are regional, some are boutique firms. So a year ago, two years ago, we present a candidate with a million dollar book to, let’s say, 10 clients. They get seven interviews. Now it’s the opposite. So, you know, same million dollar book, they’ll get three interviews and get rejected at seven. Unfortunately, a lot of times when we present a candidate, our clients don’t give us the feedback. You know, the specific reason, they’ll just say, No. Need my assumption there. And again, this is across firms. It’s not like, you know, the handful or whatever. This is, like I said, 50 ish firms. Yeah, like you said, the economy is still up in the air. A lot of question marks. You know, the risk tolerance is down from what I see.
Steve Fretzin [05:52]
And so, you know, the it used to be, you know, the million dollar players, to your point, we’re getting all the looks, and now it seems less so. And then, you know, heaven forbid you’re a service partner doing everyone else’s work, no clients of your own. What’s the atmosphere look like for them?
Brian Haugh [06:06]
I mean, if you think about it from a firm’s perspective, they’re paying us a 25% premium to hire a candidate. Most lawyers don’t have a book, or certainly a, you know, call it a million dollar book, you know, I’d say most are on the service side. Firms, you know, can pretty easily hire those folks on their own. They use us to find folks that they can’t find, and those are folks with the portable books. That’s what we spend all day chasing, you know, those attorneys. So it’s a much different play on the service side versus the lateral partner side with portable books, I can certainly get into more detail on the difference there and how we recruiter or what clients look for.
Steve Fretzin [06:48]
Yeah, but is it more about like, there’s an open, they have an opening, or they’re overwhelmed with work, and they need to poach somebody, or grab somebody that already has five or 10 years of experience to come in and just handle the work, and that might be the opportunity, or the opportunity for someone that’s a service partner.
Brian Haugh [07:05]
Yeah. So usually we get those calls. And again, most of the hiring on the service side is done directly, you know, from the firm, not going through recruiters, because, again, they don’t want to pay the 25% premium, right? We get the calls when there’s a significant need. Usually that happens when a partner dies, gets sick, sometimes retire, although that’s typically planned for but when you have an influx of business that needs to be serviced and that you know that partner can’t service it, that’s when we get the call.
Steve Fretzin [07:35]
Yeah. And so why do firms like to use recruiters versus having an internal team or trying to do it themselves. What are you and your and the other folks in the industry doing that allows for a win, win outcome for everybody, for that candidate, for the firm and for you.
Brian Haugh [07:53]
So this is what we do all day long. Obviously, internal recruiters at a law firm spend a part of their day coordinating, you know, talking with their teams, etc. All we do all day long is reach out to candidates. Yeah, so we’re gonna have different access. I mean, there’s, you know, obviously there are certain advantages when a firm reaches out to a candidate directly. There’s also disadvantages. So we’re able to represent multiple opportunities where, obviously the firm can’t, they can only represent theirs.
Steve Fretzin [08:24]
Yeah, and is it? I mean, how is it set up and structured? From a standpoint of, you’re working with a candidate, you’re working with a firm, you’re trying to put everybody together and get that win, win outcome the firm is paying for you. So how do you balance that to ensure that the candidate is getting in the right place the right way.
Brian Haugh [08:43]
I mean, there are certain criteria that our clients will provide us with. Typically, it’s book and Bill Wright, that’s a starting point, and then obviously geography. So those three things can typically be knockouts when we have multiple options. You know, again, a lot of our clients are national. So most of them have offices in New York City and DC, and then, certainly, as you move into, you know, some of the other markets, you know, like Los Angeles, a lot of our clients have offices. There are not as many as in New York or DC, but our job is to present opportunities to the candidate, I’d say we’re definitely more focused on the candidate, making them happy, finding what they’re looking for on the lateral side, that’s when a client is agnostic in terms of this practice they’re looking for, etc.
Steve Fretzin [09:33]
Okay, and what? So I’m just trying to figure out too, like, the mindset of an attorney moving laterally. You there, I’m assuming that you find out from the candidate what their motivation is to move. Is it money? Is it culture? Bad culture? Is it lack of transparency? I mean, what would be the top two or three reasons why someone decides, after five or 10 years, to leave a firm and go look for a new home?
Brian Haugh [10:00]
Yeah. So obviously, when you’re in again, I’m assuming we’re talking about laterals.
Steve Fretzin [10:05]
Yeah, we’re talking about laterals with million dollar books. That’s fine.
Brian Haugh [10:09]
Yep. So, I mean, obviously that’s a it’s a pain. I mean, there’s no doubt that’s a pain. So according to Tony Robbins, people move either to avoid pain or gain pleasure. And I asked that question always, what would cause you to go through this pain of making the move? Because there, there has to be something significant there, you know, someone’s not going to move for 10 grand, or, you know, 20 grand, whatever it is, the number one reason I get is support in my I just don’t have enough support. I’m losing clients, or I’m not able to go out and get new clients. I mean, I’ve talked to a 74 year old partner out of an amwala Tuner firm, $5 million book. He last year build out 2500 hours, which is a ton. And the reason is he didn’t have support. So he’s looking for support. That’s probably the number one reason, and I would say that’s across the board. Doesn’t matter, geography, practice area, firm, that’s across the board. So I hear that quite often a close number number two is compensation, without a doubt.
Steve Fretzin [11:13]
Yeah. And someone that isn’t, you know, being supported, and has to Bill all those hours and maybe do their own admin and, you know, and then meanwhile, they’ve got this big book, and they want to go build more, but they can’t, because they’re pigeonholed to the billable hour. And one of the main things I work on with lawyers is building business and learning to delegate. But if the firm doesn’t support the delegation, then you’re trapped, and that’s the service partner trap that people have. But also could be a partner trap too.
Brian Haugh [11:41]
Yep, and you’ll, you’ll have certain firms that don’t compensate as well as others for originations. You know, they’re more focused on the working hours, which, obviously there’s a limitation there. In terms of working hours, you can only, you know what, 20 503,000 Max, whereas, you know, if you can go out and generate 10 million or 15 million, have someone else do that. I mean that, yeah, sometimes the goals don’t align with the firm, and that’s another reason you’ll get folks looking to move.
Steve Fretzin [12:13]
I mean, something that I’ve been hearing much more lately than not, with big firms, you know, 1000 plus person firms has been a real lack of transparency as it relates to these associates and even partners, who don’t know what the comp is. They don’t know what their origination is. They don’t know, like, there’s no communication, there’s no transparency about what they can make if they do this, or if they do that, or if they get elevated, like they’re all in the dark. And even when they have advocates, they just either don’t ask the questions or it’s just sort of like an unwritten rule you don’t that you just do your job like, you know, be an advocate for the firm and hope for the best. And I’m just, like, scratching my head at that.
Brian Haugh [12:53]
Yeah, no, I I hear that often as well. And there are certain advantages to an open comp versus closed and vice versa. So I’ll give you an example. I mean, obviously on open, you know exactly what you’re going to make. You know the formula to make, whatever it is which on close, you don’t. Now, the advantage on closed comp is that you can have a million dollar producer. Let’s say you’ve, you know, a person that’s been with the firm for five years. They’re making 400,000 I present a candidate million dollars, who’s looking for 450 they really want that person. Obviously, if that 400k person found out they just hired someone making 50k more, you know, with less experience, they’re gonna be pretty upset. That’s an advantage of the closed system. Again, this is above my pay grade, but there are certain advantages to both sides. But I most rainmakers like the open comp.
Steve Fretzin [13:53]
Yeah, yeah, knowing what you have to do, knowing what the origination is, how you’re going to get compensated, and just, you know, it’s easier. It’s also easier for planning like you’re planning trips, you’re planning you know, you’re planning for college, you’re planning for all these different things and in expenses you have. And not knowing, I think, is a little freaky. Yep. Hey, everybody, as you know, one of the biggest challenges that law firms and lawyers face is hiring many attorneys know they need help, a virtual assistant, paralegal, legal secretary, but just don’t have the time to find and vet the right person. Well, that’s where hire paralegals.com. Comes in. They do all the heavy lifting, pre vetting top candidates who are in your time zone and ready to work. Firms save hundreds of hours every year and can hire for as little as 2000 per month. And for be that lawyer listeners like you, you’re going to get 500 off your first hire when you visit hire paralegals.com and use the promo code Steve with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality the best. Firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey, be that lawyer friends. If you’re looking for smarter ways to grow your law practice and want to stay ahead of the curve in legal, tech, business and strategy. Then it’s time to check out legal verse media, the go to hub for lawyers who want more. This international platform connects you with global thought leaders through articles, podcasts, webinars and interactive forums that are shaping the future of law. Explore everything with a free 14 day trial, including early access to tools peer discussions and a chance to build your brand as a thought leader. Don’t wait. Visit legalverse media.com, and register for membership today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. All right, there’s people that are considering leaving and moving laterally. They’re talking with you, what are some things that they need to start working on to get prepared for that type of a move? Because, like you said, it can be quite painful to leave and go somewhere else and deal with the fallout of that, especially if you have, like, you know, a really good relationship with the firm. You’ve been there a long time, and no one’s expecting it, but it’s sort of happening behind the scenes. How does a lawyer prepare for that?
Brian Haugh [16:42]
You’re talking in terms of moving clients, or actually, the.
Steve Fretzin [16:45]
Individual lawyer that is looking to move, they’re working with you, they’re talking with firms, they’re interviewing, but they have to prepare for, not only the interviews, but they also have to prepare for how they’re going to manage the fallout of leaving a firm.
Brian Haugh [16:58]
Yeah. So a couple things. One is that you’ll want to have your numbers, you know, for the LPQ, that’s a major pain for a lot of folks. The more data you have, the easier it is to, you know, get that data quickly. Number two is that the interview process takes time, and you have to set that time aside, you know, if you, let’s say, if I present a candidate to a client, they say, I want to interview the candidate. Can interview for two weeks that clients thinking like, okay, they’re not that interested. They’re not serious about a move, and that could kill a deal, even though they may be. They just haven’t set the time aside. So yeah, you have to set the time aside because it is, it is a time consuming process. And, yeah, it’s a pain in the butt, no doubt.
Steve Fretzin [17:44]
Yeah. And then what about the other side of it? And successfully, you know, getting placed or successfully, you know, looking to move. And things are moving in a forward progress. How are people getting prepared? Lawyers getting prepared to deal with the fallout at home, at their firm, current firm.
Brian Haugh [18:02]
So when we and again, we typically don’t get involved on the backside. They’re separate teams. Our dealings are mainly on the operational side, or the recruiting team. There’s obviously separate teams that do the onboarding and things like that, that will, you know, communicate with the potential clients that they’re bringing, ask that question in different way.
Steve Fretzin [18:21]
Yeah. I mean, so there might be some like, there’s buyer’s remorse when you are looking at another firm thinking the grass is greener, leaving something that bothers you at your current firm, lack of transparency, poor culture, maybe low comp, whatever. And people have to navigate not only leaving, but also the fallout of how, how you do take clients with and how the firm’s going to react, and how you can maybe maintain relationships when they’re angry because, you know, they thought you were a team player and that you were going to stay forever, when, in reality, even sort of plotting behind the scenes this move.
Brian Haugh [18:56]
Yeah. I mean, my advice is always to be thankful, you know, for the opportunity, and that a better opportunity came up to not leave the door open for a counter offer. I mean, if you Google, you know effects of counter offers, I forget the exact stats, but you know, it’s a pretty significant number of folks that when they do take a counter are not with the firm 12 months later, because that issue most likely is going to be there. It almost always, I mean, I can’t tell you how many times it’s happened to me, or a candidate of ours takes a counter and then, yeah, six months, nine months later, they’re gone. They have a target on their back. The issue, 99% of the time is not resolved. Yep, yeah, they end up leaving, and it’s, it’s best to do it on your terms versus theirs. Because, believe me, if you’re looking for a job after you know having the heat on that’s not a good position to be in when there’s a firestorm you want to you want to look on your terms when you know things are going well.
Steve Fretzin [19:57]
One of my clients left firm race. Personally that he was really happy with, but he got approached by a recruiter, the deal was significantly higher, and he’s built a great book under my tutelage and working with me, and we’re both very happy about it, trust me, but the offer he got was significantly higher, and then when he went to tell his firm, they offered to kind of come close to matching it, and it really rubbed him the wrong way, because he felt like, you know, here, you know, he’s been working for, you know, for pennies instead of nickels or whatever we want to say. And, and he felt like, you know, a little too, little too late. And he was kind of like, put little put out by the fact that they were willing to match a much bigger offer, and that he had all that money left on the table that they really hadn’t been maybe treating him properly from the get go.
Brian Haugh [20:44]
Yeah. I mean, why not? Why not make your employees happy and put your best foot forward to start instead of having a mask? And I understand both sides, but yeah, it’s like, once that decision is made, it taking a counter rarely works out.
Steve Fretzin [20:58]
Yeah. So then, what are some things that lawyers who are interested in making a lateral move. What are some good interview questions that you would prep them for to help identify fit or help identify that this is, you know, a firm that they would enjoy and get the type of support and comp and everything that they’re not getting at their current home.
Brian Haugh [21:19]
So one is be prepared to answer the question, Why are you looking Okay, number one, having a solid answer for that. And then number two is going into an interview and being able to articulate, why are you interested in in our firm? Because if a candidate just says, I’m looking for, you know, more money. I’m looking for more support. It’s like, okay, you didn’t do any research. You didn’t spend any time learning who we are, and that’s important. You know, you have to. You have to, you know, know what they’re looking for as well on both sides. And if you don’t, it just, you know, oftentimes leads to the client, assuming there’s no interest. I can’t tell you how many times an interview ends, candidate calls me like, yeah, I loved it. It was a great interview. I’m super interested. Client call says, yeah, they’re trusted. It’s like, okay, I just killed the deal. Yeah, verifying interest, verbalizing interest. Always have candidates at the end of an interview say, hey, Otter the next steps, or I’d love to come in and meet the team, or, you know, whatever it is to verbalize interest, and not not assume that they understand that you’re interested in moving forward, but to actually verbalize it.
Steve Fretzin [22:33]
Yeah, so being prepared to answer questions. And then I was also alluding to questions that candidates may want to ask the firm. So can they ask about comp? Can they ask about transparency? Can they ask about culture? You know, what sort of off limits, and what are things that it’s important for them and would impress the firm that they did ask?
Brian Haugh [22:54]
Yeah, so on the comp always recommend holding off, okay, until you understand if it’s a right fit or not. Because, again, it’s, you know, it’s like talking marriage on the first date. It’s like, okay, you know, we’re not there yet. But yeah, in terms of culture, you know, just making sure that it’s a fit. I mean, obviously you want to get the big pieces out to start, so that, you know, five interviews into it, you find out, Oh, they have a closed comp. That’s not going to work. I want open comp. So, yeah, it’s okay to ask that question in terms of open, closed or, you know, how often do I have to be in the office, you know, things that are important to you? But yeah, I would not necessarily talk comp on the first interview, first couple.
Steve Fretzin [23:34]
But I like what you’re I like where you’re getting like, you’re finding out what their sort of culture is. You’re finding out about open or closed eventually, maybe you’re also finding out what their support looks like, so that you’re not walking into the same situation you’re trying to leave.
Brian Haugh [23:52]
Yeah, personally agree with that.
Steve Fretzin [23:55]
Okay, one thing that always intrigues me, too is when they say, Oh, you’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna bring you on and you’re going to head up our new Chicago office, or you’re going to be the practice group for this Chicago office, and they, like, they’re trying to, like, start something, you know, in a new area, or something. And I question that sometimes I go, you know, there is no support that you’re the one that they’re looking to develop and manage all the people when you just want to build a book of business, and people get excited because it’s like, new and it’s shiny and it’s exciting that they’re going to be, you know, running a practice group, or they’re going to be starting a new a new office. And I always kind of caution lawyers, because I go, that’s you’re taking out a lot.
Brian Haugh [24:36]
Yeah, and not only that, but oftentimes it’s not compensated, and certainly not directly, a direct correlation, meaning you’re tasked with opening an office, you spend an hour, you know, you’re not getting that $500 bill rate. You don’t know. I mean, there’s no direct correlation in terms of revenue that you’re bringing in. And I. Yeah, I agree with you that it is you have to understand the plan and the expectations from the firm side, because I’ve had many candidates say that, hey, I’m the practice lead, but they’re not supporting it. They’re not putting the money, they’re not putting the time, the resources, etc. It’s like, okay, what’s the point of that?
Steve Fretzin [25:18]
Yeah, and you know, this is, I don’t want to say a little self serving, because I’m in the business. Obviously, my job is to make, you know, million dollar plus rainmakers. That’s why I’m in the trenches every day. Is to get people with no books, to get to 250, to 500, to a million, a million, to get to two and three and five and all that and above the difference in comp for those service attorneys that may listen to this or see a video or something. What’s the if you can just give some averages or some ballpark, someone with a million dollar book with equal number of hours, let’s say two that you know, 1500 2000 hours, to someone who’s doing the same amount of hours with no book, just servicing other people’s is there an average of how much more a lawyer makes with that million dollar plus book?
Brian Haugh [26:06]
Yeah. I mean, it could be up to 20% higher from the numbers I’ve seen. And not only that, but it’s control. I mean, it’s control over your practice. You’re not at the beck and call of someone else.
Steve Fretzin [26:20]
Yeah, your clients, you’re in charge. You’re the one delegating down, right? Okay, and, yeah.
Brian Haugh [26:27]
You just have, you know, a bigger seat at the table where you’re bringing in, you know, revenue that the firm wouldn’t have, whereas, if you’re relying on someone to feed you, you know, you’re going to, unfortunately, have to do what they ask you to do.
Steve Fretzin [26:40]
Yeah, and, you know, and if things go badly, the firm gets acquired, or your manager’s tyrant, or whatever it might be, you know, you’ve got, you know, the keys to the kingdom to move, lead, to call up Brian and say, Hey, man, I need to move. And, you know, again, you know, million is, I think, a starting point. I mean, what are you seeing with the folks that have three to five? I mean, what’s their what’s the interest in those folks from the firms you work with?
Brian Haugh [27:06]
I mean, you’re looking at a smaller platform, you know, smaller book, obviously that tends to go across the board. I would say, Yeah, million dollars certainly gets into the, call it the AMWA 200 to, you know, 125 ish, yeah, certainly, as you get into the larger platforms, though, on, you know, multiple seven figures.
Steve Fretzin [27:30]
Okay, okay, well, really interesting stuff. I’m always intrigued by what recruiters are seeing and dealing with and helping their clients with and trying to put it all together. Let’s move on to our last little bit of segment as we wrap up the show. And what’s Brian’s big mistake?
Brian Haugh [27:46]
It depends on who you ask.
Steve Fretzin [27:48]
Well, yeah, I saw your golf game, so that’s one, but nah.
Brian Haugh [27:52]
That’s one, although the next time you see me, hopefully that’ll be different. So from 2016 and again, this is before, before we got into legal or before we acquired superior legal search. We hired from 2016 until 2020 during covid, hired about 80 recruiters. They were across different areas, and again, that’s when our business was focused on accounting. But we hired, you know, some folks that did engineering. We had legal than other areas and we just weren’t market masters. Yeah, that was a huge mistake, just because, you know, we’re everywhere now. We’re super focused, super niched, and, yeah, that’s a mistake that we won’t make again. Yeah, just become market masters. And I assume the same, uh, applies the legal you can’t be, you know, everything to everyone. The more niche and focused you are, and you know, the more market master expert in a certain area. You’re going to get the calls and you’re going to get that business.
Steve Fretzin [28:53]
Yeah. I mean, you either thought of for something or you’re not thought of, thought of at all, for anything, is the what we’re seeing more and more of So, man, fantastic. Let’s take a moment think our wonderful sponsors, rankings. Io, we’ve got law her podcast and, of course, legal verse media. And just want to give a quick shout out to hire paralegals.com you can go to their website, use the promo code, Steve, get 500 off your first hire. Check all of that out in the show notes, and go to them and visit their websites. Ryan, people want to get in touch with you. What are the best ways for them to reach out?
Brian Haugh [29:24]
I give you my cell phone. It’s and you could text or call. Text is probably better. 312-593-0810, and again, I can shoot you my email. If you text me.
Steve Fretzin [29:36]
Yeah and check out the show notes, we’ll have all that in there as well. And thanks, man. I appreciate you coming to the show and giving us kind of an update on not only the kind of the state of the market, but also what lawyers who are looking to move laterally need to be thinking about from, you know, a number of different sides and views. And I think this, to me, is super I’m just always super interested in this, because I’m seeing things from one perspective. And, you know, bringing. On great guests like you, allows me to see all these other perspectives. So really, really great. So thanks, man. Appreciate it.
Brian Haugh [30:04]
Yeah, no, definitely ticker.
Steve Fretzin [30:09]
All right, you got it. And thank you everybody for hanging out and be that lawyer for the last half an hour and change. You know, again, it’s not for everybody. If you have a great place that respects you, supports you, and you’ve got a platform that allows you to grow and be that lawyer and build your book. I mean, stay the course, you know. But if you’re starting to see things fall apart and you’re going to start, you know, realizing, you know, there’s other places and other opportunities, so don’t be shy and check it out and be that lawyer. Everybody. Take care. Be safe, be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [30:42]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website. Fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.