In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Deb Feder discuss:
- Importance of client relationship management and deepening connections
- Prioritizing tasks to enhance productivity and work-life balance
- Role of social media in professional growth and networking
- Effective business development and optimizing client interactions
Key Takeaways:
- Lawyers can achieve more sustainable productivity by prioritizing just two major tasks before checking email each day, preventing inbox overwhelm from dictating their workflow.
- Strategic questioning, like asking “Tell me more” or inquiring about specific client concerns, allows lawyers to gather deeper insights that often reveal additional opportunities to add value.
- LinkedIn profile optimization—especially the “about” section and professional headline—helps professionals attract the right clients by clearly reflecting their expertise and approach.
- Lawyers should leverage informal moments and small talk in client interactions to create authentic connections, which ultimately build client loyalty and lead to new business opportunities.
“Tell me more… triggers your brain to get back in and actually actively listen, and from there you can thoughtfully respond.” — Deb Feder
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
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Episode References:
Make No Small Plans: Lessons on Thinking Big, Chasing Dreams, and Building Community
About Deb Feder: Deb Feder, CEO of Feder Development, LLC, is a business development and practice management strategist and coach for lawyers and law firms. Having practiced corporate law for 15 years, her work focuses on helping lawyers and professionals bring in consistent clients through curious, confident conversations. Deb holds a history degree from the University of Michigan and her JD/MBA from the University of Iowa. She completed her coach training and certification through New Ventures West and completed training in The Daring Way, which is based on the research of Dr. Brené Brown. She is the author of After Hello and Tell Me More.
Connect with Deb Feder:
Website: https://debfeder.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bizdeb/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey there, we’re heading into a new year and I’d like to change up how I open the show. Each episode I’ll be sharing a quick question and answer on your greatest challenges in growing a successful law practice. Additionally, I’d like to hear what you’re struggling with and answer your questions directly on the show.
[00:00:15] Steve Fretzin: Please email me at steve at Fretzin dot com with something you’ve been struggling with and I’ll answer it directly on the show only using your first name. Let’s try this out and see how it goes. Thanks and enjoy the show.
[00:00:31] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:53] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are here for your. Listening pleasure twice a week, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And one of the things I love to do, and part of the kind of the beauty of my job here is I get to meet the most amazing people in legal.
[00:01:11] Steve Fretzin: And there’s someone that I’m interviewing today named Deb Fetter, who I’ve heard her name for a long time, and just had been dying to meet her and eventually get her on the show. We got hooked up, and here we are today. So Deb is here. How you doing, Deb?
[00:01:25] Deb Feder: I’m great. Thanks, Steve. Glad to be here.
[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: Good. Good.
[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: And we both have dogs. And so we’re like freaking out about dogs going, doing something that’s going to ruin the show, but it won’t. It won’t. Whatever happens, happens. We just go with the flow. I think that’s the play. So
[00:01:38] Deb Feder: how to help him for the best there.
[00:01:39] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. We’re going to hope for the best. Do you have a box of Nilla wafers to feed the dog like you did last time?
[00:01:45] Deb Feder: Okay. So just so everybody understands, I usually have food and I actually, as soon as I told you that story, I looked around and I was like, I have no reinforcements
[00:01:53] Steve Fretzin: here. Yeah. There’s nothing to stop the dog from going
[00:01:55] Deb Feder: nuts. There’s nothing. I can’t. I’m just going to roll with it.
[00:01:59] Steve Fretzin: We’re going to roll with it.
[00:01:59] Steve Fretzin: We’ll see what happens. Yeah. Let’s, let’s just, let’s go with it. So everybody knows if you’ve been listening to the show, we do the quote of the show and normally it’s like a famous quote from someone, you know, from history. But my favorite thing is when we come up with quotes that are meaningful to us that we come up with.
[00:02:14] Steve Fretzin: I have these frets and isms that I post online all the time of little things that pop into my head and I’m not suggesting they’re brilliant, but I think they’re useful. Deb’s got one from her book, After Hello, How to Build a Book, a Business, One Conversation at a Time, and the quote is, a conversation is simply two people discussing an idea, thought, or opinion.
[00:02:34] Steve Fretzin: When we simplify the conversation to this, opportunity shows up and shines through. So awesome quote. Tell us about that and welcome to the show.
[00:02:42] Deb Feder: Thanks so much. You know, I, over the time, people would say to me, I’m nervous about this conversation or I’ve got to prep for this conversation. And I finally, like, started backing up and saying, but what if it’s just two people exchanging an idea?
[00:02:57] Deb Feder: Like, can that be okay? Can that just be enough? And I think that when we take, like, the grip off of a conversation, it opens up. Like, we can spot opportunities, we can spot the next thing we want to talk about, right? Like, when you and I first talked, we couldn’t stop checking because we had so many ideas or things in common or things that, like, maybe we see from different perspectives.
[00:03:18] Deb Feder: And I didn’t come in with, like, an expectation. Of what has to happen or where the conversation must go. Now, that doesn’t mean that like we don’t have an idea of like how we’d like to feel after a conversation or what we might want next steps to be. But if we kind of just like let go and be in that moment, we pay attention.
[00:03:37] Deb Feder: We can spot opportunity. We get to be ourself. And people like to connect with other people who are at are being real.
[00:03:44] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and actively listening and empathizing and demonstrating that we’re interested as opposed to trying to one up or dominate a conversation or anything where, you know, we’re just thinking like, what am I going to say next?
[00:03:56] Steve Fretzin: What am I going to say next? That’s the worst.
[00:03:59] Deb Feder: So it’s really interesting. I talk about this all the time that we have this like thing in our brain where we start thinking that’s, you know what, I’ll respond with this, but the other person keeps talking. And you’ve already started formulating this idea.
[00:04:11] Deb Feder: You actually stopped listening. And actually, that’s not what they were talking about. And you can see what happens, right? So it’s actually one of, so my second book is called Tell Me More. And it’s actually started as the trigger for when you need to like get your brain going. Back in the conversation, but you don’t want to say I accidentally just tuned out because I was thinking ahead So if you pause and you’re like, I don’t know what they said I just say, you know what?
[00:04:38] Deb Feder: Can you tell me more about that?
[00:04:39] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,
[00:04:39] Deb Feder: it makes you like it triggers your brain to like get back in and actually actively listen and from there You can thoughtfully respond
[00:04:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and tell me more in the grand scheme of all the questions that I teach or that I ask myself You It’s probably my favorite because, and lawyers are notorious for this.
[00:04:59] Steve Fretzin: So a lawyer hears a problem and then says, what is the solution? How can I show how smart I am? What am I going to tell them to demonstrate expertise and how we’re going to staff it or what the rates are, whatever it might be. And I’m like beating them up saying, please don’t talk. Please don’t sell.
[00:05:15] Steve Fretzin: Please don’t pitch. The next question after you hear a problem is that sounds difficult. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? And then they talk for 10 minutes and you get all the juicy details. And so that is the most powerful question. I’m so happy that you shared that.
[00:05:29] Deb Feder: Well, okay. So my next step after that is to say to somebody, Okay, before I jump in, can you tell me, are there any questions that you have for me?
[00:05:41] Deb Feder: And at that point, if they bring up rates, then you know what their concern is, is rates. If they bring up timing, then their concern is timing. If they bring up something like a very particular substantive question, that’s where their head and their worry space is. So instead of jumping in, assuming.
[00:06:01] Deb Feder: They’re going to not like our rates. They’re not going to not like our timing. They’re going to be worried about our staffing. Those are all assumptions. You don’t know, right? So you get them to share more, pause, and before you assume, like, here’s the questions, or I’m going to start the solution. Ask them what they want to know from you.
[00:06:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I love that. We can just keep going, but I, we have to go back and then to go forward. So give a little background, Deb. For everybody listening, Deb Fetter is the, I don’t know, Chief Bottle Washer, founder of Fetter Development. And how long have you been doing lawyer coaching? It’s quite a ways.
[00:06:35] Deb Feder: So I think I have to do it based on how old my kids are, but I believe I know, like, I’m like, no, I think that’s fine.
[00:06:41] Deb Feder: So I started doing this about 12 or 13 years ago and I went out on my own over 10 years ago. Okay,
[00:06:49] Steve Fretzin: got it. So, yeah. Really cool. And what were you doing before that? Give us the background.
[00:06:55] Deb Feder: So I practiced for 15 years, both big law and in house the entire time on, in a corporate transactional practice, M& A finance.
[00:07:04] Deb Feder: Corporate contracting, all sorts of different aspects of that. My very first 30 days of practicing were in a litigation practice that turned out not to be a great fit, had to have a life lesson there. But then really loved my practice. And when I started and ended in private practice and when I came back, my mom was sick and eventually was dying at some point, you know, years, a few years later, my grandmother became my primary responsibility and I had two small kids, nobody drove yet.
[00:07:35] Deb Feder: Like life was happening at a pretty rapid pace. And I wanted and loved my thriving career and I started thinking about how can we make this easier together, right? Knowing that I love client relationships, I love working and building strong strategies with clients. And I started talking about it with both clients and the lawyers I worked with.
[00:07:57] Deb Feder: And very quickly this career and this stuff, and this is before there were lawyer coaches. This is way before like this field had exploded and I started testing and tweaking strategies and it blossomed. And at that point I had to make a decision, you know, or I was ready to make a decision and I’d really done all that I wanted to do in the practice.
[00:08:19] Deb Feder: And it was time to fully embrace this kind of my work.
[00:08:23] Steve Fretzin: They’re really cool. So, let’s sort of dive in because there’s so much to cover in so little time and I always love to start with problems and then go to solutions, which is maybe a theme we’ll carry through. But why are lawyers, and I know the answer to this and I want to hear your take, why are lawyers so challenged by productivity, time management, business development, marketing?
[00:08:45] Steve Fretzin: Why is that such a raw subject for them? Not the people listening to this show, but the other lawyers. Of course, everybody else.
[00:08:51] Deb Feder: And it was never you or me. Right. Of course. So first of all, we live and work in an age where there is an endless amount of technology and abilities for people to contact us, right?
[00:09:04] Deb Feder: And we’ve, we’re being raised with the technology, like our careers are developing with it at a rapid pace. And so we’re never really going to be on top of that, but we have this dream of always being. On top of it. Right? And so I think if you start your days in triage mode, and you’re just trying to keep up with everybody else’s fires, you’re assuming that when somebody says urgent, they mean yesterday, right?
[00:09:30] Deb Feder: And again, to how you started a few minutes ago, pause and ask them to tell you more about that timing, tell you more about like what it is. And we can change the story quickly. But we’re so busy and worried about keeping up with everything. that we have forgotten to pause and prioritize and change our days.
[00:09:49] Deb Feder: And so when you make the choice to own your day, you can rapidly change this equation. But then if you take marketing, business development, career growth, all of that, and you try to just layer it on top, what we think of is that we have to fit things into like the margins. So like our clients get our full days, families and our priorities outside of the office get our full days.
[00:10:14] Deb Feder: And so everything else we need to squeeze in and so nothing ever feels satisfying, right? Instead, I want them all to blend together for you to make a great day. And knowing how to do that, I think is really the game changer.
[00:10:30] Steve Fretzin: So then what are the changes that have to happen to get the productivity in the day that blends it all together?
[00:10:36] Steve Fretzin: Because that’s the beast, right? That’s the, I mean, learning business development and executing on business development has to be secondary to. How you create space and time and interest in that activity.
[00:10:50] Deb Feder: So first of all, I think that business development and client relationships should be managed and built.
[00:10:56] Deb Feder: With the work on your plate to start with, especially, right? So you’re in conversation with somebody knowing the conversation you want to have and having that strategic question. You’re kind of your approach set out. You don’t have to have another call with them. You’re already in the middle of a meeting.
[00:11:12] Deb Feder: Take five minutes and blend that together, right? So knowing that, but backing up, how do you start your day? Right? And I love asking people how many people start their day in the inbox. And everybody’s like raising their hand and then I say, I’d like you to stop and they look at me like I’ve literally just, you know, taken away their, you know, favorite pony.
[00:11:37] Deb Feder: And I’m like, listen, here’s the thing I’m not suggesting. I do understand the demands of being a lawyer in private practice. I understand that you are being paid to be responsive and available and all of that. If you can start your day by understanding those two, just two primary priorities before you triage your inbox, you don’t let the chaos of the day, like take over all progress on like a bigger picture projects or things that are actually do that week, whatever it might be.
[00:12:14] Deb Feder: So if my clients, I set this up, you know, on the calendar in the week, every week we do it live. Right. And layering in knowing then how to take a five minute business development tool that day, a five minute managing your work task and a five minute cultivating a healthy career. How are we like sustaining our full self to show up for the practice starts to inch away at that balance without saying today we will take a break and you will now have a healthy practice.
[00:12:46] Deb Feder: That’s no one has that. And if they did, they don’t want to give it to that, right? So I think it’s where your mindset is and how you set up your day and then how you end it.
[00:12:58] Steve Fretzin: I would also throw in that being a student of time management and understanding what to say no to, what to triage, what to delegate, what you can say, you know, like I’m teaching senior associates and even low partner level folks how to turn away business or how to turn away work, I should say.
[00:13:17] Steve Fretzin: When they’re just overloaded and then business development continues to get pushed down. We know it’s a priority and it’s little things like that, that I think make a huge difference in how somebody incorporates the marketing, the business development, the client relationships into the day, as opposed to just triaging the email.
[00:13:37] Deb Feder: Well, I’ll be curious if you also see this. I hear people all the time say to me, I don’t think I want to take this on because I think they’re going to act like the demands on what they’re going to want. Are going to be too great. So I should probably not do that. I’m like, you’re, that’s a lot of assumptions about, you know, the expectations of work or the expectations of what might happen next.
[00:13:59] Deb Feder: Why don’t we go out and like have the conversations and see what happens. And then we will learn how to delegate, build the team, expand your practice and rethink how you manage your days. So once, like, instead of saying a proactive, no, let’s just be curious for starters, and then we can build out the system that is needed for that bigger practice.
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[00:14:44] Steve Fretzin: io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
[00:15:07] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com, and apply for membership today. So, I want to go back to something you said earlier, because you’re on the phone with a client.
[00:15:26] Steve Fretzin: You build in that relationship, you’re helping them with some important stuff, and you mentioned that there could be some strategic questions that you’re asking when you’re in that moment in that call. What are some examples of some strategic questions you would ask that might sort of loosen things up or maybe identify a new matter, identify opportunity?
[00:15:46] Deb Feder: So, I, and this is always to everybody’s disappointment, that question depends on you and your practice, right? I’m going to
[00:15:52] Steve Fretzin: say it depends because that’s a very lawyerly answer.
[00:15:56] Deb Feder: Okay, but, so first of all, can we back up and say pay attention to the smelter, right? Yeah. Pay attention. When somebody gets on and says, I’m really sorry, the plumber’s going to come and interrupt us.
[00:16:07] Deb Feder: Our bathroom exploded last night. Okay. Right. Or the washing machine is like literally moving across the floor, which mine did actually once. Right. I know. Right. But at that point, I know what’s going on in your world, right? A little sliver, but it allows me to check in and say, I’d hope everything’s okay.
[00:16:29] Deb Feder: Right. You and I are recording this in the, you know, kind of the onset of an expected storm, right? Okay. I’ve reached out to many people to say, I’m thinking of you. If there’s anything you need, let me know. I, cause I know where they live. Right. And, or, you know, I hope you and your family are safe. It allows you that little bit of human connection and a way to show that you care in an authentic way, because I really do care, right?
[00:16:55] Deb Feder: I’m not being phony about it, but you have to. Pay attention to hear that and then to be able to use it. Like, I don’t think you need to write a novel of, you know, they went on vacation to Hawaii, they have a problem with their washing machine, two dogs, two cats, like whatever. I don’t think you need all of that, but I do think it helps if you pause and pay attention.
[00:17:14] Deb Feder: I then think it’s okay to say, Hey, I’m working on something and I’d love your opinion, right? So I just had this conversation with somebody earlier today, and we were talking about the fact of like, okay, if you’re focused on this in Q1, right, out of curiosity, what are you doing for it right now? Like what’s the internal conversation?
[00:17:35] Deb Feder: And all of a sudden you start to hear how they’re prepping for something, what they’re planning, what are the questions that they have, right? And if you have the same conversation with multiple people and everybody has those same questions, now we get a fee, right? And once we have a theme and we kind of know what the words are that resonate as a lawyer, instead of just saying, I’m really smart and you need to work with me.
[00:18:01] Deb Feder: I can tailor flying alerts, thought leadership webinars. I can look out for articles that could be interesting, which allows my followup and my follow through. To be targeted it to resonate and to like open up the next opportunity to help.
[00:18:19] Steve Fretzin: Okay. So it sounds like client development is client loyalty and deeper relationships by listening and being very helpful and useful to them where it’s some point.
[00:18:30] Steve Fretzin: Is there an opportunity to leverage all that goodwill and not in a salesy way, but in a way that everybody can win? 1,
[00:18:39] Deb Feder: 000%. And sometimes it’s not waiting for the long time. Sometimes it happens right there. Hey, listen, I, we have somebody who just did a client on alert on this. Are you comfortable with me sending it over?
[00:18:50] Deb Feder: Right? I always say, ask for permission, whether you’re at a cocktail party or on the phone with a client and they say, Hey, we’re scrambling to figure this out. Hey, I think we’ve got some resources on that. If you’re good with it, I’m going to send them over. They’re going to say yes. Right. Or that’d be great.
[00:19:04] Deb Feder: Thanks. And then you, your job at that point is to actually complete it. So that follow up, that follow through right there is critical. Cause if you don’t do that, you’ve like let that opportunity lag. And I don’t know about you, but I spend a lot of time helping people. You can, we can recover from that, but it’s a lot easier if you go ahead and actually follow through right there.
[00:19:26] Steve Fretzin: And the lowest hanging fruit is always you’re on the phone with a client, they have extra work for you. You’re on the phone with a client and you ask a few extra questions about, you know, what other challenges they’re having or what they’re looking to accomplish in later this year. You’re getting into that kind of dialogue and you hear something that basically jumps out at you that there may be additional ways you can add value for them either directly or through your partners or through a strategic introduction.
[00:19:53] Steve Fretzin: So that’s kind of what I’m thinking like when you put all that goodwill out. And you’re asking great questions. There’s more opportunity to get business there in different ways than going out and meeting someone new and spending all your time out meeting strangers essentially.
[00:20:08] Deb Feder: So throwing your like business card out there and hoping that somebody like is like, Oh my gosh, I want to call them is not an awesome strategy, right?
[00:20:16] Deb Feder: That’s just like throwing. That’s old
[00:20:18] Steve Fretzin: school. It happens, but it’s old school.
[00:20:20] Deb Feder: It happens, but it’s okay to get out there and meet people. But like, let’s put some strategy behind that too. But another two things I was going to add is that, yes, you want to add value to what they’re also working on. But you also want to interrupt and understand what they’re doing to process something before they call you.
[00:20:38] Deb Feder: So if we are trying to like go through a risk assessment, Before calling it. Well, tell me about what you’re using as a form for that risk assessment. Well, we don’t really have one. Okay. Can we talk if you had a simple risk assessment? This is something we do for people. Then all of a sudden I’ve interrupted.
[00:20:57] Deb Feder: Like, before, like, what’s happening? And I’ve inserted myself into that conversation. Does that make sense?
[00:21:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it does. So you’re identifying things that are missing. It’s almost like you, there are clients that have risks that they don’t know about, but you can figure out that they have them and insert yourself into it.
[00:21:14] Deb Feder: Either risks or opportunities or things have shifted around here so fast and we’re just trying to keep up. And so because of that, where the team has changed, somebody stepped off. Do you need somebody to step in and help? Yeah. We can do that. Like, here’s the thing. What I think is super interesting. Is that you have the professional who wants the work and you have the client who needs help on the work.
[00:21:40] Deb Feder: The client is waiting for the professional to say, I’d love to help. The professional is waiting for the client to say, I need your help. At some point, somebody has to like, pick up an offer, like just offer it out there. Right. And just be like natural about it. Yeah.
[00:21:54] Steve Fretzin: I mean, one of my clients is just says, he just says, I just need to get out of the office and go meet, go to my, go see my clients.
[00:22:00] Steve Fretzin: And he’s like, every time I go see my clients, I come back with new work every single time. So it’s like, you know, look, there’s a lot of opportunity. If you don’t have any business, you know, obviously we need to work on building a network and getting it. But if you have clients of your own and you’re not leveraging them properly with questions and with a value for them and all that, I think that’s a huge misstep in how you invest your time wisely.
[00:22:23] Steve Fretzin: Because there’s a lot more that can be take that you can get and do in the least amount of time essentially
[00:22:29] Deb Feder: and look at People want a trusted thinking partner They want someone that they know is going to answer the phone and it may not be you that they need But they may need somebody just to sit with them because their work right or their concern
[00:22:43] Steve Fretzin: There’s a lot more to unpack around around that piece But the other angle that I wanted to take today is is a little Different in the sense that I’ve been on and teaching LinkedIn for I want to say 17 years, maybe 18 years, I mean, right when it came out and people started to know about it.
[00:22:59] Steve Fretzin: And you’ve been hot on LinkedIn for a while, and I just want to give like a couple of good tips for law, cause lawyers are afraid to post. They’re not sure about who to connect with or not. They want to engage, but it’s mostly like doom scrolling versus engaging in a productive way. So. What are two or three tips that you would give on LinkedIn to help lawyers listening kind of get through to the other side of value?
[00:23:23] Deb Feder: Okay, first of all, I’ve never heard it called doomscrolling before, but like now I’m adding that to my vocabulary.
[00:23:28] Steve Fretzin: But you know that’s happening on social media. It doesn’t matter what it is. We’re just bup bup with the finger. Yeah,
[00:23:33] Deb Feder: and that’s okay, but It’s not just for teenagers
[00:23:35] Steve Fretzin: anymore.
[00:23:38] Deb Feder: I actually made the point on LinkedIn today that I think the adults are worse with like staying connected in there than the teenagers.
[00:23:44] Deb Feder: So three, okay. Three tips you wanted. Yeah, let’s do it. Okay. So number one, I think it always helps to start with, make a big list of what you want to be talking about. Okay. And a list of what your clients want and need to be talking about and make a good old fashioned Venn diagram. Where do the two overlap?
[00:24:04] Deb Feder: And that’s your start of content. Okay. Yep. I do think that humanizing your contact helps. But instead of making again, a life post, something that’s relevant to your life and something that’s relevant to business, how can we make that connect and be part of one post? So it’s shining a smidge of personality if that’s your approach, right?
[00:24:25] Deb Feder: That being said, I’ve got some clients who do incredible content development that’s very fact based, but it’s consistent and it’s very brand appropriate and it works for them over and over again, right? But starting with like knowing your tone. How you want to be out there and then where’s that overlap will help you like really hone in on the content.
[00:24:48] Deb Feder: The second piece is who’s your client? Do you understand that if they are startups who don’t have the expertise that like you really offer their beginners at this, whatever your, you know, niches, that’s one thing. If they are sophisticated companies who have a fully staffed team and you want to be showing that level, you need to think about where’s your post and where’s your content going to resonate.
[00:25:13] Deb Feder: So if you really do work up here, but you’re talking about the beginning stages of stuff, you got to explain why that’s important because otherwise you’re going to get the calls from people that don’t match what you do.
[00:25:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Okay. I like that. So yeah. So personality built in to education or information, I think that’s sort of important, you know, step one.
[00:25:33] Steve Fretzin: And then two is know your audience and know what posts are going to resonate with them versus people that may not be as interesting to you to work with or meet.
[00:25:41] Deb Feder: Right. Because if people say, well, I get the wrong calls. Well why? Okay. Okay. And then three, I think your about section, which is in your profile.
[00:25:51] Deb Feder: Okay. A lot of people don’t have an about section. No. They skip it. And they skip it, and I think, well, okay, so I’m giving you four tips, , you I, you need something in that about section. And the about section is not really about you, it’s more about your clients, what they get from working with you, what your expertise.
[00:26:09] Deb Feder: And it’s not just a repeat of your resume. Right. That part’s down an experience. It can be three sentences. It can be three paragraphs, but it needs again to tell the story that’s going to resonate. Right. And then the most valued piece of real estate you have on LinkedIn is that little headline underneath your name.
[00:26:28] Deb Feder: Yeah. And as much as you want to say dog lover and, you know, Olympic fanatic, I would put that at the end of that statement, because that’s not why you’re looking for someone to call you necessarily. So make sure that it gives them enough understanding so that when you comment on a post and they see that little headline, they know what you do.
[00:26:50] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And absolutely remove associate at ABC firm. Like that is not a headline. Like if that’s the book, I don’t want to open the book. This is your headline. I need to know.
[00:27:01] Deb Feder: I need to know what you do.
[00:27:03] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Give us the title of your book. And a great picture a great background like it’s the book cover, right?
[00:27:09] Steve Fretzin: I don’t want to read further about your you know about you as my lawyer if you don’t grab me up top
[00:27:16] Deb Feder: Yes, and we could go into pictures and background and all that and I do think it matters And I always say to people at first Could you please take off any picture that comes from like chopping other people out of the grill?
[00:27:31] Deb Feder: Any picture that was in a bar Let’s not. Yeah. Right? Like not for a profile photo.
[00:27:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, there’s great photographers all over the country that can do headshots for you. It’s not going to cost you a million dollars and it’s going to make a huge difference in how professionally you look and does that look match up with your theme?
[00:27:52] Steve Fretzin: Meaning if you’re looking to be. A tough divorce attorney, you’re not going to have a big smile. You’re going to have a serious look like I’m the one who’s going to get you where you want to go. Like you figure, you know, I’m not just as an example, figure it out or do you want something or do you with the attorney that wants to be warm and fuzzy, you can have a warm, fuzzy inviting smile.
[00:28:09] Steve Fretzin: It’s, you got to pick your lane on that.
[00:28:12] Deb Feder: Well, so I will tell people, photographer that I use, I bring him into my retreats and he does a whole class on facial expression coaching and the science behind. Photography and how people are reading your photos is Brian Gailey. Go look them up on LinkedIn. He’s just a master.
[00:28:32] Deb Feder: He’s, but he really does do a great job. And he talks to every single one of my clients when they come to our retreat and asks, what are you wanting people to feel when they see this picture? What do you want the message to be? And then he works really quickly to give you that. But I think deciding what is it that I want people to know about me just at a glance.
[00:28:57] Steve Fretzin: But just to wrap it up with a nice little bow, I mean, you and I would, I’m sure, would sure agree that LinkedIn, you got to have a good profile and you just have to get started. You just need to post and just start once a week, just do something to get to break the seal and start putting content in and playing the game that, you know, right now you’re sitting on the sidelines and you know, that’s kind of, you got to, you’re either in the game or you’re not in the game and there’s a game being played.
[00:29:24] Deb Feder: And I will say this, I was the first person to tell you I didn’t want to be on LinkedIn. I didn’t want to be active on LinkedIn. I wasn’t interested and I will save the story for another time, but it is worth it. It has been worth it for my clients and again, just try it once and see what happens and then we can test and tweak from there.
[00:29:43] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Well, Deb, I, we could talk for hours and we’ll have to have you back, but I want to share that your game changing book is make no small plans and now that’s one I haven’t heard and I want to hear your synopsis of it why you think that’s such a wonderful book.
[00:30:00] Deb Feder: So here’s the thing. I love to wander around a bookstore and this book like jumped out at me and I did not know what to expect.
[00:30:06] Deb Feder: And I always tell people I’ve given it out to clients before. And I say, just so we’re clear, I love everything in this book. I do not want to buy a mountain. So I won’t like spoil the book for you, but there may be the purchase of a mountain in the book. What I love is it is a group of entrepreneurial minded people who built an incredible business and following by picking up the phone, by sitting down to dinner, by knowing exactly what they want to offer.
[00:30:35] Deb Feder: And although they are definitely not old school, what really worked was not slick, shiny, glossy marketing materials. But picking up the phone and being real, sending the one to one email and having the conversation and when it comes down to it, building a thriving practice is about that, right? If that’s what I believe it and that the human connection really cannot be glossed over.
[00:31:03] Deb Feder: By by anything shiny people want the real and they resonate in the real.
[00:31:07] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, check that out everybody and as we wrap up want to thank our sponsors rankings. io for your website pay per click seo needs and of course Our one of our newer sponsors recently is law her podcast l a w h e r If you’re a woman and you want to listen to a fantastic podcast that’s going to benefit women in legal That is the show for you.
[00:31:28] Steve Fretzin: So check that out Deb, if people want to get in touch with you about your services, to just hear more about your retreats, things you’re doing, what’s the best way for them to reach you?
[00:31:37] Deb Feder: Two ways. One, come find me on LinkedIn. Are you on
[00:31:40] Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn? I wasn’t
[00:31:41] Deb Feder: sure.
[00:31:41] Steve Fretzin: I am.
[00:31:42] Deb Feder: I know. Crazy, right? Come find me on LinkedIn and debfetter.
[00:31:46] Deb Feder: com. And you go there, you can schedule a call with me, you can jump on my newsletter, just reach out. Always open for the conversation.
[00:31:53] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on the show. I’m so happy that A, we met, and B, that I was able to get you on the show and have this conversation and allow you to share your wisdom.
[00:32:00] Steve Fretzin: And you’ve been doing this a long time. You’re one of, you know, old school people like me, if you will, you know, been in this for a while. But just thanks again. I really appreciate you and appreciate you coming on. Thanks Steve for having me. Yeah. And thank you everybody for spending time with Deb and I today.
[00:32:13] Steve Fretzin: Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways. I have my usual page of notes from the takeaways that I heard from Deb and I today. All right. And again, Continuing to bring you great content to help you be that lawyer Confident organized and a skilled rainmaker take care of everybody. Be safe. Be well talk again soon
[00:32:33] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Visit steve’s website Fretzin. com For additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business developments Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes