In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Zapf discuss:
- Financial planning and metrics for law firms
- Importance of strategic investments and cost control
- Leveraging financial storytelling for decision-making
- Best practices for client and revenue management
Key Takeaways:
- In addition to revenue, law firm owners should track net income and cash flow, as well as specific KPIs like effective hourly rates and client lifetime value to fully understand profitability.
- Payroll should be about 40-45% of revenue; excessive payroll spending can prevent firm growth and profitability, especially if partners or staff are not contributing proportional value.
- Firms should aim to bill upfront where possible and maintain timely follow-ups on accounts receivable to reduce cash flow issues and avoid prolonged collection struggles.
- Undercharging for services can lead to rapid client acquisition but may indicate undervaluing; regular market assessments can ensure competitive and profitable pricing.
“The financial story goes beyond just having a financial report that your bookkeeper might give you each month. It’s more about understanding where you are right now in your business and where you want to go.” — Brian Zapf
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Episode References:
The Tim Ferriss Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795
About Brian Zapf: Brian Zapf is the founder and Chief CFO of Flight Financial, a fractional CFO firm that helps law firm owners master their financials through clear financial storytelling and strategic financial management. With a focus on improving cash flow, profitability, and business growth, Brian uses his background in accounting and finance to help lawyers turn their numbers into actionable insights. He has helped his clients focus on what matters, improve their firm’s performance, and reduce their stress.
Connect with Brian Zapf:
Website: https://www.flight.financial/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bdzapf/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, my Be That Lawyer fans. Are you struggling with the same uphill battle? Growing new business without losing your sanity? It might be time management, a lack of a structured plan, or outdated business development strategies that are keeping you from reaching your full potential. But what if I told you there’s a better way?
[00:00:16] Steve Fretzin: In this exclusive, no presentation, no PowerPoint, interactive 60 minute session, you’ll work directly with me on your specific challenges. This event is a no brainer. Please join me on November 15th from 1 to 2 p. m. Central to level up your B. E. D. game. Seating is limited to only the first 20 attorneys who register, so get to it now.
[00:00:35] Steve Fretzin: Go to my website, Fretzin. com slash events, to sign up today and hope to see you there.
[00:00:44] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in law. Less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:01:06] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. Welcome back. It’s Steve Fretzin. You are on the Be That Lawyer Podcast. Welcome. We are here twice a week for your listening pleasure and viewing pleasure. If you’d like to go to YouTube, I don’t really know if anybody’s looking at my YouTube videos, but all of these ’cause I don’t talk about it, maybe that’s my problem.
[00:01:22] Steve Fretzin: But all of these podcasts are on YouTube, so if you’d prefer to watch the video and see me interview the guests. And then we also do Brian, I don’t know if you know about this, we’re now doing blogcasts. Do you know what a blogcast is?
[00:01:34] Brian Zapf: Is that like a video, but you send it out via a blog?
[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: You’re very close.
[00:01:39] Steve Fretzin: It’s actually. The podcast that we’re going to do today is going to be shrunken down through the transcript into a two page blog article. So I’m calling them blog casts. I don’t think I made that up, but it sounds like I did. I’ll take credit. So anyways, I actually talked to my trademark, one of my lawyers, he’s like, yeah, that’s not happening.
[00:01:59] Steve Fretzin: So it’s too much like general out in the public. So I’m going to use it and other people can use it too. And we can all have fun with that. But Brian, welcome to the show. We are going to start off as we love to do with the quote of the show. You gave me two and I liked that because I get to pick the one I want.
[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: And that is Dwight Eisenhower plans are worthless, but planning is indispensable. Welcome to the show and, and talk about that quote, why you love that quote.
[00:02:23] Brian Zapf: Yeah, thanks for having me on Steve. I mean, I’d say the big reason I love that quote is that it speaks to what I do as a financial storyteller for law firms, right?
[00:02:32] Brian Zapf: It’s like most people think, Oh, if you’ve got like a forecast, that’s a financial forecast. Those are just made up numbers. But, and that’s true, right? Like they usually don’t end up hitting your forecast exactly, but it’s the thought process that you go through. Thinking, oh, if I want to triple my revenue over the next five years, what do I need to be investing in, in terms of people costs, you know, sales and marketing.
[00:02:56] Brian Zapf: So it really helps you make the right decisions to get where you want to go.
[00:03:00] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I usually start off every new coaching training engagement with a lawyer. Doing some planning sessions and we write a plan together and all that. And I do feel like sometimes the act of planning and the act of thinking about it and how we’re going to spend our time and what’s the low hanging fruit and where are we going to go?
[00:03:20] Steve Fretzin: What are we, that exercise I think actually is more effective than the actual, like piece of paper it’s written on, you know, and I get them to go back and look at it, but it, I just feel like maybe it’s that just that they never thought about this or they never thought about that. And now it’s all coming out in the planning session.
[00:03:36] Brian Zapf: Yeah, exactly. And I like to think of plans as being a living document. So you make a plan, you take some action on it, and then you see, okay, well, where did we end up? And then you course correct accordingly.
[00:03:49] Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody, we’ve got Brian Zaff here. He’s the founder and CFO of Flight Financial, also a Provisors member along with me and 10, 000 other Folks around the country that are enjoying a bounty of referrals with a provisor shout out to them And give us a little background, you know, how did you come to be and how did you get to work?
[00:04:08] Steve Fretzin: How did you get so lucky to work with lawyers like me?
[00:04:11] Brian Zapf: Yeah, that’s a great question And really, you know, I never thought I was going to go the financial route I mean, I I was good with numbers, but I always preferred storytelling I took a lot of creative writing and screenwriting classes, especially in college, but You I also didn’t want to be a starving artist and I thought it might be helpful.
[00:04:29] Brian Zapf: And actually one of my screenwriting professors had been a staff writer for law and order, and she’d been a practicing attorney and she said, go out in the world, you know, like learn a trade, get some unique experiences, and then you’ll have something you can actually write about. So. One thing led to another and I ended up getting into finance and accounting and I did investment banking for a number of years.
[00:04:51] Brian Zapf: I worked for MetLife as a controller for some other startup businesses. And then, you know, COVID ended up hitting and I kind of did a lot of kind of self evaluation and reflection, as I imagine a lot of us did and decided that I could take this skillset that I’d cultivated in finance and accounting at larger firms and also working with startups and private equity back firms.
[00:05:13] Brian Zapf: And I could help other professional service firm owners like myself, and especially lawyers, because lawyers, they’re great at practicing the law, but there’s a lot that goes with owning a law firm, and they’re not always an expert at that.
[00:05:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s right. It’s all of the soft skills associated with lawyering that lawyers struggle with.
[00:05:32] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, they either figure it out through trial and error and through a lot of wasted time and pain, or they hire folks like you and I and others to, you know, No, lead them down a path that could be very useful to them and save them a lot of time and energy and money. So, but how, and how did you get into legal specifically?
[00:05:50] Steve Fretzin: Like, that sounds like, you know, it’s just like me. It’s like, I found a niche where lawyers don’t know something. And I have that, you know, that gap to fill and it really made a lot of sense. I guess that’s what you’re saying. You kind of did too.
[00:06:05] Brian Zapf: Yeah, exactly. And I actually, my, my roommate, when I was going to business school for my MBA, he was actually a law student.
[00:06:13] Brian Zapf: So I was friends with a lot of aspiring lawyers. And then when I got out in the business world, I worked with a lot of, you know, both lawyers at larger firms and then also small firm owners. And just listening to them talk about some of their pain points, I realized that there was just an underserved market here.
[00:06:30] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, very cool. So let’s start from like baby steps, right? Going from what are some of the first things that lawyers who are going out on their own or lawyers who are already out on their own, what are some things that they need to do to Make sure their business is healthy to make sure that they’re on the right track.
[00:06:51] Steve Fretzin: Because I feel like there’s a lot of them that maybe they’re doing their own bookkeeping or their own invoicing. They’re doing, you know, they don’t have reports, like they don’t have information and they’re just kind of, you know, Hey, whatever comes in, or it seems like I’m doing well. They don’t know if they’re spending too much, you know, where I’m going with this.
[00:07:07] Brian Zapf: And that’s not uncommon, you know, especially a lot of new firm owners, they’re going off of gut instinct. Like they’re good at the legal work. So they’re focused on that. They’re just trying to bill and work as much as they can. And maybe they’re checking their bank account and saying, okay, well, I’ve got cash here and I can kind of pay these expenses.
[00:07:25] Brian Zapf: But they’re not really keeping an eye on, Oh, well, you know, am I underpricing for my services? Right? Because you’ve got to work that much harder if you’re not charging a fair, you know, wage for what you’re, the work that you’re doing, or maybe you’re spending too much on expenses, or if you’ve hired staff to help you, maybe you haven’t, you know, maybe they’re not billing out enough relative to what they’re costing you as a firm owner.
[00:07:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So there’s just a lot of moving parts and it’s important to bring them all together. So. Then what do you see as some of the key financial metrics that law firm owners should focus on to ensure that long term profitability, sustainability in their, in growing their law practice law firm?
[00:08:05] Brian Zapf: Sure, yeah, I mean the big three really are revenue, net income, and cash flow, right?
[00:08:10] Brian Zapf: So revenue is the money coming in from clients and other sources, net income is what you keep after you pay all your expenses. And then cash flows, the money going in and out of the bank. But, you know, for law firm owners specifically, there’s a few KPIs that I’d like to dig into, and one of those is profitability of just your attorneys and staff.
[00:08:29] Brian Zapf: So a good rule of thumb, especially with partner attorneys is that you should be billing out twice what they’re costing you. I mean, if it’s, you know, more junior staff, you know, like paralegals, that number could even get up to five X what they’re costing you as a firm owner to make sure that they’re profitable.
[00:08:46] Brian Zapf: Another one I like to look at is effective hourly rates. So what are you actually collecting from your clients? Are you writing off some of the time, some of the work that you’re doing for them versus what you think that you’re billing out? And then the last one is just, you know, lifetime client gross profit.
[00:09:03] Brian Zapf: So how profitable are your clients over time after you account for what it costs you to do the work for them? Relative to how much did you have to spend in sales and marketing and, you know, onboarding to get that client in the first place?
[00:09:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And there’s a saying in marketing that it’s, you know, six times more work, effort, time, money to get a new client than to keep one that you have.
[00:09:27] Steve Fretzin: So understanding what that client is bringing in and what that client’s going to bring in in the future based on your knowledge of their business. And I think then also leaning into how you build that client loyalty and what are you doing for them outside of, you know, just the matters. We talk about that quite a bit on the show, but I just want to, you know, just make a point about that, that it’s, it’s like.
[00:09:48] Steve Fretzin: Like, you know, to go out and find new business is hard. Everyone knows that to keep people that you have, you know, to the degree that you can much easier. So invest time and money and energy there too. So then, you know, something you mentioned now once or twice has been, you know, storytelling. And so how can smaller firms leverage financial storytelling to make better business decisions and drive growth?
[00:10:12] Steve Fretzin: Well, how does that play a role in it?
[00:10:14] Brian Zapf: Yeah. And I love that question. And really the financial story, it goes beyond just. Having a financial report that maybe your bookkeeper gives you every month. It’s more about understanding, where are you right now in your business and where do you want to go? And then that’ll help you kind of focus and prioritize decision making to make sure, okay, are we focused on the high leverage activities that are making our story come true, or are we spending a lot of our effort on things that maybe are shiny bells and whistles, but ultimately aren’t going to get us that happy ending that we’re looking for in the end.
[00:10:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, so they’re, you’re thinking about, Hey, what do I want this business to do for me? Where’s it going? What’s the story that I want to be able to tell? And then you’re sort of backing out of it. How the financial focus is
[00:11:02] Brian Zapf: exactly right. Like if I want to have a business in a few years from now, that’s.
[00:11:08] Brian Zapf: You know, maybe 5 million in revenue and I don’t have to spend a ton of hours actively working in the business. That’s a certain financial profile, right? You’re going to have to have a staff in place that can service the work for you and that you can trust. To do it in your absence. You can’t be the sole rainmaker either, right?
[00:11:26] Brian Zapf: Like if you’re in the hospital Are new leads drying up and new sales? So you’ve got to make sure you’re investing enough in sales and marketing and then your overhead can’t be Too blown out of whack like you can’t have office space. That’s way more expensive Relative to what you’re generating in revenue So a few things to think about there
[00:11:47] Steve Fretzin: and I guess i’d also follow up what reports should It law firms be asking for via their accountant, their bookkeeper, the people that are tracking that so that they can look at the metrics and look at the story and make sure that they’re on the right track.
[00:12:02] Brian Zapf: Yeah. And I’d say the, the main ones are your profit and loss statement or the P and L as it’s called just the money coming in and the money going out via expenses. And then your balance sheet is good to just take the pulse on your firm. Like how much do you have in cash? How much is sitting in trust account liabilities?
[00:12:21] Brian Zapf: How much do you owe, you know, your vendors or suppliers gives you just a good financial picture of where you stand. Yeah.
[00:12:28] Steve Fretzin: Maybe look at your AR. I mean, there are people that have hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting out there that they’re, that’s uncollected. And it’s like they’re cash poor because they can’t get these clients to pay or maybe they’ve, you know, sent a nice email like, Hey, John, you know, if you wouldn’t mind, please get this to me and then just, you know, crickets and, you know, like, do I really want to bother this client?
[00:12:49] Steve Fretzin: They’re my biggest client. And yet you’re at this deficit.
[00:12:53] Brian Zapf: Yeah, 100 percent and firm owners don’t realize how much just time and mental effort goes in to chasing on past due accounts. And that’s time that could be spent out either generating new business or working on existing clients.
[00:13:06] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Heaven forbid you have to hire a lawyer as a lawyer to go get your money.
[00:13:10] Steve Fretzin: Right. And, you know, again, we’re all trying to, you know, run successful businesses. And I think, you know, look, your clients that own businesses, for example, that, you know, they’re collecting on the money they have. Why aren’t you collecting on yours? Do you have any, any approaches or thoughts about like, How to get that money in when things are tight and it’s like, you know, this is 90 days plus.
[00:13:32] Brian Zapf: Yeah. And generally my, I prefer to take more like the physician approach, right? What can we prevent? So I like to try to make sure that we’re billing upfront wherever possible. And I get, if you’ve got like a contingent fee based business, that’s not necessarily possible, but even they’re trying to get a retainer and making sure that the retainer at least Covers a good chunk of your operating costs for that client.
[00:13:57] Brian Zapf: But I mean, outside of that, if you’ve got a client, that’s 90 days overdo it. And I would say there’s like a time value of money too, right? The longer outstanding it is, the less likely your chances are of. Collecting on it. So, and it’s just a good excuse to be following up with your clients, making sure that you’re tending to that relationship so that you are trying to bill an invoice in a timely fashion.
[00:14:20] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:14:20] Brian Zapf: I mean, if it’s something is 90 days past due and the client’s just not paying, sometimes it’s just a business decision. Like, are we going to fire this client and just write that AR off? Or are we going to turn it over to a collections agency and. 50% of something is better than a hundred percent of nothing at the end of the day.
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[00:14:59] Steve Fretzin: io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a unique opportunity.
[00:15:19] Steve Fretzin: Significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rainmakers Please go to my website Fretzin. com and apply for membership today and obviously don’t give any names But is there a story that you have from one of your clients that you know had a completely messed up financial story and you were able to go in and say this, we need to clean this all up.
[00:15:50] Steve Fretzin: And like, what, and like, what was the outcome on the end? I mean, this is a good, good opportunity, like a case study for, for what you do.
[00:15:57] Brian Zapf: Yeah, and I would say that the biggest thing I mean, AR is definitely a pain point. So trying to make sure that we’ve got good upfront kind of invoicing and timely collection practices.
[00:16:08] Brian Zapf: But you know, the biggest thing that I see is just overpaying, kind of investing too much in payroll. And you’ll see a lot of firms where like 60 percent plus of their incoming revenue is going out to pay their staff and their partners. And a good rule of thumb is that all in, you shouldn’t be, you know, spending more than 40 to 45%.
[00:16:30] Brian Zapf: So, you know, I had a law firm, it was a smaller law firm, you know, and they, They had a couple of partners, but the partners were working part-time and it was a great lifestyle for them. They were getting paid pretty generous base salaries, origination commissions, paid time off, and bonuses, but they weren’t really taking a lot of extra load off of the founder’s plate, so the founder wasn’t getting to step away and take the vacation time that they wanted to, or, or spend time with their family.
[00:17:01] Brian Zapf: It’s challenging because you don’t want to upset the apple cart, right? If you’ve got a couple of partners and it’s a, it’s a tough hiring environment out there right now. But kind of, if you think about longterm, you need to have everybody invested and kind of rowing in the same direction. So it is being able to go to those partners with financial data and just say, look, we like having you here, but we can’t keep this arrangement.
[00:17:24] Brian Zapf: We’re going to have to make it more economically viable for the firm.
[00:17:28] Steve Fretzin: It seems like Brian, you’ve got these numbers in your head of the profit on an associates like two times their cost or, you know, 40%. Like, I wonder if there are some standards that you’d be willing to share around. Profitability around, you know, what overhead should be in comparison to what your total, you know, revenue is like, what are some of the standards that law firm owners should be considering so that they can say, well, that no, my, you know, my profitability is, you know, 10 percent and you’re telling everybody it should be 30 percent or whatever.
[00:18:05] Steve Fretzin: What can you share in that from that perspective?
[00:18:08] Brian Zapf: Yeah, happy to share that. And like I said, right, so payroll costs, including kind of the owner’s salary, if they’re getting paid a salary through the firm, because they’re taking an active role, that should be around 40 to 45 percent of your revenue. And then sales and marketing, you know, a lot of firm owners under invest in that.
[00:18:27] Brian Zapf: But if you’re trying to actively grow your firm and put a mechanism in place that works without you, That really should be close to eight to 12 percent of your revenue. And then overhead, I would say it’s kind of the last piece there, you know, maybe kind of 10 to 15 on the high end, 20 percent of your revenue go into overhead.
[00:18:50] Brian Zapf: So then on the low end, you really should be looking at closer to kind of a 20 percent net margin. I mean, it’s not unheard of to get closer to kind of 35, 40%, but that’s for a really optimized firm that has all their processes dialed in.
[00:19:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and that’s, you know, really interesting because you can think about, you know what, I’m not spending any money on sales and marketing.
[00:19:13] Steve Fretzin: Coaching, for example, you know, everybody, you know, personal plug, you know, invest in yourself, invest in your firm. You’ve got to put money back in. And Brian saying 8 to 12 percent and you’re right now you’re not doing anything. You’re not even posting on, you know, social and think about your space. You know, I’m working out of a home office and there’s, you know, shared space.
[00:19:37] Steve Fretzin: There’s, you know, very affordable space. I don’t think you have to have the flashiest office unless you’re the, you know, the big white, you know, white shoe firm you know, people are not coming to the office that often. So, you know, people want to work remotely. So take all these things into account that it might be ways to lower your overhead and then you can invest it into, you know, more into marketing and more into, you know, what you make.
[00:20:01] Brian Zapf: Yep. Yeah, exactly. And I’d say another one is just looking at kind of your pricing and a big thing. It’s not just. What’s your billing out, but the effective hourly rate, like I said, what are you realizing on the work that you’re doing? And if you’re writing off a ton of time just because you’re trying to keep one or two really large clients happy, That’s an issue too that just affects the quality of your firm.
[00:20:23] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, you know, here’s a funny thing, Brian. I asked my client, sometimes they, they’re closing a lot of the people they’re meeting, meaning they meet with prospective clients. They’re closing, closing, closing. And let’s say it’s a state planning, like I close everybody and I go and I go, all right, and what’s your rate?
[00:20:36] Steve Fretzin: And they tell me like 300 an hour. Meanwhile, they have, or you know, it’s like, you know, two to 4, 000 for an estate plan when a state plans are going for five to 10 and I go, you know, you’re the cheapest in town and they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah. Have you done any research to like, look at what other lawyers are charging?
[00:20:53] Steve Fretzin: There’s a reason why you’re closing everything. You’re completely. Underpricing and undervaluing you’ve been doing this for 15 years or 20 years and you’re charging less than a second year third year. So I think that’s something important to really look at the market understand your value how long you’ve been doing this and how quickly you’re able to do things because that impacts you know that your rate should go up and you know if you go from 400 to 500 and that’s for you know.
[00:21:19] Steve Fretzin: You could go back to existing clients, but more importantly, all the new clients you’re going to bring on, you know, you’re making 25 percent or 20 percent more revenue than you made last year, just from that one decision that no one’s going to have a problem with because you were underpriced from the beginning.
[00:21:35] Brian Zapf: Exactly. You’re doing the same amount of work where in a lot of cases you end up doing less work because the clients are willing to pay you more also value the work that you’re doing Yeah, really
[00:21:45] Steve Fretzin: interesting stuff all the way around. Let’s talk about the common Financial mistakes that law firm owners make and how they can be avoided.
[00:21:55] Steve Fretzin: What would you say are like the top three?
[00:21:57] Brian Zapf: Yeah, and I think we’ve already touched on a couple of them. So Overspending in terms of payroll i’d say that’s a huge one If you’re trying to build a firm Let me stop
[00:22:07] Steve Fretzin: you there brian Isn’t that tougher to do now than ever because as you mentioned earlier that you know It’s not always about the money, but money is a big factor in how you’re going to attract the right talent.
[00:22:18] Steve Fretzin: You’ve got to pay them, you know their value in the market and there’s other people looking to poach them. So does that make it more challenging to then figure out how to keep the money in order how to keep you know from overspending on help?
[00:22:30] Brian Zapf: It does. And it’s a very challenging recruiting environment right now.
[00:22:34] Brian Zapf: But I would say the other thing too, is that money can’t be the only reason somebody chooses your firm. So you’ve got to make sure that you’re aligning in terms of values and culture. Cause if somebody wanted to make the most money as a lawyer, right, they could go work for one of these large firms and they could work 60, 80 hours a week and have no life.
[00:22:56] Brian Zapf: But there’s a lot of attorneys who either start their own firms or want to join smaller firms because they want more work life balance and they want flexibility. So it’s really finding the people who buy into that message and what you’re trying to deliver.
[00:23:10] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Yeah. That all makes sense. Any other major financial mistakes or things that you’re seeing happening on a day to day that lawyers need to avoid?
[00:23:20] Brian Zapf: I mean, I’d say another one is just not keeping an eye on expenses. You’re just You know, I’ve lost the spend and
[00:23:25] Steve Fretzin: spend and spend. I want that. If I get that, I want to go here. I go there. Yeah,
[00:23:30] Brian Zapf: boy, exactly. And it’s just, you’re so busy trying to bill and bring in business and deliver the work. You’re not keeping an eye on, okay, are we spending on things that we aren’t using or don’t need?
[00:23:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I had the good fortune of looking through my wife’s credit card statement from last month, but she’s like, I don’t know why it’s so high. And I was like, clothes, shoes, clothes, I was like, okay, essentials. Right. Yeah. I think I found the problem closing shoes, but you know, but she’s like, but I don’t do that every month.
[00:23:59] Steve Fretzin: I’m like, well, that’s true. But let me look at the last six months. She’s like, I don’t think so. So that ended that conversation pretty quickly. But I think you’re right. That we, we do have to consider really looking at breaking down our P and L and looking at our entertainment expenses, looking at. Yeah.
[00:24:14] Steve Fretzin: Our technology and overhead and just the things that we’re spent overspending on and how that’s impacting You know how we’re able to pay ourselves our team and be profitable.
[00:24:25] Brian Zapf: Yeah. Yeah, exactly There’s a lot of great technology out there now too that can make owning and operating a firm a lot more efficient So it’s making sure are you investing in the right things and then you know
[00:24:37] Steve Fretzin: But don’t but tell us what that like what are you seeing are some of the better technology investments law firms are making You
[00:24:44] Brian Zapf: Yeah, and I would say, like, you want to have a good law firm CRM so that you’re tracking the work that you’re doing, but more than that, it’s like a great piece of tech isn’t going to make up for a bad process, so it’s really just making sure you’ve got the tools that your team is using and that Appreciate it.
[00:25:01] Brian Zapf: You’ve clearly got kind of signed up, kind of spelled out like a standard operating procedure. And,
[00:25:06] Narrator: you
[00:25:06] Brian Zapf: know, I find that often having like a checklist for how certain types of recurring work are done can really help avoid mistakes, make things more efficient.
[00:25:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, I certainly practice management systems that handle billing, invoicing, some of them like Lawmatics and others can handle marketing automations and You know, email, mass emails that look at personalized.
[00:25:29] Steve Fretzin: I mean, there’s all kinds of things I’m doing. Philomatics that I think are really terrific. And then just little things like, you know, scheduling, I, you know, people hear me talk on a regular basis about, you know, acuity and Callan Lee and just scheduling, you know, just how, you know, how fast can you do things so that you free up your time so you could focus on growing business?
[00:25:48] Brian Zapf: Yep. Yeah, exactly. Like, are you spending most of the time on the high impact stuff that only you can do as a skilled lawyer or. Are you wasting your time on administrative stuff that like you said, like Calendly or Acuity or another piece of software could handle?
[00:26:03] Steve Fretzin: Hey, Brian, last question before we get to the game changing podcast that I want to talk about.
[00:26:09] Steve Fretzin: There are financial planners who do, you know, a percentage of whatever you invest with them. You have people that are doing flat fees. You have people that are doing retainers. You have all these different models. And I know it’s not a one size fits all, but how does a law firm owner that wants to have someone in their corner, what’s, is there one that you’d recommend or that, you know, might be the one you do, or just how do you make hay on that?
[00:26:34] Brian Zapf: Yeah. So if I understand that the question you’re asking, kind of, how do I structure working with clients?
[00:26:39] Steve Fretzin: Well, yeah, sure. Let’s do that.
[00:26:41] Brian Zapf: Yeah. So, I mean, I, or you’re talking about, sorry, I’m just talking generally,
[00:26:47] Steve Fretzin: like there’s a lot of different ways that it’s done. And it sounds like you’re probably, you know, focused on like getting in and into the weeds and really CFO for them a little bit to pull out all the information, help them run, you know, run a successful firm versus someone who’s, Just taking investments and putting them into stuff.
[00:27:06] Brian Zapf: Yeah. So I, so there’s financial planners for your personal side of things, which it’s important to have that dialed in. And I’d say I’m more of a financial kind of growth coach or planner for your firm, for the business, making sure that. Are we investing in the right things? And are we looking at the right numbers proactively so we can make the right decisions?
[00:27:26] Steve Fretzin: Okay. And sorry. Good. That’s kind of what I wanted to know. And you know, there might be people that do both that kind of manage. The personal and the business. I mean, my financial planner, he went through my business and like with a fine tooth comb. He’s a provisor’s guy out of L. A. Awesome guy. Shout out to Justin Crane and help me with the business and make sure all the numbers are right, but also is helping me on the personal side and make sure that all my, you know, I was, he found I was paying too much for a lot of them.
[00:27:52] Steve Fretzin: The money market stocks I was in and things like that. Really cool stuff. So let’s talk about the game changing podcast. And this one I think has come up once before and I have to check it out. I’m really kicking myself. I haven’t, but the Tim Ferriss show, you would just share a little bit about that, Brian.
[00:28:08] Brian Zapf: Yeah, so Tim Ferriss, you know, he’s the author of the 4 Hour Workweek, you know, 4 Hour Body and some other stuff under that brand, but I love that he’s really just focused on kind of exploring his own curiosity. And he has on a lot of kind of well known entrepreneurs and, you know, celebrities and just people who are really thinking differently about kind of how do you get the most out of life.
[00:28:31] Brian Zapf: And out of your business. So I, I definitely recommend it. It’s a good one to listen to when you’re at the gym or doing chores around the house. So,
[00:28:38] Steve Fretzin: okay. Yeah, always a good time to do podcasts doing that. I like in the car, walking the dog. Yeah. Let’s take a moment to thank our sponsors, Rankings. io, if you’re looking to get some real results on your website and bringing in actual leads in business so that you can make more money.
[00:28:55] Steve Fretzin: And, Invest in folks like me and Brian that’s, you don’t want to talk, look at rankings IO and of course, shout out to Sonia Palmer hosts, an amazing show for women in law called law her check it out. And of course, I want to just share a little bit about sales free selling. I had an incredible class.
[00:29:11] Steve Fretzin: I teach classes every. Tuesday morning, Brian, and I’ve got about 15 lawyers from around the world that are in this class to learn business development for me. And we, we did a group role play of my sales free selling process where I played the prospect and they played the lawyer. And basically had them tag team in and out of the role play at different points.
[00:29:33] Steve Fretzin: And it was amazing to watch them all in coordination, being able to step in at any point and take over. In a, you’re a big fan of process. Well, guess what? This is all a process that they’ve learned and are learning. And it was just so wonderful. And the takeaways they had from that was just how impressed they were that everybody was able to step in and really ask the right questions and run the meeting in a way without us having to pitch, without us having to talk rates, pre consulting, all out the window.
[00:29:58] Steve Fretzin: This is all. You know, controlling the meeting consultatively, et cetera. So shout out to me for sales free selling. And you can buy that book on Amazon in three different formats. But if you want to audit a class and you want to like, what are these lawyers doing with Fretzin in this class? Just email me at steve at Fretzin.
[00:30:16] Steve Fretzin: com and we’ll talk and we’ll get you in the class for an audit. It’s all good. Brian, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to, they look, I have a law firm and everything’s, you know, dysfunctional, or I just want to know that, that I’m on the right track. And they want to reach out to you. What are the best ways for them to do so?
[00:30:32] Brian Zapf: Sure. Yeah. They can email me. My email is Brian, B R I A N at flight. financial. And they can go to my LinkedIn page, you know, Brian Zaff, or they can go to my website, flight. financial. And I offer a free, just kind of upfront strategy consultation. And we’ll take a look at where you’re at in your business and, you know, opportunities for growth and what might be holding you back.
[00:30:55] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. And by the way, everybody it’s Z A P F. In case you’re wondering, we didn’t really talk about that. It’s all in the show notes. All of Brian’s connections and information as well. Hey man, thanks for being on the show, sharing your wisdom. We covered actually a lot of ground in 30 minutes and I’m really just happy with everything that you’re able to share.
[00:31:13] Steve Fretzin: So whether you’re a lawyer looking to go out on your own or that you’re currently on your own or is running a small firm, you know, this is the kind of stuff that you’re going to want to know so that you can really make this business work for you long term. So thanks man. Thanks for being great. Yeah.
[00:31:27] Steve Fretzin: Thanks for having me on Steve. This was great. Yeah. My pleasure. And thank you everybody for spending time with Brian and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. Talk again soon.
[00:31:44] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.