Deb Knupp: Duelling Banjos of Business Development

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Deb Knupp discuss:

  • The six viable selling styles that work for all lawyers.
  • Relationship building no matter your personality or sales style.
  • Time management, even when it is crazy busy.
  • Helping others to help yourself.

Key Takeaways:

  • There is not one singular way to do business development and become a rainmaker.
  • Introversion and extroversion are not correlated to sales success – the willingness to take action is.
  • You can activate business development seeds during your standard client interactions.
  • Pick your channel and do it with excellence.

“There are multiple paths in which lawyers can participate concretely, playing to business development strengths. If you don’t seemingly have that gregarious networker personality, the great news is that’s only one of six viable selling styles that absolutely work.” —  Deb Knupp

Connect with Deb Knupp:  


Email: [email protected]


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LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.




Narrator, Deb Knupp, Steve Fretzin


Deb Knupp  [00:00]

98% of the people that we assess, have a selling style for which they have a natural strength, which by the way often blows people’s minds. And it eliminates the ability to say, I’m not good at sales. The reality is there are multiple paths to participate in being great at business development.


Narrator  [00:21]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:43]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you appreciate my announcer voice today. I know dad does she’s like it to me is like that’s your announcer voice I like


Deb Knupp  [00:51]

totally announcer voice Teach me your ways.


Steve Fretzin  [00:56]

And now the Chicago Bulls do that all announcing thing. But listen, it is be that lawyer we are talking about how to get your business to the next level, how to be confident, organized, and a skilled Rainmaker. That’s what the show is all about. And you’ve already heard from my friend, Deb, and guess what you are in for a super duper treat today, we have one of the top players in the country in the world on business development for lawyers, as my guest today, she’s been doing it longer than me, I think right by a little bit. So let’s let me let me introduce step in but before that, I just want to bring up our quote of the day, which is you will never win if you never begin. And that is a Helen Roland American writer, she’s an American writer, quote. And for me, Deb, I think you will never win you’ll if you never begin as there are lawyers who just never begin to develop their own clients never begin to develop business. And they just they just hope that work continues to flow in. And I think a lot of lawyers come to us when it’s I don’t want to say too late, but like, they always say the same thing. I’m in my mid 50s or early 60s. And geez, if I had started doing this when I was in my 40s. So what is you you never you never win if you never begin? What does that mean to you?


Deb Knupp  [02:08]

First of all, I’m going to echo I have never heard an attorney ever say Man, I wish I would have waited longer to get started on this business development jam. I mean, there is always a moment of regret. And I think it’s understandable. I think there’s a a fairly narrow sense of what great business development looks like. And if we don’t feel like we live into this ideal image that we have in our minds, that can really stop us from having the courage and the conviction to take take action. And so what I love about business development with lawyers is that there is not one right way to do it. And the myth of thinking that there’s a singular way to be a rainmaker or that there’s a certain prescription or recipe that you need to follow, otherwise remain inactive. It’s just totally a myth. And I can’t wait, Steve, we’re gonna continue to give real evidence on how to bust that myth. So that the opportunity to begin simply means even if it’s a messy first step in that it’s the active activation engagement that will make all the difference in the world.


Steve Fretzin  [03:02]

Yeah. And to catch everybody up, Devin up is the managing director of growth play. How long have you been doing business development for lawyers, because I’m around 13 years in 1413 or 14 years. And you’ve got me beat by a bunch?


Deb Knupp  [03:15]

Just a few? Well, Steve, we started in 2001. But if I’m being in true disclosure, it wasn’t until 2002, until we did our first law firm gig. And so I’ve had the great pleasure for the last 20 years, working in the space of professional services, principally mostly with law firms, teaching lawyers how to activate authentic relationships, and being more generous and others centered into problem solving. And by doing those things, creating conditions where the business development or selling feels like an act of service, I can say that lawyers were not an original part of the vision. But once I understood the great potential that lives within the practice, and how much the world needs lawyers to be exceptional, it was a really easy path to choose this as a primary focus and target market. And what a blessing. You know, it’s been for two decades now.


Steve Fretzin  [04:06]

And I’ll tell you something interesting that I found, because my background was working with with entrepreneurs and sales teams, okay. And when I worked with a salesperson who had 10 years of sales experience, it was like a whiteboard that had scribbles all over it. And I had to essentially erase all of that past scribbling it to get it clean, so that I could then instruct on proper process and ways to do things in a more efficient way. Lawyers I feel for the most part, are like a whiteboard that has nothing on it. Right? It’s almost a clean slate. Do you find that to be the case?


Deb Knupp  [04:37]

I do. And I think often we think that business development is all about the methods, you know that we get really dialed in on what are the tactics that I need to engage in order to see business, but I’m sure you agree with me it’s really backing up two steps. If you don’t have a clear mindset and even how to think about business development. You wouldn’t have to have a perspective even what to put on that whiteboard. I also think Steve I’ve really found is that when lawyers can see themselves as value, as you know, and to message, you know what it is that they bring to the world that is in service to a client need or client problem, when you can get the mindset and the messaging, right, then the methods are fairly easy to add to the whiteboard. So good news, not a lot of erasing, challenging news, not always clear where to start, when it comes to think how to think about this, and really how to package yourself as an offering.


Steve Fretzin  [05:25]

Well, that’s going to launch us right into our main topic today, which I’ve done with a few other a few other coaches called Dueling Banjos of business development. So what I thought we would do to have some fun today would be to talk about some of the toughest challenges that lawyers have in mindset, growing business, staying sustainable, and continuing that branding and growth. And then let’s go back and forth and try to give some real tactical advice and language and whatnot to try to try to construct. And hopefully, if you’re listening, this is an opportunity to either take out a piece of paper or don’t it’s your if you’re driving dolt, and let’s it really consider that that there are two people sharing with you things that you may not have thought of, or that you may not have come up with on your own. So let me start off by asking what do you what do you see as one of the top challenges that you’re seeing every day? As it relates to lawyers who who would like to get into business development, but haven’t yet or that have, but haven’t maybe figured out some of the best ways to do it?


Deb Knupp  [06:24]

Yeah, so I’ll start with the myth of the Rainmaker, I alluded to this a moment ago, I think we unnecessarily have an idea about what great sells looks like. And we often ascribe lots of personality traits. Sometimes we ascribe gender or socioeconomic status or just background or pedigree. And we will often over inflate these attributes in the belief that if I don’t possess them, I can’t be great at selling. And so when when we look at, particularly the use of talent analytics, one of the coolest things that we’ve discovered principally over the last seven years, is that there are actually multiple paths in which lawyers can participate concretely playing to business development strengths. And so if you don’t seemingly have that gregarious networker, backstabbers personality, the great news is that’s only one of six viable selling styles that absolutely work. And so what we try to do is help people see how to find their best fit. So if you’re not the activator style, can you be an advocate, someone who’s really excellent at mining, for new opportunities with existing clients. It’s not a passive role, but something that’s activated in advocacy for clients, you got Alliance builders, which are great referral exchangers as a selling style course you see the style of educators, people who can bring subject matter expertise to live and utilize that to originate and attract business. We’ve certainly seen integrators, individuals who seem really effective at cross selling more holistic or enterprise solutions. And these tend to be folks that have the ability to go from selling me to selling we. And then lastly, the six styles in inventor style, where sometimes being able to see around a corner or invent a solution to a problem, perhaps that hasn’t even emerged. How do you bring that to life in a way to attract opportunity of these sort of six ways of engaging, we have found that everyone 98% of the people that we assess, have a selling style for which they have a natural strength, which by the way, often blows people’s minds. And it eliminates the ability to say, I’m not good at sales. The reality is there are multiple paths to participate in being great at business development.


Steve Fretzin  [08:33]

Yeah, I love that. And just out of curiosity, is that is that a white paper? Or is that an article that you have on the six styles that you would be willing to share?


Deb Knupp  [08:42]

Absolutely, in fact, it’s really the outgrowth of we use a proprietary sales effectiveness assessment called Chaley. And Charlie has been in the sales effectiveness space for more than 50 years, they’ve assessed more than a million people. So you can imagine how wacky it was when we said, hey, we want to assess lawyers in selling, they’re intrigued, and ours really produced some really fantastic talent analytics. So absolutely. We’ve got some insights available on growth, and certainly happy to unpack some of the additional skills and attributes that go with the selling styles that can be validated with data, that that leaves it pretty hard to argue at when it comes to strengths. Really interesting.


Steve Fretzin  [09:21]

And I’ve been doing disc assessments for probably 20 years, and maybe not quite as is target is what you’re saying. But a lot of it comes down to introvert and extrovert, right and task and people and we’re someone falls on that on that behavioral scheme. And a lot of the introverts are the ones that feel most most apprehensive to do business development, because that’s just not in their nature at all. And that’s not to generalize people into that category, but the gist is is like you’re an IP attorney who’s highly technical, and you know, you like the details and you’d like to sit at your desk and crank out work. And here you know, we’re saying, hey, go out and get business and there’s no doubt. Right? Well, it’s


Deb Knupp  [10:04]

well, the DISC assessment, I want to just put a plug in for it what it’s a fantastic way of not only increasing self awareness, but really understanding interpersonally what it looks like to act actively engaged to build trust to find common ground. I think assessments have a way of bringing those things to live. When I can also tell you that what we’ve learned from our chat live data is that introverts and extraversion actually are not correlated to ultimate sales success. What is correlated is the courage to take an action. So someone who sees themselves perhaps as more likely to be successful, will often put themselves in more selling situations. But the good news for all the introverts who may be listening in today, is that being an introvert or an extrovert, you have the exact same access to tap into strengths that are correlated to sales performance is just a function of figuring out how to dial in based on the strengths and not allow your mindset to be the limiter.


Steve Fretzin  [10:57]

Let me add one more point to this. And that is it used to be in the old days and we go back 1020 30 years that it was the gregarious Managing Partner Rainmaker glad hander guy that was outrageous that would ask would never be afraid to make the ask that was the person that got all the business that actually turned some people off today, right, that those kinds of behaviors maybe aren’t as acceptable as they were years ago. So that’s an opening or an opportunity for the introverts to take that courage you mentioned and then add process and language and intention and courage and all that, and they actually can step up and be the new rainmakers. And I see that on a regular basis.


Deb Knupp  [11:35]

Yeah, without a doubt, you know, I love what you’re describing to us. When we think about historical perspectives on what may have worked. It’s like anything, you know, as the world has evolved, as we begin to see the generational shifts, there is no substitute. And authentic relationship building like actually caring is not an attribute of extraversion or introversion. It’s a capacity to suspend your self interest in a way that you can be in service to others. In some cases, the less grandiose and gregarious you are, the more likely you are to be able to listen and figure out how to help others get what they want. And we both know when that occurs, you almost always get the payback in spades.


Steve Fretzin  [12:13]

Yeah, you’re spot on, as usual, as usual. Alright, so I’m gonna, I’m going to bring up the second topic of our Dueling Banjos. And that is time management. And the idea that there are attorneys billing 2022, plus 100 hours a year. And right now, and this will probably post sometime in late December, early January. But we’re talking about some of the biggest years lawyers have ever had in the history of their law practices or firms. Yet, we’re saying wait a second, you also need to do business development. So what are the like top tip or two that you’re giving and in that you’re having to work with lawyers on to help them figure out how to get the time, make the time, commit the time to do business development and make that a part of their life? Yeah, so


Deb Knupp  [12:56]

I couldn’t agree more. One of the biggest competitors to business development in for a lawyer is not another law firm, it is often their schedule. And so I think there’s two ways I’ll respond first is really discerning rhythm. It’s like anything, if you understand your natural proclivity to be planful, to be strategic, to be focused, it’s like anything’s like, what we measure, what we plan for are the things that we tend to stick to. And so often, business development is thought to be the thing we bolt on. And that we have to find the prescribed time in which we’re going to, quote, do the activity. And in some cases, when we approach it, like it’s a bolt on, it sometimes comes with the extra weight of guilt and shame, that sense of like, it’s the necessary evil, it’s what I have to do. So one strategy is to recognize that it’s like fitness, it’s sort of making priority and planning. So rhythms can be everything from doing a little bit of client development or business development focus on a daily basis, carving out a meaningful predictive time, usually, it’s mornings where you can add it into the ritual, we call that a base hit rhythm, we also find that sometimes professionals really like to think of business development as a Monday, Friday activity, and I affectionately refer to those folks as the sandwich people, you know, you engage Mondays and Fridays and think about marketing and business development, for the most part, and I have to say, myself included, when business development takes on its strategic planning priority, it’s often from a place of push, where you just carve out sacred time, and you have a way of pausing long enough as if you’ve got a meeting with myself, in order to say, Who do I need to lift my head? Where do I need to put my attention and time? So that’s, I think, from a time just pure time management is rhythm selection. I think the other piece is what is even more important, and I’m confident you’ve got some perspective on this, too, is this recognition of business development as you’re going? You see, when you look at when you’re delivering 2020 200 hours, by and large, you’re spending a lot of energy interaction and engagement time delivering value delivering services to clients. And so if you can have a reimagined relationship with what it means to do client experience, you You can activate business development benefits by how you’re communicating and planting seeds as a part of your regular routine ketchups. When somebody says What’s up or what’s new, what else are you working on it, our ability to forecast or plant seeds for what’s around the corner can be really powerful. And that happens as we’re going. It’s also though an opportunity to really see exceptional ways to make your clients lives easier. So there’s no such thing as just a status report or just a status call. If you can frame your deliverables in a manner which would allow your clients to have even greater value for what’s next, you’re going to endear emotional connection, loyalty. And ultimately, you’re going to build a level of super fandom that will allow the repeat business or the new referral to come or naturally. So time is really about being planful and prep and strategy. And it’s also to think about your time and business development as you’re going


Steve Fretzin  [15:52]

  1. Are there things that people are that that lawyers are inserting into these client interactions, from your perspective that enhances the ability for clients to say, oh, you know what, I’ve got another general counsel at another company I’d like you to meet or they haven’t to be proactive to have that dialogue and have an opening to say, hey, there are probably other general counsel’s like yourself that I could be adding value for, like with you, but the door just seems more open than it did before.


Deb Knupp  [16:18]

Yeah, well, I think you’ve modeled it really well. I think it starts with being able to declare the things that you’re passionate around the the dreams and interests that you have. And so when you have the kind of dialogue and relationship and when you’re a client, and you’re exchanging the vision or goal or the aspiration or dreams, I think having a well articulated dream, and then seeking the advice, the input the ideas from your clients, you know, if you were me, and my dream is to be more visible, and the Food and Ag industry, if you were me, what would you be doing in that space, your food and ad client is going to have a meaningful level of advice and perspective, that can certainly steer you in a way that may lead to more visibility, higher reputation building, or in some cases, more access to introduction. So I think it’s really important that messaging and then declaring those streams and making it visible, I think is really where it starts, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [17:11]

Yeah. And if the client has become your friend, and you’re having regular ongoing conversations, and you get into talking about families and life and holidays, or whatever it might be, it’s not a transactional relationship. It’s it, there’s something there and they appreciate you and your work. It there’s, there’s a minimal level of ask that can accomplish a great deal. And then I think the other piece of it is lawyers sometimes make the ask, in a very subtle way. And sometimes it doesn’t quite hit the mark. Right? So it’s like, they’ll say, Yeah, sure. If anything ever comes up, I’ll let you know, in the reality is that there are things that may need to be sort of dug out of that. And so one of the things that I instruct my clients on is to say, Well, do you mind if I just take a moment and coach you because I have some very specific things that I’m looking for that you may be able to assist me with? So can I just talk you through that? And they say, oh, yeah, sure. What do you have in mind, and now you’re able to actually work them through the context, the assistant GCS that have worked for him or her that have moved on to other companies in such that where the relationships are strong, and they’re going to, they’re going to take that recommendation to meet that great lawyer because of the way it’s being laid out?


Deb Knupp  [18:18]

Well, you again, I think what you’re just describing, again, is helping others help you. It’s almost the Jerry Maguire model of saying, you know, help me help you by being as specific as you’re describing, so that when a person has a general willingness to refer recommend, but doesn’t necessarily have the specifics of what to be looking for, what are the triggers? What are they were places for issue spotting, I think those are the kinds of education exchanges that can make a difference. I also though, I think sometimes it’s just the courage to let a personnel that you’re excited about being more helpful to them or their business. So you’re saying I would, I would love to explore, if there are additional ways that I or my firm could be bringing value to you, you know, can we explore where that could be possible? So what you’re doing is you’re asking for the opportunity to explore, you’re not asking them to give you another file or give you another piece of business. And I think it’s that asking for, for the almost permission to explore gives them the client or potential friend or referral source, the ability to sort of discern how deep or how far they want to go in the name of being helpful. So I think we have to be courageous and making the ask but being blunt and saying, Give me more will you give me more business may not be the most effective way? Or when somebody offers to be a referral source? I think your idea of giving really some specific guidance, I think is such a huge gift to the referrer. Or to make it easier on him or her for sure. Just and


Steve Fretzin  [19:42]

just as an aside, Deb back to your Jerry Maguire reference may not make sense to say to your to your GC clients show me the money. Right.


Deb Knupp  [19:50]

I probably need to you know what, yeah, I think that’s when I think Jerry Maguire I think people do say show me the money. So I’m gonna reframe that and just say let’s just call it the Help me help you help help you Did


Steve Fretzin  [20:02]

you know are talking about what about someone’s the size of someone how much someone’s head weighs? What was that others a whole bunch of stuff anyway. So so the other thing I just want to mention before we move on from time management is, I think lawyers get overwhelmed with all the different things like you mentioned earlier with the different styles, I think that also comes into play with there are 20 3040 different ways to market and brand and do business development. And they try to do three or four or five of them halfway or poorly, instead of really picking one or two, and really being great at that one or two things. Like just be great at LinkedIn, right? Just do that one thing, do great posts, connect with people learn how to use it in an effective way, make that your 2022 thing. Don’t feel like you got to go do 20 different things, because I think that’s where people, people end up missing out.


Deb Knupp  [20:52]

Well, you know, Steve, I think sometimes traditional sales methodologies often encouraged, particularly if you think about a professional salesperson who’s in the zone of cold calling, you know, the zone of cold calling is cast his wider net, dial and smile so that you’ll get one yes, out of the night and 99 noes. I think, though, that has no applicability when it comes to professional services selling. And when you’re thinking about casting nets, people do think well, if I cast a wide net, I’m going to hope that I’ll catch more fish. But you know, as well as I do that, they’ll catch fish and a lot of other things that will distract them. And I think that’s when we get diluted and watered down. So I love your construct of picking your thing. And whatever that thing is do it with excellence. You know, I love the idea of picking your channel like LinkedIn. And that’s going to be the space where you want to pour yourself into a consistent presence. Another consideration can also be is pick a theme. A lot of the attorneys I’m working with right now I’m encouraging them to think about what’s the big idea for 2022? You know, what’s the space or place or conversation, a provocative question that they’re anchoring around the exciting trend, they’re really putting their energy around, and then linking every single marketing or business development activity to roll up to well, what are the groups that care about this big idea? What are the channels for communication? For visibility and content? How do we how do we look around that? So I think picking a lane, as you’ve described, and picking a theme, that singular focus then allows business development to be more joyful. And presumably, if you pick a thing you really like, you’re more likely to actually engage it and do it. So I think the first thing to consider,


Steve Fretzin  [22:24]

and that brings the whole time thing together, because I mean, there’s 100 things we could talk about around time management, but essentially saying that look, prioritize, pick your thing, become great at one or two things in just you know, time is money, literally for lawyers, so they’ve got to really be focused. And it just just, you know, do things well. So yeah, what so I’m gonna let you pick the last of our three challenges that you and I are going to that you and I are going to do dual banjos on so what what would you say is another big challenge that lawyers face every day and growing their books.


Deb Knupp  [22:59]

I think when we look at the intersection of climate experience and business development, I think it’s just a really hot topic. And there’s been a lot of energy placed of light in large part because we’ve been thinking about things like business continuity or, or transitions or succession planning. And so I have found that being really planful, about business growth and thinking about selling strategies, not just in the zone of the getting the net new business, but really thinking about your selling strategies to grow your existing relationships. And to guard. One of the constructs we teach at growth play is something we call the G three for selling strategies. And this really stands for guard grow and get. And when you put it in the context of existing clients guarding and growing activities really allow you to re originate the revenue you already have. And be in a position when you’re guarding and retaining and pouring into clients. Very often that get will come out of that that referral of that recommendation, or the reputational value that you may have in retaining a marquee client where others impute you must be pretty sophisticated or pretty great if you’ve got this marquee client. I think grow though, is maybe the area that gets overlooked, particularly when we think about cross selling. There’s not a firm or an attorney in the world that wouldn’t tell us both like of course, cross selling has got to be a high priority. And yet, what’s the impediment that’s getting in its way? I think it’s really two things. And when we look at existing clients, and how we already have the known, trusted, liked status, and a particular zone, I think it’s both how we introduce capabilities and people within our organization, as acts of service to our clients is going to be key. And then I think secondarily, it’s looking for how do we introduce new insights or innovation that can pique the curiosity of a client. So the client then says, Yes, I’d like to learn more. I want to be more educated, I want to be more engaged. So the invitation for that grow or crop Selling is so much greater. So I would just say from client experience, I think we often think of it is response time and quality of work, which by the way it is. And I also think it’s really generous, to continue to look for ways to solve problems for which you can get paid, that are in service to clients. So I think they’re linked one of them, they’re distinct.


Steve Fretzin  [25:17]

It’s interesting, the visual that I share with some of my prospective clients and existing clients is, imagine a table that’s right in front of you, and there’s millions of dollars piled on that table, and you’re walking around it all day, you could walk into it, but you don’t you walk around it, because it’s just whatever, it’s easier. But the reality is walk into it, because that’s where, especially if you’re at a full service firm, where the money is, and so, you know, anytime I say to a lawyer, you know, you can bring in business, get origination credit, and not have to do all that work. You can just feed your partners, and they go, Oh, that sounds wonderful. I go, Yeah, it is. And the happiest lawyers are the ones that do that. So it really is about trying to try to understand the strategies around cross marketing the questions to ask the approaches that are going to help facilitate that conversation. Are there are there a few questions that you’re willing to share around? What lawyers could ask their GC clients, their SEO clients, etc, that might open up those doors to identify more work?


Deb Knupp  [26:18]

Absolutely. So if you could think about, well, first of all, there’s a fine line between stalking someone and staying connected to them. Sure. So we need to start there. And the fine line almost always boils down to from a receivers perspective. And in this particular example, the receiver being the client. And when you think about what the client would find valuable, what the client would find genuine, what the client would find is an authentic reason to keep engaging or going deeper. And so one of the areas that we teach is that you can explore with your clients, three ends, you can explore with them, the end of what are the invitations that they would like to receive, that would be a value to them. And sometimes the end of an invitation may look like invitations to social opportunities, or entertainment opportunities or networking opportunities. Sometimes as those ends may also include invitations for their own sale, lease or professional development or even peer to peer connection or opportunity. So orienting yourself with your client to say what are the invitations that I need to put in the inventory that would be useful, and cultivating access or opportunity for that particular client? Think the second is the end of insights, asking your client what is it that are trends or following things they want to be paying attention to concerns that they have things that they find curious or opportunistic, when you understand the ins of insights that they’re paying attention to? Sometimes it’s business and professional and legal. And sometimes it may be on the interpersonal front, you know, the end of understanding how to navigate trains, transitioning children and becoming empty nesters and sending kids off to college or the end of insights and eldercare. Having a good inventory of ens of insights that would be useful to your clients can be hugely valuable. And then lastly, and I think this is probably the most direct and easy. Find out who they want to be introduced to, you can figure out the introductions that a client actually wants, whether it’s other professionals with other technical disciplines in your firm’s Soviet, but a lot of times they’re looking to cultivate their networks with introductions to other service providers, other like minded professionals, other industry leaders as they may be. And so when you can find the end of introductions and be that connector or facilitator, once again, now you’ve got three avenues to really explore open doors, create access, and ultimately may lead to billable work.


Steve Fretzin  [28:42]

Yeah, I don’t think there’s anyone listening, that’s going to argue that if you’re inviting your clients to things, you’re sharing insights, and you’re introducing them to quality people, that that relationship isn’t going to be five stars, right, and that they’re not going to be willing to reciprocate and take care of you. I mean that I love the three ends that is really fantastic. The insights, I think, is the one and all three of them I love but the insights one, Deb specifically, is hitting hitting a chord with a striking chord because the insights of what’s going on in the marketplace that the GC, the CEO, the client may not be aware of, might open the door for the cross marketing, because you’re sharing here’s what’s going on in COVID. Here’s what’s going on in labor and employment with with regulations, here’s what’s going on with Bitcoin and sec and all these things that the GC just isn’t thinking about. And you’re bringing it up and then right that opens up doors through questions to then create introductions within your firm.


Deb Knupp  [29:41]

You know what, Steve? And what else I want to just quickly amplify is the insights don’t have to always be technical or regulatory, or legal. Sometimes the greatest insights that you can offer are organizational, their employee relations, their talent experience, they are capital raising these It seems that certainly down the road may have a legal consideration or billable opportunity. But when you’re in the habit of benchmarking in service to your client, sharing the insights that will help them be more successful, holistically, not just in where you get paid. That’s the winner. And as you said, Five Star relationships across the border.


Steve Fretzin  [30:18]

While we are going to wrap up on that note, and again, if you’re listening to this podcast today, everybody and you’re not going nuts right now taking notes and thinking about how you’re going to implement some of this stuff. You’re crazy. This has been absolute gold. I’ve got a page of notes on my remarkable two that is not a sponsor, but I love my I’m showing Deb my remarkable too.


Deb Knupp  [30:38]

I love that. Oh, I love that, you know, ordered when Steve can’t wait.


Steve Fretzin  [30:42]

Oh my god, it’s so great. It’s so I have zero paper, Nan, and everything is here. Everything uploads it’s like okay, anyway, let’s move on to the three best stuff. Now. You are also a Chicago in like myself, however, you’re in a very different area than me. I’m in the north shore of Chicago, which is 20 miles north of the city. You are on the south side. You’re on the south side of Chicago.


Deb Knupp  [31:02]

I am I am. Well, it’s so fun. I’m in the South Loop. And the South Loop is one of the most awesome neighborhoods in the city of Chicago for a whole bunch of reasons were really close to like access, we can get to every major highway and thoroughfare secure in Chicago, easy access to 9094 to 90 luxury drive. We can get from anywhere we are commuter city urban space dream. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [31:27]

Now I know you lost your number one pick restaurant to the pandemic in the environment. But let’s go to number two, what’s your second favorite restaurant, the one that still exists that you love to go to that? If I come and visit you? I’ll take you out? Well, I


Deb Knupp  [31:41]

have to say hands down. And you know, I as I was reflecting on the restaurant question, I would have to say it to tie for number one now when I remembered what the restaurant is. Because here’s the thing. The South Loop is absolutely vibrant and thriving. And my absolute favorite restaurant to recommend is one called the Asian outpost, Hawaiian hideout. With all the rage that we’ve seen with Pokey, and a capacity to really see fusion cuisine where you have Asian cuisines to using with other disciplines. It is a hands down lights out best and it is a it’s a it’s a restaurant that’s a part of a larger Restaurant Group and so highly recommend a bow, which stands for Asian outpost Hawaiian hideout. And it’s in the South Loop. And it’s fantastic.


Steve Fretzin  [32:28]

I don’t know if you noticed this, I just wiped a little bit of drool from my left. Because I just hearing you talk about it. I was like, Oh, that is right up my alley. I absolutely love that. And what are people that are coming into Chicago? And I know we’re kind of in the wintertime coming into the wintertime. But what what are some of the things what’s the a thing that people should see in the South Loop or in the loop that you absolutely love? Well, the


Deb Knupp  [32:51]

South Loop is really well positioned to gain access easily to museum campus. And in particular, we are really just a stone’s throw from Adler Planetarium, the aquarium and the Field Museum. So I highly recommend if you’re coming in, you want to come into the South Loop. And think about getting the city pass that not only allows you access to these locations, Soldier Field, all of that sort of down at this end of the loop. But it really gives a way to have a taster for lots of different venues. And I will just say the Chicago Public Library, we’re really close to the Harold Washington library, you can actually check out passes to gain access to some of the greatest sights lakefront for arts and culture in history. I’d also be remiss if I didn’t plug that a guy’s legends, certainly pre COVID thriving blues scene. So just want to highlight that that’s in the South Lake neighborhood as well.


Steve Fretzin  [33:40]

Yeah, you know, people that come into Chicago, that’s that’s like, you know, all of the museums and all of the actions right on the lake front. So it’s like you’re getting a twofer. You’re getting all these amazing museums and highlights and then you’re also getting all this great lakefront scenery and beauty. Let me ask you, what are the locals in the South Loop into what have you guys been doing through this whole COVID epidemic and up to now?


Deb Knupp  [34:01]

Well, I think the South Loop is absolutely a neighborhood and community that is about people. And we are about pets. There are more dogs per capita in this neighborhood and hence more dog park areas where people with pets can come and convene and be together. I will also say that there’s a storied and rich tradition of this particular neighborhood that was rooted in inclusivity. And when you look at some of the challenges the city faces and age, socio economics, ethnicities, this has always been a neighborhood around inclusivity and taking care of people and then so there’s a fantastic tapestry of different different there’s different access points for everything. So if you like pets, and you’d like people, the South Loop neighborhood is a great destination


Steve Fretzin  [34:48]

got wonderful, wonderful and dead before we wrap up. If people want to reach out to you to learn more about you learn more about growth play and how you help law firms what’s the best way for them to do so?


Deb Knupp  [34:58]

Well, our website easy to find its growth And I can be reached at D nap at growth which is DK en upp at growth I welcome any outreach at anytime. I absolutely love to help lawyers who are up to things, and delighted to be a resources anytime.


Steve Fretzin  [35:16]

Yeah. And you’ve been just amazing. I mean, some people would say hey, wait a second Steve Debs a competitor of yours? What do you do in heaven or on your show? What do you guys being friendly for? Listen, we both have a clear understanding that there’s not enough of us, there’s a lot more of you than there are of us. And we need to we need to continue to collaborate and be friendly and have a mindset of, of openness and abundance. And I think that’s where you and I both kind of live. So I just, I just, I just think you’re wonderful. And I just think it’s so great that you that you were able to come on my show and share your wisdom and your in your mindset about about lawyers and business development and everything


Deb Knupp  [35:56]

will save, I can’t thank you enough for being so generous to share all of your amazing access and positive brand. And I do value that collaboration is what this is all about. So thank you for this. And congratulations on the great momentum and the exciting next steps for you as you’re getting ready to publish writers, your fourth book, really excited for your audience to get that access to really build on the great success you’ve already had. I


Steve Fretzin  [36:18]

appreciate that. And then I’ll share the title. This is a Fretzin first I’m sharing the title now on the show. It is called legal business development isn’t rocket science. Go. So how’s that on the nose? Right. That’s great. So that’s that but you’ll be you’ll be hearing and seeing a lot more about it. And thanks again. Deb I appreciate it. And you know, listen, everybody it is all about being that lawyer someone who’s competent organized a skilled Rainmaker. It doesn’t have to come naturally for you to understand that getting your own clients and living the life of your dreams isn’t that far away? You just have to have to Deb’s point, the courage, the mindset and really just the understanding that you can learn this stuff. And so whether you’re learning from dad myself, books, mentors, podcasts, any way you can get it right to have I mean, that’s the way to go. Suddenly,


Deb Knupp  [37:06]

no doubt. Absolutely. Thanks so much.


Steve Fretzin  [37:09]

Thank you and thank you, everybody, take care, be safe and be well we’ll talk to you again soon.


Narrator  [37:17]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes