In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Deborah Farone discuss:
- Using business development as a path to influence and autonomy
- Starting relationship-building early in your career
- Aligning marketing with authenticity and personality
- Deepening trust by focusing on long-term relationships
Key Takeaways:
- Business development gives women greater control over their careers, choices, and leadership opportunities. A strong book of business shifts power dynamics and opens doors that talent alone often cannot.
- Business development is most effective when it begins in law school, not at a partnership. Early relationships compound over time and prevent habits that isolate lawyers from future clients.
- The most effective business development reflects who you are, not generic networking scripts. Choosing methods that fit your interests builds consistency, credibility, and long-term momentum.
- Client loyalty grows from empathy, understanding, and sustained connection beyond transactions. Investing in existing relationships delivers greater impact than constantly chasing new clients.
“They say it’s five times more expensive to get a brand new client than it is to grow an existing client. So it’s a better use of your time.” — Deborah Farone
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About Deborah Farone: Deborah Farone is a strategic advisor, author, and speaker specializing in business development and marketing for law firms. She is the founder of Farone Advisors, where she helps lawyers build strong client relationships and sustainable practices. Deborah previously served as Chief Marketing Officer at Cravath, Swaine & Moore and Debevoise & Plimpton, and is widely recognized as a pioneer in legal business development. She is the author of Best Practices in Law Firm Business Development and Marketing and a frequent lecturer at law schools and legal organizations worldwide.
Connect with Deborah Farone:
Website: https://deborahfarone.com/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Attention lawyers, if you’d rather be the best kept secret in the marketplace right now, you may want to turn around and not listen to this episode. The ideas ahead could spark visibility, authority and brand power. Okay, that’s the warm up. Everybody enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:21]
You’re listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:44]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and welcome back to the be that lawyer podcast. We are your go to podcast. I think we’re one of the longest running legal podcasts. Now, I was just told that, by the way, I don’t know if that’s true, but I’m going to look it up as soon as we get through this. But I’m so excited that you’re here and with us today, we’re going to, wow, we’ve got another great show planned for you guys. I’ve got Deborah waiting in the wings. How are you?
Deborah Farone [01:05]
I’m fine. I’m glad to be here, Steve.
Steve Fretzin [01:07]
Yeah, I’m thrilled that you’re here. We had a lovely conversation, I, you know, kind of leading into this, and I was just so excited to have you. And I know we’re going to get into some deep, deep weeds today about what lawyers need to do to get it together and live their best lawyer lives, is that fairly on point.
Deborah Farone [01:22]
Absolutely, particularly women. And what we can do to help women?
Steve Fretzin [01:27]
You know what? The men can go suck an egg. How about that? Yeah, let’s just talk about women. You know, that’s fair.
Deborah Farone [01:33]
The information I have could help men or women, but I had women in mind for this.
Steve Fretzin [01:37]
All right, so if you’re a woman listening to this podcast, you’re in the right place. If you’re a man, you’re going to take away whatever you can take away. That’s okay, too. All right, so royal doll said the following, and we’re going to talk about our quote of the show. Here we go. And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you, because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don’t believe in magic will never find it ooh, kind of deep. I like it. So welcome to the show. And Deborah. Tell us a little bit about that quote.
Deborah Farone [02:06]
Oh, thank you. Well, that was a quote I used when I wrote my first book, and I had that as my inscription. I’m a big lover of royal doll who wrote Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and James and the Giant Peach and all the classics. But I think it really resounds kind of loudly that you need to be looking around and seeing what is going on in your environment, and not if you’re a lawyer, not just look at law, but look at other industries, look at other businesses, get to know your clients really, really well and keep your eyes open. So that was what that meant to me.
Steve Fretzin [02:41]
Yeah, it was really beautiful. And everybody, we’ve got Deborah Farone here. She is the CEO and marketing strategist at farone advisors. And give everybody a little bit of a, you know, how you came to be speech. And then we’ll jump into the weeds a bit on all of the subjects we have for today.
Deborah Farone [02:58]
Sure. Well, I’m a former chief marketing officer. I was Chief Marketing Officer of two wonderful law firms, Deb voice and Plimpton for about 14 years, and Cravath Swain and Moore for them about 14 years as well. So there’s a symmetry to it. And prior to that, I was at a management consulting firm, and really way back, I was at Ketchum public relations, so that that’s kind of my history. But I decided when I left Cravath that I really wanted to write a book. I had been offered the opportunity to do it, and I thought, you know, I’ll write a book, and I’ll see if this consulting works. And, you know, knock on wood. The day the American lawyer wrote that I was leaving and starting my own firm, I ended up getting calls, and so it’s just worked out really quite well.
Steve Fretzin [03:48]
Yeah, and you know, just because I have you locked in with me in this room, so we can’t get so I can’t get out or escape. Talk a little bit about what life is like as sort of a CMO at a big firm, like, you know, what’s that day like for you? Because I don’t know that most lawyers really know, and maybe I don’t even know fully what the day might look like for you.
Deborah Farone [04:09]
Well, if you’re at an international firm, it’s kind of around the clock, I admit. You know, it starts very, very early, and you may have your list of things that you need to get done based on a strategy, but there are always things coming up, whether it’s staffing, you know, issues, or it’s opportunistic. I mean, so much of marketing a law firm is opportunistic. Someone calls because they need a lawyer on a deal or a client is sued, and so they call. So you’re constantly working with partners and helping them and helping to guide them in whatever it is that’s on their desk that day. So it’s both short term and long term thinking, but it’s a great role to have. It’s fascinating. I highly recommend it.
Steve Fretzin [04:53]
Okay, all right. And then how did you sort of get triggered into not only your own consulting, but also. Like, you know, focusing on women. What was the impetus to focus in that arena?
Deborah Farone [05:03]
Well, the first book was not just on women, it was really on law firm marketing in general, which I thought was a great topic, because I was personally curious to know what all kinds of firms were doing in that area. But I kept on hearing both from my clients and from I do some coaching. I only coach about eight people a year, and I was hearing from them that the women were having a tough time developing business, that they weren’t quite sure how to do it, they didn’t feel they had the same role models, or they were getting invited to the same meetings as the men, and I thought the tools that they need to use are not very different than what men need to use, but they just haven’t had that exposure. So after asking people, was there a book on this, and trying to get friends to think about writing books on this, I decided, I think I better put my pen to paper and see what kind of book I could write. And it was a great opportunity to speak with women and men, actually, all over the world. I spoke with people in Africa. I spoke with people in Europe, North America, Asia. It was really just a fascinating project.
Steve Fretzin [06:12]
Yeah, and I’m noticing not only the trend in law schools, because I’m seeing the numbers and the stats go up, but also, and I may have mentioned this on the show, I work with about, you know, about 20 lawyers a year. That’s about my capacity. The last six that I signed up before the end of this year, all women. And so now it’s over 50% of my clients are women, which is remarkable, especially considering, if I go back even just a few years, it maybe was, you know, 10 or 20% so something’s going on in the water, something’s going on in the world where, you know, things are changing. The tide is shifting. And so with the research that you’ve done, what are the numbers tell us about women in law and leadership, and where they’re kind of, how they’re seeing things.
Deborah Farone [06:55]
Well, and also, just to use a sports analogy, I’m looking at the shirt in the background. Michael Jordan, yeah, yeah. You know, people need coaches. And I think they realize that, you know, there’s no shame in saying I need help, whether it’s in getting a coach to help them, you know, lose weight or be a better tennis player or be better at business development or better at management. And so I think there’s a whole new generation that realizes that. And if you look at the statistics, although there are more women graduating law school than ever before, and it’s actually over the 50% mark, we still have fewer than 25% of law firms that are really led by women. So there’s a disconnect there. And I think women, you know, want to be able to have the freedom that building a practice gives you. It also gives you a chance to be a firm leader. If you look at the leaders of the major law firms, most of them are great business developers. So being able to develop your own book of business does a lot of things. You know, it allows you that independence. It allows you more leeway in leadership, and it allows you to make decisions, not necessarily based on someone else giving you a client.
Steve Fretzin [08:12]
Yeah, and you’re preaching to the choir. I mean, this has been my, you know, my jam, my drum to bang for the last 18 years in legal has been, you know, you get control, freedom, independence in a lot of the things you want out of your career when you have your own clients, right? And you you can sort of dictate your future and stay, go, grow whatever it is you have that power. And without it, you know, you have the five lawyers that are sending you the work and then the 15 clients that are all, yeah, 20 people telling you what to do. It’s like 20 bosses getting back to like an office work. Office work. Was it odd the office? No. Office Yeah. Office work. Movie, yeah, too many bosses. So what are some things that when, I mean, when should lawyers and women’s start thinking about the business side of things? Business development, marketing, branding, networking? Is it happening at the partner level, associate level law school.
Deborah Farone [09:04]
I think as soon as someone decides they want to be a lawyer, they need to understand that their network is going to be very important to them. And so I would say even in law school, start thinking about people that you’re friends with and realizing that, yes, you want to develop them as friends, but you also want to build your reputation with them, because some of them are going to be potential clients. Some of them may hire you one day. Some of them may be colleagues. And so your reputation really matters early on. And the interesting thing is, I would speak with so many firm leaders that would say they had had clients for a long, long time that their largest clients were people that they knew in law school. So by all means, law firms need to start really training people as soon as they become associates at a firm. The worst thing that can happen is that a firm decides to wait and say, We’re going to wait until someone becomes a partner to invest in them. But then what happens? Is that lawyer has lost seven years of potentially developing business, and they’ve lost all these contacts that they could have been making, and they’ve built a bunch of bad habits they never sometimes leave their desk for lunch. You know, that’s not a good thing. You know, one of the people that I spoke with for the book was Brad Karp, who runs Paul Weiss and is just a brilliant business developer and a brilliant business person. And, you know, he emphasizes that building a practice really isn’t a mystery, and he talked about it in the book where he says, you know, young associates, he wants to encourage them to take the time to develop relationships within House counsel, and that these may be people that they’ll be working with for decades. So we are starting to hear more and more of that from firm leadership.
Steve Fretzin [10:48]
Yeah. I mean, I’m, I think I’m on the right track by saying this, that there are, you know, some men that are, like, outrageously out there, on whether it’s billboards, and then if we get into more like b to b type of spaces. You know, they’re speaking and they’re writing and they’re on Twitter and they’re just like putting themselves out there. And I got the feeling talking with some women, that they’re just not comfortable with that same type of putting themself out there approach that some men do. I’m just trying to get a handle on I think that’s changing, and I’d like that it’s changing. And one of my clients, Brian, if you’re listening, I love you. She’s not only putting herself out there, but she’s funny, and so funny, and she’s making her LinkedIn posts, like, super humorous. And you could just, like, totally feel her personality in the post. And I love it, because she’s just like, ripped the band aid off and said, I just, I’m going to be me, and I’m going to have fun with it, and I’m still going to give great information, but I’m going to do it my way, and I can totally see her thriving in that type of environment. But I’m not I’m not sure that many women are as comfortable with that as maybe some men are. And I don’t know if that’s just what I’m observing, or if that’s, you know what that is, but I’m seeing that start to the again, the tide turning.
Deborah Farone [12:01]
I think you’re absolutely right. You’re spot on. You know, from these conversations I had, and there were 60 different in depth conversations, so many of the women said that authenticity became very important to them, and what they meant not only was being authentic in selecting a practice area that they wanted to work in, but in finding marketing techniques that resonated with them, that made them feel comfortable. So for instance, there’s a wonderful woman in Italy at the law firm chiamente. Her name’s Anna Lisa reali. She does not love the idea of classically networking with people and taking people out who she doesn’t know, but what she does do, and in Italy, it’s it’s a very male dominated, still business world. She will invite clients with their spouses or with their families to join her for a wonderful dinner and then A Night at the Opera, because chiamenti, the law firm, is really almost across the street from La Scala. So she does that her clients have a wonderful Night at the Opera. She loves the opera. She trained as a classical musician, and so she’s doing something that’s authentic to her, rather than, let’s say, hosting a seminar where she’s only talking about labor and employment law. So she will do the speaking engagements and some other things, but her nights at the opera are a big hit with her clients and prospects. So I’m finding more and more women out there finding their own unique ways to market.
Steve Fretzin [13:32]
And but it sounds like also something that if you can find something that you enjoy that takes a little of the edge off, right, if you’re into opera, you do opera, right? If you’re into bourbon, you do bourbon. If you’re into, you know, rescue pets, you you build the, you know, world around maybe rescue pets and the people that also see value in that. And I do, you know, we adopted a cat recently, kidding. So, but i So, what is so then, I mean, interview, doing all these interviews, what were one or two other things that came out of it that really struck you as interesting.
Deborah Farone [14:04]
Well, I think you know this idea of authenticity again, you know whether it was the opera or there’s also a lawyer who was wonderful at Baker McKenzie, who does lots of walks and hikes with clients and prospects. So authenticity really is very much a part of how most of these women are marketing. The other thing was trust. You know, trust came up again and again, that building trust with clients is so vital. And these women, who are uber successful, who are the leaders of law firms, are really good at developing trust. And there have been studies, but not of law firms, as far as I know, but in areas like banking, where they can say that trust is created by three things. It’s having the skill and letting your clients know that you’re obviously very skillful at what you do, but it’s also being authentic, which we discuss. And also being empathetic. And it was very interesting, because when I spoke with Jamie McGowan at Morgan Lewis, these were all things that she talked about in how she built her business, how she works with clients, and how her lawyers build with clients, that they’re authentic, that they have great expertise, and that they’re very empathetic. And so I think the more and more people talk about it, think hopefully lawyers will learn that they can be a little bit more empathetic, that they need to be a little resilient about, you know, facing rejection and being able to show a little bit more of themselves. And then again, the long term issue, I think, was also maybe the third major theme, and we hit on that a little bit with the associates, but there were so many partners that said to me, the clients they had were clients that they had for many, many years. And so I think if we can get lawyers to think less transactionally about a client and more relationship oriented, and think about what value can we bring this company, this client, rather than, can we get their next m&a deal? I think that will be helpful in making inroads with clients.
Steve Fretzin [16:16]
With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises, mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today, hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year well and also in a time where being a great lawyer and responsive and providing quality work is sort of table stakes. You know, it’s what are we doing above and beyond that that’s generating that client loyalty and that trust and which can lead to referrals, which can lead to, you know, additional work and things like that. What are some things that you advise lawyers on to deepen the relationship and just, you know, make things sticky, because keeping a client happy and with you is so much better than having to always go out and chase after new stuff.
Deborah Farone [17:36]
Oh, absolutely. And they say it’s five times more expensive to get a brand new client than it is to grow an existing client. So it’s a better use of your time. You know, there are a number of things. And in fact, in the book, I have a list of about 25 things that you should know about every client. So you need to know, you know who the client is reporting to, who’s reporting to the client, what the political situation is within the company, all of those things are so important to really know and be empathetic about client. And also you want to service the client in more than one way. You know you want to be able to service the client in multiple practice areas. So leadership of a firm and compensation come into play when you talk about that, but Heidi Gardner does a great job of writing about how you need those lawyers to collaborate, because not only is it better service for a client when they have that bespoke service from multiple areas that are specialized but brought together for them, but they’re less likely to leave because it’s less likely that they can replicate that mix at another firm. And you want to have more contacts at your firm with the client. You don’t want to have just one partner who knows one person at the client you know. You want to have a number of them zippered up, as they say, you know, so that you’re really entrenched in a client, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [19:04]
I mean, if one person leaves and that’s all you have, the likelihood that you’ll stay at that company might be, you know, reduced dramatically. And then if you don’t go along with that GC or whatever, then why, you’ve lost both ends. I would add to that, you know, meeting FaceTime with your clients, to not just talk about the work, but to ask questions and be super curious and interested in what keeps you up at night, or what else can we do for you? Or, you know, you know, I know you’ve got your son, Jonathan, going off to school. How is that going? You know? And then maybe you find a way to add value outside of the work, right? A connection that you make, or I agree, yeah, just something that really tightens up. And I’ll give you, I’ve told this story, and I’m not going to give the whole story, but my father, the late great Larry, the lawyer, I think he did a really good job of developing those kinds of relationships, where he had friendships, where he had he was an advisor, conciliary to his client. It’s where, you know, to the degree where he did someone’s one of his clients, eulogies, right? I mean, such a deep relationship where no one would go to anyone else, other than Larry, because he was their trusted advisor on all things. So I think we have to find ways to be indispensable, now more than ever, and that’s a really big and important thing for lawyers who are just skating by on great skill, then you need to go, you know, three or four layers deeper than maybe you currently are.
Deborah Farone [20:28]
Absolutely and I bet Larry, you know, since he was a great relationship person, probably also had meetings with clients where he didn’t discuss business, where, you know, they would just have lunch. And I often tell the clients that I’ve coached, go have lunch with this person. Don’t discuss work. Get to know them as a person. See what you can do to help them, see what you can do to support them. And if they mention work, that’s great, but they don’t have to. And so I think those kinds of meetings and those bonding situations when they are authentic, could be so valuable.
Steve Fretzin [21:04]
Yeah, I’m going to throw a curve ball at you, because I think it’s something fun to discuss, and it’s something that I think happens not just to women, but to men and everybody in between. You know someone and have a great friendship with someone in a power position at a company, General Counsel, CEO, whatever it might be, and you’re in the and I’m doing the air quotes, the friend zone, right? You have maybe a number of high powered people that are your friends, that you’ve met over the years, but they’re not giving you a lick of work. Do you have a feeling or concept, or how you advise your clients to kind of get through and through that to the other side?
Deborah Farone [21:39]
I think so. You know, it’s, I’ve been asked this before. I think if your client is, you know, in need of a service that you happen to have and you have the capability, and you’re authentically excited about it, nothing is wrong with saying to a friend, I’d love to be able to help you with a project, yeah, or if you ever need help, I want to support you. I think it’s a matter of finding the right language. And if it’s a friend, you put it out there, you make these suggestions. If they take them, that’s great. If they don’t, that’s okay, yeah. But I think you can find a way, even in the friend zone, to be, you know, forward enough to say, I want to help you.
Steve Fretzin [22:19]
Yeah, the I love that. And the other thing that I would just add is, when you have a friend that you know, you talk about the kids, and you talk about your pets and talk about your trips and talk about all the social stuff, ask about their business, get more engaged and curious and interested. And maybe there’s something in the news, or maybe there’s something relevant that you could ask about, or a big acquisition they’re making, and you’re curious about it, and just start being more interested in their business and seeing if, maybe through asking questions and getting them to share, like, what are the challenges, or what are the upcoming goals and strategies and things for the company, that it might open up a door for you to for them to, you know, for maybe there’s a problem they share with you. It might be something you can handle and address. It might be something that you know, someone who can but I think it opens up a door that maybe hasn’t been opened before, and that may be another way in.
Deborah Farone [23:06]
I agree. And I think, you know this, I think business development for firms, and I keep on seeing this analogy in my head, and it’s why I even used a photograph of or an image of it in the book. I really do think of it like gardening, you know. And if anyone who gardens out there is listening to this, you know, you you plant seeds, and some of them take up root, and some of them grow and some of them don’t. Some of them might grow next year enough this year. Some of them might need a different climate, you know, or never grow at all. And I think with business development, although there’s some great systems out there, and there have been some very good books written, I don’t think there’s necessarily one perfect system for each person. I think you have to develop your own system based on what you’re comfortable doing and based on how much time you have. So for a client that has very little time, I might just say, okay, an hour a week, you’re going to be doing these five things now, and we agree that the hour a week for others, they can do it once a day because they really either they need to or they want to. Yeah, but I think it’s very individualistic.
Steve Fretzin [24:14]
Well, I think the three things that I like is, number one is, you know, what are you best at doing? Like, where’s your brilliance? By the way? The second thing is, like, who needs it, right? It’s got to be something that people are you know that there’s a market for. And then if you can throw in that it, you can find it in places you enjoy. And I’ll give you a quick example. I, um, I play a sport here in Chicago called Platform tennis, and it’s in the it’s on the East Coast, it’s in the Midwest, but it’s basically like pickle and racquetball together, but outside on a heated platform, and we play this Every winter, but I play against other private clubs in the north shore of Chicago. So I’m meeting CEOs, I’m meeting, you know, lawyers, I’m meeting CPAs and all kinds of interesting people. And I’m not saying that’s the only way I develop business, but it’s a way to have a lot of fun. And. Beat up on some people for an hour, hour and a half, which is great, share a bourbon with them in a meal and get to know them. And in the meantime, they’re maybe they’ve even heard of me, because I have a rep, you know, I’ve got a little bit of a brand out there, so great. And so I think finding things that you can just into your this is going back to the beginning of our conversation, like finding things like opera and finding things you enjoy, and knowing that people are that you could work with are in that area too.
Deborah Farone [25:26]
Absolutely, absolutely, like the woman who hikes, you know, I think it’s figuring out what you really enjoy. And it’s the same thing with building a practice. You know, I usually tell people think about it as a Venn diagram, so that one circle is the work that you really love, that you’re really good at, that you really enjoy, and you get there by thinking about, you know, what were the best days of my professional career, and really thinking about it, and then thinking about what the market needs and what your firm will support, and figuring out where’s the crossover between those two circles. So on board with what you’re saying, Steve, I think that’s absolutely right. Wow.
Steve Fretzin [26:04]
Thank you. All right, I’m glad we’re on the same day. I thought we would be. And then not the last question, but maybe second to last question is, there’s building a book of business, building your brand. There are also leadership opportunities, and how do women or what should women be thinking about, and why should they be stepping up and into leadership roles?
Deborah Farone [26:23]
Oh, I think it’s so important within a law firm to be seen as a leader and to be seen as capable, and to be able to also learn new skills, new management skills. I also think, as a related note, it’s important to get involved if you can on boards for things that you enjoy. So you know, whether it is children’s sports or it deals with medical issues or substance abuse, you know, to get involved in boards about issues that you care about, to learn leadership skills, to be able to see kind of how fiduciaries work on a board, whether it’s a you know, very often it’s a nonprofit board, but those connections are so valuable. And I think same thing is true inside of a firm. You want to make connections with people in other practice areas. You want to be able to cross serve your clients and know what other people are doing. So I think it’s it is important. I think we all have to be careful, you know, particularly women. I think there has been phenomenon where women are very often asked to serve on lots of different committees, because the committees are doing it with the right thought mind. They need a woman, you know, so they call a woman, but then the woman gets on the pro bono committee, and she’s on the HR committee and on the tech committee, and she doesn’t have time to develop business. So it is something that can cut both ways, that we just need to be aware of.
Steve Fretzin [27:49]
Yeah, saying no may be one of the most important skills and really qualifying things before you say yes, to make sure that it aligns with your goals for business development and growth and harmony and balance and the best that you can do. Really, fantastic. All right, my last question is always, what’s Deborah’s big mistake?
Deborah Farone [28:08]
I love that question. You know, my biggest mistake. Lived in the city for such a long time, in New York City for many, many years, and was just such an energy junkie, and really thought I needed this adrenaline. I did not want to move out of the city, but I finally did it. I have a, I admit, I have a tiny apartment in the city that I still keep, but I’m out in the suburbs now, and I realized, like it’s important to stay open, to change. I love it. I love going outside. I love having a dog. I love gardening, which I never thought I’d like and so I think learning how to change. I wish I had done it earlier, but I’m glad I did it.
Steve Fretzin [28:50]
Yeah, I knew I had to live in the city, but it was to meet the girl in my dreams and then drag her, kicking and screaming to the suburbs right to have a family. So that’s that played out. Let’s take a moment. Thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, rankings, io, crushing it for PI firms and, of course, the law her podcast with Sonia. Fantastic. Everybody. Check that out. I would love for you not only to give your digits Deborah, but also maybe just take 30 seconds and talk about your book coming out, breaking ground, how successful women lawyers build thriving practices that’s coming out like in the next month or so, right?
Deborah Farone [29:22]
Yes, it’ll be out January 7. I’m very excited about it. People can order it in [email protected] or it may be out by the time this comes out. So but it will also be available on Amazon as an audio book, if you can stand my voice, which I don’t know why anyone would really want that. But some people like audio books, and so.
Steve Fretzin [29:43]
You like hearing from the author too. We want to hear again of authenticity, right, right?
Deborah Farone [29:48]
That’s what everyone tells me, but the poor audio guy who had to record me, I was thinking, are you getting annoyed by my voice? So it’s available then, and the book was just, you know, it was great. Fun to do. It’s a mix of both these incredible stories of how people develop business and also the theory that I’ve learned either through teaching at various law schools or from teaching in general so and a lot of training programs that I do for firms and to reach me, the best way is I’m always on LinkedIn at Deborah Farone, and I’m also on Instagram at Deborah Farone best practices. And my practice is mainly working with law firms on business development, so developing training programs, helping them create marketing departments, fixing their practice areas or larger departments. So that’s really what I do.
Steve Fretzin [30:43]
Yeah. Well, it’s wonderful and very much needed again, you know, lawyers and law firms are, in many ways, you know, sort of, you know, behind where, you know, traditional businesses are ahead and they’re catching up. But it’s, you know, it’s always been a slow moving train. So it’s important for folks like you and I to step in and do some coaching and try to get people to the level they should be or should have been years ago. So we’re I appreciate you, and you’re doing an incredibly noble thing in an incredibly noble community. So thank you.
Deborah Farone [31:12]
Thank you. It was a pleasure to meet you, and I loved our conversation.
Steve Fretzin [31:15]
Yeah, wonderful. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Deborah and I for the last 30 number of you know, not only great ideas and tips, but things to really consider about you know what it takes to be successful in business development today and in the future. So thank you. Everybody. Take care, be safe, be well, and we will talk again soon.
Narrator [31:37]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.