In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Heather Moulder discuss:
- Aligning legal careers with personal values and intentionality
- Leveraging storytelling for branding and client relationships
- Balancing life, career, and embracing transformative change
- Attracting ideal clients for a sustainable practice
Key Takeaways:
- Lawyers can attract ideal clients by sharing stories that highlight their values, approach, and style, rather than focusing solely on credentials.
- Life challenges, like a cancer diagnosis, can spark a re-evaluation of priorities and lead to career shifts aligned with personal fulfillment.
- Effective storytelling involves brainstorming past experiences, organizing them into themes, and focusing on lessons or client wins while maintaining confidentiality.
- Strong branding stories cast the client as the hero and the lawyer as a guide, creating relatable and impactful narratives.
“The brilliance of storytelling…. is it attracts better clients. And by better, I don’t mean others are bad…just not a good fit for you from a values or personality perspective.” — Heather Moulder
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/
Rainmakers Roundtable: https://fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References:
Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller: https://www.amazon.com/Building-StoryBrand-Clarify-Message-Customers/dp/0718033329
About Heather Moulder: Heather Moulder, former Big Law partner, lawyer business coach, and host of the Life & Law Podcast, left a multi-million-dollar book of business after 18 years in private practice and a breast cancer battle to help lawyers build their ideal law practice around the life they want to live.
Using a tailored framework aligned with each client’s strengths, values, and needs, Heather helps attorneys build seven-figure practices without sacrificing themselves. Her clients rave about how this approach 10x’s performance and reenergizes them professionally.
When not helping clients achieve more with less, Heather is cooking gluten-free meals or cheering on her baseball-obsessed teenager in the Texas heat.
Connect with Heather Moulder:
Website: https://www.coursecorrectioncoaching.com/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathermoulder/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I want to take a moment to do our Q& A of the show, and that’s with Kelly from Tampa, Florida. And she’s asking, I was just passed over for equity again this year. Should I stay and tough it out or should I start looking for another firm? That’s something we could talk one on one about Kelly, but honestly, I would say before you look at the horrible people around you that you may be pissed at at your firm, I would say look inward.
And say, look, there were certain requirements. Did I meet them or exceed them? And part of that might be business development. I’m thinking it might be. And so the idea that, you know, Hey, if you have a half a million or a million dollar book of business, are they being transparent about what does it actually take to be equity?
Are they keeping it kind of hidden from you? I would talk to a bunch of other equities and find out if there’s any secrets that you’re missing the answer to. And obviously I’m being the BD guy, I’m going to say, focus on BD and focus on being a great lawyer and they should not pass you over. But if you feel like it’s something either political or that they’re just not valuing you, then yeah, [00:01:00] you may want to start looking for another firm because they’re just going to maybe try to keep you as a worker bee year after year and that may not be where you want to be.
So. Hopefully this was helpful, Kelly. And again, if you have any questions, you can reach me directly, Steve at Fretzin. com. That’s all I have for today, guys. Enjoy the show.
Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Branson, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host Steve Branson.
Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. Thrilled that you’re here today. If you have not heard of Fretzin Inc and the Be That Lawyer brand, we’ve got books, we’ve got articles, we got a bunch of stuff. Check it out online, type my name into Google, whatever you want to do. But most importantly, continue listening to this podcast, because I really do believe that no [00:02:00] one else has better guests than I do.
And today, guess what is no different. I’ve got Heather waiting in the wings. How you doing Heather?
Heather Moulder: I’m great. How are you?
Steve Fretzin: I’m doing well. It’s our first like blizzard here in Chicago in We’re talking this is just before Thanksgiving when this is being recorded and I’m looking outside. It’s just white.
It’s just a sheet of white outside. Okay. That probably
Heather Moulder: means it’s snowing where my freshman college son is. Yes.
Steve Fretzin: You’ll probably have to reach out. And I had to get my teenager up a few minutes early to say, Hey, you might have to get up early and scrape your car. And he was like, Oh, just moping down the hallway anyway.
So I, you have a great quote of the show at Winston Churchill, and I’m going to do my best not to screw this up, but I’m no promises. Here we go. Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never, in nothing, great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Alright, I did it. I think I nailed that. Alright.
Heather Moulder: You did.
Steve Fretzin: Welcome to the show, Heather, [00:03:00] and please share. Why is that your quote of the show? Why do you love that quote by Winston Churchill?
Heather Moulder: So I will note that many people may have heard it, but they probably heard it incorrectly with that last part left off.
That’s how I see it all the time. And that last part is really important. I think so. And it’s incredibly important, right? So to me, it speaks tenacity, discipline, and intentionality. And knowing that going all in is worthwhile. And you’ve got to be tenacious and disciplined and really intentional about it, but sometimes circumstances change or new information comes to light that does and should change whether you continue on the same path and instead gives you new information in which to utilize to be intentional around should I stop?
Should I pivot? Should I make a course correction? What should I do? Yeah.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I’m going to turn it around and say the opposite, give in, give in, give in. Always, always, always when it’s [00:04:00] absolute BS and it’s not worth your time to fight. Just let it go, move on. It’s not worth your energy. You know, these little fights and these little tips and this, you know, politicking at the office or whatever it might be that people engage in.
Right. It’s the opposite. Just give in and walk away and don’t engage. Right. It’s like drains your energy. Not worth it. Yeah. So now Winston Churchill can quote me. How about that? All right, making my mark, given, given, given, always, always, always. All right. So now we’re onto it. Okay. Heather, I’m so happy that you’re here.
You’re another top lawyer coach that I am building a friendship with and I’m just so excited about, you know, how we do things similarly, but there’s, everyone’s got their superpower. Everybody’s got their jam of like what they’re bringing to the table. And I’m not really. Like an expert, or I wouldn’t even call myself like moderate, like in like storytelling and like how to like help lawyers and professionals, like tell their story and build their brand and that type of thing.
Give us a little background leading into how you [00:05:00] became a top lawyer coach in the, in working with lawyers all over the country.
Heather Moulder: So I am one of those lawyers who actually worked for a long period of time in the law. I you know, I started out very naive as lawyers do. Somewhat burned out several years and quickly realized, okay, I got to do something different if I’m going to make it work.
And ultimately for me, that meant changing firms. I was not at a good fit firm for me. It was a great firm in many ways. I’m glad I started there. I learned a lot, but it wasn’t a good fit for me to become partner, build a practice because it wasn’t the right the kind of law they did wasn’t really what I like.
And so I moved over. Made partner, built a big book of business, was very quote unquote successful, and frankly, I was very happy. But then along the lines, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and I was actually very young when I had breast cancer. I was 38 years old when I was diagnosed. It was very aggressive, and initially the prognosis was not good.[00:06:00]
And I did not know it at the time, but that planted a seed. That later pulled me out of the law. So bought my cancer, took like 10, 11 months completely off, came back, continued to grow my business. It was very successful. It was a partner. It was a big law firm. Actually, I was in big law and. I remember this very distinct moment.
A couple of years, I had come back, built my business, and something just kind of felt off to me. And I was in the kitchen, and I was doing my dishes, and you hear about these moments when people are on the operating table, and maybe they die for a few seconds, and they look from above. Well, I had actually one of those moments where I felt like I was watching myself from above.
And this person looked like me. They talked like me, they sounded like me, but it didn’t feel like me anymore, if that makes sense. And I’m not a woo person, really. That kind of shook me. And that was the beginning for me of going, okay, whoa, what’s going [00:07:00] on? Obviously, this experience has changed me in some way.
I need to figure this out. And I did not know it was going to lead me out of the law, but ultimately it did over time. And I went through a couple of years, like several year journey of. What do I want to do? Do I just step back? Do I want to step back and stay here? A friend of mine who is a coach, she’s an executive coach, said, you know, you’d be a really good coach.
And that kind of planted that seed that eventually I started to look into and realized, oh, I’d actually, I could use my skills as a coach. And so that got me on the path. And then a couple of years later, I decided I’m ready. I want to leave. And, you know, service has always been a big value for me. I was able to express my value through my work with my clients and I really enjoyed my work, but that cancer journey changed me in a lot of ways.
And it made, it really made me want to serve people on a more individual basis. And it’s funny because when I left, I did not work with lawyers initially. [00:08:00] I was a work life balance coach for men and women, mostly women professionals. And slowly but surely lawyers started coming to me, slowly but surely more and more of my clients were lawyers.
Then they were like, you built a great book of business as a big law attorney. How did you do it? So I started more business coaching and it just slowly morphed. As it happens, it
Steve Fretzin: happens. Yeah. Yeah. And I was someone who a hundred percent didn’t want to work and never thought twice about lawyers. Like when I got into it, it was all entrepreneurs, sales coaching.
I use the word sales. My company name was called Sales Results, Inc. Which, you know, for most entrepreneurs love that name, lawyers, less so, right? So, you know, it’s, and I think it’s important to just put out there that, you know, it’s okay to have a second chapter or a third chapter in your career. It doesn’t have to be start and finish and retire at this big firm and blah, blah, blah.
I mean, for some people, that’s exactly what they want. And for others, like there’s adventures out there to be [00:09:00] had. And you only get, you know, you had a near death experience. I’ve had that. And like you get one shot at this damn thing. And if you’re not happy and you’re not doing what you really were meant to do and you start to like figure it out or think about it, you know, it’s take it seriously.
It’s, you know, it’s pretty important.
Heather Moulder: I would say that experience and thinking I was likely to die at the age of 38 or 39 with a six and two year old at home really changed my perception of risk and what is and is not risky. And I had not really thought, I always thought, and this is the typical lawyer thinking, making a big change is risky.
On the other side of that though, if you have this inkling that this isn’t right, something has changed, and you don’t go down that, I think that’s riskier. Because it changes you from the inside in ways you’re not gonna like. And it makes you a more bitter, resentful person. So, listen to those, and understand there’s risk on both [00:10:00] sides.
Steve Fretzin: With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings. Get cases. And schedule a free [email protected] today.
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here. Man. I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking what’s the rainmakers round table? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop? With America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, bretson. com and apply for membership today. I mean, this is [00:11:00] how I’m going to transition. We’ll see if it works, but like we’re telling our stories on this podcast.
And I think there was a lot of lawyers who struggle telling their story and leveraging that in a positive way in legal marketing and networking and building a brand and building a business. I was speaking to a lawyer yesterday who Was in jail for drunk driving and hurt, injured somebody terribly.
And you know, just his story of how he, what happened and how he redeemed himself. And now he’s back in the law again. And like, I mean, the story’s incredible and powerful, and I just didn’t want to get off the phone with the guy. So let’s talk a little bit about the benefits of using storytelling for lawyers that really have a story or that aren’t maybe getting it out.
Heather Moulder: So there’s two types of storytelling. There’s the branding storytelling, which you’re talking about, which is the individual lawyer’s story, which I find a lot of lawyers really hesitant to share. They don’t want to make it about them. [00:12:00] And so my advice for those who feel that way is start by telling stories in different ways that showcase who you are, your approach.
And then as you get comfortable with sharing client stories, you can then start sharing more of your story. What I have found is that once they break the ice on one, they’re willing to go into the other. And I would say when it comes to sharing your story, we all think our stories are not that compelling.
I don’t have that important of a story, but you do. Everybody does. Everybody has a reason why they do what they do. Everybody has some, you know, reason why they continue. They have, you know, the background of this is what’s important and this is why. Your story showcases. Your style, your approach, how you relate to your clients, and it also showcases your values.
And that’s, what’s so beneficial about it. Because the thing that I think more lawyers need to understand is you’re not there to [00:13:00] represent everyone, right? You do not want every potential client you could possibly have in your field, because they’re not all a great fit. We all know we’ve had those clients that are super needy, super difficult.
The ones that we see the phone ringing, we’re like, Oh, I have to answer this. Right. Brilliance of storytelling. Both telling stories about clients, which then still showcases your approach, your style, etc. And also telling your own story. Is it attracts better clients to you? And when I mean better, it’s not that the other people are bad.
It’s just, they’re not a good fit for you from a values perspective, from a personality perspective.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I love that. And people don’t take into account the importance of doing business with people like you and how wonderful that can be. So just, you know, I work with the most amazing, wonderful people, lawyers, and I don’t have a jerk in the bunch.
I don’t have an ego in the bunch. I don’t have any, because that’s not who I’m attracting. By the way, they, those people know everything [00:14:00] anyway, they don’t need me. Side note, but you get it like, you know, it just, I think that’s really where people want to be. And they don’t always necessarily know how to get those kinds of clients that appreciate them and have that, they can build that relationship with, then you get more longevity with those clients too.
Heather Moulder: Yeah. Storytelling is the end for that. It is what showcases who you are as a person and it showcases your personality, your approach, how you relate to clients. And it also helps you, especially when you start to use not just your story, but other stories. So we all hear about, you know, show, don’t tell, and you’re going to be a guest on my podcast soon.
And you made this point yourself in, you say you don’t do storytelling, but I think you actually know storytelling more than you think you just don’t identify it as such.
Steve Fretzin: Well, that’s fine. That’s probably true. But I’m not like teaching people storytelling maybe to the degree I should, but I am definitely telling stories.
Yes.
Heather Moulder: Yes. Yes. And, you know, but it showcases. What you do, how [00:15:00] you do it, who you do it for, and, you know, kind of the why behind why you, what makes you special, without you having to say it, because that’s uncomfortable. We all think of cells as having to tell people, Oh, I had these degrees and I’ve done these.
I like to actually, I have a great example. When I was a very young lawyer, there were two lawyers. Two partners I worked for a lot and they taught me a lot about storytelling and I didn’t know it at the time. That’s what it was, but it really is what it was. So one partner was a female partner with an okay book of business.
She was doing okay, but she worked hard for that business, like crazy hard. And she would take me on client lunches and pitches and It was always a, ask a couple questions, and then, oh, I’ve done that. I did five of those in the last year, and we got great results for clients, and like, very general kind of talk, right?
And it was like, it was the most uncomfortable thing. Everybody would get kind of uncomfortable and quiet, and it did not land well at all. [00:16:00] The other client, when he would take me out for lunches, would ask deeper questions and would help solve problems. And if something came up that he had, Oh, you know what?
This came up with the client a couple months ago. Let me ask you a few more questions. Okay, well here’s what we learned. Here’s what we did here. Here’s why. Have you thought up? That’s a way to utilize storytelling, and you don’t even re people don’t realize you’re storytelling, but you are. And it showcases so clearly, His approach, his style, how he works with people without him having to say it, to tell them.
Steve Fretzin: That’s a great, it’s a great workaround. Totally. But lawyers struggle with that. How do they identify good stories from either past experiences or without, you know, like compromising client confidentiality? Because like, let’s say they won the day for a client. There’s a story there, but
Heather Moulder: yeah, they’ve
Steve Fretzin: got to be careful too.
Heather Moulder: So a couple of things the starting point is to just start by brainstorming. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:17:00] Absolutely. And really look back to your past year or two. Start there because if you go too far, you get like overwhelmed and look for like, what are common themes that show up over and over and over again?
What do you wish your clients would know before they hired you or did or didn’t do that you’re always having to get them out of trouble with, right? What are common like pitfalls that you see over and over again? Like start there and note that it’s not just about wins. You know, you want, the whole point of sharing stories is to provide some type of value and insight to the people you’re sharing a story with, so what’s the win or the lesson?
It doesn’t necessarily mean a win for you or your client. It’s the lesson learned, the thing that you now know, right? So that’s number one, something that can help. I promise I will get to the client confidentiality provision, but when you’re identifying stories, you don’t worry about that yet. You [00:18:00] want to get super specific because otherwise you’re going to have trouble utilizing them later on.
So get as specific as you can. And also think about like, I find with my clients, it helps a lot to organize their thoughts into categories or what people in marketing call content pillars. Okay. Peace. So, for example, I was a lending lawyer. I would maybe think of it, okay, what happens at the contracting deal stage?
What happens during the life of the loan when you’re like the back and forth day to day issues? And then what about when you have distressed borrowers? Those were kind of like the big issues that we would deal with. So if I thought of it in those ways, it’s easier for me to identify stories underneath each one.
Oh, well, this issue comes up and here’s that, you know, and so get very specific and log them somewhere. Right. Okay. So, and, and just note that these stories can be utilized in writing, if you’re writing on LinkedIn, they can be in articles, they make it more compelling when you utilize stories to make a point.
And when you [00:19:00] start to do this, you remember them more freely because then you can use them in networking, too, like that partner I mentioned earlier. The other thing that I would note is understand who you’re speaking to. You need to have a very clear idea of who your perfect client is in order to come up with the right, not just the right stories, but then know how to tell the story correctly.
Who is it that you’re speaking to? And have one person in mind. That’s going to help you a whole lot when it comes to identifying what stories. And then sometimes I would say, like, let’s say you’re putting together a presentation and there’s a point you’re trying to make and you’re like, you know, a story would work really well here.
So step back and go, okay, well, what’s the problem? What’s the struggle? What’s the issue? What’s the lesson learned? Where have I seen that? What client dealt with that? And get super specific to identify the story you want to utilize. When it comes to sharing them, first off, the vast majority of stories, you don’t need to give all the background information.[00:20:00]
They’re slices, like, usually you can tell a story in a couple of sentences or less, right? It’s like, you don’t have to give every bit of background information. The other thing is, you don’t have to share it immediately. So, I had a client who had a big trial this year, she has a lot of stories she can tell from it.
She knows that she can share little slices, and she could be doing it now. And it’s, she’s not gonna, like, divulge any confidential information. However, She realizes that if she’d shared it immediately, her client might go, well, is that me and not love it? So she’s logging them for later, right? So we can log them for, that’s why I say when you first brainstorm, go back because you can utilize stuff from your past into the present.
The other thing I would say is if you’re getting information that you’re like, well, this might be too much, like get really specific and then identify, well, what is the actual lesson? And how could I create a fact pattern around it? And what [00:21:00] works really well there is like A versus B. So here’s what I see a lot.
Here’s also what I see a lot. Here’s how you deal with it. Or here’s the approach that I recommend. You can pull back a little bit, but you’re still storytelling because you’re creating specificity around it.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Is
Heather Moulder: that making sense? It
Steve Fretzin: does. And what I like, I mean, from a branding and marketing perspective, brilliant.
From a business development in the meeting with a prospective client to I think there’s too much pitching and selling and convincing and this is why we’re so great and this is, and not maybe enough storytelling and not enough, obviously, questioning. I mean, I’m a big question guy, like it’s all about asking questions and listening and empathy and all those things.
However, there are stories that need to be told and examples that need to be provided in those meetings to make it like not just a, An interrogation feeling type of meeting, it should feel like two friends having a conversation. If you don’t incorporate [00:22:00] examples and stories and pepper people with that, you know, it’s not going to feel as authentic.
Heather Moulder: That is absolutely true. And what I would say, and the way to make these stories really compelling and relatable, and frankly, the way they sell is to a, be super specific in who you’re talking to. And think about what do they need to know? How, why do they need to know this? Only give the information that’s a need to know for the lesson learned, the, the thing they need.
Right? The other thing is, understand that you are not the hero of the story. You, the lawyer, is not the hero of these types of stories. You’re the hero of your branding story. Right? You’re not the hero of the stories you’re telling when you’re marketing. And you know, and trying to tell the client story and have them learn the lesson.
The hero is the client. The hero is the person you’re talking to. So they’re the Luke Skywalker if you’re a Star Wars fan, you’re Obi Wan Kenobi, you’re not the main [00:23:00] character. You are a helper, and You know, the way to do that is to just keep that in mind and then to showcase you, you’re not telling them again.
You’re showing, well, here’s how I think about this and why. And so you need to be very unafraid when telling these stories of giving your opinion, of telling the style, of differentiating your approach versus some other attorneys. So for example, I have a client who he’s a key TAM lawyer. Do you know what that is?
It’s Sublorek and so he helps companies. When people have whistleblower claims and the government gets involved. And, you know, his approach is not the, you know, there’s two types of attorneys in that space who are the defense attorneys. There’s the style at every possible, you know, moment, like push back, be, you know, hard negotiator.
And then there’s his style, which is very different and it’s much more convers you know, I want to be friend, [00:24:00] not friend friends, but I’m going to be kind, I’m going to be open. I’m only open to the things I have to write, but I’m going to be helpful. And he’s found that his clients get better results. They spend less money.
And so when he is telling stories, he showcases that approach and so that people know, well, this is my style. This is how I do things. Not every client wants that. And he’s okay with that because he doesn’t want the client. It’s like, no, no, no. I want to fight back. I want to, you know, I want to do all this other stuff that he thinks is the wrong way about going about it.
Steve Fretzin: So what sort of, we’re wrapping up, like final tips can you share about effectives, storytelling that actually helps you sell yourself, again without selling?
Heather Moulder: So I think really, the biggest tip is don’t forget that you’re not trying to attract everybody out there. Okay. You’re not trying to represent everybody.
Keep in mind your perfect client, and speak very specifically to them. [00:25:00] Every time you’re telling a story. What is in it for them? Not you, but them. And you’re gonna be a lot better at telling a really compelling, good story that connects, and showcases your style, showcases your approach, and showcases the way you, you know, think about things.
Steve Fretzin: Well, really terrific. And I want to wrap up with our game changing, used to be a podcast. Now it’s a book, which is like, I think that’s a be that lawyer first, by the way, where we’re doing a game changing podcast or book. This was actually a podcast that turned into a book called building a story brand.
Can you talk just briefly about that and what that’s all about?
Heather Moulder: So building a story brand really goes deeper into storytelling and how to build your brand off of your own story and then storytelling within your marketing. So if you want to go a lot deeper and learn how to utilize stories and especially how to utilize your own story in a way that connects with people.
And Still Isn’t All About You makes it more about them. It’s a fabulous [00:26:00] book. I highly recommend
Steve Fretzin: it. Yeah, that’s one I haven’t checked out. I’ve put that on my Hanukkah list, if you will. As we wrap up, I want to thank our sponsors, of course, Rankings. io, just crushing it for law firms, especially in the PI space.
And the podcast LawHer, advocating for women to be their best selves and live their best lawyer lives. Heather, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear about more about the coaching you do and you do, you know, a lot of things in, in the legal coaching space. What are the best ways for them to reach you?
Heather Moulder: So you can reach me via email, heather at heathermulder. com. It’s M O U L D E R, not like the X Files Mulder if you’re of that genre. That generation
Steve Fretzin: or
Heather Moulder: what? Of that generation, yes. I’m also on LinkedIn and all my, you know, my website is coursecorrectioncoaching. com.
Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Well, thanks again. I’m excited to be on your podcast.
This is what we call a pod swap, I guess. And it’s just wonderful when two people can get together and collaborate like this and really put out great content. Great advice and [00:27:00] information education for an industry that, you know, really needs it and, and desires it. So I just I’m appreciative of you and thanks so much for coming on the show.
Heather Moulder: Thank you for having me. This was fun.
Steve Fretzin: That’s the thing. That’s our jam. You know, have a little fun, talk a little biz dev and all that. Hey everybody. Thank you for spending time with Heather and I today on Be That Lawyer with Fretzin. I, again, I’m just so thrilled that you’re here. Investing in yourself and your time to take in this kind of content.
And by the way, Heather, do you want to just mention your podcast since you mentioned it
Heather Moulder: earlier? It’s the Life and Law podcast.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And so check that out too, everybody, all this information in the show notes so you don’t have to worry. But thank you for, you know, spending your time and again, don’t be shy about telling other lawyers about this great show called Be That Lawyer so we can continue to build our audience and help as many lawyers as we can.
All right, everybody, take care, be safe, be well. We’ll talk again soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening To Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law [00:28:00] practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.