In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Dan Lear discuss:
- The evolution of modern sales philosophy and methodology
- Relationship-building and persistence in business development
- The impact of information access on buyer behavior and expectations
- Qualifying clients and aligning offerings with real needs
Key Takeaways:
- Hard-selling and product-pushing tactics no longer resonate in today’s market, where the more effective approach is to guide prospects through a personalized, trust-based buying process that prioritizes their needs and decision-making journey.
- To avoid wasting time and energy, sales professionals must rigorously qualify prospects early on by confirming they have a compelling reason to change, a genuine commitment to act, decision-making authority, and the financial means to proceed.
- In a world where buyers have access to the same data and pricing transparency as sellers, attempts to manipulate or pressure them are counterproductive and often backfire, as credibility and authenticity now matter more than persuasion.
- Sustainable business development stems not from being aggressively persistent but from cultivating genuine relationships, staying consistently engaged without being overbearing, and building trust through listening, relevance, and patience.
“If you don’t know what you want, be clear about that. And second, even if it’s in the short term, put together a plan to help you… move in that direction.” — Dan Lear
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Episode References:
- To Sell Is Human by Daniel H. Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Sell-Human-Surprising-Moving-Others/dp/1594631905
- The Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns: https://www.amazon.com/Win-Without-Pitching-Manifesto/dp/1605440043
About Dan Lear: Dan Lear heads up partnerships at InfoTrack. InfoTrack is a tech-enabled litigation services provider focused on court filing and service of process. Dan has started and run many legal technology ventures and has a passion for marketing, branding, business development, sales, and growth.
Connect with Dan Lear:
Website: https://www.infotrack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danlear/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/infotrack-us/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey, lawyers, I know what you’re thinking. Great. Another event by Steve Fretzin, but listen, this one’s different. Be that lawyer. Live is happening on July 24 and it’s packed with insights from real rainmakers who know what works. No fluff, all value. Head to fretzin.com/events, and reserve your seat now. And let’s make you into that lawyer.
Narrator [00:27]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:47]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin, here, and I hope you’re having a lovely day today. We are smoky here in Chicago in June. We’ve got this wonderful, big fire happening in Canada. And so what took a nice walk today and came back with a sore throat and said, Oh, that’s not good, but nothing compared to people dealing with those things up north. And you know, hopefully they’re okay. Hope you’re enjoying the show. We’ve got two shows a week every week been running for over five years, over 500 episodes, and we’ve got something for everybody you want to learn, business development, marketing, time management, technology, you name it. We’ve got it, and we hope that this show is adding a lot of value for your life. If it is, please don’t be greedy. Share it with people, let them know about the show, and obviously give us a kind review on your phone. And that’s all I have to say about that. In the famous words of Forrest Gump, was that Forrest Gump?
Dan Lear [01:39]
Yeah, I use that quote fairly often in other circumstances too. So, yeah, good one.
Steve Fretzin [01:47]
What is it? Stupid? Is a stupid does? There’s a bunch of good quotes from that movie.
Dan Lear [01:50]
Yeah, there’s a good one.
Steve Fretzin [01:51]
Dan, good to see you, man. We go back quite a few years, I think back to your avo days. Is that the case?
Dan Lear [01:56]
Yeah, yeah. I think that’s the first time we connected. Yep.
Steve Fretzin [01:58]
Yeah. I think I came and I spoke to, like a bunch of avo people, and yeah, if that rings.
Dan Lear [02:04]
Yeah, yeah, that sounds familiar, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [02:06]
All right. Well, very cool. Well, welcome, and I’m so happy you’re here. Let’s start off with the quota show. This is an important one for everyone listening. ABC always be closing. That’s from Glengarry. Glen Ross, great play, great movie. And I know you wrote kidding next to the because, you know, coffee’s for closers and it’s all about closing. And there are people listening that are like, would agree with that on a percent. I think you and I both know that. You know, sales has changed quite a bit. So what’s your take on that quote? Why? You know, obviously you’re goofing on me a little bit. But as the sales Free guy.
Dan Lear [02:38]
That’s totally, yeah, no. I mean, listen, first off, it really is a fantastic movie. And as an analysis of, to some extent, the way some sales people think, or used to think, getting inside of their heads in terms of kind of, you know how to think about sales, or how people used to think about sales, it’s quite fascinating. And really is just, it’s just a great movie. So, you know, wanted to give it a shout out there. But like, you know, I think it’s, it is a really interesting jumping off point for us, Steve, in terms of, like, and maybe would it benefit to just give a little bit of context in terms of kind of where this comes up in the movie, just really, yeah, sure, go for it, so that, you know there are a bunch of sales tension ends up being salesmen. But you know, sales people doesn’t really matter. And the sort of leader, the sales leader comes in from Alec Baldwin. By Alec Baldwin, very, very excellently, and gives this just like kind of excoriating speech to them about how they’re like, not even not doing their jobs, but like, berating them as humans. And his mantra is, ABC always be closing. And it is just this kind of very, I mean, heavy handed is even generous. Just very heavy handed, sort of hardcore sales kind of push and lecture, and he’s, he doesn’t even, you know, the other joke that comes from this is, coffee is for closers. Yeah, one of the guys gets up in the middle of the talk and goes to get himself a cup of coffee, and Alec Baldwin says, What are you doing? You’re not closing deals. Coffee is for closers. Like, sit back down and so, like, it’s such a classic, at least for our generation, Steve, encapsulation of how sales was perceived and how it was done. And so I thought it was a really fun kind of jumping off point, both for us too, because I think there are still some pieces from that that you can learn or adapt for a mod in modern sales techniques, though I’d love for you to push back on me, so I think it’s fun from that perspective, but also fun to sit back and say, Wow, how have things changed? And you know, how can that type of an approach be really bad for you as you think about sales for your business and for your law firm today?
Steve Fretzin [04:56]
Yeah, and I want to get into all that. And I mean, I come from. Background of pretty aggressive sales. And, you know, we had to leave, you know, six messages before we were able to give up on somebody. And it was, never give up. Don’t stop closing. Don’t take no for an answer. I mean, it was that kind of an environment. I had regular nightmares about the managers I worked for and how aggressive they were towards me and the other teammates. And, you know, that’s like, you know, putting in your time, I guess. But it was, it was pretty brutal. And, you know, thinking back on it, I have, you know, I laugh about it, because I’m like, I guess sometimes you have to go to war to like, to come out the other end. And that’s sort of how I feel because, but you know, these, you know, things happen for a reason, as they say, and so I think I needed to go through that stuff. But by the way, everybody you’re listening to my friend Dan Lear. He’s the VP of partnerships and info track, and I want to get into a real interesting business development sales. It’s, you know, conversation with you today to really give some great suggestions to people, but let’s take a moment to step back and talk a little bit about your background and how you came to be.
Dan Lear [05:56]
Yeah, absolutely. So. Dan Lear, Seattle, based, went to law school, was a tech lawyer for a number of years. Worked at Microsoft, actually, while I was in law school, and then did was outside counsel for them, kind of pretty quickly realized that for me, I was way more interested in the kind of, maybe technology side of legal practice than I was in being a technology lawyer. So little bit more than 10 years ago, actually ended up transitioning to a role in kind of business development partnerships and kind of thought leadership at at Avo, which, as Steve mentioned, is maybe where we initially connected. And then since then, have just been in a string of kind of successive different roles building technology companies that serve lawyers and the legal industry. So I started a payments business in this space that’s still going shout out to the folks at confido legal. I’ve helped a bunch of other companies along the way. My admin advisor for a company called Off the record that helps connect drivers with lawyers to fight their traffic tickets and but today, I spend the majority of my time at info track, where I head up partnerships, so definitely, sort of the long relationship based sales approach. And I think for me, Steven, I don’t again, I don’t want to pull you in too much of a of a direction, but like, you know, when I left the law, and I do say that I sort of had some sales experience. I actually did a mission for my church where I spent kind of two years proselytizing. And so I when people used to ask me if I had sales experience, I used to say that I sold God for two years. But when I left the law like I didn’t really have a lot of tools to use in business. And I wasn’t a developer. I, you know, products didn’t wasn’t really my jam. And so, you know, being a lawyer and having done a little bit of sales, you know, I fell back on those kind of tools of persuasion. And I’ll be honest, for the last even just 11 years in this space, or more than that. Now, the evolution of figuring out, sort of, how does one sell or advocate, or is really develop business is really it’s been an evolution in a and a real kind of area of development. I’ll just, I’ll mention one more thing just as a side note, because this is kind of interesting, too. What I the payments business that I started. We actually started it out of a an existing business called gravity payments, which is based in Seattle, and they had a very specific and kind of very well honed sales process that I had the good kind of fortune of, you know, being trained in and going through, and that really opened my eyes to sort of sales as a discipline and as a skill and and it wasn’t hard sales, but it was also, like, very intentional. So it’s really been an evolution for me, kind of getting to this place of kind of how you do it, and still feeling like I have a ton to learn.
Steve Fretzin [08:52]
Yeah, and the people that have the good luck to go through or to make a decision, to go through a successful and proven sales process to learn the skills and learn ways of doing things that are going to be efficient, that are going to be useful, that are going to not make people feel icky about it. You know, that’s a gift, and I’m teaching it every day. You’re learning it. And whether it’s me or anybody, and I’ve been through a ton of these, some of them were more helpful and useful than others, but I guess part of it’s like, what can you pull out of it that you can use? But having a system soup to nuts, there’s nothing much better than that. And then you can always customize it to your personality. But here’s where I want to go with this, like there was a change that happened in the late 1900s and early 2000s with the Internet. And I want to say like I saw this happen right in front of my eyes when more because I actually sold websites back when websites weren’t a thing like they just had started out. I was out working with hotels, restaurants and bars to sell them pretty sophisticated websites for, you know, what had been a very kind of, like a middle of a screen, you know, crap. You still see a couple of those out there. And the advent of the Internet. That where information was readily available was sort of the big switch in sales. Because if you go back to the 80s and 90s, when I was selling, it was the sizzle of the stake, it was truck. You had to trust the person, if they could, you know, transference of trust, and you kind of liked what they were selling. And it kind of made sense. You didn’t know if the value is really there? Like, is this car really worth this much? Is this service really worth this much? Like, is this remodel really where you just had no way? So you would compare with other maybe vendors, but that was the only way that you would really ever know if you were getting screwed or not. So we got screwed all the time. People were selling us all kinds of things, and we’d realize too late that was a mistake. Or, geez, I think I overpaid for that. The internet was the game changer, because that leveled the playing field where people now and buyers now have information and price they just never had before. So now, if you hard sell, and they’ve like, no, I’ll just go and do my I know my research. You’re trying to sell me a car at this, or sell me a new kitchen at that. And I know that it’s done here, and I know other people that’ll do it, you know, I can do my research. So that’s really what changed buyers and sellers. You know, buyers became much more in control, and they had all the information and the price, and so they’re able to sort of work over the sales professionals and the lawyers and the doctor, whoever was out trying to, you know, trying to, you know, provide a service or whatnot. So, I mean, did you see that as well in your career?
Dan Lear [11:25]
Yeah, I mean, I didn’t. I wasn’t in sales that early. So sort of, and again, I never, never really, at least early on, saw myself as being in sales. And this is maybe a different conversation in terms of, you know, I’ve heard people, some people, say we’re all in sales. And I think that’s an interesting conversation. You know, there’s the Dan Pink to sell his human book, but there, when you were talking, there was one story that I thought I’d share that that came up for me. And I think it’s pretty brief, but I bought a car a couple of years ago, and like everyone, we did our research in terms of what car we wanted, you know, where we could get it, the price. And Steve as a buyer, and I still actually feel a little bit bad about this, or I feel, I don’t know, like, there’s clearly some stuff I got to work through. But as a buyer, I came into this, and it was a used car. I came into this with the perception of, like, if I don’t negotiate, if I don’t beat them up a little bit on price, then I’m not doing my job. And so like, you know, I that’s, you know, I went in there and I really tried to drive a hard bargain, and they basically were like, Listen, this is the price. And I even, I even walked out of the dealership.
Speaker 1 [12:33]
He did all walk out.
Dan Lear [12:34]
Yeah, and I’m going, took, I’m really good, took them five days to come back to me and basically just say, Okay, we’ll give you some modest discount. And I honestly think, as I’ve thought about this in retrospect, that they were like, Listen, if that’s what it takes, then fine. But I think they and this is the point I was making, I think as the sellers, they were like, listen, we know what this car is worth, because we can triangulate it against, you know, two dozen others of this exact mileage, exact condition, everything else. So, like, we’re not, like, there’s no reason for them to manipulate me, because they have access to all the same information that I have access to.
Steve Fretzin [13:16]
Yeah, and look, look at what you went to make a margin, but that’s it, you know, look at what you went through or thought you had to go through as a buyer, because we’ve been so twisted by the car industry, and just in general, the fear of getting ripped off, the fear of being taken advantage of. And when I hear lawyers say they’re going on a pitch meeting, I sort of cringe a little bit, because I realize what they’re saying in that statement is we’re going to go out and we’re going to wow and we’re going to shock and we’re going to awe with how amazing we are and how much value we provide, and how, you know, our rates are high, but who cares? And then our firm is so deep and all this, and I love all of that, it’s maybe more of a matter of of when that’s discussed, not or, you know, versus it being discussed. Because I think the mantra that I always come back to, maybe I’ve mentioned this on the show, but it’s prescription before diagnosis, is malpractice, and people don’t understand that the way that we need to sell today is by not selling, but rather walking someone through a buying decision. And if that’s a fit and a win, win. You feel good about the car. I feel good about the car. The price is fair for both parties. We’ve talked it all out. There are not a lot of alternatives. This is the one that makes the most sense. Let’s decide if this is something we should move forward on. And that’s not how people are engaging in business development or sales and and that’s one of the reasons it can be so stressful.
Dan Lear [14:39]
Yeah, I’d love for you, Steven, maybe you have talked about it on the podcast, but tell me a little bit, kind of coming up as a sales professional, and again, maybe all of your listeners have heard this. So you can keep it brief, if you but tell me how that shift happened. Like, did you sort of wake up one morning and discover like, oh man, my tools aren’t working? Or was it like, oh wow? This is evolving into something that really feels more natural as a human, or at least more aligns with my values. I’m curious how that evolution happened for you.
Steve Fretzin [15:09]
It really happened when I met a coach who asked me a lot of questions about how I was selling and what my process was, and I regurgitated what my company had told me to do. I was following a system that my company at the time and I was selling franchises. And it was I actually had something called a pitch binder. What is that? Right? I warm people up a little bit. We’re sitting at a coffee shop, and I go, let me tell you a little bit about my company, and I start going through all the value, all the value, all the value. I take them on a tour of a couple different stores. It was all selling, selling, selling, and I just I didn’t know what they were really interested in. I didn’t know what their motivation was. I didn’t know if they had any money. I didn’t know if I was dealing with the right people, like in this coach just laid all this on me, and I was like, Yeah, my head exploded because I was like, I’m the one using an outdated system, and I didn’t even know it, because I was still doing great. I was still, like, the number one sales guy at some point, and I was, you know, hitting my numbers, and everybody was happy with me and all that, but it was like, all of these gaps that I just didn’t realize I had. And so it took someone looking at me from the outside in, because I couldn’t see it myself. And that’s what I find myself doing for a lot of lawyers, is they’re not recognizing that. They’re not cross marketing. They’re not recognizing their methodology is outdated, their networking, and if I mean the list of things that I’m able to identify now, you know, 21 years in is, you know, amazing, like as people, even people that are doing millions and millions of dollars a year, are unable to really recognize where their gaps are. So I drank the lemonade and I got into coaching after that, because it was so powerful to me that change that I saw in my life when I made that switch.
Dan Lear [16:52]
Yeah, no, I love that. I so there’s a book that Do you know Mike Whalen, I don’t think so. Okay, so Mike’s a good buddy of mine, has had a similar career path to me lawyer, because it sort of turned legal technology dude. And he turned me on to a book that you may or may not be have heard of, or even I might just be a methodology, I’m not sure, as a book, but win without pitching. I don’t know that. I’ve heard that one, no layer ins. And then there was another guy that he was doing a podcast with. Anyway, Mike turned me on to that content and on and on to that kind of book and that kind of methodology. But just speaking, when you sort of started talking about a pitch meeting, and I have to say, and golf, Steve, I maybe I need to hire you for as a coach, because I still feel like I I have so much to learn, and I could do this so much better, which, again, like is kind of the fun and interesting thing about sales, but the No, their whole, that whole, the whole premise of that book and that philosophy is like to your to your exact point, if you don’t know where that quote, unquote pitch meeting is gonna go, if you haven’t checked some boxes, if you haven’t identified what the issues are, if You don’t know who the decision makers are, if you don’t know the criteria upon which these decisions are being made, and you’re going into a pitch meeting, you’ve probably already lost and that for that, for me, you know, talking about sort of that mindset shift is a re it has been a really interesting one for me in terms of, like, you know, and thinking about it from a lawyer, business development perspective, right? Like, do they know who you are? Do they know what you stand for? Do they know how you deliver services? Do we? Do you know whether or not that aligns with what they want? Those are all things that can sort of be a part of that Buyer’s Journey well before your quote, unquote, pitching them.
Steve Fretzin [18:40]
Yeah. Hey, pi attorneys, if you’re serious about scaling your firm, there’s one event you can’t afford to miss. Pimcon, 2025 happening October 5 through the eighth at the Phoenician resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. Pimcon isn’t your average legal conference. It’s an experience. Learn how to take your firm from good to goat with some of the biggest trailblazers in the PI space, including yours truly, as we share our elite marketing and brand building strategies. Tickets on sale [email protected] that’s p i m, c o n.org, or just hit the link in the show notes. Your climb to the top starts at pimcon 2025 let’s go from good to go. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretson.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. I don’t want to take you know the idea of pitching or the idea of sharing. This is why our firm is great for. You because you have these needs, you’ve got this urgency for a situation that’s, you know, legal situation our firm specializes in, that we’ve won more than anybody. We’re the best. There’s nobody better to handle this than us. That’s fine, but just don’t do that first. Like, don’t go into that first. Like, let’s take the time to build some rapport. Let’s set up a game plan for how the meeting’s gonna run. Let’s focus on what I call and teach discovery, which is, how do we go from the tip of the iceberg down to the bottom, where all the water is, it’s all you know, 80% down. And let’s make sure that we understand them on a level that maybe no one else ever has, other than maybe a therapist. And at that point, when you understand people, you’ve qualified that they check all the boxes as a good client for you. Then, yeah, then not only can you pitch, but your pitch is going to be so much more in line with what they shared with that with you. They need. So just as an idea, if I hear that someone just needs one thing, okay, let’s say they just need. They need. They’ve got a sexual harassment claim, they need someone that can handle that by pitch involved talking about our whole firm and how our full service firm can help them. Is that a good idea, or should I just focus on pitching what they told me they needed to see, hear, experience problem, to solve the problem. So it’s like people just make mistakes all the time, and they just don’t recognize I wonder why they never called me back. I thought this was such a great fit. Or I wonder why they’re not responding to my emails. And I pitched them, and I sent them this great proposal, I spent 20 hours on it, you know, an RFP, all this stuff, and they’re just clueless. And so it’s typically lack of a good process and pitching too soon before you fully qualified. That’s, you know, in fact, I used to have mugs. It didn’t say coffees for closers, but inside the mug, you’ll love this, it said coffees for qualifiers. And I was trying to flip the mindset of the people I was working with at the time. It was entrepreneurs and sales professionals, but flip the script and script and say, We need to stop worrying about the clothes. The clothes will happen if you do all these things right. If you take a step up every stair to get to the top of a staircase, the door’s open. You walk through right. As long as you touch every stair, you’re gonna know that you can walk through and the deal is yours. Or maybe as a side effect, you start to understand that this isn’t a fit and not every box was checked. Maybe we can cut this off early, not meet us again and say, Look, this isn’t someone who can you work with someone Dan who has no money, right? Right? Can you work with someone who is not the decision maker and is going to be taking all of your extensive information and putting it up, bringing it up the ladder? I mean, how much does that shoot you in the foot when somebody tries to tell your story and try to do your sales process for their boss, right? Who’s money conscious and you’re not the cheapest guy in town, right? I mean, there’s all these things that can break down totally, yeah. I was just gonna put it back on you and say, look, you’ve had a successful career in relationships and helping people, partnerships and business development. I mean, what’s been your secret sauce?
Dan Lear [23:03]
Wow, that’s such a great question. And I I mean.
Steve Fretzin [23:07]
Is a numbers game? I mean, is it what?
Dan Lear [23:11]
Yeah, so, well, I’ve so I’ve been, I’ve recently gotten the feedback that I’m too nice and very likable, and the two nice piece is actually something that I’m trying to sort of sort out, because you don’t want to be a doormat, right? But I, you know, like, to some extent, and I don’t like, I know that’s not replicable, but like, to some extent, that’s a just a part of my personality, I guess, that I’ve traded on. But the thing, and this is where I wanted to come back to ABC, the thing that I, that I have done that it is I’m, I think, I hope, politely persistent. You know, I don’t give up, at least until I’m, you know, I’m told fairly clearly, I don’t go all the way to a no and I, I’ve heard some sales people say we annoy them until they just give in. That’s not me, but I have been pretty persistent in when I see something that I want and a direction I want to go in, kind of sticking with that. And that’s kind of like that spirit of ABC, you know, that of like opportunity seeking, you know, like, Hey, I’m open for business. Yeah, I’m looking to grow and to have an impact in this world. And I’m willing to do, you know, not whatever it takes, but I’m willing to work to, you know, realize the aspirations and the dreams that I have, or even just, you know, the thing that I want to get out of in that particular moment. I And I know you’re a big fan of this. If I were to pick something else, I’m also a I’m a pretty decent networker. I like meeting people. I like meeting interesting people. I’m genuinely curious about who they are. I love hearing people’s stories. I like aligning their stories with my stories. And you know, I like building those. Relationship, that’s one thing I found and me again, maybe it’s just became because it came naturally to me. But when I first got out of college and was first trying to, just like, figure out my way in the professional world, I did a lot of networking, and I almost instantly felt that the notion of just sending cold resumes out into the world with the hopes that someone would respond to them just felt like such a futile exercise, both because it was so like it created and again. Now you’re we’re going way deeper or farther than you want to do, Steve, but I’ll try to make this quick. It created this what felt to me like very false experience of like me presenting myself to them as something that I wasn’t, and them reacting to that in a way that wasn’t genuine either, and I was much more interested in being like, Hey, Steve Fretzin, you seem like an interesting person. You know. You’re doing things that are in the general vicinity of things that I’m interested in. Can we meet and have you tell me about what you see and how you see the world, and maybe have you tell me about three people you know, so that I can, you know, better understand like that just felt like such a more organic and human way to like approach, yeah, like professional development and business than than these sort of just cold, kind of impersonal approaches.
Steve Fretzin [26:18]
But I think that’s leading into and I love that you shared that the idea that how sales has changed, and now we’re calling it business development, because it’s just easier on the eyes, if you will, for the ears, the idea that it’s relationship driven, the idea that it’s about solving problems. It’s not about convincing anybody or not about jamming a square peg in a round hole or anything like that. It’s how are we meeting people who have a need to for our services, walking them through a buying decision? Is there a fit? And here’s the piece that might be missing for you that I’m really trying to help my clients with, is proceed forward with the people who are qualified. And there’s four qualifiers that I’ll share real quick, and then anyone that doesn’t meet these four criteria, they’re kind of out. So I’m not going to do the follow up in the same way that I used to, where I was just I will follow up with you to the end of time, no matter what you say, if they I want to qualify in the first meeting second meeting, these four things. Number one is, do they have compelling reasons to change? So if somebody has a problem that I don’t solve, I’m out if someone has a significant problem or multiple problems that I solve, I’m in they’ve opened up to me about them. Great. They don’t have a plan. They don’t they’re not networking effectively. They’re not locking up. You know, they’re getting in front of 10 people only closing two, not five or six, whatever it might be. It’s costing them a lot of money. Okay, compelling reasons to change. Number two, are they committed to changing? I’m not asking for them for my business. I’m saying, Are you committed to changing and not staying the path that you’re currently on, that where you told me you’re losing all this money and time? Number three is, are they the decision maker? And if not, who is? And there’s a very nice way of saying that it’s not you’re clearly a nobody at your company? Who is you’re not going to say that. It’s something more along the lines of, look, Dan, obviously, this is a big decision. Just out of curiosity, is there anyone else at your organization that’s been making these kinds of high impact decisions? Okay, so number three is, am I talking the right person? And number four is, are they qualified financially? You know, if somebody has a bankruptcy and credit card debt, and is way over extended, and you’re trying to sell them something for 20 grand. I mean, you can spend all the time you want, and they might seem very interested, but it’s not going to work, right? So we, you know, now, could they find the money? Yeah, maybe pay off the debt. Don’t, you know, to feed your kids first, right? That kind of thing. But if somebody has those four qualifiers, and I understand that they are ready to be presented to, and I understand them better than anybody. If it’s just me pitching without understanding those four things, then shame on me. I’ve just expended and wasted a tremendous amount of time with someone who I would consider unqualified for that time. That all makes sense.
Dan Lear [28:56]
Oh, I love it. I was actually writing it down. I was just going to jump in on number three, the one, the decision maker, the sales training that we did at gravity, that I really like, other than yourself, who would be involved in making this decision? Yeah, so it’s like, hey, totally recognizing that you’re gonna be a part of this, but who else.
Steve Fretzin [29:14]
If anyone, like, I don’t wanna offend anybody. Like, you’re obviously the big shot in the room. Don’t wanna offend you. I’m just curious if there’s anybody. There probably isn’t. But if there, but if there was, and even then, believe it or not, I may even ask another question, like, Tell me your Okay, so it’s you great. Tell me your process. What decision making process? Yeah, oh, yeah. So once I get the proposal for you, Dan, I’m going to run up to my board and see what they have to say. Well, that just changed everything you just told me, because even though you are a part of the decision making process, you just mentioned you just mentioned you had a board, and the board is ultimately responsible. So now I know that, right? So maybe now I’m going to change direction a little bit. Anyway, this is a conversation that can go on for hours and hours. I want to wrap up with our final kind of thing, which is Dan’s big mistake. What’s something that happened to you and your COVID? Career that was a big mistake. You learn from it that you could share with people listening.
Dan Lear [30:04]
Yeah, so really early on in my legal career, I actually fired, is probably a strong word, but not quite let go. Yeah, exactly, you know, parted for, you know, mutually with one of the law firms that I worked with early on, and it was a real shock to my system. It still probably informs the way I think about the world. I was a young attorney. I had a young family like I had worked really hard to get where I was, and it was, it put a ton of just, I just felt really, really big at the time. And I think the biggest lesson, I probably walked away with two lessons from that, though, and this is I’ve got, and Steve, you and I have talked about this. I’ve got teenage boys that I’m trying to help launch into the world. I know you have a son who’s getting ready for college, or maybe on the way.
Steve Fretzin [30:57]
And we’ll call that. We’ll call that a work in progress.
Dan Lear [31:02]
Yeah, for sure, but the thing I try to instill in them is like, you know, because the question that I’d never there were two things that I worked with. The first question I never asked myself is, like, and it’s insane, but, you know, this is just how things work out. Sometimes. What do I want? Right? Like, I think part of the reason that this job didn’t work out was that my heart wasn’t in it, and I didn’t know where I was going. And so, like, that was, that was sort of Lesson number one. And then I think lesson number two was, maybe it’s sort of like, I guess it’s, yeah, I guess it was two things, what do I want? And then the second was, and how do I go get it? Like, I need to have a plan. I need to have.
Steve Fretzin [31:39]
But not everybody that goes into law that’s a litigator should litigate, right? Or it’s not. Everybody that goes to college knows their major. They just go into something, and then they kind of realize halfway through this major really wasn’t for me, I just blew because I did that. I went to college and I I went right into a major that, that I thought was the right idea. And, you know, wasted a lot of time and money and doing that, not today’s kind of money, but back in the 80s, kind of enough, yeah, it was still something, yeah, but yeah. I mean, I think sometimes we have to to be put into situations that we don’t want so that we know what we do want.
Dan Lear [32:12]
And it’s funny when I when I was trying to sort of extricate myself from that and figure that out, I was so overwhelmed that actually the way I sort of went about moving forward was, I couldn’t figure out what it was that I wanted, so I started like, you know, crossing out things that I didn’t and so, yeah, like, Absolutely, like, it was, but it was, and it was, but it was tough, but it was really transformative, because it helped me sort of really take control of who I was and where I wanted to go, and, like, where I wanted to take My life and my career, and so that, yeah, I think, I think the lesson I would walk away from that is like, or that I would share is like, a if you don’t know what you want, be clear about that. And second, even if it’s in the short term, put together a plan to help you, and again, not even achieve it, but like, move in that direction.
Steve Fretzin [32:59]
Yeah, great advice. I appreciate that. And take a moment to thank our sponsors. We’ve got pimcon coming up in October, 1 class experience in Scottsdale, the Phoenician and, of course, the LA her podcast with Sonia Palmer, crushing it for women. And check that podcast out. Dan, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about you. Info track. What’s the best digits?
Dan Lear [33:19]
Yeah, best way to find me. I’m spending a lot of time these days on LinkedIn. You can find me. Can find me. Dan Lear, I’m in Seattle. I think I might even have one of those, like linkedin.com/and/danLear, like.
Steve Fretzin [33:29]
I got, yeah, your name’s right in there.
Dan Lear [33:31]
Early on, yeah. So pretty easy to find me. I’m pretty active there. That’s probably the best way to track me down. Okay, I’m also on Twitter, at right brain law. I spend some time there these days. But yeah, that’s probably the best way. And I welcome. I love Steve talking to people who, like, particularly, are in that space of, like, unsure what they want to do. But also, really love chatting with legal professionals, lawyers, whomever, about, you know, building their firm, taking it in new directions, that kind of thing. So would welcome anyone to reach out and tap me for whatever value my experience may provide.
Steve Fretzin [34:05]
Now, it’s very generous. And you have, you have a depth of knowledge and background in legal, and I just appreciate you coming on the show. I appreciate sharing your knowledge and kind of going back and forth with me a little bit today. And you know, I know this was super helpful for everyone listening, and you and I will, we’ll keep in the loop as well. Thanks, man. Awesome. Thanks, Dan. Yeah. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Dan and I today for a little bit and talking the little shop around the ABCs of business development, if you will. And, you know, my hope is that every show that you listen to, you’re taking something away that’s helping you get a little better, a little smarter, move in the right direction to Dan’s point, like, you know, have a little bit more of a plan. Have a move in a move in a direction that’s going to really make the best use of your time in your career. So take care, everybody. Thank you. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [34:53]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful Law Firm. US visit Steve’s website, frettezen.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends, for more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.