Gerald Maatman: Flipping the Switch to Become a Good Business Developer

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Gerald Maatman discuss:

  • Investing in yourself for better business development.
  • The Darwinism of business development.
  • Finding your passion and purpose.
  • Utilizing your skillsets appropriately in marketing.

Key Takeaways:

  • In business development, sweat equity pays dividends. You want to get ahead of the problem and deliver value to the clients who end up with that problem.
  • Do a great job on project number one, and project number two will follow.
  • Be able to articulate in a quick sentence who you are and what value proposition you bring.
  • Skill and success are valued by clients. Use the success you’ve had and market that to other purchasers of legal services, not by bragging, but by example.

“The very most important thing that I would share with a younger lawyer is you need to flip the switch on your mindset. To be a good business developer, you need to be resilient. You need to be optimistic.” —  Gerald Maatman

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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[00:00:00] Gerald Maatman: The very most important thing that I would share with a younger lawyer is you need to flip the switch on your mindset. To be a good business developer, you need to be resilient. You need to be optimistic.

[00:00:19] Narrator: You are listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Freson.

[00:00:41] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody. How’s. Going. Welcome to the show. I am Steve Fretzin, as the announcer mentioned. Welcome, welcome to be that lawyer. Today’s a very special day for two big reasons. Number one is I have a very good friend and one of my all-time favorite lawyers that I’ve ever had on the show that I’ve known for years.

[00:00:59] Steve Fretzin: Uh, Jerry Madman. How’s it going, Jerry? Oh, it’s great to be here. Thank you. Yeah, I’m so thrilled to have you. And guess what, man you are my 300th show guest. Wow, that it honor, yeah. 300 shows today. So this is really exciting. My father was my guest on my 200 show, and so you’re actually one upping my father.

[00:01:17] Steve Fretzin: So if you wanna, you know, pat yourself on the back or whatever you wanna do. But Larry, the lawyer is still kicking in retirement, but, uh, are you ever gonna retire?

[00:01:27] Gerald Maatman: Uh, I’m having too much fun to retire, so that’s not on my horizon right now. Yeah, he

[00:01:32] Steve Fretzin: retired 65 through the day and I think he has a little bit of regret about that because I think his, his brain atrophied a little bit because he was just an amazing lawyer, amazing problem solver, and, uh, I think he spends upwards of two hours a day playing solitaire these days.

[00:01:46] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know if that’s healthy or not. But, uh, he seems to enjoy it.

[00:01:49] Gerald Maatman: So good for him. Good for him.

[00:01:51] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Ev different strokes for different folks. I don’t think I’ll ever retire either. I think I’m gonna be one of these guys that’s gonna slow down a little bit, but I just don’t know that I’ll like, you know, totally hang it up.

[00:02:00] Steve Fretzin: I think I just, that’s just not in me.

[00:02:03] Gerald Maatman: So, well, uh, I know we’re gonna get in there today, but, uh, my, uh, recipe for that issue is discover and find your passion. And I wake up every morning thinking that the biggest case I’m ever gonna defend is gonna be filed that day. And I’ve worked my entire life to be in the right place at the right time to be able to handle that case.

[00:02:22] Gerald Maatman: So yeah, that’s what keeps me going.

[00:02:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I get that. I get that. Well, listen, man, we’ve got such a, a great, a great show for everybody and, and having Jerry back on the show, just so you guys know, we are gonna start with the quote of the show leading right into, uh, the interview. But Jerry, this is your quote.

[00:02:37] Steve Fretzin: You, you wrote this, invest in your own brand. And so I, I think that just is so, you know, perfect for our conversation today and. Why is that your quote of the show? Why? Why does that stand out for you as such an important thing for lawyers to recognize?

[00:02:51] Gerald Maatman: I think it’s a shorthand phrase, a so-called elevator speech for what business development and being a great lawyer is all about, and there are a lot of ingredients that get into that.

[00:03:02] Gerald Maatman: We’ll talk about it, but I think that sums up kind of the key to success and a path forward for younger lawyers that wanna get into business development and think about how to go about doing it.

[00:03:13] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And for those of you who are kind of hearing this for the first time, meeting Jerry for the first time, Jerry Madden is a partner and chair class action defense group at Duane Morris.

[00:03:23] Steve Fretzin: And you have the largest class action defense practice in the country. Is

[00:03:27] Gerald Maatman: that? Uh, I believe so, Steve. I’ve been a lawyer for, uh, 41 years and am a national practice. I’m a member of the bar in Illinois, New York, uh, at last count. I think I handle class actions and defend them in about 46. Uh, different states and run a very, very large team and a big platform, uh, big law, law firm, and having a lot of fun being able to handle cases throughout the United States.

[00:03:53] Gerald Maatman: Yeah. And it certainly

[00:03:54] Steve Fretzin: didn’t start there, right? Uh, that’s where you are today. But take us back to kind of, you know, your, your roots and, and starting out as a lawyer and leading into that, be that lawyer tipping point just so people can get a flavor for kind of where you, where, where you’ve

[00:04:05] Gerald Maatman: been. Sure. I started out my career in 1981 at Baker Mackenzie.

[00:04:10] Gerald Maatman: Went to court every single day, took a deposition every single day, and saw very successful lawyers knew absolutely nothing about marketing our business development, and that was way back in a world that a lot of people can’t even conceptualize law before the internet and before the email. I remember getting my first email in 1993 and not quite knowing what to do with it.

[00:04:33] Gerald Maatman: And so marketing has come a long way. I became a young partner at Baker Mackenzie and learned my craft as a litigator. Uh, after 20 years, went over to Cypress Shaw eventually, that’s a very large labor and management firm, and ran its class action group and over time, built the brand that we’re gonna talk about today.

[00:04:53] Gerald Maatman: And, uh, probably at age 65, 64, I could have, uh, eased back and done whatever I wanted to do and not. Need to make a change. But, uh, as one of my friends said, gee, Jerry, that was a bold move leaving where you were and going to Dwayne Morris to start afresh at a new firm. But to me it was the next challenge, the next great thing, and something very passionate about where I can put all the things I’ve learned over time, uh, and mentor a large group of people and build this huge, uh, national and branded class action practice.

[00:05:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I remember also you talking in, in their last interview about all the things that you do that you did to sort of get into that Americans with Disabilities Act back in what, the early nineties and how that was kind of an explosive part of your, of, of how you kind of, you know, built things out too.

[00:05:44] Steve Fretzin: I dunno if you wanna share that story.

[00:05:46] Gerald Maatman: Sure. Uh, it kind, uh, the mantra of when a young lawyer asked me, how do you go about business development? One of the things I say is, you need to invest in yourself. That, uh, sweat equity and business development is all about paying dividends and thinking about what are the problems that are going to be confronted in the future?

[00:06:06] Gerald Maatman: What are things that clients are gonna be dealing with? And so as a parent of a child with a disability and knowing that the Americans with Disabilities Act would be passed in the early 1990s, I went about educating myself about it, knowing that all of a sudden, It would empower and give rights to about 80 million Americans, including people in the workforce.

[00:06:30] Gerald Maatman: And corporate America had never dealt with the statute, never dealt with decision points or litigation. So I thought, why don’t I create a survival guide for corporate law departments and HR departments on how to deal with this brand new piece of legislation? So I put together what I thought was a user-friendly packet of materials, including, Sample personnel policies and standard operating procedures and a guide to, uh, the law and began to get speaking engagements and roll out, uh, through corporate America, these ideas.

[00:07:04] Gerald Maatman: And I have clients today that I acquired on that speaking tour, and it was all about identifying an issue, getting ahead of the problem and solving it for clients and to deliver value to them. And. That was kind of a light bulb that went off in my head about successful business development and how to do it now to invest in yourself and what that return looks like when you go to market and do that.

[00:07:28] Steve Fretzin: And I think lawyers sometimes struggle with, with seeing that in front of them. So the banking crisis that’s going on, or legalize marijuana, things that are coming, you know, you have to get there before it is a thing, before everybody’s got their fingers in the bowl, if you will. And I think that’s something, you know, we.

[00:07:45] Steve Fretzin: You know, I think reading and staying on top of, of the news and staying on top of what’s coming up the pike is really critical. And, you know, just that’s a really important message for lawyers, I

[00:07:54] Gerald Maatman: think. I agree. And I think that identifying problems and solution to those problems before a client even realizes is a problem, uh, is about thought leadership.

[00:08:05] Gerald Maatman: It’s about, uh, the, the new thing that they didn’t teach in law school and being in the right place at the right time to be able to solve. A client’s problems. And if you’re able to demonstrate that you have, uh, analyzed the issues, thought about the issues figured out, uh, a way to look around the corner, you’re invaluable in the client’s eyes.

[00:08:25] Gerald Maatman: And I’ve always thought that the best axiom of business development is do a great job on project number one, and inevitably project number two is gonna follow. And, uh, that’s always happened in my life. And so I think good lawyering is all about good problem solving. Yeah.

[00:08:43] Steve Fretzin: But, uh, the one, the one issue that the, the reason I’m in the business, right?

[00:08:48] Steve Fretzin: The reason I do what I do every day helping attorneys grow their law practices is cuz there is that, that significant deficit between law school, the law firm, and, and actually learning the skills and going out and you, you sort of figured it out on your own and, and work through a bunch of things to get there.

[00:09:03] Steve Fretzin: What are you seeing kind of as the greatest challenges for lawyers today in today’s environment to grow that book of business?

[00:09:10] Gerald Maatman: Well, I, I think that it’s part of the covid mentality and I saw kinda this paralysis that occurred around the time of covid, of people being isolated, being by themselves, you know, the old tried and true.

[00:09:25] Gerald Maatman: Take someone to dinner, travel and meet them. Uh, go give a seminar, really didn’t exist during Covid, where people are locked down in their houses and. To me, I saw that as an opportunity of how you can be a better business developer, uh, given those constraints. And so I would say to people, you always have to embrace change.

[00:09:47] Gerald Maatman: You have to be able to pivot and adjust to the conditions in front of you. And the strong survive business development is a lot about Darwinism, I think, in terms of those people who are willing to invest in themselves. And so, you know, I thought about last night, what are some of the characteristics, and I’d say the very most important thing that I would share with a younger lawyer is you need to flip the switch on your mindset.

[00:10:14] Gerald Maatman: To be a good business developer, you need to be resilient. You need to be optimistic. You know, they put 300 hitters in the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown and baseball who get three hits out of 10 advance. Well, the Business Development Hall of Fame, I’m sure the average is a lot lower, and you have to be used to people saying no, but you have to keep a smile on your face.

[00:10:37] Gerald Maatman: You need to have a passion and a purpose for the business development that keeps you going in it. I mentioned for me that passion and that purpose is waking up every morning thinking about, where’s that next case gonna come? How can I get it in the door? How can I. Engage a team on it. How can I mentor those younger lawyers, make them into better lawyers and make them, make me proud of them because they’re gonna be better business developers than I ever was.

[00:11:05] Gerald Maatman: So I’d say once you flip the switch and you have that mindset, then I think you need to invest in yourself cuz no one else is gonna do so. And the most important question you need to answer is what sort of lawyer do I want to be? Everyone wants to be a great lawyer, responsive, timely, et cetera, et cetera, but I think you need to be able to articulate in an elevator speech who you are and what’s the value proposition that you bring.

[00:11:33] Gerald Maatman: For me, my elevator speech is an experienced skill, hands on class action litigator who is one in successfully defended the biggest cases brought against corporate America. So everything I do on LinkedIn, every speech I give, every webinar, I uh, I do, everything is focused on polishing that brand, enhancing that brand.

[00:11:56] Gerald Maatman: When I look on Google about once a month, I want to see how many times do I pop up and what’s my brand reflect. And I think that having a very purposeful, focused execution on one’s brand will help them become a much better business developer. Rather than a vague, obtuse all over the place, sorta, I’m just going to dinner or joining this group cuz I, for, that’s a good thing to do for business development.

[00:12:23] Gerald Maatman: So I think it needs to be strategic, it needs to be tactical. You need to figure out what you’re doing and be very intentional about it, uh, when you go to market. And I think good things can happen. But I think one of the important things is this is not a hundred yard dash, it’s a marathon. And business development is a day by day process.

[00:12:45] Gerald Maatman: That doesn’t happen overnight. And I’m a different business developer today than I was 41 years ago based on all of the scar tissue that I accumulated. All the people who said no. And it makes me a better develop business developer to learn from those nos or learn from unsuccessful pitches, or learn from clients who hired a different lawyer of how I can reboot, be better, be more responsive to them, and be the type of lawyer that they’re gonna wanna hire.

[00:13:16] Gerald Maatman: Well, let’s, let’s go one

[00:13:18] Steve Fretzin: deeper with that, Jerry. I mean, you know, the way the world was, you know, years ago compared to today. How, how have you evolved? What has what, what has changed in, like, you mentioned your, your elevator pitch is kind of consistent. Maybe that’s evolved, but what other things have you have you adapted to in, in Darwinism and, and everything from then to now?

[00:13:39] Gerald Maatman: Well, I think in the eighties and nineties I would go to three hour lunches with the three martinis, and business development was very relationship based with lunches, dinners, sporting events, plays. Whatever. Yep. And I think that business development at very high level now is more about branding, more about digital technology, more about being first to the market and more about your experience and who you are and what you can do.

[00:14:09] Gerald Maatman: Because there’s intense competition, many more people trying to market their services and just being the guy who dicks someone to lunch. May be a little passe. It may work in one instance, but it certainly doesn’t work across the board. And so being tactical about your brand, how you reach out to the market, what are the, uh, suite of services, suite of materials, suite of rapid response documents that you have that you can go to the market.

[00:14:40] Gerald Maatman: It’s as if. You know, the eighties and nineties with the three martini lunch was the first generation, and we’re on about the 18th generation now of what intense marketing and business development looks like. Yeah,

[00:14:53] Steve Fretzin: the, the thing that I’m, you know, kind of pitching, in fact, I did a poll on LinkedIn today, but that, you know, there’s a delay on the show, but, um, the idea that business development is on one side of the mountain that you’re climbing and marketing is on the other side of the mountain that you’re climbing.

[00:15:06] Steve Fretzin: And the, the pinnacle is the being at the top is when the marketing and the business development come together, where all the relationships match up and mirror with all of the. Branding and marketing and, and getting your name out there and putting out unique in, in educational materials that people, you know, recognize as, as, you know, a leader or thought leadership, things like that.

[00:15:26] Steve Fretzin: What do you, how do you feel about, about kind of that,

[00:15:29] Gerald Maatman: that I’ll read with, uh, a good percentage of what you just said, but I would add or bolt on one concept and not all lawyers are equal and what clients are looking for are solutions. And so when marketing, business development and a third pillar of client service all coalesce at the same time and getting in the right place and getting the assignment is half the battle, the other battle is to shine, do a great job, and um, uh, in essence and instill confidence in the client that I picked the right lawyer, the right law firm, and they brought me the solution that added value to my business.

[00:16:10] Gerald Maatman: That is when you’re in that rarefied, he. And when Project number one turns into Project number 400, Because you’ve made yourself indispensable to that particular purchaser of legal service.

[00:16:22] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Let’s take a quick break to talk about how Money Penny is changing the game. For lawyers who are losing business every day and may not even realize it, it’s impossible to provide a.

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[00:16:53] Steve Fretzin: It’s s vj And just mention my name in the subject line Lawyers. There’s

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[00:17:27] Steve Fretzin: Well, I, I agree that that’s gonna be an impactful way to grow business, is to be a great lawyer and to great, get great results. I think there are some lawyers that are relying on that, and it might backfire from the standpoint of the phone isn’t ringing, they did a great job, but it could be an estate plan that’s a one and done.

[00:17:44] Steve Fretzin: It could be some other. Form of, of law where there isn’t, you know, institutional type of work that can come from it, right. As a, as an industry term. So I think that’s where the marketing and the business development kicks in. But again, if you, if you’re in a position where good work produces more referrals than you can handle, I mean, that’s, that’s like, that’s, that’s the top of the

[00:18:03] Gerald Maatman: mountain.

[00:18:03] Gerald Maatman: Yeah. I think doing a great job, but no one knows about it certainly doesn’t contribute to your marketing and business development. You have to figure out how can I. Parlay my success in creating those solutions to a brand that people know about, appreciate and understand, and can grasp it in a way where I am on their telephone list of people that they need to call before they give out a project or an assignment, because I’m one of the essential problem solvers that they need to talk to.

[00:18:36] Gerald Maatman: Right.

[00:18:37] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, one of the concerns I know lawyers have in some of this is, is defined, you know, via the A R D C and some of this is, is, is what I consider head trash. But you know, they don’t wanna talk about themselves. They don’t want to, you know, puff their chest out and say what a great lawyer they are.

[00:18:52] Steve Fretzin: However, people don’t know about them and they need to, they need to build that personal brand. So how do we get through some of the mindset shift of. It’s, you know, that you need to get the good word out about yourself and about all the good work you’re doing, but it doesn’t have to be something where you know, you, you’re gonna feel kind of icky about it.

[00:19:15] Gerald Maatman: Yeah. I think it’s a very nuanced, subtle way in which to go to market, uh, to not brag about oneself, but to rather say, here is some experience that has been gained that I think will be useful to you and others. Who are encountering these problems for the first time. And so it’s thought leadership, it’s expertise, but it’s basically done in a way that’s not off-putting, not upsetting, but nevertheless distinguishes you based on your skillset and your experience in terms of what you’ve done.

[00:19:49] Gerald Maatman: Uh, the light bulb went off for me, I think, uh, in this area about 1999. I was fortunate enough to handle a case brought by someone. Who at the time wasn’t too famous, but ultimately became, uh, famous. His name was Elliot Spitzer and he was the Attorney General of New York, and he began suing Wall Street companies for security fraud violations.

[00:20:12] Gerald Maatman: But he tried his cases in the media and he would Vandy about all these allegations at a press conference and the market share of some of the companies would begin to go south based on these press conferences. People were very upset about it. And then he expanded and brought a sex harassment case against a Wall Street company and I defended it and was able to beat it and was able to get rid of it, and it was his biggest loss.

[00:20:39] Gerald Maatman: And as a result, I got tapped to handle many other cases in New York City, and I became a member of the New York Bar and began to commute back and forth between Chicago and New York. And what I learned is skill and success. Is something valued by clients. They’ll say basically, you know, Jerry, I feel secure as the general counselors, as the c e O to have your hands on the steering wheel of this problem because you’ve handled this before and you’ve been successful in handling it.

[00:21:11] Gerald Maatman: And I will rest easier at night because I have confidence in your skillset. And that’s how I kind of flipped the switch in my mind about using success on matters or experience. And to be able to market that to other purchasers of legal service, not by bragging about it, but based on that experience and skillset and securing of results, because it made them have confidence in their selection of me as a lawyer.

[00:21:41] Gerald Maatman: And so it’s a very, very subtle difference, but I think ragging is certainly off-putting. But there’s a way to get your skillsets and your experience in front of those purchases of legal services in an appropriate and respectful way. For me, that’s how I was able to do it. Well, the other

[00:21:59] Steve Fretzin: thing that, that, that, that brings up is if you believe, and you’ve been told that you’re the best at what you do, isn’t it a misstep to not.

[00:22:09] Steve Fretzin: Let other people know or to not get introduced to other GCs and other CEOs that you can help in a similar fashion isn’t almost a disservice for those companies to go on with under being underrepresented because you, you haven’t made, had that introduction made. So I try to put that into my client’s heads that, look, you’re great at what you do.

[00:22:27] Steve Fretzin: No one’s doing it better, but you’re also like a best kept secret. And how, how that’s not a, a great thing to brag about, right? You need, you people need to, to, to talk you

[00:22:36] Gerald Maatman: up. I agree. I mean, I read all your stuff religiously that you put out there, and I think one of your notions and one of your tips is about asking clients after a great engagement to give you a LinkedIn recommendation.

[00:22:51] Gerald Maatman: And I think those are, that’s absolute gold dust when a client will give a testimonial about what you’ve done and how you’ve done it and how you’ve created value and success for them. And I think that that goes a long way. I always, as a matter of my pitches and business development meetings with prospects, say, I’d be happy to supply you with the names of 10 general counsel who have worked with me, who I have already talked to, who would be willing to give you, um, their thoughts on the use of my services and what it meant for my business.

[00:23:25] Gerald Maatman: And when you’re able to say that, And even offer it. That says a lot about you and what other people think about you. And in many respects, having a third party brand endorsement by someone else who’s got no skin in the game is one of the, I think, one of the most effective marketing tools I’ve seen, uh, in this space.

[00:23:45] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think that the, the testimonial in the recommendations are critical. And then the other side of it is, Actually getting introduced to other GCs and other CEOs from the top players that, you know, cause they all know each other, right? I mean, the CEOs know CEOs, GCs, no GCs. And sometimes it’s just a matter of that, uh, that that head trash or that mindset we talked about earlier.

[00:24:05] Steve Fretzin: And then the other thing that you may have picked up in my writing is like, there are, there’s specific language that you can use that makes it less salesy, less, you know, maybe abrasive as a way that it almost comes across as their idea. And then it’s just a matter of, you know, actually helping them help you to get that introduction made.

[00:24:23] Steve Fretzin: But that’s something I, I’ve been, you know, talking about for years and, and just some lawyers are totally bought into it and others are terrified of it.

[00:24:31] Gerald Maatman: I would agree. I think there are some lawyers that are afraid to talk about themselves, afraid to be, you know, quote the fuller brush salesperson knocking door to door.

[00:24:41] Gerald Maatman: And I think that you need to get out of that mindset cuz we’re all in the same space and you need to be able to talk the talk. Of that purchaser of legal services that’s looking for value and looking for someone that doesn’t have to reinvent the wheel for the first time. And I think that when you start to think about it that way, you’re not bragging about yourself, you’re conveying market information that’s gonna be a purchasing point for those people.

[00:25:07] Gerald Maatman: Yeah.

[00:25:08] Steve Fretzin: So as we kind of like wrap things up and we’ve got a few minutes, but I wanted you just, if there are a few additional tips that you would give to. Let’s just say young lawyers that are coming up in their associate level, or they just started their own firm and they’re, they’re trying to get their kind of head wrapped around, how do I, you know, I have to do this work.

[00:25:26] Steve Fretzin: Yet at the same time, Jerry’s saying, Hey, I gotta go build my brand and build my book. What are some tips that you’d give to, to those folks listening right now that are, that are, that are wondering how, you know, how do

[00:25:36] Gerald Maatman: I make it Well, well, the first thing to do is stop wasting time, and it’s an imperative to start tomorrow and sit down in a room.

[00:25:45] Gerald Maatman: With a pad of paper and a pencil or a pen and figure out what’s my brand and who do I wanna be and how do I get there? And then work, um, consistently and on a daily basis to polish that brand in the marathon that you’re running it. So I do an audit. First audit I do is do I have enough relationships or what can I do to build my relationships?

[00:26:09] Gerald Maatman: People I work with people. I know people in the industry, thought leaders in the industry. Uh, reporters who cover that industry and how can I link up with them on LinkedIn and get in conversations with them? Then I’d say, what can I do to add the thought leadership in my space on LinkedIn, on Twitter, in articles and the like, so that once every 30 days when I put my name on Google, that list is growing and growing and other people besides me see it.

[00:26:39] Gerald Maatman: Then I’d say, how can I build my brand in a systematic way, week by week, month by month, year by year, with goals in terms of who I wanna be and what I want to be and how I measure that. And so I would say it, it’s not about signing up for a lunch, it’s not about joining a group. It’s very intentional and purposeful about building my brand and not deviating from that course.

[00:27:04] Gerald Maatman: And my sense is that. If you invest that sweat equity in that sort of exercise, good things are going to occur. And over time, you know, you’re gonna turn into a, a great business developer.

[00:27:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, there’s just, there’s a lot of moving parts. However, if we keep it simple. It’s planning and executing on the brand and the relationships.

[00:27:26] Steve Fretzin: I mean, that’s the, that’s the gist of it. And then being consistent and I think also making improvements over time. To your point earlier that you can’t stay the same one year to the next, if the world is changing, you need to adapt and change with it. Whether that’s a chat G B T that’s adding social media, that’s making a, a move on your brand or what’s happening in the, you know, with what’s happening in the marketplace.

[00:27:46] Steve Fretzin: You can’t just, you can’t just be sedentary with it.

[00:27:49] Gerald Maatman: I could not agree more. Change is inevitable in the legal industry and in business development. And a great client today isn’t necessarily guaranteed to be a great client tomorrow. You need to work at it. You need, it’s like a garden. You need to water it.

[00:28:04] Gerald Maatman: You need to tend to it. You need to invest in it. And if you’re not, somebody else is. And so business development is an everyday thing, not I’ll do this once every 21 days. For me, I, I easily spend three hours a day just on business development off the time sheet because I’m investing in myself and that’s a heck of an investment and, uh, that’s gonna pay off down the road.

[00:28:28] Gerald Maatman: Well,

[00:28:28] Steve Fretzin: there is, there is a, uh, someone was on my show and I’m, I’m so awful with, with remembering who it was and what was said, but essentially that you’re, you’re gonna actually make two and a half times what you bill doing business development effectively being out there. So you spend three hours doing business development a day that’s actually gonna produce a lot more business and a lot more value than you actually billing at a thousand hour, whatever that number is.

[00:28:52] Steve Fretzin: Um, and so that’s, you know, that’s something that most lawyers. Haven’t or aren’t able to wrap their head around because it seems like charging, you know, whatever they’re charging an hour seems to be the best way to spend

[00:29:03] Gerald Maatman: their time. Yeah, I’ve always been a proponent of view that don’t worry about the metrics and don’t try and figure that out.

[00:29:10] Gerald Maatman: And if you’re, you know, watching your watch and looking at that return minute by minute, you’re gonna be ground to a pulp. Free yourself from that and just focus on building your brand and being better on Tuesday than you were on Monday. And good things inevitably are going to happen. And some you can measure with pennies, nickels, and dimes, and some you can’t.

[00:29:35] Gerald Maatman: But at the end of the day, if your brand expands and you get better and you start bringing in that business and then you’re able to hire more lawyers and mentor more people, I mean, it’s gonna build on itself and get better. Really, really

[00:29:49] Steve Fretzin: great stuff. Jerry. Let’s, uh, let’s wrap up with your game changing book three, episode 300 of Be That Lawyer.

[00:29:56] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, I was l shocked and also, so, uh, happy to see that you, uh, you, you submitted my book, legal Business Development is in Rocket Science. You did, uh, write the forward for that, which I was so appreciative of. And. Again, that’s just, that’s a book that, uh, you know, bestseller in four countries and I’m just so happy about it.

[00:30:13] Steve Fretzin: But anything, uh, about those specifics about the book that you, that you enjoy?

[00:30:18] Gerald Maatman: Uh, I loved, uh, the inside scoop of thinking about the mind of the legal purchaser. And when you d try to do things, put yourself in the mind of the person who’s hearing your pitch, hearing your story, and how they figure out how to select you or to evaluate what you’re trying to sell.

[00:30:38] Gerald Maatman: And it’s beauty is in the eye of a holder. And adjust and pivot to the eye of the beholder, I think is a great mindset and very helpful in MySpace.

[00:30:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, again, we’ve got 51 chapters of my greatest hits, so check that out. Legal business development is a rocket science available on Amazon. I think free if you’re a Kindle person.

[00:30:58] Steve Fretzin: If you’re a Kindle, uh, um, you know, like. Unlimited Kindle person. Anyway, and of course, want to thank our sponsors before we wrap up. Legalese Marketing and Money. Penny, some wonderful sponsors. And again, you know, check out to learn more about what I’m doing every day to help attorneys. Jerry, man, I just can’t thank you enough for not only being, you know, my friend and being a great advocate and supporter, but just for everything you do for the legal industry, man.

[00:31:22] Steve Fretzin: Really, really impressive and, and just so happy, uh, that you’re able to, to be on the show again.

[00:31:27] Gerald Maatman: Thank you. Thank you. You’re the best. Brilliant. It’s great being your, uh, 300th episode guest and being in this same, uh, category as your dad.

[00:31:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So Larry, the lawyer listening right now if he could, but he doesn’t have a smartphone, so he doesn’t, he doesn’t listen anyway.

[00:31:42] Steve Fretzin: That’s okay. He’s, he’s, he’s a, he’s a, he is still got a solitaire. Listen, everybody, thank you for spending time with Jerry and I today. Again, the, the goal is always to help you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled brain maker. Take care, everybody. Be safe, be well, more shows to come.

[00:31:55] Steve Fretzin: Take care.

[00:32:01] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.