Hillard Sterling: The Four Pillars of Business Development

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Hillard Sterling discuss:

  • The four pillars of business development and how they interact with each other.
  • Building on your own content with repurposing and leveraging on multiple platforms.
  • How KLTR – Know, LIke, Trust, Refer – is aided by the four pillars of business development.
  • Being proactive in following up on your business development contacts.

Key Takeaways:

  • Give things away in your business development so people know how much they need you to do the rest.
  • Build on your own previously created content. Give people information that they can take and use immediately.
  • Find the right audience for your speaking – those who will get value from your points and are not going to compete against you, but possibly hire you.
  • It is riskier to underpost than overpost. It stays on the radar and keeps you top of mind and present online.

“You could break it down into four different categories of business development work: writing, speaking, posting, and networking.” —  Hillard Sterling

Connect with Hillard Sterling:  

Email: [email protected]

Phone: 312-606-7747

Website: https://www.clausen.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hillard-sterling-84711b85/

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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



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Hillard Sterling, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Hillard Sterling  [00:00]

If you could break it down into four different categories of business development work, one is writing, of course speaking, posting to leverage all of that content and networking. Getting out there, meeting people.


Narrator  [00:18]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:40]

Hey everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you are well. And having a fabulous day. You know, look here in Chicago, we are struggling through our finishing touches of our lovely winters that we have here. But you’re not here for the weather report. You’re here to learn about growing your book of business and being that lawyer someone who’s competent organized and a skilled Rainmaker and as you know, I always try to bring on interesting guests in today’s no different and before I get into the weeds with Hillard a little bit who you’re going to meet soon, I just want to take a second to thank our sponsors legalese marketing and money Penny both of them helping me and helping lawyers across this great land to improve their businesses money penny with their live chat on the website and their virtual reception and and legalese with their website with your social media, your newsletter, your law, medics training, you know just about anything you need to help grow your law practice legally steps in and does it. They are awesome. And Hillard was kind enough to send me his favorite quote, which is maybe more powerful now with what’s going on in Russia and everything. But when you’re going through hell keep going. And that’s a Winston Churchill. Quote, so Hillard, welcome to this welcome to the show. We’re talking to Hillard Sterling. Why that quote


Hillard Sterling  [01:58]

you why that quote, because I firmly believe it, I’ve lived it. There’s nothing more valuable in life and perseverance. Because hell does that. At some point in time, it may seem like it won’t, and can’t, but it will, and it does, but it won’t if you stop fighting. Okay. And I believe that it applies very squarely in our profession. But it also applies to life outside of the office for me, and I think it’s a general theme that I always latch on to, and it gives me great strength. And it always proves itself, correct. Because at some point in time, it may be yours. But at some point in time, the crisis ends and you come out stronger.


Steve Fretzin  [02:42]

Yeah. And we’ve all been through things, people that have listened to my podcast, or read my books, no, you know, some of the things I’ve been through in my life. And look, I’m very fortunate to have a wonderful career and passion for that, and my family. And if anybody follows me on Facebook, it’s kind of big old Pike, the DesPlaines river with my son this past week. So, you know, we have a lot to be grateful for. But when things get tough, you know, we definitely have to persevere and get through it. Do you have a specific thing that happened in your life that you persevered for, other than what we’re going to talk about in a minute with the with, with your guitar playing?


Hillard Sterling  [03:16]

Well, yes, looking forward to that. But yeah, I can give two examples that come to top of mind in the legal profession in my career. One was when I was a young associate, I was with Kirkland analysis. And this was pretty much right out of law school as with a another firm called Ireland Porter, before that. But I went to Kirkland in DC. And then I transferred to Chicago and I was on a team. I won’t name names to be too specific. But let me just say that I was working solidly 18 to 20 hours a day. And that may sound like an exaggeration. Sounds a lot. Yeah, I would get pulled into trials where I was responsible for churning through and at that time, it was all boxes of documents, and doing endlessly thanklessly with zero appreciation and nothing that was immediate on the horizon. That was a relief. So I kept fighting through that I got through those experiences. And I just came out, not just a better lawyer, but a better person, knowing that I could fight through that. And the other professional adversity that that I faced was when I started my own firm. I had left the law, I left the law practice and started my own. I hung up my shingle. And that was really tough work and you have your own gig going, Steve, you know how tough it is. And I know a lot of our listeners know the challenges you face when you have no support and being start collapsing. And the only thing paying your checks is the client. billable hours and the checks that come in from that and I was facing a lot of challenges at that time, in my personal life as well. So it was one of those instances, Steve, where it really took a couple of years for me to get to a point where I started to feel comfortable again, professionally and personally. But yeah, that timeframe was one of the most difficult, not a lot of sleep during those years. And I drew Churchill’s quote, quite frequently, and it got me through it. And when I emerged, it came out the other side, I realized that really, if you follow that proverb, and you never stop fighting, you can defeat anything. There is no challenge that is too significant, too overwhelming to overcome.


Steve Fretzin  [05:42]

Let’s keep going though Hillard into your current role at Clawson. Ian is a technology lawyer, how did you transition from your own firm to to to getting back into the into legal space


Hillard Sterling  [05:54]

with a firm? Yeah, I was facing those challenges. And I actually had a wonderful opportunity coming through my best friend with whom I went to law school, way back in the late 80s, who knew somebody in New York who had a law firm, and he was the managing partner of the firm, and they wanted to open a Chicago office. And that was music to my ears, because I naturally I was a natural at the time, right? They absolutely was. But it also was very challenging, there wasn’t that much of a difference between opening a satellite office in a city and building it from scratch, as compared with what I just went through building my own firm. So but coming out of that experience, I had the tolerance, the the significant work ethic to to fight those hours fight through those days by through those weeks and months. And I was able to build this office from scratch to being a functional, pretty productive office in the firm. So that was a wonderful accomplishment to get back into the law firm space. And for me, it was a lot better. Because as you and a lot of our listeners know, when you’re doing your own thing, not only do you have to do substantive work, you got to do the process to and that is extremely distracting, if not overwhelming, and sometimes a dispositive issue, when you’re really trying to serve clients and also do all the administrative stuff that goes with a law practice. So getting back into that world helped. And but it still was that challenge. And then moving back into normal law firms where I say normal in the sense that I’m joining an office, I didn’t have to build that office. And it may, that practice made me appreciate that format a lot more, because now I had people who could help me. I had paralegals who do a lot of difficult day to day work I had, you know, the mailroom and the copy people to help me prepare exhibits for trials, and do all of the work that goes along with the litigation practice. So that was my transition back into the general, typical law firm world. But I’m glad I went through the process of really building things from scratch, because again, it made me a lot stronger as a lawyer and as person.


Steve Fretzin  [08:09]

And I think today to it for people that are going out on their own. And there’s a lot of a lot of lawyers doing that. It’s so much easier than it used to be in the sense of there’s virtual assistants, there’s virtual paralegals. There’s a lot of options and opportunity for offshore and local assistants so that you can delegate the administrative and delegate the marketing, even delegate some of the legal work and paralegal work. So you’re not working those huge hours. But, you know, we had to claw through things right, 80s and 90s. That’s a different time, for better for worse. So so now let’s, let’s talk a little bit about, you know, your rainmaking prowess, because I think part of of building a firm on your own or building an office isn’t just about doing the work, it’s about getting the work. So what is kind of been some of the things that you have focused on as a way to develop great clients and and keep keep the lights on?


Hillard Sterling  [09:01]

Great question. It goes to the heart and soul of developing business as an attorney. And I really think you could break it down into four different categories of business development work. One is writing, of course, speaking, hosting, to leverage all of that content, and networking, getting out there, meeting people. So each one of those has its place. I know you’ve counsel your clients in all of those different areas, but you have to have all those plates spinning at the same time. You can’t neglect one for the other. And in fact, they build and depend on each other. So for example, you know, get out there and write articles and client alerts. And one thing I learned early in my career when I first started marketing is to give things away. Tell people information that is immediately useful for them so that they have a takeaway. They have a tangible value from what you’re writing or speaking, or posting, but just give them enough so they know How much they really need you to do the rest. So giving things away was a big thing in the.com era when we were hitting the late 90s. And that’s when I really started marketing and building my own practice, and giving things away, there was something I used in my practice, and I still use today. So I want to give people value without having to hire me. So they know they need to hire me to build on that,


Steve Fretzin  [10:24]

you know, I think what we what we’re hitting on two is four key areas that we can break down further. And that’s what I think I’d like to take things is just, let’s focus on a couple of tips on writing in how that breaks down speaking, posting and networking. And I think if we have some shared ideas on those four things, that’s going to be super helpful to the people that maybe aren’t doing anything, or maybe that are only doing one of those four prongs, and not getting quite where they need to go because they’re not able to give away something or repurpose something or leverage it the right way. So when we think about writing, and yes, that’s a giveaway in the sense you’re not getting paid to write, right? You’re not writing in someone’s paying you a million dollars to write an article, right? These are these are things that we’re doing for for brand building and for to build that not only educating people, but also build your brand built as an expert, right to thought leadership. So what’s something about writing that you did, whether how you published it, or how you leverage that writing piece or pieces to get that your your brand built, or actually get business in the door?


Hillard Sterling  [11:28]

What are the first pieces I wrote, and again, I’m in the litigation technology space. So one of the first articles I wrote was how to litigate a technology case. And it played the lawyers, but it also played for me to clients, because they saw that I was giving practical tips to focus in a strategic yet aggressive way to defend these technology companies. So I wrote an article all about how to defend technology companies when they’re sued, and what to focus on what to focus on in the contracts with the focus on the discovery. And that led to a bunch of other offshoot projects, where I was giving tangible tips, like tangible tips, practical tips, here are the five things you need to do in order


Steve Fretzin  [12:16]

and like actionable stuff, not just 20,000 feet, the key step one, do this step two, do that, right?


Hillard Sterling  [12:22]

Yes, no one wants to read a law review article unless you’re a lawyer, and you really need to understand the background of the law. But even then, typically, you’re not going to write you’re not going to read and rely on a piece by another lawyer, you’re going to go to some a treatise, or compilation of cases, those kinds of resources. So absolutely. Steve, don’t just tell people what the law says, Tell them what they need to do.


Steve Fretzin  [12:46]

And and you also mentioned, I think that you publish this in the Law Review, is that the Chicago Daily law bulletin, or where’d you publish?


Hillard Sterling  [12:53]

Yeah, this was actually a practice journal that was in DC at the time. Okay, I wrote this piece. So we it was by the American Bar Association. So but I took excerpts from that, and I would publish it in different trade associations and trade groups of technology groups, and then I would go and speak about those issues. So I think this is something I’m sure you counsel your your clients in the marketing space, build on your contents, put something together, that’s the foundation, but then use that in so many different ways and get out there in the community. And again, tell people what they need to do to succeed in the area, the five tips, the three tips I like, you know, nice, good numbers like three, five or 10, but tell them something, that’s a value that they take away.


Jordan Ostroff  [13:41]

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Steve Fretzin  [14:32]

and I want to hit on one other point when you publish for the law bulletin, a journal the State Bar, whatever it is that you’re publishing, that’s getting out in a different way in the sense of it’s online, it’s on paper, whatever it might be, you can then take your article and then repurpose that in your blog on your website. You can put it in a newsletter, you can repurpose it for speaking so breaking things down and then let me just repurpose leverage harness. Don’t Just don’t throw something up on your website blog that no one’s ever going to read and let it go. Try to get it published somewhere people read it, and then repurpose after that,


Hillard Sterling  [15:09]

no doubt about it, you’ve got to be aggressive, no one’s gonna come to you. If you just put something up there and you hope people read it, they never will. And they certainly won’t act on it. They need to see you as the expert. So that’s my speaking, go into the next area of of marketing and development that we all use here in the law, but I’ve used very successfully because I’ve really enjoyed that process of speaking and you have to, you have to because it goes to that equation that we know improvisers which many of your listeners know about. But it’s it’s a formula that works and it’s, it’s know, like, trust and refer. Okay, KL TR is the acronym, she used to be the name of pro visors, as you know, before the start. Okay, I’ll TR is a great formula because it applies to all of these different areas speaking, writing, posting, and networking. But it applies to everything, I believe in our professional existence, because no one’s going to hire you unless they know like, and trust you. Yeah. And that’s where the referrals come in. That’s when the contacts come in. So how do people know like and trust you, they see you, they interact with you. So you’ve got to get out there and speak, you’ve got to get out there and mix and mingle, you got to get out there and network that other area as well.


Steve Fretzin  [16:25]

I’m going to add a little color to that too. I would also just suggest get out there and speak. But I would be I would try to focus on trying to speak not with your competitors so much. But with audiences that can either refer you or audiences that could actually use your assistance directly. So for example, a vice vice speak at a title company, it’s to their lawyers that they’re adding value for. So I’m in a room, potentially full of prospective clients in the sense of real estate lawyers. That’s a great audience versus me speaking at a coach’s conference for lawyer coaches. And now I’m basically educating all of my competitors. And I know that can still be valuable. If one out of 100 or two out of 100 says, oh, you know, I want to come work for you or I want to, you know, I’ve got conflict work. But can you speak to that a little bit to like finding the right audience Hillard?


Hillard Sterling  [17:16]

Key Point, Steve, thank you, yes, you really have to find an audience that are potential buyers, right. So you need people who are going to get value from your points that aren’t going to use them to compete against you. So I’ll give a couple of examples in my litigation area where I focus on technology space. One group I like to speak in front of is a group called claims litigation management. Claims litigation management is an insurance defense group that’s filled with insurance carriers, and they are a great prime audience for me, because those are my clients. Those are the people that give me cases, I get a lot of my defense cases from insurance companies whose technology insurance gets sued. So CLM is a place of business strategic opportunity with the right audience, I’ll speak to on a monthly basis to a group that is a chief information security officers called the seaso executive network. And these are, again, my prospective clients. Many have turned into actual clients. These are people who day to day have to deal with technology issues in their companies, and to be in front of them and give them tangible tips and advice is invaluable. It’s been a wonderful opportunity to speak to an audience that really is a bunch of buyers, and not just other lawyers, they’re gonna go back to their offices and and either use what you said or not, but it’s not going to get you business. So


Steve Fretzin  [18:36]

do you do I’m sorry to interrupt, do you do anything at the end of the presentation or anything to try to? I don’t want to say the word like hook them in, but something where there’s a reason for them to follow up with you with questions or a reason for them to talk with you again after the presentation.


Hillard Sterling  [18:52]

Absolutely, it’s critical follow up is as important as the event itself. I’ll follow up with the attendees by shooting an article of interest on a topic that they discussed during the meeting. Perhaps it’s something that I have written, or if not just just a timely headline that will show them that importance of taking care of those legal responsibilities that I was discussing. With CLM. I’ll follow up with the different attendees, again, with some good content that I put together, or just to, you know, LinkedIn connection at a bare minimum, you have to do that just to say, Hey, I know you were there. And I hope you got some value from my information. And let’s stay in touch. So without following up, everything fades away. As you know, and I know again, that’s part of your business. Steve is getting people to make sure they don’t just do something and then walk away because that dissipates.


Steve Fretzin  [19:47]

It’s super frustrating to when you’re a lawyer and you’ve been presenting to a certain association or group for maybe for years and you’ve never really gotten anything out of it in the time that you put into it to prepare and show up. Do it and all of that, it adds up and you’re, you know, you’re not billable for that. So, you know, I think, to your point, finding the right audience having a presentation that’s going to be engaging on a topic that’s relevant to the audience in the group, and then having some way of having a next step of follow up so that you’re not just leaving it open. And just geez, I hope somebody calls me from that group. Well, no, be proactive, to email the folks and answer questions and maybe even scheduled some meetings if they have, you know, an interest in learning more about what you do as an attorney in technology, or whatever space you’re in, that you’re speaking about.


Hillard Sterling  [20:33]

I’m glad you mentioned that, Steve, because you want to get in front of these people following up is fine, but it’s not enough. If you’re just doing it electronically or with with an email or with a LinkedIn connection. How many LinkedIn connections do people have, they really go through it. And when they’re looking for a lawyer, they that’s that’s not the value, the value is getting in front of these people. Again, I’d love to find a few key participants in those meetings, to schedule a dinner or lunch, or a happy hour, or put them on an invitation list for a webinar that you’re planning, and you want to put on and then reach out to them individually, personally, with an invitation to follow up on that to build on what you’ve already conveyed to them. But the best ones are the lunches, the happy hours, dinners, breakfast, whatever it is, face to face, there’s no substitute for that.


Steve Fretzin  [21:27]

We’re gonna we’re gonna we’re gonna come back to that in a minute Hillard because I know we’re talking about networking is our sort of fourth prong of our discussion. So we’ve got writing and developing that content that thought leadership, speaking thought leadership, getting in front of your audience, getting in front of the buyers, getting in front of people who can refer you having a good process for following up. And the other thing about speaking and writing that’s going to segue right into the next point that you made of the four prongs is posting. So what are you if you’re not doing anything, and you’ve got nothing to say nothing to educate, nothing to nothing going on, it makes it very challenging to post content on LinkedIn post content online. So talk to talk to posting and why that’s an important element, and how these I would work together in tangent with the other. The other two problems we just spoke about.


Hillard Sterling  [22:16]

Sure, you know, focus on LinkedIn, because that that’s really the preeminent site of posting and context for all of us in our professional lives. And that’s a great forum, it’s turned into it turned into from just a bunch of really a bunch of business cards out there in an electronic Rolodex of sorts to relay a content, valuable resource for people and a lot of people are getting information on that. So posting can be some content that you create an either a client alert, or an article could be part of a presentation that you gave, but post something that’s a headline, and just post that, as well as some headline that’s in your area that you believe your potential clients should know and be sensitive about, and care about. Put that on their posts, once every few days. There are some people maybe who over post, perhaps, because you don’t want to annoy people, of course, but if someone’s going on LinkedIn they want they’re, they’re opening themselves up to that. So it’s much more risky to under post than it is to over post, do something once every few days, at least it stays on the radar, that post may not be the reason you get hired. But the fact that you’re on their radar, you’re top of mind and you’re present, that is going to get them to know like and trust you. So that posting the content to maximize the value of what you’ve already done, or take something from the outside world. And then post that it’s so important to stay in front of these people.


Steve Fretzin  [23:49]

But think think about it like a beginning, middle and end of a story. Right? So like I’m going to be speaking at a title company coming up in a month or a week or whatever, I can post that I’m going to be presenting it this group and I’m excited about it. I can post while I’m right after I present and then I can post after and talk about what the results were what you know, what questions were something interesting from that? Yes. Also your articles, you could break your articles, if it’s five takeaways, you could break that into five separate posts. Yes, you know, so now you’re getting five posts out of an article that you wrote. Now you’ve got between that and the speaking you know, maybe eight to 10 posts that could pop up in a month that you normally wouldn’t have


Hillard Sterling  [24:27]

great points and it gets to this theme of working smart rather than working hard. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [24:34]

Right. A lot of this stuff can be can be retold about repurposing and educating I’m not a big there’s some self promotion that’s going to happen you know when you when you do something you speak or put a book out or put an article or some self promotion. But at the end of the day, most of what you want to put out is is for the benefit in the good of the industry for the benefit and good of the people that are reading it not about what how’s it going to help me sell this or help me close that


Hillard Sterling  [25:00]

Yes, no doubt about it is there’s so many values, so many layers to it. But if you’re if you’re not posting, you’re missing the value of what you’re doing, you’re not getting the bang for the buck. And I said, work smart, not hard, you probably don’t have to write a lot more than you already are to be an effective, more effective marketer and business developer, you don’t have to necessarily write a bunch of presentations that you haven’t done already. It’s using what you’ve already created. And yet, perhaps creating some additional content, but it’s really how you use it and how you focus it and targeted network to get the real value. And it’s about being strategic, because I call it strategic aggressiveness.


Steve Fretzin  [25:44]

There you go. And let’s roll into our last point. And we’ve got a few minutes to cover this before we wrap up Hillard and that’s networking, which you and I are both, you know, pro visor group leaders, I think, I mean, I know I started in your group, Chicago, nine, opened up the North Shore. And so we’re both like, in really good, you know, positions of I don’t say authority, but like we’re we’re sort of like in charge. And being a leader, I think is, you know, there’s some benefit to that, and how we get to know our members and how we add value in their lives. And so, but networking, you know, break it down, like what is one or two things that you’ve been doing in networking, that has really made the difference for you in your career and how you brought in business.


Hillard Sterling  [26:24]

This will sound familiar, because it’s similar to the approach for writing, speaking, and posting. And that is making sure that you are front and center with these people that you’re around and networking with. So first of all, they know what you do. But second, and perhaps even more important, they know you as a person, their sincerity, and authenticity is so key. And I’ve been associated with a lot of networking groups where you didn’t do that you would go to large cocktail hours, for example, and hand out business cards. And at the end of the day, you come home with you know, 30 more cards, and you put them in a big stack and or perhaps you put them in your context, not really valuable. When you’re in a networking group, the best ones and providers a terrific example of that are groups where you meet regularly, both during the meetings, and after, and you get to know each other know, like, and trust again, it goes down to that. So for me, the value of pro advisors, or any networking group is being a person with them, letting them know who you are. And it may be something that’s unusual. For me, though, you know, a lot of people may be a little concerned about going out and telling everyone how much you love the band Rush.


Steve Fretzin  [27:41]

I’ll say I’ll shout it from the road.


Hillard Sterling  [27:43]

You’re a kindred spirit. You are, but a lot of people be like, what, what’s wrong with this guy, but if you don’t care, and you’re proud of it, and you carry it, and you show people what, what you really are what you love to do what you love to listen to what you do outside of the office, that’s the real value, no one is going to necessarily hire you because you’re the best lawyer, they’re gonna hire you because they like you. And they think, Oh, you’re gonna do a great job for me. But also, I’d like to hang out with you. Yeah. And that, to me is client development. And it’s best developing a client and actually developing a relationship and maybe even a friend. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [28:19]

So we’ve got four prongs, we’ve got writing, to get to create content, build that thought leadership, speaking. Similarly, how we’re posting to get that content out, and also to just make sure we’re staying top of mind with people. And then lastly, it’s the it’s the, you know, the face to face that the networking, the building relationships, being able to be authentic with people in your network and developing really good referral sources is, you know, that’s at the heart of what helps business development get across the finish line. And quite frankly, you don’t have to join the golf club. And you don’t have to spend a ton on sports and taking people to games. I think that those days have kind of come and gone, not saying they don’t work and people still do them. But you know, and I love being invited, by the way I’m not. It’s putting that out there. Like if you have a skybox, like my friend, Ken Levinson, I’m there like what do you show up? But but at the end of the day, I think it’s about that, you know, not only the personal connection, but how are you then stepping up and being a giver and adding value for others. And again, the goal is that there’s some reciprocation so that you guys can partner in a true way. Yes, wrap wrap up that, you know, the networking piece and how these four work together, and then we’re gonna move on to discussing, you know, your favorite book


Hillard Sterling  [29:29]

was awesome. Let’s, before we get to the heart of the matter, this whole COVID era, era really has brought opportunities for us, right, and I am a firm believer, one of my other favorite Proverbs, Proverbs, which is an eight from ancient eastern proverb, which is so true, and that is that every crisis is an opportunity. And COVID is certainly no exception with that because it has created new ways for us to get together that are very easy and quite frankly, just about free That is a great way to follow up to network with people to do the follow ups after speaking to, to get together with somebody who you may have gotten in contact with on LinkedIn, and just say, Hey, do you have 20 minutes, let’s jump on a zoom call. And when you do that, I know we’re all kind of zoomed out. But if you’re judicious about it, and you’re in, you’re careful about picking your spots, you can really make a great connection with someone who you’ve never met before on Zoom. By having one of these conversations I’ve made a lot of friends I never would have met without COVID.


Steve Fretzin  [30:35]

I mean, as much as again, as much as I love face to face, and I was in the city for the ABA tech show recently. And it just like the pressing flush the eyes that smiles, the people I met, you can’t you can’t discount how powerful that is. However, the Zoom has opened up the country, the world to people in how they do business. And I don’t think it’s ever going to go back and I have no interest in jumping on a plane to go meet somebody that I can get on and you know, for a 30 minute call and Atlanta or, you know, you know, Nebraska, whatever, and talk and talk shop and it’s it’s not a substitute, but it’s it’s it’s good.


Hillard Sterling  [31:10]

Yes, no doubt about it. And it’s here to stay. Let’s all use it. Yeah, he’s very good. Hey, Hillard


Steve Fretzin  [31:17]

real quick before we wrap up, and we got to get going. But I’ve got a new segment. And I didn’t really prepare you for this. So I apologize, called Game Changing books. Is there a book of business book in particular that you’ve read that you recall, that really got to really laid it out? laid it out? If you mentioned mine, that’s okay, too. But otherwise, you know, there are business books that you any one that stands out?


Hillard Sterling  [31:39]

Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. Aside from your book, Steve, I would have to go to a non business book X, okay, because it’s a story that was it ties a lot of these points together because it also touches rush. Because it was written by Russia’s drummer, not deceased, he appeared, who wrote a book called ghost writer. And the book is all about perseverance and fighting through challenges. Neil Pearce had this terrible tragedies in his life. This daughter was killed in a car accident, his wife died of cancer within the next year. And he wrote this book ghostwriter about his healing, his recovery from that. And to me, that’s a strong business advices it is personal advice. It’s about how he got on the road to find healing now, and how he did that, and the agony that he went through, to get to a point where he actually felt happy again, and you know, at the end, you know, he emerged, he came out the other side. And that resonated with me, for the reasons we were talking about earlier in the podcast. We all go through these challenges, we all go through moments that are calamities,


Steve Fretzin  [32:49]

or it’s like we’ve come full circle from where we started with Winston Churchill to security.


Hillard Sterling  [32:54]

Yes, exactly. And I think they both if they’re both up there in heaven together, I have feeling the suffix of good whiskey and smoking. And finding a lot in common. Yeah, because that’s what period was all about. And quite frankly, you know, I love rushes, music but rushes words which were all written by peers, have that philosophy of fighting, never quitting. Finding yourself, being yourself, honoring yourself and appreciating your own individuality. Those themes run throughout everything we talked about today. And I think everything we do in our offices and outside


Steve Fretzin  [33:32]

just to just a beautiful artist and collaborate around that in that group. And I’m like you a huge fan. I just can’t play into the music. Listen, if people want to get in touch with you to learn more about your practice about you and what you’re doing in technology, what’s the best way to for them to reach you there Hillard?


Hillard Sterling  [33:48]

Thank you, Steve. I appreciate it. anybody who’d like to reach out please do. My email is my first official each. And then [email protected] CLAU sen.com. Just send me an email me on LinkedIn look, look me up because there aren’t a lot of Hillard


Steve Fretzin  [34:05]

Sterling’s. Now that’s not the most popular name in the world.


Hillard Sterling  [34:09]

You probably don’t even have to search for Sterling, like ll ARD, throw it in there, connect with me on LinkedIn, or call 3126067747667747 That’s my direct line. I’d love to meet the people who listen to your podcast, Steve, because we’re all like minded world, kindred spirits at some level or another. Because these people get it. They’re, they’re out there trying to reach people. And that’s what I love to do. And I’d love to reach some of your listeners if they would reach out to me.


Steve Fretzin  [34:40]

Yeah, you’ve definitely reached reach my listeners. I mean, the people listening right now are hopefully taking notes and thinking about all the things that we share today and how they can start leveraging, you know, those four prongs that we talked about in marketing to you know, continue to build that thought leadership and build a practice. So, just thanks so much for sharing your wisdom being my friend. As a leader with me, improvisers I, you know, I know we haven’t spent as much time together as I’d like to, but maybe this summer, we’ll open that up for us and we can hang out, have some more beers and listen to some rush.


Hillard Sterling  [35:11]

I can’t wait, Steve, and I’m gonna hold you to that. It’s been a pleasure knowing you and I look forward to great times ahead. So thank you so much more


Steve Fretzin  [35:18]

to come when it comes to opportunity. Thanks. Thank you. Hey, thanks, everybody, for being a listener for you know, putting me on your on your speed dial on your phone to listen to this show. Be that lawyer. Listen, share with a friend. You know, let’s keep the momentum going. We’re doing great and I’d like to continue to bring on great guests like Hillary to share their secret sauce. So continue to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well.


Narrator  [35:50]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes