In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chuck Andrews discuss:
- Challenges in making law firms and businesses scalable and saleable
- Strategic and mental preparation for business transitions
- Understanding client needs as a driver for business growth
- Overcoming personal barriers to achieve professional success
Key Takeaways:
- Many lawyers fail to create saleable practices because they don’t view their firms as scalable assets, instead focusing solely on leveraging personal skills.
- Emotional and psychological unpreparedness for life after selling a business often causes transitions to fail, making mental readiness as crucial as financial planning.
- Business owners can significantly improve scalability and growth by conducting client surveys to understand why customers choose their services.
- Identifying and managing personal saboteurs, such as the need to please or overachieve, is essential for breaking patterns that hinder both business and personal progress.
“The biggest challenge an attorney has is recognizing that they can build their practice into a saleable practice.” — Chuck Andrews
Be That Lawyer is now syndicated on Above the Law! Catch all our new episodes and my monthly column there—spread the word and help us grow: https://abovethelaw.com/
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/
Rainmakers Roundtable: https://fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References:
What Happened to You? by Oprah Winfrey and Bruce D. Perry: https://www.amazon.com/What-Happened-You-Understanding-Resilience/dp/1250223180
Wisdom at Work by Chip Conley: https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Work-Making-Modern-Elder/dp/0525572902
Positive Intelligence by Shirzad Chamine: https://www.amazon.com/Positive-Intelligence-Individuals-Achieve-Potential/dp/1608322785
The Fifth Discipline by Peter M. Senge: https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254
About Chuck Andrews: Chuck combines expertise in technology, M&A advisory, and executive coaching, integrating AI-driven solutions into his firm’s services. Clients gain from tools like AI-based Value Drivers, a Positive Intelligence mental health app, and leadership development rooted in Vistage Peer Advisory Boards.
Connect with Chuck Andrews:
Website: https://ceo15.us/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ceo15-cca/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chuckCEO15/ & https://www.facebook.com/CAndrewsCEO
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I wanted to announce that your favorite podcast and mine, Be That Lawyer, is now syndicated on Above the Law. You can find it on their website, all of our new episodes, as well as my monthly column. I appreciate your listening and loyalty. Please don’t keep our show a secret.
Please tell a friend and let’s make sure that Be That Lawyer continues to grow and be the go to podcast for lawyers all over the world. Thanks and enjoy today’s episode.
Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. I hope you’re having a lovely day today. I am sitting in my brand new home [00:01:00] in Fort Sheridan, Illinois, Highwood, Illinois. I’ve got my dog snoring continually next to me. Something’s going on with him, Chuck. I’m not sure what, but he just is snoring away like sawing wood all day.
I have to listen to this.
Chuck Andrews: It’s insane.
Steve Fretzin: It’s a dog. He sleeps just constantly. He’s not barking, which is good, but he’s snoring. And listen, everybody, you know this show. We are here to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And I absolutely love bringing in amazing new guests that will impress you and teach you new things that are going to help you live the best lawyer life.
And today is no different. Chuck is waiting in the wings. Hey, Chuck, welcome to the show.
Chuck Andrews: Thank you. I’ve got a hidden agenda too. I’ve got, my grandfather was a lawyer and my oldest daughter is an attorney with Sidley. So okay. Yeah. Full disclosure.
Steve Fretzin: And do they ever put you on the cross and ask you too many questions?
They have done that. I have had a lawyer father and I talk about him on the show. He’s actually guys, if you’re interested in hearing the interview with my late, the late great Larry, the [00:02:00] lawyer Fretzin episode 200. And you can hear me yap it up with my, at the time, I think he was 87 years old at the time.
So pretty cool. Young man, just a whippersnapper. All right, Chuck, but we got to start the show like we always love to do with the quote of the show. And this one I had to read twice for no other purpose than to a understand it and be. To make sure I didn’t screw it up terribly when I did it with you.
So here we go. It is a James Baldwin quote. A journey is called that because, let me start that again. A journey is called that because you cannot know what you will discover on the journey, what you will do with what you find, or what you find will do to you. I totally screwed that up. I didn’t, I didn’t have a good flow.
You did that right. I did it okay. All right. Yeah. I sometimes give myself a hard time. The last
Chuck Andrews: part is already the key to it. You just don’t realize what the, what the journey is going to do to you sometimes.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, you know, I’ve had quite a few tragedies in my life and people, you know, should feel bad for me at the time.
But I, what I found is that these [00:03:00] tragedies. There’s another side to it and people don’t talk about it enough and it’s what’s, what did you learn and how did it help develop you as a human and you know, people that lose businesses or people that have debts in their family or whatever it is, it’s never good, but it does,
Chuck Andrews: you
Steve Fretzin: know, help us become stronger.
Chuck Andrews: Oprah’s got a good book on that and the book, title of the book is what happened to you. She says we ask people the wrong question. We ask people what’s wrong with you and we should ask what happened to you. Everyone’s had things happen to them that impact how they deal with everything.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. That’s really true.
That’s really true. Well, listen, man. Welcome to the show, Chuck. And I’d love to have you just share a little bit about your background and letting people know what you’ve been up to, and then we’ll dive into the deep end on some really important subjects. Sounds good. So yeah, so you’re going to tell us about you.
Oh wow. That wasn’t the form of a question, I think. I could be wrong. I
Chuck Andrews: didn’t register, you know. So I’ve [00:04:00] been in the, I started my career as a janitor in an NCR, which at the time was called the National Cash Register Company. Office in Danville, Illinois, I was 17 years old, and I ended up spending 15 years there, became a technician, then I became a sales guy, then I ran a brand, and it was a great experience on several levels.
One is that I was with, at the time, a company that had 95 percent market share of the point of sale business, and 95 percent to 35%. And so I saw what, what a big company, how it can decline. I left there and started my own firm in 1976 selling word processing machines, or if you know what a word processing is, it’s a step
Steve Fretzin: above a typewriter.
Chuck Andrews: Yeah. And I did that with a partner, which is one of my, one of my other big lessons in life is be careful how you choose your partner.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Chuck Andrews: Cause that, that thing lasted about two years and went out the smoke and. Long story short, I ended up spending about 40 years in technology. [00:05:00] My most successful gigs were with Dell Computer.
They were a little company, about 300 million when I started with them in 1990. Had a great run there. That led me to be the VP of sales for Toshiba Information Systems. Sold a whole bunch of portable computers, about 350 million worth. And ran a branch, a regional office for them. Chose to retire because I didn’t want to move to California.
And took a package from for FEBA and on the flight back from Irvine, California to Chicago stopped in Vegas was just a layover and a guy that worked for me at Dell called just happened to call me at that moment. And he says, I’m starting a new company and and my, so my retirement lasted about 30 days. I think it was and that company was headquartered in Dallas.
We did eCommerce solutions and we lasted about. Nine months, because we got the first 5 million from venture capitalists in the summer, [00:06:00] and we got the first million in cash three weeks before 9
Steve Fretzin: 11.
Chuck Andrews: And so 9 11 brought that company to a dead stop. The VC said, we’re selling everything, shut it out. So, I’ve had some interesting ups and downs.
I think I, at that time, I spent too much in retirement. Jumped on my motorcycle, took a long trip through the mid central U. S. and realized the one thing, although I lost a ton of money, that I was alive and I don’t recall those times after 9 11, but the country was probably pulled together more than we ever have in the many, many years and certainly we need to do that now.
So, I started up in January 2002, I started my business brokerage practice. And I was with a company called the Business Broker Network. It was, you were independent contractors using that as a tool to do marketing and also joined Midwest Business Brokers and Intermediaries, [00:07:00] MBBI. Yeah, sure. And so my former president of MBBI, great organization, a lot of education, all the transaction professionals in the Chicago area.
At the time now, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa, and Michigan have chapters of NBBI. So that’s kind of my quick background.
Steve Fretzin: And now you’re the CEO of, or the president of CEO 15 Ventures, which is, what do you do there?
Chuck Andrews: So I do really, I do one thing. I help business owners and CEOs grow their businesses and grow their ability to treat the businesses as an asset so that the time they’re ready to move on to their next chapter.
They’ve got a valuable asset to fund that move.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And so I think you may appreciate and understand the struggles of the legal community because you do work with lawyers and how challenging [00:08:00] it is for them to get organized and build something that is, you know, sellable, and that can allow them to have the autonomy of Yeah.
Retiring or not retiring or handing it off or whatever it is they want to do. Why do you feel or understand that lawyers struggle with that to the degree that you see?
Chuck Andrews: I think the biggest issue is actually the same issue most founders and businesses have. And that is, it is, it’s their heart and soul in the business and they don’t necessarily treat it like a saleable business.
They treat it like, you know, a tool they use to leverage their talents. And the attorneys are. To some degree, no different than accountants, even doctors that have a private practice, very much similar to a doctor with a private practice in that they don’t view their firm as a business. Excuse me, sorry about that.
And I, so I think the biggest challenge that an attorney has is to recognize. They [00:09:00] can build their practice into a saleable practice.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well that and I didn’t give my father grief at the time, but he You know knew he was going to retire at 65 to the day and I think six months before he did it he found a couple of knuckleheads that he was going to hand this business off to that were completely, you know inept and untrustworthy and all those things and so that business, you know, the lack of the business acumen and an understanding about how to you know You Convert a solo practice into, you know, dollars and how to continue to get paid out on that or make it a saleable event, I think really was beyond his, I mean, he knew he was the smartest guy in the room on the, in the league from the legal standpoint, but I think on the business side, he had no training.
So it was minimal.
Chuck Andrews: Yeah, I think, yeah, it is a challenge. And I’ve seen a lot of law firms where, and in size has a lot to do with, of course, I believe that there’s a book I’m reading right now called. [00:10:00] Wisdom at work, and it’s about how to learn from what we call the, the elders in the world, and how the elders need to learn from the young people in the world.
And too often, we have this antiquated idea of what someone, as they get older, will do. And many of the older people in this world actually support that because they do what you expect them to do. They go off to Florida, but there is a growing number of people that are capable of working into their eighties and nineties, and we could contribute a great deal.
And in the case of an attorney that as they get older, I think having the right mix of people around them. Strategically to make that firm an asset is key to their success. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin: With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality.
The best firms hire rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic and cases, [00:11:00] other law firm marketing agencies.
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
Where else does this exist? Learn If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. So let’s talk a little bit about that. I mean, how do people start to get prepared for The next chapter.
And again, if you’re in your 30s or 40s listening to this and you’re going, well, I’ve got such a long runway. I don’t need to think about it. Well, there are people that [00:12:00] move to their next chapter in their forties and their fifties. It doesn’t have to be 90. So what are some things we need to do to start getting prepared for that transition?
Chuck Andrews: There are two big things. One is look at your business as a business, identify the drivers that will make that business grow. Okay, and I’ve got a tool to make that assessment,
Steve Fretzin: or you can
Chuck Andrews: go to any valuation company. Essentially, you pay a little bit more money in a valuation because you’re getting to the formal stage before you really need to, you need a preliminary evaluation of a business.
This is where I’m at at this starting point. If I put the business on the market right now, this is what the approximately what what could happen at. And what can I do to change that? And then that’s the assessment we use compares where your drivers are at today against other people in your same space.
So, other attorneys, law firms have gone through the same process. So, that’s the business side. And that’s, that’s really an important side. The second piece is get your mind ready for what [00:13:00] is the next step. And most of the attorneys that are particularly the M& A attorneys have been on this call. Recognize that so many deals fall apart at the last minute, not because of the price or because of the terms, they fall apart because the seller, if it’s an attorney, the attorney isn’t really ready for that next chapter.
As a matter of fact, they’re quite scared of what the next thing is going to be. And they also recognize a bigger issue is their own identity. Who will they be when I’m not the, you know, the chief lawyer in this firm. So dealing with those two things, your mental state. And the business state, that’s the key to long term happiness, you might say.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And let’s take a step back on the business side because I think the other issue that continually comes up on this show and that we have to acknowledge is there are so many law firms that are still practicing in an antiquated way. They’ve got lack of process, lack of systems, [00:14:00] lack of talent. They haven’t built a brand.
There’s all these factors that go into what makes not only a sellable business, but maybe even one that you can. You know, hand off to people that are equity partners or that are coming up in the firm and they buy you out over time or they allow you to stay and work and manage your book or whatever you want to do.
But I think that’s a big one. Yeah,
Chuck Andrews: that’s a good point. Steve. I think the starting point there is how many attorneys ask their clients why they are their client.
Steve Fretzin: I’d say not many. I know that was a rhetorical question, but I’m gonna answer anyway. It’s actually, yeah, I’m just saying I know, I know the number.
Chuck Andrews: I know it’s very low and quite honestly that’s that’s true of many businesses.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Chuck Andrews: They just don’t recognize that they need to understand why people buy from them or buy their services from them or their products, whatever. So the, one of the first things we do in an assessment is do a customer score.
How does the customer rate, and we go out and, you know, interview a few customers. Because what we’re trying to figure out is how you scale the business. [00:15:00] And that’s another thing we look at. What is the possible scalability of business? And most firms have an ideal client profile pretty clearly articulated.
They knew who their clients should be. Many of them, however, don’t know what their bandwidth is. And those two elements create an opportunity. To either grow it or develop a short term plan that says, I just really don’t want, and you know, I’m very optimistic, have been all my life. And that’s why I’m 81 years old and still going strong.
And I think you first have to answer the question, do I really want to retire at a certain point in time?
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Chuck Andrews: And do I have a clear idea of what that means? So, yeah,
Steve Fretzin: I asked myself, I look, I’m 54 and I, Have really very little. My wife is going to be wrapping up her tenure at school as a teacher, and she’s going to get full, you know, the full pension and everything in about three and a half years.
So I think my thought for myself is I love what I do so much. I love the lawyers I [00:16:00] work with. I enjoy everything about my business that, I mean, I don’t know that I’ll ever retire. Maybe I’ll just slow down, or maybe there’ll be an aspect or an element of my business that might be sellable, or maybe there’s someone that wants to come in with me.
Sort of help me with the brand and eventually take it over. Of course, you got to find the right person, right? There’s a, here’s a, I don’t know if you heard this before about partnerships, but I heard this a long time ago. No ship sinks quite like a partnership. So to your point, 1976,
Chuck Andrews: my ship sank pretty quick.
Yes. Right.
Steve Fretzin: But I think that’s just. You know, just, you know, God, you got to be careful.
Chuck Andrews: Yeah. One of the tasks you can give yourself pretty easily is to answer this question. Is there a magic number? If I walk in and says, Steve, I’ll buy your law firm for X number. And I say, unless they throw something at us, I’ll give you 10 million for your firm.
Would that influence you one way or another?
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s a good question. Just to put a number out there and see what does to you inside. Like, does it make you, you know, emboldened to stand your ground and go, [00:17:00] no. Or does it make you go, hell yeah. Where do I sign? Hell
Chuck Andrews: yeah. It’s a hell yeah that so many business owners, particularly today, there’s a challenge between, is that how I want to raise my kid?
Thinking that, hell yeah, there’s some day in your very near future where you get that big dollar and you can do whatever you want to do. It’s the lottery view of life. More importantly though, is ask yourself, you know, am I doing what I really want to do? We had a speaker in my CEO group yesterday. It’s just, he was amazing.
And he had an exercise that people walk through called, what is your big question? What is the question that’s in you that you’ve never addressed? And he goes to Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. He looks at kind of a series of assessments about your life to say what does your life tell you about what you should be doing and what is your big question?
Einstein’s big question was, can I light ride a light of a wave, a light, light wave? Steve Jobs [00:18:00] was, you know, do Americans really wanna put PCs in their homes? It’s fascinating. Yeah. But we all have that question and we just haven’t dug deep enough to find out what it is.
Steve Fretzin: You know, it’s funny. I had that question years ago.
I think I’d been in sales for, I’ll just put a number out there and say, you know, 10 years. And I didn’t know, like, am I meant to be in sales? Am I meant to go out and sell, you know, X, Y, Z. And I took an assessment and you know, career assessment. I kind of figured out, you know, I had a person who did it and the two things that it said I should do.
One is sales. And the second is teacher. And I never thought in a million years I would somehow fumble into basically teaching sales or teaching what I call sales free selling. But I think it’s so interesting that the people that can find that question or answer that question and you know, I know it’s like, Oh, you, if you love what you do, you never work at a trust me.
I love what I do. And I work very hard. Every day, but I don’t know that, right? That’s the problem. I think it’s people that are grinding out hours or [00:19:00] grinding out a job and they’re just so unhappy.
Chuck Andrews: Yeah, I’ve got to do it attitude. It’s like, whoa, you don’t have to do anything. You don’t, you know, need to do and that’s not, you also have to recognize there are a lot of people in this world that are in the condition they’re in because of the circumstances they live in and we’re both pretty blessed guys with the circumstances we’ve been raised in and the opportunity we have.
Yeah, so not, not lecture.
Steve Fretzin: I think there’s circumstances and then I know that there’s something you talk about around saboteurs, like there’s people out there that are really not out there for your best interest. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Chuck Andrews: Yeah, so the saboteur assessment, that positive Intelligence, you go the, there’s a book called Positive Intelligence and the book describes in detail all these pieces.
It’s written by Dr.
Holy Mackerel, , and who I know he does a video training just like you do around. This topic of what goes on in our [00:20:00] brains and essentially it’s the left brain right brain piece where our left brain stores our saboteurs. He’s to identify about nine different saboteurs that we are affected by. His assessment that you take in, you know, 10, 15 minutes will identify how strong each of those saboteurs are in you.
And I’ve given it to over a hundred people and I’ve never had anyone say that’s wrong. Yeah. A lot of the assessments out there are spot on. It’s always, that doesn’t surprise me a bit. Oh man. And so my number one saboteur when I took it four years ago was that I’m a pleaser. And I’m a middle child come from a family that is no surprise.
And people that don’t know me, no, that’s no surprise. Now, each of the saboteurs can be either good or bad. So pleasing people is not a bad thing unless you’re doing it in the wrong way. If you’re doing it just to get something from someone, you know, you’re, you’re going down the wrong path. [00:21:00] The second one is high achiever, which when CEOs, hardly anyone isn’t in that category, pretty high.
And then go clear down to the bottom is the last one on the list is a victim. And I’ve had a few people that fell in that category. And when you go back to Oprah’s book about what happened to you, it explains why they feel that way. But just becoming aware of how strong those issues are in your, in your brain helps you start developing ways of, of taking care of yourself.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, something that I dealt with years ago was Just being a people pleaser, maybe, but I think it’s like, I wanted everyone to like me, and if somebody didn’t like me, I got like all wrapped up about it, all bent out of shape about it. I had to like go out of my way. Why don’t you like me?
What did I do? What did I, how do I think? Like, it just, and eventually I was like, you know what? There’s not everybody’s for everybody. You know, there’s going to be, I’d like to think I’m for everybody, but I know I’m not. There’s people out there that are probably that think I’m too much of this or too much [00:22:00] of that.
And that’s why you just got to, you got to really spend time with your people,
Chuck Andrews: right? We’re raised in a conformist society, the school’s trying to get everyone to be similar and it’s no different today than it was 70 years ago. Kids want to be liked in school.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck Andrews: And adults can do too. I’ve got nine grandkids and I’ve given those nine grandkids.
Grants get several my assessment and one of the things I did for them early on my oldest is 26. my youngest is 13. I wrote a book to them for them and the purpose was to ensure they understood that each 1 of them, even though they’re in the same family. Each 1 of them are very unique and that’s true of every human being.
We don’t see every human being. We see the ones around us. Right?
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Chuck Andrews: And I think getting attorneys to recognize. And getting any business person to recognize what is your unique, your unique spring and how are you planning it out?
Steve Fretzin: Really great. My father had a very unique [00:23:00] way of bonding with his grandkids.
He always had jelly beans in his pocket. He, he just cut right to the chase sugar. It’s a different method, but it did work. It did work. He found something that worked. Listen man, such great stuff, Chuck. I just can’t tell you how much I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom I’m a man.
I think that what you’re saying is resonating very well with me and with the folks listening. Let’s move on though to our game changing book of the show, The Fifth Discipline. Now, you’ve already covered two books, now we got a third. The Fifth Discipline.
Chuck Andrews: Oh Lord, man, I got about 500 to sit right here.
Steve Fretzin: Peter, what is it, Peter Seng?
Chuck Andrews: Peter Sengate. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin: Sengate.
Chuck Andrews: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He co wrote the book with I’m not going to waste time on it. The reason I bring it up is that he provides an outline for any business really. The five disciplines are around organizational learning. He just, he does a great job of giving you a blueprint for this is how you build the right kind of business.
So I encourage people to take a look at that. I’m big on [00:24:00] Learning from others. And that’s what books allow you to do.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Well, as we wrap up, want to take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, the law, her podcast Sonia, a shout out to you. What great work you do every single week of providing insights for women to get ahead in their journey.
And of course Rankings IO continuing to crush it, putting on PymCon again this coming year, they put on one of the best personal injury events of the year. And you guys are going to want to check out PymCon and, and if you missed last year, you’re not going to want to miss this year. He, Chris goes all out on this thing.
It’s really amazing. The talent that he brings in the speakers and the comedians and everybody he brings in to entertain. Hey, Chuck, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about. CEO 15 ventures, what you do, what’s the best way for them to reach you?
Chuck Andrews: You can reach me on an email, chuck at CEO15.
us. You can reach me on my phone, of course. So 312 451 8802, and you can also reach me through Vistage [00:25:00] or an organization called Value Builder, which I also represent. Our website is the best way to do it.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I’ve sort of been a fan of Vistage. LinkedIn. Oh, LinkedIn, okay.
Chuck Andrews: I also go to, you know.
Steve Fretzin: All right, good stuff.
Yeah, LinkedIn has become the, you know, the bomb as it relates to people’s information and profiles out online. And I’m, I was saying, I’m a big fan of Vistage. I’ve been following Vistage before they were called Vistage. And what were they called? Tech. Yeah. And and I just, I love what they do. And I’ve I’ve tried to model myself after them a little bit because, you know, I just know how valuable it can be when, you know, peers get together and talk shop and hold them, each other accountable and all that.
It’s really game changing. Yeah. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. And I was keeping the loop. Yeah, we’ll do that. And Hey everybody, thank you for spending time today with Chuck and I on the, be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are here to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.
Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.[00:26:00]
Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.