Chris Brencans: Optimizing SEO for Your Law Firm

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chris Brencans discuss:

  • Getting backlinks to your website from other trusted websites.
  • Taking advantage of the EAT – expertise, authority, trustworthiness.
  • Scaling your local SEO efforts and tracking the traffic and leads.
  • AI and legal marketing.

Key Takeaways:

  • It is hard to refer someone when there is no information. You need to understand and leverage information about yourself online.
  • Fixing your website fundamentals will make a big difference to your online presence.
  • Getting a lead does not mean it will automatically convert. There are steps that will need to be followed, and those steps should be systemized and understood.
  • AI is changing how search results are generated for you at the moment. Bing is already using it, and Google is working on rolling it out.

“With the EAT – expertise, authority, trustworthiness – you want to index a lot more information about you as an individual, you as a persona, as a brand.” —  Chris Brencans

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About Chris Brencans: Kristaps started as a project manager at On The Map Marketing in 2015 and now runs the day-to-day operations as the company’s chief executive officer. In the last few years, he has overseen thousands of successful SEO campaigns for lawyers, contractors, E-commerce stores, and other businesses. He’s also a proud parent of three divas and takes a keen interest in running and calisthenics.

Connect with Chris Brencans:  







Law Firms On The Map Podcast:

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Chris Brencans: If you appear on podcasts, you’re able to get backlinks to your website. That’s one. But now with the EAT, expertise, authority, trustworthiness, you want to index a lot more information about you as a As an individual, you, as a persona, as a brand.

[00:00:23] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:45] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And as the announcer mentioned, I hope you’re having a lovely day today. Um, it’s so funny. I started recording with Chris a couple of days ago, and I think you were my like 11th meeting of the day. I had like a marathon day and I felt terrible Chris, because we had about five minutes into the interview and I realized that the sound quality wasn’t where it needed to be.

[00:01:07] Steve Fretzin: And we, we decided to stop and reboot and, uh, I’m so happy we did that because I think, you know, not only is the content important, but also the sound quality. And when you get those two things together, it makes the show much more palpable. So anyway, Chris, how are you today? Doing

[00:01:23] Chris Brencans: great, Steve. Doing great.

[00:01:24] Chris Brencans: Uh, it’s a pleasure to be on your podcast. And, uh, I appreciated your, uh, interruption because now you improved my sound system.

[00:01:32] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think you’ve got your own podcast you’re building and I think, uh, we want to make sure your sound is good for that one too.

[00:01:38] Chris Brencans: Yes, absolutely. I think, uh, my production team is also very thankful because I think they’ve been trying to tell me this for a while now.

[00:01:45] Chris Brencans: And, uh, you’re the one who figured out how to fix it.

[00:01:49] Steve Fretzin: Well, me and Mr. I’m Mr. Technical. So not, not at all. I mean, I changed light bulbs. That’s about my extent of my technical experience. But, uh, anyway, I, I lost a bunch of shows years ago when my teenager messed with the gain on my microphone and I, and I didn’t realize it.

[00:02:04] Steve Fretzin: Nobody had the, the, the, you know, the ability to tell me, or they thought maybe that I just like to talk loudly. I’m not sure, but I eventually fixed it. I was beside myself about it. But, um, yeah. Anyway, listen, we will get to that in a moment. Um, Chris, so happy you’re here. We’ve got a quote of the show, which is where we love to start and it is the absolute best way your brand can stand out in search generative experience.

[00:02:27] Steve Fretzin: Landscape is to invest in building out profiles and reputations of your experts. So that’s a very, you know, specific quote about what our main topic is today, which is, you know, digital marketing. And digital media. So, uh, tell me about that quote and kind of why you decided to submit that as your as your quote of the show being

[00:02:51] Chris Brencans: a SEO professional and CEO of on the map marketing.

[00:02:56] Chris Brencans: That is digital marketing agency. That’s heavily focused on lawyers. Everyone is asking question. Where is the search marketing going? And I thought that would be a great quote to use as a core focus of our conversation. Um, and yeah, that’s, uh, uh, I figured that’s going to be a good angle, uh, to, to structure our

[00:03:15] Steve Fretzin: conversation.

[00:03:16] Steve Fretzin: Well, I think it, it also relates to the fact that law firms really need to leverage the expertise of their professionals, their writing, um, their speaking, the things that they can put out in front that are going to create content and other elements to build up their. They’re the value of their site and the SEO search engine optimization of their site.

[00:03:38] Steve Fretzin: Is that a piece of it as well?

[00:03:40] Chris Brencans: Absolutely. And you, you’re very correct, Steve, especially attorneys. They have such big opportunities to publish themselves on different articles. Uh, expand their expertise in general that they hold. And now this part of personal branding and search engine optimization is really overlapping in 2023.

[00:04:03] Chris Brencans: And it’s exciting topic for us because we’re helping our clients build their personal brands and generate more business through SEO. So it’s kind of perfect overlap. And from personal side, that’s an effort we’re making as well. Uh, we’re ranking for keyword terms like lawyer, SEO, lawyer, marketing, and big effort while I’m also on podcast is to build my personal brand and to promote our brand, and this way we’re able to increase our SEO rankings as well.

[00:04:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, a backlink from my website for my show is, is it might as well be Google. I mean, it might as well be, you know, some of the biggest corporations in the world. No, I’m just kidding. Um, but it’s a,

[00:04:41] Chris Brencans: but your authority is good. Your side authority is good and it has the contextual relevance. So if I’m an attorney and I’m on your podcast, I’m actually getting highly valuable backlink rather than buying a link.

[00:04:53] Chris Brencans: I’m sure everyone here has heard about backlinks and

[00:04:57] Steve Fretzin: buying backlinks, which is not great,

[00:04:59] Chris Brencans: right? But now if I appear on your podcast, I’m getting a real conversation. There’s a page indexed about my name, about my company, and I get a link back from your site, which is a lot more valuable than some average article on, uh, God knows what site.

[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: Now, should I be getting, uh, my, this podcast on your site as a backlink to my website? Is that, is that what I should be looking to do as, as someone who is trying to continue to grow my SEO?

[00:05:26] Chris Brencans: In that case, we’re going to create what’s called reciprocal links. And there’s actually, it used to be a technique that worked, but now it doesn’t really work.

[00:05:34] Chris Brencans: But we could make a deal where I give you a link from a third website that I control.

[00:05:39] Steve Fretzin: Oh, okay. All right. Well, I might have to talk offline about that. I’m looking for some, some link action, if you will.

[00:05:46] Chris Brencans: And actually link exchanges is a big thing in SEO world where SEOs work with other SEOs and they’re saying, Hey, I’m going to have a link on this article.

[00:05:55] Chris Brencans: And then that SEO says, okay, I’m publishing an article on this website. So I’ll give you your, uh, your, uh,

[00:06:03] Steve Fretzin: like a barter system. It absolutely is. Yes. Yes. Oh, wow. I never even knew that. So we’re learning about the backside of backlinks, right? The, the, the, the, the dark, the dark backlink web, you know, if you will.

[00:06:15] Chris Brencans: Yeah. We started with the underbelly of SEO. Let’s just go

[00:06:18] Steve Fretzin: with it. What else can you tell us that’s going on behind the scenes, Chris? This is getting real interesting, real fast.

[00:06:24] Chris Brencans: Oh, well, I, well, I’m really excited about podcasts in general. And I think that’s something that maybe a lot of law lawyers haven’t recognized yet as an opportunity.

[00:06:36] Chris Brencans: If you appear on podcasts, you’re able to get backlinks to your website. And that’s one, but now with the EIT expertise, authority, trustworthiness. You want to index a lot more information about you as a, as an individual, you as a persona, as a brand. So if I’m appearing on podcasts, I’m, I’m able to knock out both stone, both birds, one stone, because I get a Mackling and there’s information indexed about me.

[00:07:04] Chris Brencans: Maybe there’s also a YouTube video recorded where I appear now that’s getting published on YouTube as well. So with that being the case. You asked me this, what is a one kind of useful tip I could give your audience? I think a good starting point is just going to Google and typing in your name. I mean, we know how much attorneys love themselves, right?

[00:07:25] Steve Fretzin: Ha ha ha. Leverage, leverage, leverage the ego guys.

[00:07:28] Chris Brencans: Yeah, but everyone loves themselves. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s a known fact, but just check what Google serves when you type in your own name and Steve, I’d be interested to actually, for you to look at that as well, but that’s a core factor of the EAT Googler Google’s signals.

[00:07:46] Chris Brencans: You want to see where you’re come up as your personal brand. What is the information Google is? serving about you. And if the information is not, say, too, if there’s not too many results, that means you need to appear on more podcasts. You need to put yourself out there. Maybe record more YouTube videos.

[00:08:05] Chris Brencans: Just developing your personal brand is a big factor, you know, for link building itself, because now Google is indexing a lot more information about your name. And that means you’re becoming a lot more recognized. In Google’s eyes, but same time you’re building your personal brand and you’re in front of potential new audience.

[00:08:25] Chris Brencans: Now, it depends if you’re consumer attorney, you know, or or corporate, you know, there can be different audiences you want to target, but that’s a great factor. It’s just to start building out your own personal presence.

[00:08:39] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, I think I’ve got, I mean, I, I haven’t looked in a while, but I mean, it could be 30, 40, 50 pages of Google searches because I’ve been producing content for almost 20 years.

[00:08:52] Steve Fretzin: And yeah, I think most of it’s relevant, right, to the articles and the books and the podcasts and the things I’ve done. But I think to your point, there are attorneys that I’m trying to find an email for. There’s attorneys that I’m trying to refer things to, that I’m trying to observe to see if I, you know, can help them in some way or whatever.

[00:09:11] Steve Fretzin: And there’s nothing about them other than, you know, the standard avo and the standard stuff that doesn’t really give me the information. And I’m super frustrated by it. Because it even their linked in doesn’t provide their website doesn’t provide their email and I can’t it’s hard to refer someone where there’s no information.

[00:09:31] Chris Brencans: Yes and and we’re kind of coming back to this point of fundamentals like what information is out there about you and then how can you leverage that maybe think about it as almost PR how much positive information can I create online about myself and you can leverage your own social media. Yeah. And then build some form of collaboration with other websites, maybe some local newspapers.

[00:09:57] Chris Brencans: Being out on community there’s so many techniques that can be leveraged and they’re not super costly well i guess if you obviously

[00:10:06] Steve Fretzin: are it’s a depends type of

[00:10:08] Chris Brencans: situation yeah biggest cost is time but if one is willing to let’s say allocate five hours a week just in personal brand development. That will pay dividend

[00:10:19] Steve Fretzin: that will be given it but the other thing chris that i that i i posted i think if i might have posted it today on linkedin and again this show is aired about it you know a little bit in advance but essentially i was saying look if you just do one thing appear on a podcast or write an article or.

[00:10:37] Steve Fretzin: Um, or have a regular monthly column like I do in the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin or Legal Business World, whatever. Then that one thing leads to a social media post. That one thing leads to SEO on my website. That one thing can be, you know, broken down into pieces and, and, and used for other purposes.

[00:10:56] Steve Fretzin: Maybe a presentation. So it’s like, there’s so much that, that you can do just by doing one thing and then leveraging it multiple times in multiple ways, YouTube video, to your point. I mean, that’s, that’s what’s missing is that, is that A, we need to do that one thing and then B, we need to then take it and repurpose it.

[00:11:15] Chris Brencans: And you just used an absolutely brilliant example, having a column in Chicago Daily Law, what a better way to showcase your expertise, and you publish there once a week, once a week, once a week, and now that you are recognized in this one already highly reputable media site, now it’s easier to get backlinks from other ones, because you can use already your existing brand and say, hey, Hey, I’m already known.

[00:11:43] Chris Brencans: Can I contribute to yours? And that’s where your digital PR link building team can help. But. You’re absolutely right. Doing those things will massively help your search engine presence. And uh, yeah, Steve, those are some great examples. Well, hey, listen,

[00:11:58] Steve Fretzin: I’m, I, you know, I’m, I’m no spring chicken. You know, I, I, I want to practice what I preach here.

[00:12:03] Steve Fretzin: I’m helping attorneys build business. And while business development is a huge part of it, meaning going out and, and developing relationships, networking, attending events, whatever it might be, you know, actually, how do you like walk a buyer through buying decision? How do you sustain business? Okay. But while that’s going on, if you’re not also doing the marketing side, you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage because it’s like, you know, it’s like a one, two punch.

[00:12:27] Steve Fretzin: You’re going to do better getting both sides than one side alone. And so anything I can do to kind of advise and help send people to you. Send people to, you know, talk about getting a VA to help them with content, whatever it is, it’s all benefiting the lawyers I work with and the legal community and the people that actually want to develop business in a, in a serious way.

[00:12:47] Steve Fretzin: It’s a compounding

[00:12:48] Chris Brencans: effect. Absolutely. And I think big aspect to what you mentioned, taking action on all those activities and having a consistent plan. It doesn’t have to be an overboard plan, but just like 5. Hours a week, and, you know, exactly where you’re going to be doing, maybe your daily column, YouTube video and 1 podcast appearance and consistently doing that for, you know, year 1 year plus or longer.

[00:13:13] Chris Brencans: But other aspect that’s very important is that your fundamentals. Are in place. Let’s say for search engine optimization. And I think often SEO is being over complicated, you know, fixing your website fundamentals is not a hard task. You can hire, you know, a decent law firm, SEO expert that can do it for you.

[00:13:35] Chris Brencans: You know, I know attorneys that know SEO, even above average level, SEO is in general, they love this stuff. They get into it. So there’s some simple technical SEO things that need to be fixed and you can hire someone and they’ll do an audit and they can be executed. But then the other

[00:13:51] Steve Fretzin: ass… Yeah, but I was gonna, I’m sorry to interrupt you, Chris, but I’m thinking like, so let’s say that there are lawyers listening right now and they go, look, under no circumstances or reason, am I ever going to hire an SEO expert or work with SEO or whatever, because they’re a lawyer at a firm or they’re a solo that’s doing really well and necessarily looking for the business.

[00:14:13] Steve Fretzin: But they’re missing opportunities to make their website better to get that SEO. What are one or two tips that you would suggest that they can do themselves or that they should be like you mentioned Googling yourself. That’s a great tip to kind of see what’s going on. But what are some tips when someone is writing or is creating content?

[00:14:30] Steve Fretzin: How do they put that on their website in a way that’s going to be impactful versus just throwing it out? Because they might just throw it up and, and it doesn’t really have the same juice as maybe something else.

[00:14:41] Chris Brencans: Great question. So I think there’s two aspects how I would approach it. One is your practice area pages.

[00:14:46] Chris Brencans: That’s basically your landing pages that will attract that direct response visitor. Let’s say if you’re an employment lawyer, that could be employment lawyer, Philadelphia, making sure you have that page well thought out. Other aspect is Having supporting pages to that one practice area page. So building out your practice area pages, making sure those include keyword, your main keyword, your service keyword, and your city, because you will be targeting them, targeting them locally.

[00:15:18] Chris Brencans: Um, very few keywords are only nationwide keywords. Almost everything is going to be locally based. So you need to build out your site structure

[00:15:27] Steve Fretzin: a bit. Is there a web tool or something that someone can use and I hope we’re not giving away too many secrets, but is there a way to like, so I’m, I want to do a family law divorce in Philadelphia and I want to be ranked for that.

[00:15:42] Steve Fretzin: I’ve written an article, but I don’t know if that article is going to hit the mark to get found in certain keywords. Is there a website or some tool that people should be thinking about or using that would help? To make the article better for.

[00:15:57] Chris Brencans: So that’s a great question. Uh, there’s two tools you could consider.

[00:16:03] Chris Brencans: One is called surfer SEO. It’s a relatively inexpensive, but you can put in your article in, in that website. And it will compare your written article with already ranked articles, and it will give it a score how it rank, how it will perform against already existing ranking ones. And then you can, it gives you two suggestions.

[00:16:25] Chris Brencans: Oh, expand it by another thousand words. Use these keywords. And then other tool you would need is, it’s called SEO Minion. That shows you the optimization elements such as title tag and h1 tag. Now we’re getting a little bit more technical, but those are a little technical nuances you need to make sure are optimized correctly.

[00:16:46] Chris Brencans: Like, let’s say in your title tag, if you’re a family lawyer in Philadelphia, you want to make sure that actually is your title tag. And same goes to the H1 tag, which is the first heading on a page. I would say, maybe hire someone just for consultation to fix those things. Because it can get a little technical and someone with, you know, 15 year experience will take care of it in a matter of a couple of hours.

[00:17:09] Chris Brencans: Well, and the other thing is go pretty simple

[00:17:11] Steve Fretzin: stuff, but it go, but if you’re at a firm and you, you’re producing content that’s being put on the firm’s website, go to your marketing department, go to your marketing person and, and ask these questions to find out how they’re being ranked for SEO and they go, well, it’s, they’re not, we just put them up and, and we hope that, that it grabs something on the internet.

[00:17:31] Steve Fretzin: Well, no, we’re shame. I mean, to some degree for shame, because they’re not doing their job. And how you’re going to be found for that work in your city, for example. And I think if you’re on your own, then to Chris’s point, yeah, find someone that can, that can help advise you beyond the websites. And that’s going to be super helpful, you know, as well.

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[00:19:36] Chris Brencans: Make it rain. Visit GetVisible. com and stand out. And then another tool that’s worth mentioning is called Ahrefs. It’s a little expensive, around 200 a month, but it is probably the most used SEO tool right now in the industry. You can see anyone’s website rankings, and also, the other part that’s interesting, you can look at the website authority.

[00:19:59] Chris Brencans: We’re talking about the backlinks. It’s a huge factor. If your website doesn’t have enough authority, no matter how great your article is, you will not rank, just because you’re lacking that Third party recognition, like you’re lacking those links from Chicago Daily, uh, newsletter or yes, because that shows that you’re a real attorney, that you have real expertise, that you’re recognized on the web.

[00:20:26] Chris Brencans: And those, those backlinks play a huge factor for your website to perform

[00:20:30] Steve Fretzin: well. So let me ask you this, Chris, because I think we were diving into some really great stuff. The other piece of it that I think is missing for most lawyers, and this is in particular for solo and small firm lawyers, is that they, they, they’re doing the SEO or they’re not, they have rankings, they’re not, they’re on Google or they’re not, but regardless, they may have traffic coming to their website.

[00:20:52] Steve Fretzin: And they don’t really know a what the traffic is, they don’t know what, who’s clicking what and where, and they’re not leveraging that for any kind of real follow ups where maybe they could be. Talk to that, because I think half of it is getting, like getting people to the party, and then, you know, what happens after, you know, what happens after then, you know, the relationship bonded, for example.

[00:21:16] Steve Fretzin: Can you talk to the website conversion side?

[00:21:19] Chris Brencans: Absolutely. Those are conversations that literally are happening every day. We just had a conversation with one of my colleagues. We’re generating leads, but client doesn’t really see what where these leads are going. So that comes to your lead intake. Do you have an actual system in place?

[00:21:36] Chris Brencans: I know some attorneys that love taking calls themselves and they considered them closers. And I think that’s something you can actually help attorneys as well, building out a little bit, their sales side of things, because just getting a lead doesn’t mean it’s going to be a converted lead. There’s a followup.

[00:21:54] Chris Brencans: There’s steps that has to be taken. And then the other aspect is the technology you’re using to process these Is it some lead intake CRM? Uh, you can build a couple of lead flows in there to me personally, it’s crucial to have some technology. That’s going to show you return on your leads. Where did these leads come from?

[00:22:16] Chris Brencans: And are you closing them? I don’t even care where they’re coming from because at the end of the day, you can say I spent 5, 000 in marketing and I Close 20, 000 in the cases, or I have them pending, you know, in settlements, if it’s personal injury law firm, it gets crucial to have a CRM in place that’s going to help you with this process.

[00:22:37] Chris Brencans: And then figuring out what are the steps, how you pose these clients. Yeah,

[00:22:41] Steve Fretzin: the other piece of it is I think there are a lot of lawyers who are not really looking at the analytics. And as I say that there’s lawyers listening. What the heck does that even mean? Web analytics. And that’s maybe you can define that and then talk to why it’s important for lawyers to know what their web analytics are.

[00:23:00] Chris Brencans: Well, that’s benchmarking. You know, you can’t you can’t improve what you don’t measure. And step one in any marketing or any activity is identifying your benchmarks. In this case, benchmarks would be website traffic leads and cases. So those 3 elements. Um, if you start doing SEO, then I would say also versus looking at the rankings, are your positions improving?

[00:23:27] Chris Brencans: Let’s say for keywords like, the same one we were joking around with, Philadelphia family lawyer, what position are you ranked right now? If you’re positioned 20, that means you’re on page 2. What position are you ranked in Google Maps? Because Google Maps is a huge factor right now in local search engine optimization because If you look at the results and Google just keeps pushing down the results.

[00:23:51] Chris Brencans: So first you see the ads, then you see the map results, and then there’s organics. So you need to figure out what positions you are. If you are focusing on SEO, if it’s strictly maybe just in general, like you said, figuring out what are the metrics, I would say first checking your website traffic. We actually built a tool ourselves called track right.

[00:24:12] Chris Brencans: It’s a very simple setup, and it’s a good starting point for someone just to see where’s their website traffic, how many conversions they’re getting and conversions, meaning how many forms submissions you have live chats. If you have live chat and calls, very important to track your calls. I know some attorneys feel a little iffy about that, but.

[00:24:31] Chris Brencans: If you’re going to start marketing, you want to see the quality of these calls. And then the question is, who is taking these calls? You know, 1 is just seeing how many calls you get. And probably 70% is going to be some marketers and, you know, other type of, uh, calls that are not really clients, but. That percent of clients actually.

[00:24:52] Chris Brencans: Are calling you, you want to make sure that that intake process is flawless and they’re being converted at highest possible effort. Yeah,

[00:25:00] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I was talking to a couple of attorneys earlier this week and they’re taking all their intake calls and they’re overwhelmed with intake calls, which is fantastic.

[00:25:09] Steve Fretzin: I mean, that’s a problem that would love to have a problem, but I was asking deeper questions as I tend to do, and I found that. They really were, they were the ones that were like doing the initial baseline qualification. So a lot of the calls that were coming in were highly unqualified and probably could have been handled by an intake person or two.

[00:25:29] Steve Fretzin: They just haven’t either been trained or because they’ve got a full staff. But I think that I was finding like they’re spending like three days a week doing intake calls when they could be spending more time. Lawyering and focusing on business development and stuff like that. So I, you know, there’s just so much you can learn from the data and that you can learn from having a conversation with an expert.

[00:25:50] Steve Fretzin: And I’ve got one more question for you. Um, because I want to understand there are attorneys right now that are so focused on SEO and so focused on pay per click and there’s a. Issue coming up coming down the pike and that is me. I and I mean, I’ve, you know, you and I just talked briefly, you know, when we did our first effort at recording and, you know, we talk about things like bang and we talk about chat, GBT and stuff like that, where it really could change how lawyers who have been counting on SEO and pay per click for years may have to alter and start to adapt and You know, I think the early adopters, like anything are going to do better than the ones that hang on longer.

[00:26:32] Steve Fretzin: What are your, what’s kind of your take on where things are going in legal marketing as it relates to with AI?

[00:26:40] Chris Brencans: So with AI, Google is starting to test something called search generative experience. Which is similar to what being already rolled out actively, but Google’s not making a step yet, making it alive.

[00:26:53] Chris Brencans: It’s only available in labs at this point. Essentially what it does it, I’m sure everyone has noticed in Google results, the featured snippets where the result gets a little more expanded. Google keeps you within the Google’s experience. It doesn’t send you to another website. So with the search generative experience, Google is basically generating the results in the search engine result.

[00:27:19] Chris Brencans: So this featured snippet now becomes like a super snippet. There’s this overwhelming amount of information that’s being presented. One example is map results might actually see a little benefit. Instead of three results, there’s, they’re showing 10 results, and then the map is still under. So there’s still a lot of testing going on.

[00:27:39] Chris Brencans: So we can’t really conclude what exactly the, that’s going to mean for attorney SEO or attorney PPC. Uh, for PPC side, I mean, one is sure that ads not going to go anywhere. If anything, there’s going to be more opportunities. Uh, one aspect that’s happening. And I just spoke to Bo Royale on my podcast and he’s advertisers.

[00:28:01] Chris Brencans: It does a lot of PPC for attorneys. And one thing he said is Google’s trying to take the control away from the advertisers. They want to control your budgets and they want to spend it themselves, which again, you know, Google wants to control what is happening to control those budgets. Now, similar like LSA ads, you can’t really control much for local service ads.

[00:28:23] Chris Brencans: And so far in HGE experience, I haven’t seen LSA ads integrated in that experience. Again, it’s still early experiments and it’s not live, but there’s definitely going to be changes that That’s coming as far as sg experience for ppc ads, but google always will take the money. So I think the ad experience still going to be there.

[00:28:43] Chris Brencans: I

[00:28:43] Steve Fretzin: mean, I guess I guess my big concern though, is let’s say that someone is spending, you know, millions and millions of dollars on pay per click and they want to be ranked at the top and all these different categories and all these different cities, et cetera, and ultimately being or or google whatever come up with.

[00:29:00] Steve Fretzin: The answer, it’s not about giving you pages and pages of search results. They just say, Hey, the best personal injury attorney in San Francisco for you is, and here’s why, because it’s that kind of injury. It’s that kind of situation. And now that’s the attorney that’s going to get the call. Not necessarily the 10 or 20 that, that have been paying for, you know, to

[00:29:20] Chris Brencans: be found.

[00:29:22] Chris Brencans: But perhaps that becomes a paid experience to come up in that wanna result. Yeah. I highly doubt Google will miss out on revenue because of

[00:29:30] Steve Fretzin: these changes. , they, they, they tend to like revenue, is that what you’re saying? Yes,

[00:29:34] Chris Brencans: they do. And their top revenue is still search ads. So it’s not,

[00:29:40] Steve Fretzin: they’re not gonna put, they’re not gonna put themselves outta business through ai.

[00:29:42] Steve Fretzin: They’re gonna figure out a way to make sure it’s, it’s monetized properly.

[00:29:46] Chris Brencans: Yeah, but I am curious what’s going to happen to LSA. That could be an, it’s still always been somewhat a black box, even to this day, uh, where Google controls. The mechanisms, how those ads are being shown, but same time in the, in the current test, I haven’t seen local service ads integrated, but from what they’ve been doing in e commerce side, the ads become part of the super snippet experience.

[00:30:13] Chris Brencans: So it might even become harder to distinguish between organic result and ads. So there’s definitely going to be some interesting changes happening. But I did want to mention another thing from search engine optimization perspective, coming back to our initial Our initial conversation of building personal brand.

[00:30:33] Chris Brencans: There’s something Google was rolling out as called perspectives. So it’s like a tab, like you have photos and videos that there’s going to be perspective staff. So let’s say someone’s looking for a personal injury lawyer and they want to get perspective on some kind of question they have, they will find people that are posting social media videos, talking about those topics.

[00:30:54] Chris Brencans: And Google is going to serve people with the biggest following, people with biggest. Engagement, so now what google is trying to do is they want to index entire world’s information in the search results, because that’s what it should be. They don’t want people to go to tick tock to look for certain things or randomly find them on tick tock.

[00:31:12] Chris Brencans: So they want to bring. They want to bring them into their search results and that’s what’s happening now with the perspectives. So back to our topic of building your personal brand, there’s, you know, 10 plus aspects where you can, 10 plus media channels where you can appear. So it’s, it’s very, very important to start putting yourself out there, especially with all the changes coming, because if you’re, if you’re not making your little Uh, progress within, within those areas, you’re not building your personal brand.

[00:31:47] Chris Brencans: Someone else still is, and it’s going to be even harder to catch up, uh, later down the road. Well,

[00:31:51] Steve Fretzin: I mean, all of this should be, you know, highly intriguing to attorneys and for some that are doing like the bare minimum to nothing, um, they’re okay now. Today’s okay. Tomorrow, maybe not so much. Day after that, even less so.

[00:32:06] Steve Fretzin: You know, you’re either, you’re either in the game or you’re not. And, you know, I’d love to say to lawyers, Hey, just keep being a great lawyer and that’s all it takes. And I just, that’s just not the reality of the current environment. So. Really great stuff chris hey let’s move to um our new segment called game changing podcasts and i know you’ve got one that you’re fond of and that i’m also fond of and especially of the two guys that are on it but you want to talk about uh the lunch hour

[00:32:30] Chris Brencans: yes the legal uh lunch hour it’s definitely one of cutting edge legal marketing podcasts.

[00:32:38] Chris Brencans: I think from all perspectives, the quality, the host, both hosts are agency owners. I think they’re also great friends. There’s some good humor. And there one at one segment itself is just on news itself. So I can never say it’s not

[00:32:55] Steve Fretzin: like a lock us. I’m an expert.

[00:32:56] Chris Brencans: Yeah. Okay. So I guess and, uh, and a mockingbird, uh, agency, uh, hundreds, hundreds home.

[00:33:04] Chris Brencans: So they always touch on very interesting topics that are. And I had of its time almost so the attorneys and everyone listening can always get some latest information. Uh, not too long time ago. They were just talking about Google reviews. Pam, you and I, we didn’t get to talk too much about a Google reviews, but that’s important factor.

[00:33:24] Chris Brencans: So that’s been my go to, uh, podcasts to listen to, you know, as far as legal marketing use, uh. Honestly, I haven’t come across too many other ones that would talk specifically legal marketing. And for that reason, I actually started my own podcast as well called law firms on the map. And, uh, I’ve taken an angle where I interview other legal marketing professionals, yep, SEOs, PPC managers.

[00:33:49] Chris Brencans: And really I want to give attorneys the experience of thinking about like, if I’m hiring a marketing director or agency, what are the conversations I’m

[00:33:58] Steve Fretzin: going to have? And let’s, and let’s be sure to talk offline, Chris, because I’ve got a dozen that I can send to you to help you boost the show and, and just make sure you’ve got the top talent because I’ve had them on.

[00:34:09] Steve Fretzin: He, Sokolakis, Conrad, Sam, both been on the show. They’ve both been marketing Mavericks for my Be That Lawyer Live. So, yeah. That’d be amazing. We’ll definitely do that. And hey, real quick, I just want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, we’ve got Overture. law, uh, helping you make money. And guess what?

[00:34:25] Steve Fretzin: You don’t even have to do the work. Uh, you can just send it out to other attorneys. And, uh, and get paid and also, you know, get more business yourself. So it’s a win win situation. Check out Overture. And then of course, Muddy Penny, who’s just rocking it. Um, you, you know, you’re tired of paying for a full time receptionist or you got the stupid, um, you know, uh, phone tree.

[00:34:45] Steve Fretzin: That’s awful. Don’t do it. Look to Muddy Penny. And of course, we’ve got Get Visible and they’re just rock stars in the marketing space for lawyers. If you check out fretson. com, you’ll see some of the awesome work they did on my website. So check out our sponsors. They’re terrific. If people wanna get in touch with you, crystal, to learn more about on the map and, and maybe talk with you about their seo o, what are the best ways for them to reach you?

[00:35:06] Steve Fretzin: I’m

[00:35:07] Chris Brencans: pretty active on LinkedIn. You can just find me by Christoph Brankin or Chris Brankin and, uh, you can always just shoot me a note on our website on the Uh, just fill out the form and, uh, reference the podcast. I’ll, I think so far I’m only one from your, uh, from our company that’s been there.

[00:35:24] Chris Brencans: It does. Yeah.

[00:35:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And, and I think a hell of an interview, man. I mean, you shared a lot of great advice, some very tactical things, some very actionable things, which I’m a huge fan of, and I think demonstrated your knowledge of SEO, you know, at the highest level. So I just appreciate you sharing that on my show and being a great resource for the lawyers that enjoy my show.

[00:35:45] Steve Fretzin: So, uh, so thanks again, man. I appreciate it.

[00:35:47] Chris Brencans: Oh, Steve. Thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation. And, uh, yeah, let’s see what the SGE brings us.

[00:35:54] Steve Fretzin: There we go. There we go. We’ll get those. We’re going to get those, uh, get those, uh, cross over snippets. Super snippets. Yes. Yes. You always create some great assets and videos.

[00:36:04] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, Hey, listen, thank you everybody for spending some time with Chris and I today. Again, if you’re a fan of the show, please don’t be shy about telling others about it. Give us a. You know, a five star review, a thumbs up, whatever it is that you’ve got in front of you. And, um, and also check out frets and.

[00:36:18] Steve Fretzin: com. I’ve got, you know, years and years of blog posts and articles that I’ve written that I think you could really get a lot out of. And I try to take my own personal experiences and, and, and some fun analogies and create some good content there. And again, all of this is, is for one purpose, and that is to help you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

[00:36:38] Steve Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. And we will talk again real soon.

[00:36:45] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about…

[00:37:06] Narrator: Check out today’s show

[00:37:08] Chris Brencans: notes.