In this episode, Steve Fretzin and David Ackert discuss:
- The importance of strategic networking
- Leveraging existing contacts for business growth
- The role of influence and prioritization in business development
- The psychology behind relationship building
Key Takeaways:
- Attendees should prioritize learning about others, finding strategic partners, and providing value instead of aggressively selling, as networking is about relationships, not transactions.
- Rather than amassing connections, professionals should build a “shortlist” of key clients, dormant contacts, and high-value prospects for deeper, more meaningful engagement.
- Research shows it takes about 14 interactions from first contact to first contract, so business developers must stay consistent and strategic instead of giving up early.
- The best strategic partners should be assessed on chemistry (rapport), commerce potential (key contacts), capabilities (competence), and collaboration (willingness to reciprocate).
“What we found is that it generally takes our successful users about 14 interactions between first contact and first contract.” — David Ackert
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
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Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References:
Smart Collaboration by Heidi K. Gardner: https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Collaboration-Professionals-Succeed-Breaking/dp/1633691101
About David Ackert: David is the Co-Founder and CEO of Ackert, Inc. and PipelinePlus and a respected business development thought leader. For over two decades, he has pioneered revenue acceleration programs for professional services firms and founded ventures like Legal Lift, the MLR100, and PipelinePlus. His award-winning programs and software have been featured in NLJ’s Technologies on the Rise. A sought-after speaker, he keynotes partner retreats, industry conferences, and lectures at USC, Carnegie Mellon, and UCLA School of Law. He is also the author of The Short List and a contributor to The Wall Street Journal, Above the Law, and Law.com.
Connect with David Ackert:
Website: http://www.pipelineplus.com/
Email: [email protected]
Book: The Short List by David Ackert: https://www.amazon.com/Short-List-Business-Development-Focusing/dp/B0DCQ2Q8MS
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidackert/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Before we get to the interview, you wanna do our q and a. This is Tara from Kona, Hawaii, and she’s asking, I’m very uncomfortable networking at events. They feel gross to me, like everyone is there to sell. What can I do instead? I think you’re on the right track. Do not go there to sell.
I think that’s a bad idea. I think there are people out there pushing cards and. Trying to sell their stuff at a networking event, and that is not appropriate at all. You want to go there with an abundance mindset. You want to go there with questions to ask. You’re really there to learn about other people and see how you can add value and see how you can help others.
And also to identify and qualify who might be a good client for you or a good strategic partner as someone who might be able to refer you stuff. Those are the people that you’re gonna wanna follow up with. So always go in thinking like you’re there to help others, not there to sell. And if someone’s selling you and it’s feeling gross.
Get away from them. Go to the bathroom, get a drink, say, excuse me, and move away. Hopefully that’s helpful to your question. And for everybody, enjoy the show. We got a good one.[00:01:00]
Narrator: You are listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. Welcome back. It’s Steve Fretzin and you’re in the right place If you’re looking to be that lawyer, this is the show that helps just you be that lawyer, some confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. You guys know that I. Bring on the best guess, right? Everyone knows that I bring on the best guess onto my show.
Today is a hundred percent no different. I’ve got a superstar for you guys that’s gonna just rock your world if you’re interested in learning business development from another top layer in the industry. I got David waiting in the wings. What’s up my friend
David Ackert: Steve, it’s great to be here. Good to see you.
Steve Fretzin: We’re gonna have some fun today. We’re gonna help a lot of lawyers, and we’re going to create some great content. So [00:02:00] let’s start off with our wonderful quote of the show, and you got the Theodore Roosevelt Here we got Comparison is The Thief of Joy. Welcome to the show, and talk to us about why that is your quote of the show.
David Ackert: I think that’s one of these things that any human being has to grapple with, especially someone who is a high performer or somebody ambitious who’s an achiever. Ultimately, as you’re rising through the ranks, and we certainly see this in the legal industry, you’re going to look at the competitor across the street or you’re gonna look at somebody you aspire to and you’re gonna compare yourself to them.
Now, there’s a positive to that. Obviously, if it motivates you to, put a little more gas in the tank that day, great. But I find on most days it just bums me out. Because ultimately what I end up doing is I start experiencing envy, or I start saying how come they were able to do this and I wasn’t?
And suddenly I’m the victim in that conversation. So to the extent that I can, I really try to remove myself from comparison, and I just try to focus on what am I up to? What can I do about it to move it forward today, and how can I just be the best [00:03:00] version of myself?
Steve Fretzin: I think just looking inward and keeping your head down and driving your mission forward, is it, and the other thing I would add to it is, and you and I are great examples, Elise Holman and Gary Johnson, and like the list of.
Sales, business development coach, friends that I have in this industry, I think also plays a role. Like you don’t have to think of everyone as a competitor and they’re gonna take this away from you or take that away from you. I think, and I hate that abundance mindset has been overplayed to death, the idea that, lean into the relationships and the people who do what you do because there’s so much business out there.
Right on.
David Ackert: You are absolutely right. Steve, I consider you a friend and. You’ve never taken a client from me and I’ve never taken a client from you. And I think that, we are absolutely a testament to the fact that you can learn from each other, you can add value to each other, and that doesn’t have to mean that somehow you hurt yourself in the process.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, my father, the late great Larry, the lawyer would go into court. And the attorneys that were against him in court, he would be very [00:04:00] cordial with and friendly with. And he’d end up making friends with them and they realized, hey, this is a super smart guy. And even though we’re doing the same things, there’s other things this guy can do that I can’t do, or there’s other things that, just go, that where I know this is somebody I can trust and someone that is really smart and I think he got a lot of business from, and I think he did share that on my podcast episode 200, that he did get quite a bit of business from competitors.
And I think that’s, it’s not a bad strategy.
David Ackert: No, not at all. And I think especially in the legal industry, you see it all the time, right? You’re playing the long game and somebody who might be opposing counsel today ends up being in-house counsel a few years later and yeah, you’re glad you stayed in touch.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You guys are in luck today. We’ve got David Ackert, the CEO of Pipeline Plus. You showed up on my show in 2020 and I’m kicking myself. I didn’t have you back a couple years ago, but I’m happy that you’re here and give everybody a little bit of a snapshot of your background leading into, ’cause you’re not.
Someone who, started out in the lawyer coaching space, he had quite a different path.
David Ackert: That’s true. I took a very, I haven’t met [00:05:00] anyone else who quite took this path into business development coaching for professional services. So my first career aspiration was as an actor. And so I moved out to Los Angeles.
I was in a bunch of TV shows. I was in the West Wing and Jag and Monk and Bones and CSI Miami. I. I was playing villain of the week on a lot of these shows, and that was my thing. We talk about niching your practice, right? My niche was I got to be the bad guy. And so I did that for quite a while.
And then as one does in the arts, you start to find other vocations to create financial stability. And I found my way into a tech company where I started doing business development there. I found my way to a wife who happened to be a lawyer. I. Then the dot bomb hit and the tech company went under and my acting career started to stall out.
And I thought, okay, time for a second act. And it was really my wife who pointed out, she said, look, you’re a great presenter. You’re a good speaker. You understand business development, you understand technology. These are all things that lawyers [00:06:00] need to start to integrate into the practice of law. And we get none of that training in law school.
So why don’t we start to build a business that helps lawyers using the skills that you’ve developed over the years? And so that was really the genesis of our company.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And you just published we’re gonna talk about the game changing book later, but I do wanna just open up, you published a book recently, the short list, how to Drive Business Development by focusing on the People Who Matter most.
Can you just take a moment and share a little bit about what that book’s about?
David Ackert: Sure. Absolutely. So for the last 20 years, I’ve been working mostly with law firms all the way up and down the AM law list. And what we have encountered over and over again in professional services is that, we are in an era right now where.
People have the opportunity to be more connected than ever. Through social media. We have larger networks than we ever have, but we actually experience less meaningful connection person by person. And I think the reason for that is that, we have this volume, this high volume of connections that we can [00:07:00] amass, but at the end of the day, those relationships don’t amount to much from a business development perspective or from a.
Depth of relationship perspective, because we have to prioritize. We have to create that short list for ourselves. At the end of the day, there is a short list of key clients, key friends, key referral sources, key prospects, people who can really move the needle for us based on what we want to accomplish.
And if we can. Identify who those people are and really create an intentional, purposeful plan for each of those people. We’re much better off than amassing another 500 plus LinkedIn connections.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s a little bit like the 80 20 rule, and it’s like I could go spend 80% of my time out meeting new people.
In reality, I should spend 80% of my time on the 20% that I already know. Is that sort of what you’re getting at?
David Ackert: Yes. Okay. Yeah. The 20% you already know for sure. But then one of the other things I talk about in the short list, and we really, we’ve done a lot of research, we’ve done a lot of data analysis to figure out exactly how big a short [00:08:00] list should be, and what we’ve discovered is that yes, focus on the people you know, but also integrate about five to 10% of that list.
As people who are either targets like, gosh, I really wanna work with X, Y, Z company. I don’t know anybody there. So I’m gonna add them to my short list and start coming up with ways to, get connected to them either through my existing contacts or just outreach or whatever it might be. So it’s not strictly people you already know.
It’s mostly people A few people you want to get to know. And then the other group that should be included in your short list are dormant ties. These are the people who you used to be connected to five years ago. They were part of your orbit and for whatever reason, you’ve fallen out of touch.
Those relationships have a lot of untapped value in them. Because let’s say, you’re seeing someone who’s a client or a friend and you just hung out with them six months ago. That conversation’s gonna sound like this. Oh, how have you been over the last six months? Yeah. Business as usual.
There may be this one new opportunity we can talk about or this one new thing that’s occurred that [00:09:00] might be, interesting for us. If I haven’t talked to somebody in five years, oh my gosh, we went to college together, or we were at this other company together, this other firm together, whatever, and we’ve been completely out of touch.
When I get back in touch with that person, the conversation sounds oh my gosh, we’ve launched this new portfolio of companies and I’ve amassed all of these new connections and gotten, what do you do now? Oh my gosh, we have so many ways we could work together, right? There’s this burst of value.
So that’s also part of what needs to be on your short list,
Steve Fretzin: but break that down a little bit further because I think the tactical language of that reconnection is a very important thing that lawyers want to hear. It’s been five years, I’ve completely lost touch and track of that contact. There’s value in getting reconnected.
They’re now a GC at a major company. They weren’t before. I don’t wanna come across Hey, now you’re doing something great and now I’m gonna come back into your life. I don’t wanna approach it like that. What’s the take on that?
David Ackert: Yeah, I wanna, I’m gonna address what you’re saying, but I want to speak [00:10:00] to a pattern of thought that is so often proposed when this kind of situation comes up.
The pattern of thought is I don’t want to, and then we paint the most ridiculous offensive approach as the most likely way to proceed. I think anyone with common sense and empathy would never reach out to an old friend and say, now that you’re the G no. Obviously that I was setting, I
Steve Fretzin: was just setting it up, but Right.
David Ackert: Yeah. I totally get what you’re doing there. But the thing is that you are reflecting the thought that pops into everyone’s head. They always think worst case scenario first, and then they nix the idea. ’cause it sounds so bad in their head
Steve Fretzin: and they never do it.
David Ackert: And then they don’t do it right. So we have to take a step back, right?
And we have to say, okay, I’m a good human being. I’m an empathetic person. I actually do care about this person, but we fell outta touch for whatever. What is a reasonable way that I might reconnect with this person? You’re a gc, I wanna do business with you is not a reasonable way. You would never say that, would you most likely [00:11:00] say, you might say something like.
Hey, we’ve been out of touch and I was just thinking of the other day, how have you been? It can be that simple, right? It doesn’t have to be strategic. You don’t have to come up with a framework like just being normal, find that the other person actually feels less pressure and it’s very natural for them to talk to, get into that conversation because you’re reaching out in a way that is just genuine and easy, right?
You wanna make it easy for them.
Steve Fretzin: Any kind of past experience, a past contact you have in common, or you were remembering you went to. A band together, a number of years ago, and you crossed my mind, you popped up on LinkedIn. Maybe something that nostalgically brings you back together is authentic and also softer, right?
Than a direct,
David Ackert: you’re absolutely right, but I also don’t wanna make it too hard for folks. You don’t even have to think about that band or whatever, because even that’s fabricated. You can just be like, Hey, you popped into my head and it’s been a while. How have you been? That is fine, and [00:12:00] you can use that with any dormant tie.
Steve Fretzin: Nice. I love it. I think that’s an important thing because we get the analysis paralysis or the perfectionist lawyer who you know, would rather, come up with the perfect way versus having a good way.
David Ackert: Yes. I’m here to tell you that, the most sort of natural way to proceed is the most frictionless one.
It’s the one that requires the least analysis, and it’s the one that’s going to likely land with the most favorable outcome on the other person.
Steve Fretzin: Hey, I wanna ask you about how you consistently stay in touch and maintain relationships. Before we get to that, I have an idea about this and I wanna get your take on it too, which is, what is the best way, and I hate to use the word rate in some way, but that’s what it is.
Like not all clients and not all relationships are created equal. There are people that. You know better than others, and there’s people who have more opportunity to refer you than others and more people that can give you business than others. So how do you, if you’re putting a list together and you wanna rate them A, B, C, D or something, what are the [00:13:00] qualifications you would give for a top tier contact versus a second tier contact?
How do you put that in play?
David Ackert: Sure. So you start with your SMART goals, right? Smart is the ACT acronym, which, specific, measurable, achievable, realistic time bound. I say that because a lot of lawyers, when they think of their goals, their business development goals, it gets a little vague. They’ll say, my goal is to grow my practice, or my goal is to be the go-to lawyer in this, whatever.
So you really want to be specific and measurable about that. Where do you want to be two years from now? How big is your book, right? What are you practicing? What kind of clients are you working with? Really paint that out for yourself so that it’s clear. But once you have that destination, you can start reverse engineering.
Okay? Who are the people who can help me achieve those goals? Because at the end of the day, you can’t do anything alone. So once you start to think about, all right I would need, obviously, if I wanna be working with Fortune 500 clients, I need to have a few Fortune 500 clients. And so I should have some Fortune 500 prospects today, or at least.
People who can introduce me into those circles, I’m gonna need to be [00:14:00] affiliated with associations that afford repeated contact with those kinds of people. So what organizations can I start getting involved with today? So when you’re reverse engineering those goals, it starts to help to give shape to the kinds of people who you want to put on your short list.
Then the other thing that I would really recommend, and I talk about this in the book, is influence scoring. And the way influence scoring works is on a scale of one to five, you place yourself in the middle at a three, and the people who are a four have more influence than you helping you get to whatever that smart goal might be.
So for instance, if it’s a Fortune 500 client, a four on a scale of one to five is someone who might know the GC, but is not the GC at a four from 500 client. The five is the actual decision maker at the Fortune 500 client, right? So as you start to paint the picture of who are the people that I’m hanging out with, given this influence score, what you’ll see is that most of the people you’re hanging out with are also threes because birds of a feather flock [00:15:00] together.
We tend to surround ourselves with people who are like us, demographically. Socioeconomically. It’s just comfortable for us to do it that way. What you start to look at is, okay, I don’t have enough fours in my network. If I did my three would look like a four. I’d just redefine and recalibrate the whole thing, right?
So what kinds of activities can I start to engage in that will expose me to fours, and maybe I can even gain a few fives in there too, right? That’s gonna be harder from the perspective of the three, but if you can just look at that next rung up. In the context of your smart goals, who are the people that it can get you a little bit closer to that outcome that you’re looking for a couple of years from now?
So if you look at those two frameworks together, the smart goals, the Reverse engineering, and that influence scoring, and you start to analyze your network, your current short list, it informs some of the activities and people that you need to start to introduce. Into your constellation so that it starts to look a little bit more like those [00:16:00] higher influence scores that you’re after.
Steve Fretzin: Got it. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, rankings.io prides itself on proof not promises mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies. Can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free [email protected] today.
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking what’s the rainmakers round table? I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers. To continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island in Talk Shop with America’s Top rainmakers, please go to my website Fretzin.com and apply for membership today. And I [00:17:00] think you’re talking really about the connectors to the prospective clients that you’re really targeting.
I. And I love that and I want to go a little bit of a different direction for a moment and just share that you as a lawyer may have clients that know everybody, or you may have clients that are really well connected. And so I’m grading them differently in a different way of, if it’s someone that I have an iron clad relationship with, we’re going to games together.
They call me for everything. I’m their consigliere, and they know everybody. They have the keys to the kingdom, to other GCs around the country. That’s gonna be, for example, an a contact for me because they’re the ones who have the greatest influence and power ability to get me business. And then a b might be someone that I have a great relationship.
I’m not really sure who else they know, but maybe I need to explore that further. Yeah. So I’m just giving like a different take on what you’re saying. I. Based on existing relationships, and I don’t know who they know. I don’t know if they know Fortune 500 or whatever, but I’ve gotten enough [00:18:00] information to identify that they’re well connected.
They’ve come from a place, they’ve had assistants that have gone off to other GC roles that they have relationships with, and I’m just like, I’m trying to figure out like, where’s the low hanging fruit?
David Ackert: It’s absolutely right Steven. It doesn’t really matter which lens you’re using to identify your shortlist.
It’s critical that you are using one though, and that ultimately you’re documenting that shortlist. If you stop any lawyer in the street and you say, okay, who are your high value relationships? Who are the most important people in your professional life? Most of them wouldn’t be able to rattle off the names, they’ll come up with one or two, and then they’ll say, I’ll have to think about it.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
David Ackert: So if that’s your position, then I promise you, you’re not curating a short list effectively. You’re not staying in touch with the most important people in your life because you’re not even sure who they are in a given moment, right?
So make the list, make sure that you’re revisiting that list regularly. Hire a really good coach like Steve to drive you to that list and give you recommendations on what to do with those people. You can use. We, we have an app called Pipeline Plus Tracker [00:19:00] that’ll remind you to stay in touch with those folks and prompt you with suggestions.
And again, whatever system you’re using, just have one, because otherwise it becomes really ad hoc. And I just see too many lawyers out there who are just winging it. And of course the results they get are commensurate.
Steve Fretzin: And again, it’s, this is the example I talk about with a lot of the people I interview and evaluate for clients for myself is it’s like there’s a table in front of them loaded up with money to the roof, right?
Millions of dollars and they’re just walking around it all the time instead of walking into it. And the reason is they’re not understanding the importance of low hanging fruit, the importance of that network they’ve already developed and they’re out running around meeting all these new people all the time when they should just focus on you’ve got a hundred clients, when’s the last time you saw them? When’s the last time you walked through their warehouse? When’s the last time you asked them about other things they may need outside of the matters you handle? Oh, I don’t do that. I haven’t done that. There’s your business. There’s your year.
You don’t have to go crazy and run around at a bunch of, [00:20:00] networking events all the time.
David Ackert: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. In the short list I have this section called the 40 Actions Matrix, and what it does is it lists out 40 different things that you can do to touch base and advance a relationship.
Right? Love that. And the 40 actions matrix is actually broken down into the seven engagement stages. And what we find is that the earlier engagement stages are really tricky, right? Because you barely know the person. You’re just trying to warm up that target, whatever it might be. That’s the stuff that lawyers really struggle with.
And they need a lot of recommendations. But once you get toward the end of those seven stages, these are people who are already clients. You’re just looking to expand the relationship, get some new work from them, just deepen that connection. But you already have a strong enough connection that it shouldn’t be that hard to have an outreach.
And so that’s where the list of 40 actions is longest, is you already know the person. There’s a lot you can do with them. And that’s a resource that folks might find helpful.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s great. I love that it’s. [00:21:00] It used to be just good service, quality service at a reasonable rate, and that’s loyalty.
And today, to your point, you’ve gotta go so much beyond that in your relationship and how you give and how you help, and how assess and become their consigliere, become their go-to person. And that’s what generates the client loyalty that many lawyers don’t have. And wonder why that GC just left or brought someone in house because you did get there.
You weren’t doing all those things you’re talking about.
David Ackert: That’s right. I think we talked about this when I was a guest last time, but just in case, one of the other things that we did when we were doing some research here is we looked at the most successful users in the Pipeline Plus app, right?
And this app’s been in the marketplace for over a decade. We’ve had thousands and thousands of lawyers use this app in pursuit of business development contacts. And what we’ve seen is that the most successful users have a lot more touch points with their short list. The ones who tend not to be that successful, they give up too easily.
So what we found is that it [00:22:00] generally takes our successful users about 14 interactions between first contact and first contract. So when you first meet someone you’re following up with them, you’re networking, you’re talking to them, whatever. You invite them to an event, you’re talking back and forth a little bit.
You go to a game together, whatever it might be. But these interactions all add up, and usually right around the number 14, that’s when they’re logging their first piece of work from that person. Wow. It just helps you understand you’ve gotta stay in the game, you gotta play the long game, and you’ve gotta have a lot of things that you can bring to the table to initiate interaction.
But otherwise you’re just gonna be another one of those lawyers who gave up too soon.
Steve Fretzin: But I also think it’s important to qualify people you’re meeting to understand the likelihood that they’re going to be in a position to refer you. So they already have five people that do what you do in your last on the list, or they don’t ever come across.
I’m not talking about targeted going after those Fortune five hundreds through a connection, but [00:23:00] more like people that can routinely refer you matters, five, 10 matters a year. Those types of strategic partnerships, and I don’t know that lawyers are effective at qualifying. I. Who can give to them year in, year out and who, may be a wild card and to make sure you’re not, courting someone for years that’s never gonna refer you or has a rare chance of referring you versus courting people who maybe have the keys to the kingdom.
David Ackert: Yeah. The book talks about that as well. So we, there are four characteristics of an effective referral source or an effective connector. So the first one is chemistry. You have to make sure that you get along with each other ’cause you’re going to have a long-term relationship here. And if that chemistry isn’t there, it’s gonna seem forced and it’s gonna fizzle out before it ever gets to the races.
The second one is commerce potential, right? You have to make sure that they actually have access to the kinds of contacts you want, and you can usually figure that out within the first conversation or so just by asking some exploratory questions about, who do you work with? Or do you [00:24:00] know so and or, what kinds of situations or business situations do you run into? The third one is capabilities, and this one’s important because you wanna make sure that your referral sources have very high capability. They themselves are very competent in what they do. Otherwise you’re gonna hesitate to refer them work so that you can usually assess that in that first meeting just by asking them a hypothetical, oh, you’re an accountant.
We had a client who had this weird financial situation. How would you have advised them on that? You just audition them for the part, and they can give you a sense of whether or not they sound capable enough that you would put a client in front of them. And then the fourth and probably most important one is collaboration.
And this is, again, you wanna make sure that you’re talking to somebody who’s a giver, not a taker, somebody who is gonna refer five to 10 whatevers, not just wait for you to send them work and, expect you to be grateful that they did a good job for the client. And so you can usually assess that simply by giving them something.
Like an introduction or share an article with them and see how they respond. If they don’t try to give you something back, you’re probably [00:25:00] looking at the makings of a taker and you can assess all of that in the first meeting or so. You don’t have to wait for five or six, months or years before you take ’em off your list.
Steve Fretzin: But I don’t think lawyers are very good at doing that. So the con, the in fact that you’re sharing your four Cs and giving that kind of information and some questions to ask and all that, I think that’s super helpful. To the folks who have been just putting out a tremendous amount of time meeting with everybody, because that’s what networking is and it’s not, yeah.
That’s a lot of working. That’s what that is.
David Ackert: Yes. Yeah. A lot of fruitless working. A lot of
Steve Fretzin: fruitless working.
David Ackert: Steve, you have so many great frameworks in your work and you know the book is full of them as well. At the end of the day, that’s a lot of what we’re endeavoring to do as coaches is work with really smart people who.
Got really good at what they do, but they didn’t necessarily study business development. And there are a whole series of disciplines and strategies and techniques there that can just make them more effective at what they’re trying to accomplish.
Steve Fretzin: [00:26:00] Alright, we’ve got one more question for you then we’re gonna wrap up with a game changing book and it’s, there are attorneys who, and I talked to one literally today, I did a podcast, shout out to, Lewis at Love by Lawyer.
There was a person listening ’cause it was a live thing and she said, she’s doing the, the base hit in the doubles, but she’s looking for bigger clientele and she wasn’t really sure how to transition to getting into the bigger deals, the bigger trials, the bigger opportunities. What’s your suggestion for people who have been getting good business coming in, but it’s not the bigger deals that actually may be more interesting, exciting, and fruitful?
David Ackert: Yeah. I would circle back to this influence score model. If that lawyer looks around at her network, I’m sure she will see people who have about the same influence as she has because those are the people who are either referring work to her or the people that she’s hanging out with. She needs to start to elevate the kinds of forums that she’s in so that she’s being exposed to people who have [00:27:00] access to those high value opportunities.
If she’s sitting on a board, maybe think about extricating herself from that board and joining another board where the right people are there. Or if she’s going to a conference, like really think about is that the, you’re gonna get the same results if you keep doing the same things, right?
So you have to start revisiting where you are investing your time and. That is exposing you to such that you’re ultimately moving up that influence score.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. And again, for those of you listening right now, I dunno if you’re driving, don’t take notes while you’re driving, but maybe listen to this again with a pen and paper.
There’s so many great takeaways that will help you really. Keep your time and your focus on, where the business is and not wasting time on things that are fruitless. David, amazing as always. Your book is a game changing book, but let’s talk about one other game changing book that you recommended and I wanna just put out there.
It’s Smart Collaboration by Heidi Gardner. Can you talk about that book for a moment?
David Ackert: I’m a big fan of Heidi Gardner’s work. She wrote the forward to the shortlist. That’s how big a fan [00:28:00] I was. There you go. Reached out to the one author. I’m like, I really want to, have you set the stage for my book Anyway, Heidi’s work is great.
So anyone who is at a larger firm looking for some ideas on how to cross sell more effectively, how to kind of attack. A situation from a team perspective smart collaboration. You can’t go wrong with that.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Let’s also take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, the law, her podcast, you haven’t checked that out.
Please do. And of course, PIM con’s coming up. If you’re in the personal injury space and you wanna. Go to a first class experience Chris Dryer, man, he’s just a rockstar. He’s just putting on like the greatest experience you’re gonna have at a conference all year. Also, David, if people wanna get in touch with you, they wanna buy your book, they wanna check out pipeline plus all the things you do, what’s the best way for them to get those digits?
David Ackert: I’m more than happy to connect with anyone on LinkedIn and you can always go to pipeline plus.com. If you’re looking for more information on the book, pipeline plus.com/the shortlist, we have excerpts from the [00:29:00] book that you can download and various other resources. And all of those resources are free.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Thanks man. Thanks for coming back and I know it’s. One of those, shortlist, we’re the shortlist, but we need to probably keep in touch more than we have been because I do continually find and see value in, in our friendship and collaborations. Maybe we do some presentation together. We figure something out because I think we’re just, we’re two guys really focused on helping this community.
But, so thanks so much, man. I just appreciate you coming back and sharing your wisdom as usual. Always impressive.
David Ackert: It’s always a pleasure. Steve and I welcome any opportunity to collaborate with you.
Steve Fretzin: All right. All right. This is what it’s all about, everybody. In case you’re wondering what. Be that lawyer is all about.
It’s all about sharing the love, building a business, and and having real positive energy, especially with people you might consider competition. And they’re not. For David and I, competition is lawyer apathy, people doing nothing to grow and we’re, this is us off every day. But ultimately you guys keep listening.
Also feel free to check out my YouTube channel. I got over 650 videos and also my podcast. This podcast. [00:30:00] And. My articles on Above the Law, so check that out as well. Helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening. To be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice, visit Steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and march. Trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.