In this episode, Steve, Camille, and Brenda discuss:
- Law firm compensation structures and challenges
- The role of transparency in legal industry compensation
- Succession planning and generational shifts in law firms
- Recruiting and retaining legal talent in a competitive market
Key Takeaways:
- Non-equity partnership tracks are becoming common, allowing lawyers to learn financial and managerial aspects before committing to buy-ins.
- Law school debt significantly influences young lawyers’ careers, with some firms offering loan reimbursement to attract top talent.
- Compensation plans should align with a firm’s goals and offer flexibility to retain high performers while balancing work-life needs.
- Origination credit structures can create competition within firms, but when managed well, they enhance succession planning and stability.
“If you’re willing to have conversations with people about what they want in life… you’re speaking their love language at that point.” — Camille Stell
“I had a partner tell me a long time ago, ‘I don’t need any new clients because all of our conference rooms are full,’ and I’m just thinking how short-sighted that could possibly be.” — Brenda Barnes
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Episode References:
Financial Feminist Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/financial-feminist/id1566054936
About Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes: Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes are the authors of the newly published 2nd Edition of Respect: An Insight to Attorney Compensation Plans. Brenda and Camille are available for consults in succession planning, path to partnership, and compensation plans, including financial formulas for capital buy-in and retirement buy-out.
Connect with Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes:
Website: http://www.lawyersmutualconsulting.com & http://www.brenda-barnes.com
Book: RESPECT – An Insight to Attorney Compensation Plans:
https://www.amazon.com/RESPECT-Insight-Attorney-Compensation-Plans/dp/1734108665
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camillestell/ & https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendabarnes/
Twitter: https://x.com/barneslegalmgmt
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, my Be That Lawyer fans. Are you struggling with the same uphill battle? Growing new business without losing your sanity? It might be time management, a lack of a structured plan, or outdated business development strategies that are keeping you from reaching your full potential. But what if I told you there’s a better way?
[00:00:16] Steve Fretzin: In this exclusive, no presentation, no PowerPoint, interactive 60 minute session, you’ll work directly with me on your specific challenges. This event is a no brainer. Please join me on November 15th from 1 to 2 p. m. Central to level up your B. E. D. game. Seating is limited to only the first 20 attorneys who register, so get to it now.
[00:00:35] Steve Fretzin: Go to my website Fretzin. com slash events to sign up today and hope to see you there.
[00:00:44] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in law. Hey everybody, welcome back. It’s Steve Fretzin
[00:01:05] Steve Fretzin: and you know what I’m up to.
[00:01:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s all about being that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. This is the podcast that does nothing but help attorneys to be their best selves, live their best lawyer lives, and have some fun along the way. And my job is to also bring you great guests. Today is no different. I’ve got two fantastic guests that I’m going to interview and have a great conversation with.
[00:01:28] Steve Fretzin: Camille and Brenda and we are going to start off with our quote of the show And when you sent this to me, I got a trip out of it right away I thought it was great and it is it’s by Richard Suskind and it is The traditional law firm business model is broken. However, it’s hard to convince a room full of millionaires that this is accurate All right.
[00:01:49] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, you think about the rich, the rich guy, I guess, at the top of the heap that is, you know, been the rainmaker for his own firm or whatever it might be, it’s making all this money. Maybe not so great for everybody else, but that individual would, would have a hard time arguing that he needs to change anything.
[00:02:04] Steve Fretzin: But that’s what we’re here to talk about. We’re here to talk about all that. So as we get into it, I mean, first of all. Tell me a little bit about the the idea that about that quote like what either fascinated you about or why do you feel it’s I mean, it’s very obviously very clever.
[00:02:17] Camille Stell: Yeah Because as I talk to lawyers, I hear them talk about law firm the business of law as though they were still practicing 40 years ago and I have lots of ideas and thoughts and suggestions about how to do things differently and They look at me You Puzzled because they are doing great financially.
[00:02:42] Camille Stell: The firm, you know, is rewarding them in just the way they want to be rewarded. Now, you know, the things that they don’t have, or the problems that they have are outdated pay structures, pay inequities, lack of transparency, no defined path to partnership, no succession planning. Those are problems. For the whole firm, they resonate with the people around them, but the owner continues to say, Hey, I don’t see anything wrong with this.
[00:03:15] Camille Stell: I built it. I’ll do it the way I want.
[00:03:17] Steve Fretzin: Yep. And again, I think that’s fine for certain people in certain circumstances. Brenda, how about for you on this quote?
[00:03:24] Brenda Barnes: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, similar to what Camille said, I think it’s, it’s really challenging. I mean, I had a partner tell me a long time ago, I don’t need any new clients because all of our conference rooms are full and I’m just thinking how short sighted that could possibly be.
[00:03:38] Brenda Barnes: Yeah. Same when you’re talking about compensation and one of the things that we really try to impress upon the key owners of law firms is, you know, what about everybody else and the respect that you’re giving them. So yes.
[00:03:51] Steve Fretzin: All right. Well, much appreciated that. Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes, you are lawyers mutual consulting and services.
[00:03:57] Steve Fretzin: You’ve got this great book, Respect and Insight to Attorney Compensation Plans right here. You two are the experts I wanted to meet and talk about compensation with. Before we get into the weeds on that though, I think it’s good to know your backgrounds and sort of Why are you two experts in this area?
[00:04:12] Steve Fretzin: What, what brought you to this? Why don’t we start with Brenda and then we’ll go to Camille after that.
[00:04:16] Brenda Barnes: Yeah, sure. So I’ve been working with lawyers 35 plus years. I’m a CPA. I’m an MBA. I’m a Texas girl. I have worked in law firm management since I was 25 years old. So I’ve been working with lawyers forever.
[00:04:30] Brenda Barnes: Had my own billing and accounting firm that I started in 2008, sold it in 21, and then really launched my consultancy practice. And that focuses on compensation, succession, and financial management. So I’m all about the numbers Steve. So that’s really kind of, you know, my bottom line. Camille’s a lot more about the touchy feely part of
[00:04:52] Steve Fretzin: our process.
[00:04:53] Steve Fretzin: And I’m like, but what a great team you get the analytics side, you get the touchy feely side. I mean, that’s, it’s the partnerships that. Both people are the same. That’s usually how we come from
[00:05:02] Brenda Barnes: each other really well that way
[00:05:04] Steve Fretzin: Fantastic
[00:05:04] Brenda Barnes: camille and our second edition book is coming out soon And I I was looking at it with the editor today and I think we’ve doubled its size We’ve added a ton of new content lots more to kind of get your teeth into so
[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: awesome All right.
[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: Well, that’ll be coming out soon. We’ll keep an eye on that camille
[00:05:20] Camille Stell: steve I’ve also worked in law firms my whole career. I’ve worked as paralegal attorney recruiting business development and marketing I’ve worked with law firms as small as 7 lawyers, as large as 1, 000 plus. So, you know, like the commercial says, I’ve, I’ve seen a few things and I do think Brenda and I complement each other very well.
[00:05:43] Camille Stell: The way we fell into law firm compensation planning is just taking those calls from lawyers Always, often weren’t even able to identify their problem or their issue, but when we got down to it, it really started with a compensation plan that just wasn’t working. And our two different approaches seem to work well with lawyers.
[00:06:13] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, thank you. That’s great. So, I mean, two, two experts in, in working in legal for many, many years. And I guess, I guess, you know, what’s sort of the evolution of compensation plans? Because I think if we go back to the eighties and the nineties and the early two thousands, it’s probably one type of, of model.
[00:06:31] Steve Fretzin: And then now we’ve moved into other models. So what, what would you say Camille about, about how things have evolved over the last couple of years?
[00:06:39] Camille Stell: The thing that I look for when I’m talking to a firm about a modern compensation plan includes things like developing your plan to work with your law firm goals, transparency around your plan, having conversations with people so that they understand how they get paid.
[00:07:01] Camille Stell: It’s amazing, you know, So many small firms their comp plan is unique, right? It’s formula based. They’ve decided a tweak here, a tweak there. The formulas are complex. There’s a little bit of that benevolent owner who sprinkles some grace in if you don’t meet your numbers the way you should. But it’s really hard to talk about that.
[00:07:28] Camille Stell: As a plan and as a result, if you can’t describe it as a plan, how are you going to recruit lawyers? How are you going to recruit laterals to come into the firm? So you know, written plans with transparency written paths to partnership with specific criteria for meeting those goals. That makes all the difference in the world in the success of a law firm and the sustainability of a law firm.
[00:07:56] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And those compensation plans advance the law firm’s strategic goals, Brenda, correct?
[00:08:01] Brenda Barnes: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it’s getting away from the black box, right? That you read so much about. It’s it’s really establishing a path that is transparent. Again, we use that word, but that isn’t transparent to all of the the attorneys in the firm so they understand we’re seeing a lot more of the two tiered system.
[00:08:20] Brenda Barnes: Now, the non equity and equity plans and for various reasons, you know, years ago, the non equity classification was added. You know, just to, to kind of move some of the senior associates over to a different class. But, but now it’s really a, a great learning opportunity for lawyers to move in from non equity.
[00:08:41] Brenda Barnes: So, regarding the strategic plans, you know. What we always say is, you know, you, you must have a strategic plan and you’re in your law firm. And if you don’t, then you need to, to, you know, get somebody that can assist you. It doesn’t have to be complex, but you need to know what your growth initiatives are and what are some of your pain points in the firm and your compensation plan has to be part of that because you want to incentivize the partners to accomplish those goals.
[00:09:10] Brenda Barnes: And, you know, we talk about the intertwine of culture and compensation plans and how one can form the other, but oftentimes you know, culture needs to be revisited. And sometimes the, especially when you’re talking about multi generational law firms that are going from, you know, the first, you know, the, the, the name partners, if you will, to the, the, to the second tier, third generation of, of group, you know, it just needs to have.
[00:09:37] Brenda Barnes: A little bit more thought as to what you’re really trying to motivate in your compensation plan.
[00:09:42] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,
[00:09:43] Brenda Barnes: I’m
[00:09:44] Steve Fretzin: sorry. You really like, I really like that you brought up the compensation plan in, in recruiting in the same sentence, because I feel like now they’re there. I mean, I’m talking to lawyers all day, every day.
[00:09:56] Steve Fretzin: And the biggest challenge they have right now is hiring, recruiting and hiring. I mean, they’re, they are way overworked. A lot of the ones that I’m talking to And they struggle with recruiting. And I’m wondering if it’s, if, if part of that is there’s not a lot of attorneys. And the other part of it is, are they building a culture that includes the compensation plan that maybe goes beyond just money?
[00:10:19] Steve Fretzin: So do you want to, do you want to address that first?
[00:10:22] Camille Stell: Yeah, you know, I think that 1 of the biggest problems that lawyers have today in recruiting is the incredible amount of law school debt that recent graduates are carrying. There was an ABA study in 2020. with the Young Lawyers Division, and the numbers are shocking.
[00:10:45] Camille Stell: More than 75 percent of respondents had at least 100, 000 in debt when they retired, and you know, 25 percent had more than 200, 000. So that really limits people. So you’ve got folks who are maybe going to big law. Because they’ve got the grades to get there, but they also need that paycheck. And so small and mid sized firms are going to have to find a way to compete with big law and every other employer.
[00:11:22] Camille Stell: And If you look at it only as what can the paycheck be, you’re going to be limited, right? Because revenues are just not that strong in many small firms. But if you’re willing to have conversations with people about what they want in life, what they hope to accomplish, what their aspirations are, what they see for their career, and you’re willing to show flexibility, Encouragement, innovation, you’re speaking their love language at that point.
[00:11:56] Camille Stell: And so I think that’s the place where law firms have to get out of their own way and they have to be more receptive to what a modern workplace looks like. Yeah. Brenda.
[00:12:10] Brenda Barnes: Well, yeah, I mean, and piggyback on that. I mean, think about not only the law firm debt, but then, you know, six, eight years from now, you’re looking at possibly a high buy in to be an equity partner.
[00:12:21] Brenda Barnes: You put that on top of, you know, whatever their debt that’s probably still being paid off and it becomes almost you know, a resistance factor for the attorney. So, you know, what you can, what, what owners of law firms need to do is really address that, the buy in and how, and the affordability of it, Making sure that when you ask somebody to the table they deserve to be there for number one But but but to that they can afford to be there and then you’ve really you know again going back to the numbers You really got to have the numbers to be able to produce to be able to to to You know, pay your way, it’s your law firms, a professional service group, right?
[00:12:58] Brenda Barnes: Doesn’t matter if you’re hourly or flat fee, you still are professional service group. And, you know, there’s only so much of that and, you know, to increase that top line revenue. And, you know, the consideration has to be given to how to. Recruit and retain those associates in a way that rewards them certainly, but also couples it with some of the more soft skills and some more soft areas.
[00:13:23] Brenda Barnes: Yeah.
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[00:13:44] Steve Fretzin: io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been a problem. What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
[00:14:07] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shopping, with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, bretson. com and apply for membership today. So what are like the top three things that a lawyer should be looking for in a compensation plan that, you know, again, money is a big part of it, right?
[00:14:31] Steve Fretzin: You got, you got, you got to make, make the Benjamins, but there’s other aspects of a compensation plan that I think my, you know, maybe it’s how soon can I make equity? What does it take to get to make equity? And that’s important to some people. There are a lot of lawyers that don’t want to make equity.
[00:14:45] Steve Fretzin: They don’t want to deal with that ownership and dealing and be a part of that. They just want to do their work and make some money and sock it away, that type of thing. But what, what would you say are the kind of Camille, what are some of the top areas there? If you can
[00:14:59] Camille Stell: start talking early about what it takes to get there, that’s going to make a big difference.
[00:15:06] Camille Stell: So, for instance, you approach a senior associate and say, hey, love for you to become an equity partner. All you need to do is write me a check for 100, 000 next week and welcome, welcome to ownership. That person is probably going to run as fast as they can. But if you spend time talking with them, letting them see a little bit about what’s going on, I think you’ll get buy in much earlier.
[00:15:38] Camille Stell: So, that’s one reason that I think having a non equity seat is important for particularly small to mid sized firms, right? It used to be sort of an off ramp for big law, but I think small and mid sized firms can make it just a part of the path. So, you spend two years learning how to be a partner, Learning about the financial responsibilities of being an owner and preparing yourself for your financial contribution.
[00:16:07] Camille Stell: And I think that goes a long way towards being a solid compensation plan. So, you know, having a non equity track, having some awareness and transparency around what the financial or capital contribution will be are two important factors of that comp plan. Okay.
[00:16:27] Steve Fretzin: And what about things like health care, insurance, paternity, maternity leave, time off virtual versus in the office?
[00:16:36] Steve Fretzin: Are those part of a compensation plan or those, are those separate?
[00:16:40] Brenda Barnes: No, that, I mean, certainly so, you know, just to kind of, again, what Camille was just saying, you know, the law firm owners need to realize there’s going to be flexibility in compensation plans because everyone is motivated differently, as you’ve just pointed out.
[00:16:52] Brenda Barnes: But you also run the risk of losing some of your high performers if you don’t pay attention to that they need to be compensated well. So typically that is based on their origination credit, based upon their, you know, how much they collect, based upon their supervision of associates, that sort of thing.
[00:17:08] Brenda Barnes: There are also attorneys that don’t want to work, you know, 2200 billable hours, and there needs to be a track for them. That is just as fair and reasonable as those high producers. So you really have got to have a flexible compensation plan to really address the different tiers that you are going to have.
[00:17:27] Brenda Barnes: We run into that all the time now with clients where it’s like, well, that’s I understand why we need to have this plan. I don’t want to work that part. I don’t want to meet those minimum requirements, but I’m a really good lawyer and I have some really good connections and I’m, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:17:41] Brenda Barnes: So I think there’s got to be some, some flexibility that’s built in to be able to accommodate, you know, most of the lawyers that you want to retain. Right? Yeah. Brenda or Camille.
[00:17:53] Camille Stell: I was just going to say for benefits. I think that that is a place where solo small firm, midsize firms can really offer something different.
[00:18:02] Camille Stell: Right? Look at those non monetary incentives, like Flexibility, you know, hybrid working conditions. I have a firm in North Carolina that is offering law school reimbursement as part of their financial package. They set aside a lump sum for those associates each year that they pay towards their law school debt.
[00:18:28] Camille Stell: That really gets people’s attention right in a way that nobody else is talking about. So. You know, ask your associates what’s important to them and then develop a plan that works for them.
[00:18:45] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I love that. I love that. One of the things that I’m, you know, known for, and maybe I’m popular in the attorney community for, is Helping lawyers focus on the origination piece of the compensation and getting to that million dollar, 2 million plus mark.
[00:19:01] Steve Fretzin: Those lawyers seem to be very happy with me. And I think I know why, and I think you know why. Can you describe a little bit, and I’m going to start with Brendan on this, the difference between someone who bills 2, 000 hours a year, and that’s sort of their life, and then someone that maybe bills The same but also is bringing in a million dollars into the firm or more.
[00:19:21] Steve Fretzin: What’s again? We know that takes more time and eventually my hope is that the billable hour will go down as the originations Go up so they can focus on that particular role. But can you talk through that a little bit with with everybody?
[00:19:33] Brenda Barnes: Sure. So I mean, you know when you’re building a business, right?
[00:19:36] Brenda Barnes: You you’ve got to have increased your top line revenue Good compensation system is going to reward partners for new business generation. Usually we see that their origination credit, right? So, typically hard dollars we see anywhere from between 15 and 25 percent of collections that come in that will be credited as origination.
[00:19:58] Brenda Barnes: Credit that is a you know, is it a defined term of origination credit or is it in perpetuity? Right? So you know, partners can, especially in the beginning of their careers can build a residual income into their compensation base. When they go out and get new clients for the firm that other people are working on, not them.
[00:20:18] Brenda Barnes: Right. So, you know, so the only obstacles that the firm runs into is when you start talking about succession planning and how do you transition that client from one generation to the next, or to a partner that’s the relationship partner and no longer the origination partner, but you can certainly increase your compensation and it’s, it’s in the best interest of the firm.
[00:20:39] Brenda Barnes: So, you know, to have to encourage partners to go out and get new business are all partners comfortable with that. No, no. And, you know, there’s that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, they’re going to be rainmakers and then they’re going to be the worker bees. And but you need to compensate those that do. That’s why you’re seeing so much lateral recruitment.
[00:20:55] Brenda Barnes: And that’s what you want to try to hedge against.
[00:21:03] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You want them bought into your firm. And again, having the right plan, right path, transparency. These are all factors in good culture to them not leaving. But that isn’t happening like it should. Camille? That’s right.
[00:21:15] Camille Stell: I think some firms could plan ahead with using originations as a, as a tool to help with succession.
[00:21:25] Camille Stell: So, think about, you know, whether you want to use trailing origination fees for partners who are retiring. Think about how you want to create succession plan from, you know, senior partner to junior partner, Partner to senior associate and different rewards along the way around origination and sharing origination.
[00:21:50] Camille Stell: And then I would say some of the fights that I see in law firm, you know, battling over the money is when an originated client has really become a. Firm client. And so every matter that comes in starts becoming a little bit of a fight over who gets a piece of it. So you really need a structure around originations, but it can move the needle in a very positive way for the firm.
[00:22:20] Camille Stell: If, if people use origination credits
[00:22:22] Steve Fretzin: properly. Okay. So just as an example, if someone would make, let’s just make up a number and say 250, 000 Doing the 2000 hours, that’s sort of what their base is for that number. And then on top of that, they’re getting 20% on a million dollars. Right. That’s 200,000. So they’re, yeah, they’re making four 50 when a normal, a regular attorney’s making two 50.
[00:22:43] Steve Fretzin: That’s right. Yeah, exactly. And just up. And it goes up and up and up from there. Up and up and up. Yep. Yep, yep. And again, I think the piece that I’d like like to just tout is the, you know, portability that you mentioned, the idea that that’s your control in. The relationship with the firm is if you want to make equity or if you want to have some power in that firm and their decision making and how the culture is built or whatever, you have a book of business.
[00:23:06] Steve Fretzin: And if you don’t like what they’re doing, you can take your toy and go and go somewhere else or home or whatever. But that’s really important for lawyers to understand the not only the portability But the the ability to make that kind of revenue and you know, just be in a position to to really control your future
[00:23:21] Brenda Barnes: Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a power base For sure.
[00:23:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, okay A
[00:23:27] Camille Stell: way for a lawyer to find more joy in their job, right? If you are out looking for the kinds of clients you want And the people that you enjoy working with that, you know, that has got to make those 2200 hours more palatable. So it just gives you, I think, much more control over what your day to day looks like, not just the revenue, which is important, but you also want to work with people that you enjoy working with and choosing your own client base is a great way to do that.
[00:24:03] Steve Fretzin: Well, a lot of firms are getting gobbled up by, by bigger players are merging and things like that. And then you realize, you know, I don’t like these people. I didn’t, I didn’t sign up to be a part of this big firm, but I don’t have any options now because I don’t have a book of business that I can take with me.
[00:24:17] Steve Fretzin: I can go out on my own and start from scratch, but You know, that’s, that’s a huge risk and not everybody’s up for that. Less of a risk if we talk, but it’s still a risk nonetheless to not have client, a client base to take with you. So I guess the last thing I wanted to, to, to ask you about was, are there any, any trends?
[00:24:34] Steve Fretzin: That are happening now that weren’t happening 345 years ago that would be helpful to, you know, either law firm owners or to law firm members that you would be willing to share meal.
[00:24:46] Camille Stell: I see pay transparency as a. Hot topic today. Certainly we’re seeing, you know, some states in that legislation around pay transparency.
[00:24:57] Camille Stell: And so, you know, the needle’s going to move as a result of that. But as long as people are working in law firms they are talking to each other about what their pay looks like. And, you know, if you were again trying to compete with everybody up and down the street, you know, It’s important for you to know what they’re doing.
[00:25:18] Camille Stell: And so the more that I see partners threaten Associates with don’t discuss pay. I mean all that does is make them want to know more so
[00:25:29] Steve Fretzin: what’s behind the door?
[00:25:30] Camille Stell: That’s exactly right. So so you’ve got to talk about it and to me pay transparency includes What kind of time frame are we looking at for a path to partnership?
[00:25:43] Camille Stell: What are the criteria for path to partnership? How much of a book of business do I need to have in order to become partner? What does my buy in look like? I think all of those are components of pay transparency. And then maybe a little earlier down the process, too, it’s just letting people know what you’re compensating them for when they start in the firm as new lawyers.
[00:26:07] Camille Stell: So, for instance, you know, I hear about gender bias a lot, right? So I think that that’s something that, that law firms are going to have to address. But it could be as simple as, well, you Did you know that the reason that the lawyer in the office next to you makes more money is because they came to us with a two year judicial court clerkship and we attribute dollars to that.
[00:26:34] Camille Stell: So if you’re not talking about it and telling the good side of what you’re doing, then your associates are assuming the worst. Yeah. Brenda,
[00:26:45] Steve Fretzin: final thoughts on that.
[00:26:46] Brenda Barnes: Yeah, I mean, I, I think the other thing that I’m seeing, or at least we’re encouraging is kind of what Camille alluded to earlier about biases that are inherent in law firm compensation systems.
[00:26:56] Brenda Barnes: You know, that is extremely important to, to many now of, of testing those biases and making sure that they disrupt them. And we’ve got. Well, we’ve got a bunch of programs that you can address to just make sure that, you know, an origination credit and how it’s distributed. Is it fair? And, and, you know, who’s getting the new file, who’s getting asked to be on the new litigation cases, you know, that sort of thing.
[00:27:18] Brenda Barnes: All of those are embedded in a compensation system. And we’re starting to see more and more attention paid to that because it’s important to the generations that are coming into the law firms now.
[00:27:29] Steve Fretzin: Well, awesome. So much great information. I appreciate that. So much the Game changing podcast for today is the Financial Feminist by Tori Dunlap.
[00:27:37] Steve Fretzin: Camille, do you want to share why that is a game changing podcast? It sounds interesting.
[00:27:41] Camille Stell: So I think Tori is fantastic. She’s extraordinarily knowledgeable. She, you know, shares her experiences. She shares her successes and her failures. But she’s really talking to young people, you know, that generation that it’s not going to be as easy for them to build well.
[00:28:03] Camille Stell: It’s not going to be as easy for them to be sitting in the partner’s chair. It’s not going to be as easy for them to come up with a six pack. Figure you know, capital investment, and she’s got a lot of advice and common sense practical, plus she’s just fun to listen to. There
[00:28:24] Steve Fretzin: we go. Brenna, any
[00:28:25] Brenda Barnes: thoughts on that?
[00:28:26] Brenda Barnes: Did you listen to the show as well? I do and it’s great. So I would Encourage you to do so. Awesome. Awesome.
[00:28:33] Steve Fretzin: Thank you so much guys the sponsors I want to thank today are myself with my rainmakers roundtables working with the managing partners and rainmakers all over the country To help them get off their island and really focus on building their law practices with things like compensation Like I would have you guys as a guest At my rainmaker roundtables to talk about comp and to answer tough questions and Consult them because these questions are coming up and they’re sharing their own Ideas about it and what they’re doing openly in a confidential environment But they love when I bring in marketing experts, you know, time management experts, anything that, where they’re kind of feeling some pain and they’re looking to get some help on that subject.
[00:29:10] Steve Fretzin: So that might be an offline conversation. And of course rankings IO helping everybody with their mostly personal injury, but focused on websites and SEO and pay per click and just getting the lead generation going for firms that need it. Of course, shout out to our friends at LawHer Podcast.
[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: Amazing show. People want to reach out to you, Camille and Brenda, to learn more about your business. They can pick up your book on, I’m assuming on Amazon,
[00:29:35] Camille Stell: right? That’s right. An Insight
[00:29:36] Steve Fretzin: to Attorney Compensation Plans. And what are the best digits for them to find you if they want to reach out to you about their comp plan?
[00:29:43] Camille Stell: Connect with us on LinkedIn. That’s an easy place to do it. And we will definitely respond. And we both have websites, lawyers, mutual consulting. com and Brenda Barnes management. com.
[00:29:57] Steve Fretzin: And that’ll all be in the show notes. So you guys don’t have to worry if you don’t have a pen, you’re driving keep your eyes on the road.
[00:30:03] Steve Fretzin: And just go to the show notes and thank you both Thank you guys for reaching out and for meeting with me and sharing your wisdom. I appreciate it so much enjoyed it. Thank you
[00:30:12] Camille Stell: Thanks
[00:30:12] Steve Fretzin: for having it. Good good And thank you everybody for spending time with us today on the be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast Oh, man, it’s whether you’re a lawyer that is feeling the pain of of not understanding the compensation and the lack of transparency Maybe you have some Some catch some questions you can ask or some things that might help to draw some clarity and if you’re managing a firm again The importance of building culture with a compensation plan that’s going to get you the right people all good stuff Everybody it’s all about helping you be that lawyer confident organized and skilled rainmaker Take care.
[00:30:43] Steve Fretzin: Everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.
[00:30:50] Narrator: Thanks for listening To be that Lawyer life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.