Christina Martini: Recognizing Opportunities and Nurturing Authentic Networking Relationships

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Christina Martini discuss:

  • How Tina pivoted from engineering to legal.
  • Selling big law by increasing the stickiness factor through cross-selling.
  • Minding your assets in networking and cross-marketing.
  • Building your book of business authentically.

Key Takeaways:

  • The practice of law is not that different from having and nurturing the relationships in your life. Everything is all about relationships which are dynamic and require proactivity.
  • Good business development, whether in a solo firm or in big law, requires a multi-pronged approach. Leverage existing clients, leverage your network, and talk to your peers. The right work for you is out there, but you’ve got to ask for it.
  • Be prepared and have dynamic conversations with your potential clients. It will help build and nourish the relationship, but it will also create opportunities.
  • As a woman, embrace who you are, embrace your femininity and who you want to be in the world when you go to market. Be authentic in your relationship building and in building your book.

“The rubber really meets the road when you cross-sell your clients into areas that are completely unrelated to yours. That’s how you institutionalize clients. That’s how you increase the stickiness factor.” —  Christina Martini

Find out more about the 10 Easy-to-Execute Hacks to Unlock Your Full Potential at: fretzin.com/events

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Episode References: 

About Christina Martini: Christina L. Martini is a partner with McDermott Will & Emery and serves as the Global Head of the Firm’s Trademark Prosecution & Controversy Practice. Tina focuses her practice on domestic and international trademark and copyright law, as well as domain name, Internet, advertising, unfair competition and entertainment law. She has extensive experience in counseling, prosecution, enforcement, due diligence and licensing matters, and in assisting clients in protecting their intellectual property rights through litigation and other means. Tina has also served as an expert witness regarding issues on trademark, unfair competition and trade dress law, as well as USPTO practice. Described as a “juggernaut in the trademark market,” Tina is a trusted advisor with a proven track record of successful outcomes for clients.

For many years, Tina has also been selected as one of America’s leading intellectual property lawyers by Chambers & Partners, which has also given MWE’s Chicago Trademark Group a Band 1 ranking. Tina has also been rated AV Preeminent by Martindale-Hubbell and designated an Illinois Super Lawyer.

Tina is the host of “Paradigm Shift with Christina Martini” and is co-host of WGN Radio’s popular show “Legal Face-Off.” Since 2010, Chicago Lawyer has featured her legal column, “Inside Out.”

Connect with Christina Martini:

Website: mwe.com

Email: [email protected]

Show: paradigmshiftshow.com

Show: wgnradio.com/wgn-plus/legal-face-off

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/christinamartini

X: twitter.com/TinaMartini10 & twitter.com/McDermottLaw

Facebook: facebook.com/McDermottWillandEmery

Instagram: instagram.com/christina_louise_martiniinstagram.com/mcdermott_law

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

X: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, if you’re looking to level up as a lawyer, you want to join me and my friend Rachel Steininger, who’s been on the show a couple times. For 10 easy to execute hacks to unlock your full potential, you can sign up on my website fretzin. com slash events and hope to see you there and enjoy the show.

[00:00:20] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve fretzin.

[00:00:42] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to another fun, interesting, and yes, exciting episode of Be That Lawyer. I’m Steve Fredson. Welcome. Welcome. Listen, we have a phenomenal show. Not only is it phenomenal, but it is our 400th episode. I am so excited and thrilled. That some of you have been staying with me since the beginning about four years ago.

[00:01:02] Steve Fretzin: Some of you were pretty new either way. We’re definitely celebrating. And I was very careful and specific with who I wanted on my show for my 400th. And that is my friend, Christina Martini. How you doing, Christina? 

[00:01:13] Christina Martini: I’m good, Steve. Congratulations on 400. I’m so excited for you. 

[00:01:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s really great.

[00:01:19] Steve Fretzin: And I’m excited as well. We are going to jump in and get really going quickly here with our quote of the show. Nothing happens until something moves. And that’s the famous Albert Einstein. Talk to us a little bit about that and we’ll get this show off on the right foot. 

[00:01:34] Christina Martini: Well, I find it to be an incredibly inspiring quote.

[00:01:37] Christina Martini: You know, it really crossed my path, Steve, probably about 20 years ago. And I think that it really, especially for your audience, just the recognition that there is a certain amount of serendipity and things falling in one’s lap during the course of their lives, whether it’s professional or personal, but so much of success.

[00:01:55] Christina Martini: And fulfillment in life is about making things happen. And if you engage in something like analysis paralysis, or just wait for things to cross your path, you’re just not as likely to get the fulfillment and success that you want out of life. And so that quote reminds me in a very short form, bite sized form, what matters and how to get to whatever type of life you’d like.

[00:02:19] Steve Fretzin: It’s like every day that’s my life, meaning how do I get lawyers who don’t want to do business development, see themselves as salespeople are stressed out and frustrated about the idea that they have to build a book of business and do client development and they just won’t do it. And I’m like, look, if you’re not going to do it, I can’t do it for you.

[00:02:38] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, see you later. I mean, I can only be as good as the player, right. As a coach. So that’s, that’s sort of it. But. We have to take action. That’s at the end of the day, what makes makes anything work or happen, whether it’s finding your perfect mate, whether it’s, you know, changing jobs, building a book.

[00:02:54] Steve Fretzin: I mean, what else can we do? 

[00:02:56] Christina Martini: I completely agree with you. You know, I’d say the practice of law, especially in a law firm where you’re expected to generate business is really not all that different from the relation having relationships and nurturing relationships in your life because it’s all about relationships.

[00:03:10] Christina Martini: And relationships are not static, they’re dynamic. And so you have to continue to evolve and keep engaging and be proactive in those relationships rather than being reactive and do the best you can to really put yourself in the shoes of the people who are in your network, who are your existing clients, who may be your future clients, try to see the world from where they’re coming from and try to be there for them and develop a relationship based on giving.

[00:03:38] Christina Martini: And not taking especially when you’re starting a relationship be willing to be Generous and to really be a friend before you ask for anything 

[00:03:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, we have a lot more of that coming your way everybody christina martina You are the partner, a partner mcdermott will and emery global head of trademark prosecution and controversy practice You have an amazing show on shoot, what’s it called?

[00:04:04] Steve Fretzin: That legal face off? Yeah, it’s WGN. WGN, which is a Chicago based radio station. You’ve got your legal column, Inside Out, and you and I have known each other a long time. How long have we known each other? 15 years? I would say at least 15 

[00:04:16] Christina Martini: years. I mean, you and I met, we were introduced by a mutual friend who thought we would get along well.

[00:04:21] Christina Martini: And yeah. So the world, you know, very similarly, and you and I have evolved a lot and have done some really exciting things and have been through a lot of changes professionally and personally, but we’ve always stayed in touch and I really value our relationship. 

[00:04:34] Steve Fretzin: Well, let’s take it a step further. I was on your podcast about four or five years ago and asked you You know, how do you do a podcast?

[00:04:42] Steve Fretzin: What’s in it for what is this and how does it work? And you’re like I don’t do any of this. I give it all over to turnkey podcast Well, I connected with doug sandler shout out to turnkey podcast and the rest is history I’ve been podcasting hardcore now 400 episodes since you know, four years ago since we did yours and I mean One of the best things i’ve ever done in my career was starting this podcast I have the most fun and get to meet the most interesting people and interview you Again, you know again after all these years, so Really really great stuff.

[00:05:12] Steve Fretzin: So let’s go back to the beginning of your story whether that’s you know Your childhood whether that’s how you got into law big law. Let’s let’s get the the tina martini. Two minute drill 

[00:05:23] Christina Martini: sure So I grew up in the northern suburbs of chicago and highland park. I’m one of four kids. I have three brothers We all went to enter engineering school and you know, we’re all a very close family I lost my mom when I was in high school as I was getting ready to graduate.

[00:05:39] Christina Martini: I lost her as a senior in high school And that was a pretty important and pivotal inflection point for me, because I think there was a certain level of independence and growing up that I did in that moment. And so it made some of the decisions I made both both professionally as well as personally going forward easier because it was always against the backdrop of going through.

[00:06:00] Christina Martini: Such a catastrophic life event, but I went to engineering school as my brothers did loved. It started my masters and then got exposed to the law through a really interesting safety engineering class. And I mentioned that because I was set to be an engineer and then perhaps get an MBA. And then this woman got me thinking about law.

[00:06:21] Christina Martini: And so fast forward, I took the LSAT on a dare, did well enough to get into Northwestern law and decided, you know what, kind of like the blues brothers. It’s a sign from God. I better go to law school and law school and figured it out and then started my career in what is now called affectionately big law.

[00:06:41] Christina Martini: It was a large law firm based in Chicago. Became a much bigger law firm over the course of the time. I was there I was there for 25 years and then joined mcdermott in the summer of 2018 So it’s almost been six years that i’ve been at mcdermott. 

[00:06:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah, really really great It’s it’s you know, we have very similar backgrounds.

[00:06:58] Steve Fretzin: And i’m not only we know, you know I went to island park too, but also my mother had a had a very severe stroke when I was 17 18 And was a didn’t die, but she was a paraplegic and we had to take care of her for 13 years so The idea of independence and the idea of tragedy happening at an early age.

[00:07:16] Steve Fretzin: We, we, I don’t think we ever knew that about each other or I didn’t recall that about each other, but that’s wow. I mean, really, really makes things, puts things in a perspective when all your friends are out doing whatever. And you’re like, you know, dealing with, with heavy stuff. But, but I think what it does is it makes us, you know, it gets, gets the skin a little thicker and it gives us a little more backbone because, you know, reality hits at a young age and, and we understand, you know, how serious life can be.

[00:07:43] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, my, my whole thing is you gotta, you got one shot at this thing, so let’s really make it everyday count. So talk to me a little bit about. Selling big law. I mean people, there are a lot of big, big law lawyers out there, but selling big law is different than selling mid market or solo type business.

[00:08:00] Steve Fretzin: What’s talk a little bit about that environment and what it’s like to sell in big law. 

[00:08:06] Christina Martini: So selling in big law, I’d say is just, you know, I think a lot of folks have different impressions of what big law is. I mean, to me, it’s really After almost 30 years in big law, what it means to me is looking at general practice firms that are of a particular size and a certain, there’s usually a certain cachet to the brand.

[00:08:27] Christina Martini: You know, they’re known for, especially young lawyers as a good way to be trained up to learn how to be a lawyer. Blue chip clients, maybe not some, not blue chip clients too, but it’s A level of sophistication of the practice. So there’s certain practice areas that a lot of big law law firms don’t get into.

[00:08:47] Christina Martini: I also think the ones that tend to be more successful realize that you can’t be everything to everybody. So I’ve noticed that some of the more successful law firms in the big law bucket, so to speak, are the ones that realize what their strengths are. And I think as we continue to see consolidation in big law, That you’ve got a lot of firms that are through either mergers or acquisitions are sort of figuring out what their claim to fame will be because they need to differentiate themselves.

[00:09:18] Christina Martini: And so selling big law as a big law lawyer really entails not just being really great at my own craft and selling my services and my team. For IP related matters, but it’s also really getting to know my partners who are in other practice areas because the rubber really meets the road when you cross sell your clients into areas that are completely unrelated to yours.

[00:09:42] Christina Martini: That’s how you institutionalize clients. That’s how you increase the stickiness factor and that for me is one of the most fun parts of the job is not to just sell myself, but to help. Me like how my partner sell themselves with my clients and being a matchmaker of sorts, but not just stopping when that happens, but staying integrally involved in those other engagements too, to make sure that there’s a good match.

[00:10:08] Christina Martini: So that I learn what is going on at my client outside of my practice area. And I usually do this without billing my time, unless I bring value in my particular. Area of practice and that’s something that clients really appreciate because it’s part of being a relationship partner to these clients. 

[00:10:26] Steve Fretzin: Okay.

[00:10:27] Steve Fretzin: So, and I sort of want to come back to the, to the cross marketing thing, because I know that’s not only one of the challenges that all lawyers have that are at mid market in large firms, but, but how important it is and how, how crucial it can be not, not just for the stickiness of that relationship, but the revenue that can be generated when you’re bringing in million dollar plus matters that you don’t have to actually do.

[00:10:49] Steve Fretzin: You can hand them off and get credit. But talk a little bit about, so, you know, you want to grow your book from, you know, 5 million to 10 million, or you want to, you know, bring in three big clients a year. I mean, how, what’s the strategy, what’s the execution to, to do that when you know, it’s not about bringing in a hundred clients, it’s bringing in a few really sizable clients.

[00:11:08] Christina Martini: Right. And that’s a great question. And I think that there are several ways to get there, right? I mean, first of all, we all have networks, right? We all have people we know, and we all have people we know who know people. So I think it’s a multi pronged approach, which I think sort of evolves over time. So sometimes when you look at it like as a set of levers, some of it is Working existing clients.

[00:11:31] Christina Martini: Some of it is working your partners to introduce you to their clients. Sometimes it’s creating opportunities where you meet completely new people. Sometimes it’s working your existing network to get them to make introductions for you rather than the cold call. When there are underlying relationships, whether it’s a client relationship, a partner relationship, you’re a lot more likely to create revenue or additional revenue than if it is a completely new relationship.

[00:11:59] Christina Martini: I think it’s something like it takes sometimes like 8 to 10 touch points with a completely new client to create revenue on average. And so, you It’s a multi pronged approach, and I think that folks that look to only really focus on one of the areas that I just mentioned, and there’s also thought leadership, speaking at conferences, doing podcasts, et cetera, et cetera, but I don’t think.

[00:12:23] Christina Martini: Being in big law or really any law firm where you’re developing a book, trying to proliferate a book that you can use only one of those methods. I think it’s a combination of things like a portfolio of assets and you need to just mind your assets, so to speak, and sort of figure out, okay, well, I’ve done a lot of this.

[00:12:41] Christina Martini: Now I need to dial that back a little bit or keep it on, you know, sort of like, just, you know, work on it, keep it going, but then realize, okay, I really need to refresh my network and figure out. Strategic ways, knowing that they’re only 24 hours a day, seven days a week, how to do that. 

[00:12:57] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s really, I mean, everything that I was hoping to hear out of you, you said, which is, which is, there’s so many different ways to skin the cat, but at the end of the day, it goes back to what you said at the very beginning.

[00:13:06] Steve Fretzin: It’s about relationships, leveraging your network, you know, and making sure that you’re, you know, staying active and out in front of people. Is it more challenging? I mean, I guess, as you were coming up or someone that’s coming up now, that’s, let’s say a senior associate or junior partner. And Just trying to get to their first million, couple million.

[00:13:24] Steve Fretzin: Is it more challenging at Big Law to do that than it is at the mid market level because of the conflicts and the size of the, of the clients that you’re dealing with and, and the, the price points and things like that? 

[00:13:36] Christina Martini: You know, that’s a great question. I’d say based on my experience with my prior firm, which was a lot bigger, knock wood, I’ve had a lot fewer issues with conflicts.

[00:13:46] Christina Martini: I think. A lot of it is trying to figure out, first of all, how to be a great lawyer. Second of all, developing relationships with the people with whom you’re working, both at the firm, as well as clients, knowing that sometimes people who are essentially your peer level at a client end up going and leaving and going to other opportunities, usually in house, but not always, but who could end up calling you.

[00:14:10] Christina Martini: And creating a new relationship with you. I’d say that’s how I started creating my book as an associate. And I also had an extremely generous couple of mentors who ended up really not feeling threatened by having me come in, help them run the relationships. And then even as a senior associate, I was running some pretty significant client relationships and learning a lot of skills and making a lot of connections.

[00:14:35] Christina Martini: I’d say it’s also sort of figuring out pretty quickly where Where your niche is going to be. How do you differentiate yourself? Because if you differentiate yourself in a way that makes you stand apart from the folks that you work with, it just adds a multidimensionality to the team that you work on, but also you will be able to command the rates.

[00:14:55] Christina Martini: You will be sought after by clients. Understand that there are certain things that everybody’s trying to do. And, you know, while there are conversations about rates, et cetera, you have to think about how best to sell yourself. And that could shift from client to client opportunity to opportunity. It depends on what the client’s looking for, who else is in, is competing for their business and.

[00:15:21] Christina Martini: What is the most important thing to the client? Because if they want someone who has been like to Warren back a million times and need someone who’s incredibly seasoned, they may be willing to pay a significantly higher rate, knowing there’s a lot more efficiency with that person, as well as a perspective of I’ve watched this movie before, and this is what I think you need to do rather than someone at a lower rate.

[00:15:44] Christina Martini: Who may not have seen it before and it’s going to take a longer time to get to the finish line 

[00:15:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I think that’s what but many people don’t understand is that you get what you pay for, right? So you may deal with a higher level lawyer consultant, etc. That’s charging a premium But again, you know, there’s a reason they’re commanding that number because this is you know This is big, you know big law and this is big, you know There’s big companies that have a lot riding on you know, getting answers Quickly and that are going that are going to help save the company in some instances So Really, really important stuff.

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[00:18:03] Steve Fretzin: What about as a woman building a law practice, if you go back a number of years and you go to, you know, thinking about where you are now in 30 years in, which is incredible to say, I’ve spoken at a lot of, a lot of women’s groups.

[00:18:20] Steve Fretzin: I’ve written articles on this and I’m feeling a dramatic shift in not only women’s presence in law, but their, their ability and interest in building books of business. Can you, can you speak to that for a moment? 

[00:18:32] Christina Martini: Sure. I, you know, it’s interesting. I think when I look back on my career, I never really thought even when I was a more junior attorney that I would, I wouldn’t have my own book of business.

[00:18:44] Christina Martini: I always thought that I would have clients that I would build on. I would help my partners continue to proliferate their practices that it was going to be like a portfolio of assets. And I think that there are a lot of women who see and sort of focus on. Being at a disadvantage being a woman and say, well, I don’t, you know, go to the country club.

[00:19:05] Christina Martini: I don’t play golf. I don’t do this. I don’t, you know, go to sports events, whatever, but I think that, you know, and part of this may be that I grew up with brothers and I had was an engineering school and was around a lot of men, but I think that there’s a way and I think it’s important for women to embrace who they are.

[00:19:23] Christina Martini: What their interests are and their femininity and who and who they want to be in the world and used and come from a place of authenticity when it comes to deciding how best to go to market because that’s the best way to create relationships. And again, you know, sort of coming back to what we were saying earlier.

[00:19:42] Christina Martini: You know, it’s all about relationships, the kind of relationships you want to have looking at how you develop relationships because personal relationship development is not all that different from client relationships. And frankly, I look at the clients that I work with, and there are quite a few of them that I consider to be good friends too.

[00:20:01] Christina Martini: And my relationship with them doesn’t end with the last, you know, 10th of an hour that I put on a time sheet. Frankly, it usually goes well beyond that because I care about them as people. And I think that that’s the critical thing. You need to care about people as people and not just as clients. And I think if you come from that place of caring and empathy and authenticity, That you will be able to proliferate a practice.

[00:20:26] Christina Martini: Obviously, you’ve got to be systematic and it’s hard work But you have to sort of come from that place from the outset in my opinion 

[00:20:33] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and is there some issue that and I know i’ve heard this in the past and i’m not looking to You know start a fight with anybody but it’s like that and this happens to men too that they they feel like they’re friends with their clients and they’re or they’re friends with With people they know in, in power positions, GC roles and such, and they’re in, and I do the, they are quotes, the friend zone, where like, we’re friends, we have dinners, we go out as couples, and you don’t want to bring up the fact that you’re, you could crush it for them as a lawyer, and it’s like, how do you get through that and pass that, because that business, you know, really should be yours.

[00:21:10] Christina Martini: Great question, and I think it’s something that we all struggle with, at least in some shape or form. And one thing I’ve realized is that sometimes you just don’t get things without asking, or at least broaching the topic and having a very, I would say, authentic conversation. Again, we come back to this authenticity theme.

[00:21:30] Christina Martini: You know, when you’re having dinner with someone or you’re out with someone talking to someone on the phone and they are like a potentially great business prospect, but you’re not currently getting work from them in my mind. I think there’s often an opportunity when you’re just talking about what you’re doing in your job and the challenges and the struggles that you deal with.

[00:21:49] Christina Martini: You know, just talking to folks about how, like, if you’re in big law, a big thing that you’re doing, especially if you’re a partner, is you’ve you are looked at to generate business and just just like they talk about how, you know, they were in a board meeting with their C suite and. Having a deal with the crisis du jour, you can say, well, you know, this is what my week was like.

[00:22:10] Christina Martini: Oh, I landed a great case or landed a new client and broach the topic that way. And I think at that point, it’s very easy to say, I would love to find an opportunity for us to work together or for me to help you and your business and would love to find ways to do that. 

[00:22:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So I think you’re, you’re broaching the subject through a normal conversation about business, what’s going on in, in, in their world, what’s going on in your world.

[00:22:34] Steve Fretzin: I also would add, you know, and this is, I’m sure right in line with what you’re saying, curiosity. I think you mentioned that earlier that we can ask a lot of questions to our friends and uncover gaps of, Where their current law firm isn’t hitting the mark where they maybe miss something that you would pick up.

[00:22:51] Steve Fretzin: Maybe you’re then able to advise and say, you know what, I get what you’re hearing there. But did they ask you about this? Did they ask you about that? Well, no, they did it. And it’s opening up the door a crack that could be then pushed open a foot. If, if you’re just curious and interested and, and you’re not selling anything really at that point, you’re just trying to understand and maybe try to see where, where, where there might be some way to break up the conversation and, and jump in with some thoughts.

[00:23:16] Christina Martini: I agree. And in that respect, I think it’s very helpful to keep abreast of what’s going on at the company. And, and, and exactly that, you know, that’s right to ask folks what’s keeping them up at night and what has been going really well looking at the press in advance of meeting, like, if you’re going to have a conversation where you can broach this and actually take the conversation to its conclusion.

[00:23:43] Christina Martini: You want to walk in prepared, and that’s like another thing I’d like to mention. Another lesson learned and reaffirmed and validated again and again is being prepared, especially when you’re walking into a situation where you could have an opportunity to have a, you know, a really important conversation and again and sort of keeping with creating your own opportunities.

[00:24:04] Christina Martini: You end up letting potential opportunities go by if you don’t even recognize that they’re an opportunity to start with. And if you have the ability to have lunch, coffee, whatever, with somebody who’s a decision maker and a potentially great client you let that opportunity go by if you’re not able to sort of have a, a dynamic conversation with them and knowledgeable conversation about what’s going on with them.

[00:24:29] Steve Fretzin: And also maybe what’s going on in the law. I mean, there’s a lot going on. Like I was just we all got our tax bills here in the North shore and I’ve got a, a lawyer client friend who, who handles that tax rate. I was like, Hey man, are you getting active with all these Deerfield dads that are complaining about their tax bills?

[00:24:46] Steve Fretzin: You’re like, Oh yeah, I’ve already picked up X, Y, Z. And it’s like, just how do we stay ahead in these conversations so that, you know, we’re, we’re, you know demonstrating maybe some knowledge beyond what they, you know, have or, or to, to collaborate with them in some way or make the referrals to, you know, them, things like that.

[00:25:01] Steve Fretzin: I also like the idea of, of, of asking, you know, what, what can I help you with? What do you need? And in some cases, why, you know, we just lost an, an assistant GC and you, you know, someone that would fit that role really well. And so you’re kind of like building value. I guess that comes back to what you said earlier about giving, but giving doesn’t, you know, comes in many forms.

[00:25:19] Christina Martini: Right. Absolutely. Sometimes what a client or potential client who is a friend needs is a sounding board. Sometimes it’s about personal stuff, but it’s just putting your practical hat on and just, you know, really listening. That’s another thing is that sometimes folks like to talk a lot more than they want to listen and it’s so important to really listen critically.

[00:25:43] Christina Martini: To not just what’s being said, but sort of the body language tied to it, the voice inflection, stuff like that, because. You can hear the message behind the message and really get to the bottom of, of what is on the minds of the folks that you’re talking about and how you can best be indispensable to them.

[00:26:04] Steve Fretzin: Well, I have my usual page of notes of all the wonderful things that you said, Tina, and I hope everybody’s taking notice. And again, if whether you’re interested in, in networking with big law lawyers, whether you’re interested in getting into the big law, you’re in big law. These are all great. Great tips.

[00:26:19] Steve Fretzin: I mean, you don’t have to even be in the log to appreciate what you’re saying. Tina, the, the wrap up of the show is really looking at the game changing book. Now, this is one that I hadn’t heard of, but I think it’s, we’re all coming full circle with everything we’re talking about today. It’s called strategy and the fat smoker.

[00:26:35] Steve Fretzin: Now I’ve been smoking meats now for the last year. So I immediately went to, that sounds delicious. But I guess that’s not what this book is about. 

[00:26:43] Christina Martini: Yeah, no. So, I mean, I actually, when I love a book, I revisit it sometimes a number of years later, and I mentioned emotional intelligence to you as well by Daniel Goldman, but what I love about this is David Meister is.

[00:26:56] Christina Martini: He was Harvard business school. I don’t know if he’s retired, but I read this book a number of years ago. And what I love about it is it, it talks about how figuring out what the right thing to do is usually not that difficult. Like law firms and lawyers know that client service is important. Great knowledge and analysis is important, but sometimes it’s the execution.

[00:27:21] Christina Martini: That really can end up being being tough, especially if difficult decisions need to be made to really sort of put in front and center those important basic principles of business. So yes, client service. Everybody agrees important, but sometimes implementing those sorts of things. It isn’t easy to get to that finish line, which is really what the whole title of the book is about.

[00:27:45] Christina Martini: Is sort of like a metaphor for what the, the, the book discusses in terms of giving tips to how do you make tough decisions to get to the, you know, ultimate finish line that you’re looking to get to. 

[00:27:58] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I, and I’ll, I’ll just get down to the root of it too. I mean, I talk about. Sometimes that I’m like a fitness instructor and lawyers are like obese people eating Twinkies in a hose and I’m saying, Hey, put those down, let’s do some pushups and they’re like, no, and they run the other way very slowly, by the way, if they’re obese and carrying that, that kind of, that kind of food.

[00:28:17] Steve Fretzin: But that’s how it is with business development. I mean, the fact that we even use the word sales on this show, you know, scared half the people out of the room you know, it, it, it’s something client development, sales, marketing, whatever we want to call it, business development. It’s all about execution and, and the idea that you can take action, like decide to do something and do it, whether you’re losing weight, whether you’re going to start, you know, working out, whether you’re going to start building business, you have.

[00:28:42] Steve Fretzin: And again, if you’re not able to do that on your own, like you mentioned earlier, you got, you had a mentor, multiple mentors, you have friends, you have, there’s a thing that was just came out abouth, ADHD attorneys and they need accountability buddies. Like, how do we get things done? With you know, just on our own it’s very hard So I think that book really aligns with the general theme of nothing happens without change Nothing happens without action back to the beginning of the show really really cool if people want to get in touch with you tina there They want to learn more about you.

[00:29:13] Steve Fretzin: They want to come work for you and inspire you to do that What’s what’s the best way for them to reach you? 

[00:29:17] Christina Martini: They should feel free to email me they can email me through my mcdermott You know email which is c the letter c martini Thank you At mwe. com. They can also reach out to me through LinkedIn.

[00:29:30] Christina Martini: I think LinkedIn is a wonderful tool. It’s something, again, that you have to sort of be strategic, like everything else, be strategic with how you use it and don’t over overplay it, so to speak. But that’s a wonderful way to get in touch with me as well. And check out my podcast with WGN radio. It’s twice a month with my cohost, Rich Lenkoff, it’s legal face off and I will be.

[00:29:53] Christina Martini: Rebooting my paradigm shift podcast, which I’d interviewed you for Steve. right before you made a decision to launch your podcast career four years ago. So congratulations again. 

[00:30:03] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And as we wrap up, of course, want to thank our wonderful sponsors. We’ve got green cardigan marketing, check out my website, frets and.

[00:30:11] Steve Fretzin: com and see the beautiful job they did. We’ve got get staffed up who’s, you know, my my new guy, Chris is crushing it. And all the marketing you’re seeing from, from my company is mainly due to him. And then of course, law Maddox helping me automate. So Tina, you’re going to get an email from me in six months.

[00:30:28] Steve Fretzin: So we don’t stay apart too long. That may be less, maybe a quarter and it’ll, it’ll be, Hey, let’s get back together. Let’s rebroadcast our podcast or whatever it might be. That’s all automations from law Maddox. Things that, that make. Our lives easier to stay in touch with people So I hope we don’t go a long time between now and our next visit but thanks so much for being on the show I mean, you’re just an inspiration to me and to everybody that this can happen This this dream called the the american dream in law is is a reality.

[00:30:57] Christina Martini: Well right back at you steve Thank you so much for the important work you’re doing you’re really touching so many people in a really important way not just To generate business, but to really generate what’s important to them in their lives, because business development is just one facet. I mean, the tools that you teach people and talk about are important for life, not just.

[00:31:16] Christina Martini: Business development. So thank you for all the great work that you’re doing. 

[00:31:20] Steve Fretzin: Thank you. Thank you Now if it only worked on my teenager, I’d my life would be complete but You know, we’ll we’ll say minus one in that category. Okay? But anyway, listen, thank you. Tina Thank you everybody for listening in and again, if you’ve been a long time listener, you’re just just new to the show Thank you so much for all of your support and all your your your well wishes and it’s been my absolute pleasure and this You This podcast is only just beginning.

[00:31:43] Steve Fretzin: I mean, 400 episodes, let’s get to 4, 000. I have no interest in, in slowing down or shutting down. So we’re going to keep helping you to be that lawyer with Brettson. Someone who’s now I forgot the tagline. Go figure. I don’t have a tagline. I’m changing the tagline. You’re going to have to wait for the new one.

[00:32:00] Steve Fretzin: All right. Thanks everybody. Take care. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

[00:32:08] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.