Emily Witt: Advice to Lawyers From a Recruiter on Making a Move

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Emily Witt discuss:

  • How Emily’s Be That Lawyer tipping point started by rock climbing.
  • Top reasons lawyers are looking to move firms.
  • Advice for lawyers searching for a move.
  • One thing lawyers wish they knew.

Key Takeaways:

  • Many lawyers feel they are in the dark in regards to their career progression.
  • During the pandemic, we saw that many lawyers do enjoy being around their colleagues and getting feedback from their coworkers and senior lawyers.
  • Some lawyers may not need a book of business to move, but for most attorneys, it is a point of leverage and strength in a move.
  • When it comes time to make a move, many lawyers do not understand how big their book of business needs to be, even when they believe it is comfortable already.

“Often lawyers are not aware in law school of what the whole legal landscape looks like, particularly where a lot of law schools give a very siloed view of the law firms that are out there. They might not be completely familiar with the fact that there are boutiques out there and that there are different ways to practice law, and how to get to those different junctures in your career.” —  Emily Witt

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Episode References: 

About Emily Witt: Emily Witt is a dedicated legal recruiter with over 20 years of experience, both on the law firm side and the agency side. She began her legal career at Wachtell, Lipton Rosen & Katz, where she was the Senior Recruiting Coordinator. Emily took a leap of faith in 2016 to work for a search firm and now places attorneys into roles in law firms and in-house companies. Her passion for women’s advancement in tech and healthcare advocacy fueled her desire to specialize in those areas. Emily hosts a podcast, Beyond the Legal Lens, that helps open the door to jobs in tech and health law. She also has a platform, the Advocate’s Mic, that highlights mission-driven attorneys who are creating impactful initiatives in their communities.

Connect with Emily Witt:  

Website: https://www.beyondthelegallens.com/

Show: https://www.beyondthelegallens.com/podcast

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilywittslegalpath/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/emily.witt.104/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100085002114417

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilydwitt

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthelegallens

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, listen up real quick. Before we begin the show, I’d like to present my Be That Lawyer challenge. If you’ve ever wondered how much more you could be making as an attorney, I challenge you to meet with me for 30 minutes to discuss your law firm. If I’m unable to identify ways to bring in more business for you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for our time together.

[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: I’m just that confident. Go to Fretzin. com to accept this challenge and hope to meet you soon.

[00:00:29] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:52] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody. Welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I’m so happy that you’re with me and my guest, Emily, today. We are going to have some fun. We’re going to have some laughs. We both feel like we’ve been shot out of a cannon. So, uh, and that was because I took Pilates this morning. We love our Pilates, don’t we, Emily?

[00:01:07] Steve Fretzin: Yes,

[00:01:08] Get Visible: so much so, I became an instructor. So. Yeah,

[00:01:12] Steve Fretzin: it’s meeting a handful of women and that’s okay, right?

[00:01:15] Emily Witt: Yeah, no, uh, and in addition, I’ve found that the more men do it, The more it becomes a thing for men, I think I’m starting to see my yoga classes. Become a lot more mixed and I’d love to see that with Pilates.

[00:01:35] Emily Witt: In fact, as a teacher, some of my most dedicated students were my students that are, that are men. Uh, as soon as they realized that they liked it, they, they became very obsessed with it. So

[00:01:48] Get Visible: I hope that

[00:01:48] Steve Fretzin: Jazan. Like a friend of mine won’t come with me, but he had a, did Pilates with like a group of other men and that was okay.

[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: So like, I think there’s some comfort level that. Some people need to have, and of course, I’m, I’m more mature than him, so I can handle any, any situation, right? That’s fine. Uh, of course. Yeah, of course. But, uh, listen, we, we have a lot to cover today. Um, before we get started, I just want to remind everybody, um, you know, Fredson really focuses on two things.

[00:02:14] Steve Fretzin: We work, uh, with lawyers over a number of years, uh, and actually over a lifetime of their career, helping them to grow their, uh, business development and their law practices. Thank you. Uh, so that they can just be sustainable throughout a career. And of course, we lead people into these peer advisory roundtables where we take all of our assassin attorneys and rainmakers and folks that just are crushing it that want to stay on top of things and allow them to be in a peer advisory group with other smart, intelligent, wonderful rainmakers and just talk shop.

[00:02:42] Steve Fretzin: And I bring in amazing speakers and we have a lot of fun in those. So if those are of interest to anybody, please don’t be shy about reaching out. I do a free 30 minute. Uh, sort of consult where we talk through what your, uh, needs are, what you’re looking to accomplish. Most importantly, identify the gaps, identify the areas where you may not be hitting the mark.

[00:02:59] Steve Fretzin: And sometimes Emily, what I find is that there’s a whole bunch of money sitting on a table in front of somebody. It could be cross marketing, could be they haven’t leveraged their client base and they’re just like, they just don’t know what to do or how to even start. And so it’s, it’s like there’s, you’ve got the million dollar book.

[00:03:13] Steve Fretzin: It’s right in front of you. You just, you just need some help to get there. And I love those situations because it’s, it’s certainly easier than someone who’s like starting from nothing. So, uh, anyway, that’s a little bit about that. And, um, as we love to do, Emily, we’d love to start with our quote of the show and let’s go through yours, which is which Wonderful.

[00:03:29] Steve Fretzin: And I’ll let you kind of explain it after I get through it. It is only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye. And who’s that? That’s, uh, Antoine the saint. You finish it. Exupery.

[00:03:42] Get Visible: Yes.

[00:03:43] Emily Witt: Yes. From the, from the Little Prince. So a little backstory that is a book that

[00:03:51] Get Visible: my father read to me as a child.

[00:03:54] Get Visible: In fact, that

[00:03:55] Emily Witt: was one of his books and the reason he

[00:03:58] Get Visible: studied French growing up. So

[00:04:02] Emily Witt: he passed that

[00:04:03] Get Visible: book on to me and I, I loved the

[00:04:07] Emily Witt: story. I, there

[00:04:08] Get Visible: was also a movie when I was younger. That you could find on rare channels

[00:04:16] Emily Witt: and what speaks to me about the quote

[00:04:20] Get Visible: is

[00:04:21] Emily Witt: how I conduct my life and essentially it’s saying be who you are and also look at people for who they are, not what’s on the out, not what’s on the outside, but what’s on the inside.

[00:04:38] Emily Witt: And I think that’s such an important moral lesson when interacting with everyone who you meet, especially in a world where we’re so title focused and

[00:04:51] Get Visible: achievement focused and to

[00:04:54] Emily Witt: recognize someone for their inner going back to Pilates

[00:04:58] Get Visible: core. Which Steve, I’m sure

[00:05:00] Emily Witt: you will understand that reference, but it’s really taking someone for who they are

[00:05:07] Get Visible: and accepting them for that.

[00:05:09] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I love that. And, uh, I think we, again, we’re living in kind of a divisive, divided world, and we have to really just look at. You know, when people and go to the, yeah, go to the core and go to, to what, you know, what makes them, you know, who they are and appreciate the, the, the goodness as opposed to the fault, the faults and the flaws.

[00:05:27] Steve Fretzin: Uh, really great. So Emily Witt, you are not only the, uh, podcast host of Legal Lens Podcast, but you’re also the managing director of Whistler Partners. And that’s a, that’s a recruiting firm, right?

[00:05:40] Emily Witt: Correct. Yes, it is a legal search firm. I happen to live in New York, but our search firm services.

[00:05:48] Get Visible: Across the United States and and some international

[00:05:51] Steve Fretzin: clients as well.

[00:05:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And how’d you get into that space rock climbing? Okay I was not expecting that

[00:06:00] Emily Witt: You gotta hit that with

[00:06:00] Steve Fretzin: a rock inside

[00:06:01] Emily Witt: his work for the journey I’m a world of surprises

[00:06:04] Steve Fretzin: Steve, but you go on your head and you decide I’m gonna work. That’s what happened to me

[00:06:08] Emily Witt: Yeah, exactly. I Didn’t know what I wanted to do with myself. This was a Early 2000s and I had just quit my job in book publishing and was rock climbing at a wall in New York City and I was exploring my next career opportunity and it was the market was good at that time and it was a matter of figuring out what I wanted to do and I had a very open mind.

[00:06:43] Emily Witt: In terms of my exploration process, I was, it was a self discovery. I went to a liberal arts school. And so in order to focus in on specific jobs. It was a lot of trial and error. And I had a climbing partner at this particular

[00:07:01] Get Visible: rock wall who

[00:07:03] Emily Witt: was an associate, a junior associate at a law firm called Pravats, Wien and more.

[00:07:09] Emily Witt: And for a lot of your listeners. That’s a very prestigious firm and she said to me, there are a million and one law firms in New York City. Have you ever thought of going into legal recruiting? I was exploring some angle of human resources, not really knowing what the landscape looked like. And she put me in touch with one of her, one of her colleagues that happened to be a recruiter told me about the industry.

[00:07:37] Emily Witt: Uh, explain to me that there weren’t any jobs openings at Cravath, Swain Moore, but there was a recruiter, a well known recruiter for

[00:07:46] Get Visible: recruiters,

[00:07:47] Emily Witt: and she had me interview at a few law firms, and I also did some outreach on my own. And I, as I went through the interview process with my open mind, I thought, wow, this is really what I want to do.

[00:08:01] Emily Witt: I enjoy this type of environment. And I had lots of interviews and one of them was at the law firm of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Kat. And I decided that if this law firm offered me this position, I was going to take it. It was. One of the few decisions in my life where I really didn’t have to think a lot about it and that was probably One of the best decisions I’ve ever made professionally.

[00:08:31] Steve Fretzin: It sounds it sounds like a lawyer tipping point to me Yeah, absolutely. If you don’t mind me putting it in my own words But absolutely, you know, we all have those moments where we get, you know a path, you know, right? What path are you gonna take? You know, starting a business or getting into business with someone else or starting a new career in a new industry.

[00:08:50] Steve Fretzin: And it’s very exciting. It’s a little scary too.

[00:08:53] Get Visible: Oh, yes. I was, I was very nervous on

[00:08:57] Emily Witt: my first day

[00:08:59] Get Visible: and that first month I knew how much I would enjoy it. Yeah. And, and it was

[00:09:09] Emily Witt: extremely difficult and challenging. But I felt invigorated by the work environment. It fortuitously, I started in April. And for those of you who are familiar with summer programs at law firms.

[00:09:24] Emily Witt: That’s when they usually start. So I did get to do a little bit of the preparation for our incoming summer associate program and then had the luxury of attending all these events as a 24 year old, not having much exposure to law firms and. I’m doing a lot of things going out to dinner, planning events.

[00:09:45] Emily Witt: I mean, there, there was a lot of work involved,

but

[00:09:48] Get Visible: I did read the benefits. Of law firm summer associate programs

[00:09:53] Steve Fretzin: for sure. And let’s get into the weeds on this because there are law firm managers, uh, managing partners and such that are listening to hear some advice. And there are actual lawyers listening that are wondering, you know, what, you know, maybe they’re in a position to move and, or maybe just people are curious, like what’s happening in the industry.

[00:10:10] Steve Fretzin: But let me start off with this. Why would a lawyer want to leave a firm? What are the, what are the kind of the main, like top three reasons that lawyers are looking to move?

[00:10:24] Emily Witt: Number 1, I would

[00:10:25] Get Visible: say is for either a reputation

[00:10:30] Emily Witt: increase or what we would call a brand increase. Usually, that would

[00:10:36] Get Visible: come along with a higher salary when someone is looking for…

[00:10:42] Get Visible: An upgrade,

[00:10:43] Emily Witt: so to speak, we would also see a situation. This would happen further along in an attorney’s career where the attorney is not getting enthusiastic signals about the

[00:11:01] Get Visible: possibility of making partnership.

[00:11:05] Steve Fretzin: So maybe they don’t even know like what the qualifications or criteria are. I mean, I’m finding that.

[00:11:11] Steve Fretzin: Lawyers aren’t asking questions and they’re not getting the details or it’s not available to them or made readily available to them. The transparency is limited. Actually, yes,

[00:11:20] Emily Witt: that is 100 percent correct because they feel that they are in the dark when it comes to where they fall in their career. As we’ve learned a lot from the pandemic, a lot of attorneys actually like being around their colleagues and learning from their colleagues and getting constructive feedback.

[00:11:41] Emily Witt: I see this particularly in the younger generations who are sort of used to that type of upbringing. From their own caretakers, this feedback giving,

[00:11:54] Get Visible: uh,

[00:11:54] Emily Witt: society. I think, for example, I’m Gen X and we saw a lot less of that as a latke kid, right? So you have the younger generations that are constantly wondering how they’re doing and if they’re in the right direction and how do I get home from school and that type of mentality.

[00:12:10] Emily Witt: If they’re not getting that proper. Exposure to what their future looks like that can be very unsettling to anyone, even myself, where you just don’t know where you’re going. And it’s not necessarily handholding. But it’s guidance, and I would say 1 of the other reasons. To note, and the reason why I’m bringing this up is that we’re having to see a lot of this lately is that.

[00:12:37] Emily Witt: A lot of groups are moving practice areas. We’re seeing a

[00:12:40] Get Visible: lot of movement within the law

[00:12:43] Emily Witt: where partners are moving more. And what happens is they’re bringing their groups with them. And so that can often shake up the practice group once that firm merges. So it does go back to this question of where am I and where do I stand?

[00:13:03] Emily Witt: But often that shakeup can cause some of

[00:13:06] Get Visible: that confusion amongst some of the more junior attorneys looking to make a move.

[00:13:12] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, a question that I have too, is I know like during the. Pandemic, there was a shortage of attorneys and attorneys were getting like record money to move from here to there and make maybe even making 50 percent more than they were at their past job is that coming to roost like coming home to roosted like our law firm starting to like realize now they’re overpaying.

[00:13:36] Steve Fretzin: For what the market is saying, and they have to let people go. Is that because it’s being done? I think mainly on the QT, like I’m not hearing about it every day. I’m hearing about it through my various grapevines. Yes, we are

[00:13:47] Emily Witt: seeing layoffs. I would say not at the rate where we saw in 2008. And I would also say the hiring market has slowed.

[00:14:00] Emily Witt: Not at the rate that we saw immediately after the onset of the pandemic in

[00:14:06] Get Visible: early March.

[00:14:07] Emily Witt: Where hiring froze, what I would say now is things are very specific in the hiring market. And what I mean by that is that there, there aren’t

[00:14:20] Get Visible: those gigantic bonuses that we saw.

[00:14:24] Emily Witt: I’m not saying they’re not there, but they’re much harder to achieve.

[00:14:28] Emily Witt: And you, in order to get that type of

[00:14:33] Get Visible: upgrade,

[00:14:34] Emily Witt: whether it be salary or some kind of bonus. The attorney really needs to be spot on

[00:14:41] Get Visible: for what the client is

[00:14:42] Emily Witt: looking for. So it’s not a market where it’s completely shut down. And I would say as we turn the corner into this

[00:14:53] Get Visible: last quarter of the year, we’re,

[00:14:55] Emily Witt: we’re, we’re told things are going to pick up.

[00:14:58] Emily Witt: We’re seeing a little bit of uptick. Opportunity is there. However,

[00:15:04] Get Visible: it is a very specific market for that opportunity. And

[00:15:10] Emily Witt: now is not the time to start

[00:15:13] Get Visible: to decide as a litigator that you want to try corporate or

[00:15:16] Emily Witt: vice versa. If you want to make

[00:15:19] Get Visible: a lateral move, it is much harder.

[00:15:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. As you all know, finding amazing employees can be the toughest job for any law firm leader.

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[00:16:29] Steve Fretzin: And what advice do you have for lawyers that are interested in making a move?

[00:16:32] Steve Fretzin: That’s you just gave actually some great advice. Uh, but let’s say that someone, you know, does have a book of business is in a specific niche. That’s highly, uh, that’s highly mobile. They can do it. I mean, they can possibly do it. So what, what, what do they need to do or prepare or be ready for? A

[00:16:50] Emily Witt: hundred percent.

[00:16:51] Emily Witt: Yes. If you have the experience and you’re ready to go, I think now is a great time because Firms have dopped a

[00:17:02] Get Visible: lot of their freezes or we’re seeing a slower

[00:17:07] Emily Witt: rate of layoffs. And so if you do have that specific experience, now is the best time to start talking to people. Going back to that open mind that I had at the rock climbing wall.

[00:17:25] Emily Witt: If something’s not right, and you’re in an exploratory mode, and you have that experience, own the fact that you have this great experience and say, okay, who can I talk to? That can often look like a recruiter, that can look like some of your colleagues that might be at other law firms. And and find out what’s out there.

[00:17:47] Emily Witt: But the only way to learn what the world looks like outside of your bubble is to start doing the outreach and network. And Steve, I know you work with a lot of attorneys on that specific piece. And, and then also getting yourself involved in matters that are

[00:18:10] Get Visible: going to speak to your next move. And this would look like what you talk about this book building,

[00:18:16] Emily Witt: whether you’re an associate or whether you’re a partner, if there’s work that you want to get into in your.

[00:18:23] Emily Witt: Doing well, just start asking for, for that exposure so that

[00:18:29] Get Visible: you walk into an interview

[00:18:32] Emily Witt: and say, I’ve done this from the beginning to the end.

[00:18:37] Steve Fretzin: Well, let me ask you this because I’ve asked a number of recruiters this and I’m feeling this every day. And in some cases, lawyers are coming to me to, to build the book so they can get out of their current situation that the, where the culture isn’t right.

[00:18:50] Steve Fretzin: The support is lacking. They’re not feeling like they have the brand. What do they, do lawyers know that they need a book that, again, there are some lawyers that don’t need a book of business to move because there may be, again, in a highly sought after area. They’re young enough where, uh, they’ve been, they’ve been at Kirkland for five years.

[00:19:06] Steve Fretzin: They built their credibility and now they can, you know, move where they want to move. But for attorneys that are, you know, 10, 15, 20 years in and they haven’t built a book, why do they not know that that’s a thing? I would

[00:19:19] Emily Witt: say most attorneys I’ve ever spoken

[00:19:22] Get Visible: with are familiar. With having a book I haven’t talked

[00:19:29] Emily Witt: to too

[00:19:29] Get Visible: many lawyers that felt wait Why didn’t

[00:19:32] Emily Witt: anyone tell me to build the book?

[00:19:35] Emily Witt: I think the issue is more The resources in getting the infrastructure

[00:19:45] Get Visible: to build that book. So,

[00:19:48] Emily Witt: a lot of the reasons we’ll see where attorneys don’t have books are they haven’t had that support system, which is

[00:19:55] Get Visible: often why they’ll leave. But

[00:19:58] Emily Witt: very rarely have I seen a lawyer say to me, oh, wait, you didn’t, you didn’t tell me that I need this.

[00:20:05] Emily Witt: However, I’m going to flip this here. It’s not about the need that the lawyers aren’t aware of. It’s about the

[00:20:12] Steve Fretzin: how. Well, it’s about the fact that they haven’t invested time, money, energy in that effort, whether they’re getting support or not. It’s something that. If you really want to have control and freedom in your career, you know, again, in some instances, you know, it may not be necessary, but in many, you know, it is and that they, they need to focus on that.

[00:20:32] Steve Fretzin: I guess I’m just putting, I’m being, I’m being difficult in this scenario because lawyers sort of know, you know, like it’s like an obese person that know they have to lose the weight, but it’s hard. And so I’m just going to keep eating Twinkies and Big Macs and whatever. Um, and now all of a sudden, you know, I have to make a change and now it’s kind of like too late or is it like, I’m, you know, now it’s too hard.

[00:20:53] Steve Fretzin: Like I’m over the, I’m over the, you know, it’s not 20 pounds, it’s 200 pounds, right?

[00:20:58] Emily Witt: I don’t think it’s ever too late to focus on

[00:21:01] Get Visible: business development.

[00:21:02] Steve Fretzin: Well, I don’t either. I don’t either. I guess I’m just saying from their perspective that they’re saying it’s, it’s like, you know, I’ve been in this 20 years, like I have all this great experience.

[00:21:11] Steve Fretzin: I know what I’m doing. Anybody should want me. And then they don’t.

[00:21:15] Emily Witt: Understood. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Firms need to stress the importance, I guess, where we’ll see this is for someone who might be comfortable where they are. And then all of a sudden it’s time to make a move. That’s where they are realizing the

[00:21:38] Get Visible: importance of, of having that.

[00:21:42] Emily Witt: Uh, book, so to speak, but if they’re at where they are, they might just be comfortable with the situation. But once again. You can be in a really comfortable situation and all of a sudden you’re learning that your firm is now merging with another one, or your favorite partner that you’ve been working with, most likely those people without those books are working with partners who have that book of business, and they’re either announcing their retirement or they’re moving on to another firm.

[00:22:21] Emily Witt: All of a sudden, uh, They’re thrown into this position of, oh, wait, I need

[00:22:28] Get Visible: to, to, to have this

[00:22:30] Emily Witt: to make it known. This is what other law

[00:22:33] Get Visible: firms

[00:22:34] Steve Fretzin: are looking for. I mean, I’m getting a lot of quiets that way, where something dramatic has happened and they’re in a bad place. Where hours have been slashed, clients have left, mergers have happened, blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:45] Steve Fretzin: And they’re coming to me and it’s like, we have to start from almost nothing to kind of now start building up from, from there. It’s always better when I have a client that has. 200 to 400, 000 on, you know, kind of at a low end. And now it’s about, Hey, can we get to a million? We know that at that level, control, freedom, security, mobility, all are, are much more easier, much easier to obtain.

[00:23:08] Emily Witt: Um, a couple of things I’m sorry to mention about that is. Even the ones who know they need a book, sometimes

[00:23:18] Get Visible: they don’t realize the magnitude in terms of how big their book needs to be. So going back to what you said

[00:23:27] Emily Witt: and the people that you’re working with, they might think they

[00:23:30] Get Visible: have a comfortable book, but when

[00:23:33] Emily Witt: it comes time to make a move and they’re looking to either maintain the same, maintain the same salary or.

[00:23:41] Emily Witt: Um, a greater salary, Oh, wait, you’re telling me I need to have this many clients in my Rolodex that the one, the one other thing I do want to note here, and I see this quite often with attorneys coming in with either little client base or no, or none at all are attorneys who might’ve started their careers in big law.

[00:24:06] Emily Witt: And have had gone to top schools and would seemingly have great experience to move into a law firm. Often they’re coming in without a book of business if they’re at a point in their

[00:24:19] Get Visible: careers where they want to go back to being in a law firm environment.

[00:24:24] Steve Fretzin: And there’s also the, you know, the GC roles aren’t always lasting forever, right?

[00:24:29] Steve Fretzin: I mean, there’s people flipping on GC roles. You know, I’ve got a friend who’s moved in and out of GC roles and in and out of, of law firm things. And again, doesn’t have a book and continues to not have a book. And you know, I feel for the guy because he’s not, he’s not picking up on the, on the idea that you know, you can have the freedom and all that stuff I always talk about.

[00:24:48] Steve Fretzin: Um, it’s not, and I get it, it’s not for everybody. There are people that are never going to do it and they’re going to deal with the consequences or maybe no consequences at all. They may have 40 year career of nothing but great clients and, and all everything in their heart’s desire. My concern is with the, the recession, the chain, the, the, the buyout, the.

[00:25:06] Steve Fretzin: You know, the, the ability for the competition, the, the non lawyer owned law firms that’s coming up the pike, the, you know, anything that can just kind of have, I mean, there’s a, there might be a government shutdown. How’s that going to impact whatever, you know, it’s just, there’s just a lot of, um, of, of, you know, mystery in the future.

[00:25:24] Steve Fretzin: Let’s wrap things up though, with a final question I have for you, Emily, which is what’s one thing that lawyers wish they knew after you told them?

[00:25:31] Emily Witt: Yes. So. I would say often

[00:25:38] Get Visible: lawyers are not aware in law school

[00:25:43] Emily Witt: what the

[00:25:44] Get Visible: full landscape looks like, particularly where a

[00:25:52] Emily Witt: lot of

[00:25:53] Get Visible: law schools give a very

[00:25:57] Emily Witt: styled

[00:25:59] Get Visible: view of the law

[00:26:00] Emily Witt: firms that are out there.

[00:26:02] Emily Witt: And that’s. That’s not at fault for the law firms, but often it can be an issue of geography in terms of where a particular law school is located. So they might not be completely familiar with the fact that there are boutiques out there and that there are different ways to practice law and how to get to those different junctures at your career.

[00:26:35] Emily Witt: Is is something that I see quite often that particularly the junior associates will say, oh, you know, if I had wanted to do. Startup law, you know, maybe I should have taken more

[00:26:51] Get Visible: internships that. Were

[00:26:54] Emily Witt: either technology focused

[00:26:56] Get Visible: or startup focused.

[00:26:58] Emily Witt: And so I think it’s coming out of that siloed view. And saying, oh, wait, wow, there’s all.

[00:27:06] Emily Witt: There are all these other things out there for me. I think that’s, that’s huge.

[00:27:10] Steve Fretzin: That’s huge. Well, I’ve been speaking at law schools and they’re, some of them, I’ve become friendly with some of the practice management professors and they have me come in and, and, you know, I’m, I’m like, you know, the outside guy who can, who can say, Hey, this is actually how it is.

[00:27:25] Steve Fretzin: This is what reality is and why you should start networking now in law school, and probably you should have already started. And again, I didn’t know that through college and after I didn’t, I wasn’t networking, keeping in touch with people, but the person to your left, your right, they used to say, you know, they may not be here in a year, right?

[00:27:40] Steve Fretzin: That whole scare tactic, which is, you know, and then they’re now it’s like, look to your left and right, who’s going to be a GC in 10 years that has all the business that they could be feeding you. If you keep that relationship going in and maybe who you should be staying away from and not wasting any more time on.

[00:27:54] Steve Fretzin: Hey, let’s wrap things up with our, our other segment that I love to do, which is our game changing podcast. And you’ve got an interesting one, Pod Save the World. Tell, what is that? I’ve never heard of that before. Sure.

[00:28:06] Emily Witt: Uh, they are, it is two gentlemen who used to work in the Obama administration, uh, Ben Rhodes and Tommy Vitor.

[00:28:18] Emily Witt: And they speak about world

[00:28:21] Get Visible: events. They called them the listeners

[00:28:23] Emily Witt: worldos. I’ve always been very interested

[00:28:26] Get Visible: in

[00:28:27] Emily Witt: global events and staying up to speed. On what’s going on, and I like hearing their perspective

[00:28:35] Get Visible: and the lens that

[00:28:37] Emily Witt: they’re analyzing the news, and they also have on some really interesting

[00:28:42] Get Visible: guests, and I find their community to be very inspiring.

[00:28:47] Steve Fretzin: Nice. Yeah, I’ll have to check that out. I really enjoy. I’m reading like topical news and learning about the world and I’m, I’m reading, you know, every day and listening to podcasts, you know, that cover that kind of ground. So I appreciate you sharing that. Hey, before we wrap up, Emily, want to take a moment to thank our, our wonderful sponsors, of course, um, get staffed up.

[00:29:05] Steve Fretzin: Who’s helping those lawyers to. Uh, get the full time marketing assistants like I have and Sergio was amazing and other admin roles. I think there may be moving into paralegal soon. Of course, we’ve got get visible who’s, uh, killing it on the marketing side. And lastly, overtured outlaw who’s helping lawyers to ethically be share around the country.

[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: So get your position, your area and your practice area set in stone with overtured outlaw before it’s too late. Check them out. Emily, thank you so much. This was great. I mean, I know there’s a lot of attorneys listening that, you know, everyone’s thought about it, right? Whether it’s going out on your own or it’s going to another firm or, you know, what’s the environment like?

[00:29:45] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, do I want to be here or not be here? So I think that the information you shared is really critical. And even thinking about the, the, the law firms that may be. You know, aren’t building their brand or aren’t that don’t have the best culture that need to work on that to retain people. I mean, that’s another that’s another whole episode, right?

[00:30:01] Steve Fretzin: Um, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. We’re wonderful having you and keep up on the Pilates and the yoga.

[00:30:06] Emily Witt: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And I hope we can do this again.

[00:30:09] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. I’d love that. And Hey, I thank you everybody for spending time with Emily today. You know, part of being that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker is, is really continuing to look at your existing environment and what the support is, what the culture is, what the future holds and make a decision that you’re going to, you’re going to build it there.

[00:30:28] Steve Fretzin: You’re going to, you’re going to figure out there might be a better environment for you. So… Uh, take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.

[00:30:39] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.