In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Howard Ankin discuss:
- The strategic use of media and marketing in legal services
- The evolving role of lawyers in both legal practice and business development
- Building personal and firm-wide brand equity in competitive industries
- Adapting to modern client behaviors and expectations
Key Takeaways:
- Focus on ethical, long-term brand visibility rather than chasing the latest marketing gimmicks. Consistency and integrity build lasting trust.
- Use traditional and digital media together to reinforce brand recognition, especially by being present where your audience already is.
- Develop deep professional relationships by aligning your identity and messaging with authenticity, so clients know exactly who you are and what to expect.
- Stay current on technology and regulations impacting outreach, but avoid tactics that risk client privacy or cross ethical lines.
“There’s no question that the success of any lawyer, anywhere and anytime, comes from having and associating with great people.” — Howard Ankin
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Episode References:
Good to Great by Jim Collins: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996
About Howard Ankin: Howard Ankin is the principal owner of Ankin Law, a leading Chicago-based firm he co-founded with his father in 1997. A third-generation attorney, Howard has deep roots in the legal community and longstanding relationships with many clients. Ankin Law has grown to become one of Illinois’ largest filers of injury and workers’ compensation cases, supported by over 90 attorneys and staff. Howard is also a recognized legal leader and active community member, serving on multiple legal boards and earning numerous professional honors.
Connect with Howard Ankin:
Website: https://ankinlaw.com/
Phone: 3126000000
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/howard-ankin-9671743/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/ankin-law/
Twitter: https://x.com/ankinlaw
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnkinLawOffice/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ankinlaw/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:04]
Hey, my be that lawyer fans, I am so happy to announce that you know, be that lawyer 101 top Rainmaker, secrets to growing a successful law practice has been number one on Amazon for the last few weeks. One of our favorite guests, Walt Hampton, shares about the book. This book is a gold mine for any attorney who wants to grow a thriving, sustainable law practice without losing their soul. Steve has masterfully curated insights from rainmakers who know what it takes. Thank you. Walt Hampton, thank you, everybody. Grab a copy on Amazon today and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:43]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [01:05]
Hey everybody, welcome back. It is Steve Fretzin, and this is the be that lawyer podcast. We are super excited to bring you everything you need to be that lawyer, confident, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. And sometimes I get so lucky when someone says, Hey, I think I’ve got someone for you. And then I go, Hmm, who’s this person that I’m gonna get? And then they say, it’s, it’s Howard Ankin. I go, Okay, well, I’m in Chicago. I know Howard Ankin. Everyone knows Howard Ankin. So it’s just so exciting to have superstars on the show, and today is no different. So Howard, welcome to the show. Good to see you.
Howard Ankin [01:36]
Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin [01:37]
Yeah, yeah. We’re gonna have some fun today. Let’s start off with our quote of the show, which we’ve been doing for a long time now, it’s try your best be everyone, everybody’s friend. That sounds like a quote you probably came up with.
Howard Ankin [01:48]
It did. I got to tell you I was my son is now a senior in high school. Is about to graduate. My daughter’s a freshman. But anyways, when he was starting in nursery school, I dropped him off on the very first day, and it was just one of those things where I didn’t know what to do to say to him, besides, like, goodbye. Yeah, so that’s the quote that I gave him, and I think it applies to a lot of things during the course of my son’s life and everybody’s life. You know, if you try your best and you’re everybody’s friend, usually you’re going in the right direction.
Steve Fretzin [02:20]
Yeah, I have a senior as well. What’s the next? What’s the next step for him?
Howard Ankin [02:25]
Well, as they say, it might be looking like University of Illinois, like the movie.
Steve Fretzin [02:29]
Oh, my God, risky business. Okay, yes, all right.
Howard Ankin [02:32]
But there’s a school out east that he’s we got to decide in a couple weeks. Did he tell him deadline? Yeah, he’s keeping his fingers crossed. So we’ll see where it happened.
Steve Fretzin [02:41]
All right. Good well, good luck, good luck, good luck. Yeah, and you know, my father, the late, great lawyer Larry Fretzin, used to say, if you can’t make a sale, make a friend. And I don’t know that that’s the same, but I think, you know, just the idea that we we need to develop relationships, we need to build friendships, and even against, you know, adversaries, right? There’s opportunities for for friendships and new relationships. So really appreciate that quote, and I’m happy that you shared that with your son. It’s, it’s pretty, pretty wise. So everybody, Howard Ankin is the owner of Ankin Law, been in Chicago for a long time, been a big figure here. Do us a solid and just give us a little background on how you came to be.
Howard Ankin [03:19]
Well, my grandfather, which is my mom’s father, and my father were both lawyers. Okay, so it wasn’t my dad’s dad, but it was my dad’s father in law, yeah. But anyways, in my mom’s world, her father was a lawyer, her husband was a lawyer, and I’m her firstborn son, so I’m not really sure if it was me who always thought when I was going to grow up I was going to be a lawyer, or somehow my mom instilled that in me. But really what I’m doing today is, well, it’s beyond my wildest imaginations of what I would be doing when I got to grow up to be a lawyer, but then again, it’s exactly what I would have hoped I would have been doing from a young childhood.
Steve Fretzin [04:07]
Yeah, do you, I mean, did this stage in your career? Do you feel like you’re more of a lawyer? Do you feel like you’re more of, like a business owner?
Howard Ankin [04:14]
I try my best to be a lawyer and like, if I have, like, my default is to be a lawyer and to be working on cases and practicing law, yeah, although I have all a little over 100 people that are working for me, and so the problems of day to day, keeping the law business moving, that does take, takes a lot just so happens this year, Maybe we’re past the post covid world. I’m set down for probably more cases for trial this year than I ever have. So my focus this year is probably more on law than than than I then I’d like it to be.
Steve Fretzin [04:54]
Yeah, okay, okay, but I know you’ve got people in place, like you’ve made a decision and you’ve put people in place to help you. With, you know, the management of things so that it allows you to kind of go the direction you want to go.
Howard Ankin [05:03]
No question about it. I got the best people in the Chicagoland area that work with me. And there’s no question the success of any lawyer anywhere, anytime, comes from having and associating with great people.
Steve Fretzin [05:19]
Yeah, and Jeff. Shout out to Jeff Shulkin, a buddy of mine going back years. And by the way, his wife, Lisa, is the one who sold my home and helped me buy my home in Fort Sheridan, where I now reside, which I we absolutely love. So shout out to shout out to the shulkins.
Howard Ankin [05:34]
She’s great. And Jeff’s Jeff concentrates in medical malpractice. And he’s not only a great lawyer, but personality wise, there’s nobody better.
Steve Fretzin [05:44]
Yeah, agreed, agreed. Let’s get into the weeds a little bit. Starting off with, you know, when I was, I call it a kid, in my, you know, 20s, I sold Yellow Pages. I worked for Ameritech Yellow Pages. I sold Yellow Pages. And it would be a dream come true to talk to a lawyer or pizzeria or someone that needed full page ads. And, I mean, we’re going back where some people listening are like a yellow pages. What the heck is that? But talk to me a little bit about the sort of the way that things have changed in in the world of marketing for lawyers. Because I know, you know, there used to be a lot of limitations to what lawyers could do, and now it’s, it’s opened up considerably.
Howard Ankin [06:22]
Well, you know, going back in time, you know, there was a case in the early 80s that came out of the state of Arizona where there was a lawyer that in the yellow pages actually put, like a bold ad about being a lawyer in the yellow pages, that it wasn’t just his name and phone number. And you know, they said that lawyer advertising was a violation of lawyer ethics, and case went up to the Supreme Court, and they basically said no lawyers are allowed to advertise. And that basically opened up the floodgates on advertising. And you know, today, some of the biggest personal injury firms in the country were the ones that, you know, jumped on the bandwagon for the advertising. So, you know, there’s a lot of things that even happen today that involve the marketing or advertising the law firms, where sometimes, you know, I’m saying, like, look, I’m never going to do that. And I constantly, like, say that to myself, like, my firm is never gonna market or advertise that way, but I find that it becomes, you know, more than norm, because, like, everybody’s always pushing the envelope, yeah, but yes, things are completely different today, as far as marketing, advertising goes, then, you know, historically, somebody would put a ad in the Yellow Pages.
Steve Fretzin [07:43]
Yeah. So what I mean, obviously, things have moved, you know, to online. And I remember, you know, selling web. I moved from Yellow Pages to selling websites, and they were, like, the first websites that were coming out and everything. People just looked at me like I was nuts, you know, because who’s going to go to this website on this, you know, thing called the internet? I mean, we’re aging ourselves out a little bit here. But, um, so how did you sort of then figure out the the marketing? I mean, did it start with relationships and building your business that way, and then moving into more advertising and marketing?
Howard Ankin [08:12]
So let me ask, let me answer. Let me finish up your last question. Then I’ll get into your second question. You’re saying is like, what’s the difference between advertising today and what advertising or marketing was previously, you know, it’s more than just like TV, radio or billboard today, like we know today that, you know, there could be, like, a major news story, calamity that occurred, that it can occur anywhere in the country, and if something happened at nine o’clock in the morning anywhere In the country, you know, by by lunchtime, if not sooner, there are, you know, it’s up on the internet. It’s posting all about articles about, like, what the liability is for that type of law, what type of cases certain law firms have done previously, so on and so forth. Also, like people can, you know, like geo fence around, like, if there’s a calamity, they could figure out who is, like, who was at that rock concert when something collapsed on it, and then, like, geo fence targeting advertising, ads and so on and so forth, all that’s related to that. So, you know, going from like, somebody having to, like, look in a yellow pages, or hearing advertising on a radio, this is, like, where the advertising is basically putting a street sign up across somebody’s home, like, done, you know, in the ether on the internet in order to reach people to say, hey, We’re the right law firm for you. Yeah, it’s really totally different today than it ever was for my purpose.
Steve Fretzin [09:48]
Okay, so then, so then take us forward. Then, like, what have been the most effective strategies for your firm now, you know, up till now and then, where do you think things are going? Like, where do you see things heading?
Howard Ankin [09:59]
Well, as far as the marketing, advertising of our office, I think we try to do things more traditionally, you know, like, what’s ethical, and then also what may violate, you know, certain technology laws. So like, for example, like in a different time, you might have always had, like, capper chaser, somebody that, like, you know, maybe, like, bought a box of donuts for somebody like, at the local police station, went through the back, photocopied, like, a police report, and tried to, like, get, you know, get a case. Wow. Okay, the modern day world of that is the police report goes online. Like, right, when you’re at the accident scene, you could have people that are hacking into a database pull out that police report, and then you could have somebody that’s, like, actually texting somebody, like, in real time that says, like, hey, I want to represent you in the case. Yeah, my office would ever do any of this out.
Steve Fretzin [11:04]
Now, that seems like the underbelly of the of the profession, right?
Howard Ankin [11:08]
But it was the technology point of it is, what I’m making is, is the the texting of somebody directly. It not only violates ethical laws, but it violates technology law. So for example, like, for marketing, advertising, somebody may be able to come to, like, the Fretz website and like, check out what’s happening now typically, like, you would have to wait, and you would have to put up, like, Here’s my email address or my phone number, and wait to get contacted. What people are doing today is like, they can take that data, where they know who is pinging them, or looking at their website, and then they actually know, like, where that person’s who that person’s name is, address, phone number, you know, so on and so forth. Yeah, they try to where they could be, like, they could try to contact them. And what I’m saying is, like, how people do that can violate a number of technology laws in in trying to, like, contact somebody back who was only looking at you but wasn’t interested in that engagement. So where we’re going with marketing and advertising both from ethical rules and both from technology rules, is the ability with technology to get very aggressive about marketing to advertising to people. That’s where we’re at now, and the law has not caught an up yet to both the ethics and the technology. So it’s where we’re at right now. For some places is we’re in the wild, wild west. Yeah, I’m forgetting the marketing, advertising for legal services.
Steve Fretzin [12:52]
Got it. Got it. Okay, all right. So then don’t give away any secrets, but like so, so are you focused primarily on, you know, pay per click and SEO and those kinds of things are you? Are you doing networking and getting your people out there to meet with other lawyers and be thought of when things come down? I mean, what is it a mix?
Howard Ankin [13:08]
So for me, I mean, my law firm is really probably, like, we’re a decade behind in like, what we’re doing, okay? It’s not, it’s like, for my law firm, we’re just not that sophisticated. Like these things that I’m talking about this is nothing that my firm is doing so, so your general, like your general, like, radio, TV, Billboard, those types of things, that’s what my firm does. But more to the idea of we just want to different than, like advertising injured call me. The idea of the advertising that that I’m trying to do for my law firm is I’m here like a brand, okay, and like, you should just know that this is what I do, and I’m an option for you. And if you need me, call me also with an injury case. A lot of times the success for the field that I’m in, but probably for the success for most fields, okay, is knowledge, is power, and the sooner that a client get the information that they need, okay, that could help them both from the perspective of winning the case, but also from the perspective of feeling self help feeling well, because nobody wants to have a legal matter hanging over the rat. So anyways, from our purposes, we we try to make it where we’re an option people know who we are okay, and try to have that good reputation out into the ether so that they know. Then you ask, how do we? You know? Do we do pay per click, or that type of stuff? Yeah, that moves us a little bit closer to the needle, or closer to the to the button, I would say, where, you know if people are going on, if somebody’s going online, and then they have already heard of us, that’s kind of, you know, that zero moment of truth, where it’s like, oh. I heard of this one before. So, yeah, we do a lot of pay per click and website optimization.
Steve Fretzin [15:06]
Okay, with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. And then what’s your take on how an individual lawyer or maybe a firm develops a brand. I mean, that’s, you know, you’ve got business development marketing and branding. And I think there’s confusion. And people call business development marketing and vice versa. But then we get into what, like, what is a brand and why? How does someone build a McDonald’s built a brand and Tiffany’s built a brand. Mercedes has a brand. Law firms also have brands. How did, but how does that? How do you build that?
Howard Ankin [16:23]
And that’s typically like some like, I find just because, you know, I’m into marketing and advertising, so I’m looking to see what other people do, so that they have their voice. I think some people do it well, and I think there’s a lot of people who may not do it well. So, you know, part of it to me is, if I was going to run a TV commercial, but like, anybody could come from, like, another state and then, just like, put their face onto my commercial, that I don’t think then is something that’s done well. So like, this concept that, like, we’re a hard charging lawyer, we’re going to get you, or all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it’s a brand, but that’s the same type of brand that everybody else has. Okay? I think there has to be a brand where, like, one year brand, we’re a society of specialists. Doesn’t matter if you’re a lawyer or whatever other your specialty is. Everybody has a specialty. And what you really want to know is, when you say like McDonald’s, or you say like any of these other brandings, you know that you’re going to get like, something that really tastes well, that’s going to be very cost effective, that you’re going to get fast if you’re buying McDonald’s. And the way that they do McDonald’s is every single time you eat there, it’s always the same. It doesn’t matter if you’re in small town USA or in the heart of the loop, it’s always the same and it’s always right. So same way with law if you come to this law firm, this is what we do, okay? And whether you’re the most expensive in town because you’re the best or you’re the more cost effective lawyer. And like, whether you know, you know, this is my field of expertise, or that’s my field of expertise, and that’s a lot of times. Like, what I also want to do is I want to affiliate myself, like, you know, I’m on a lot of different law boards, okay? And I even though, like, injury is my field, and I sit a lot on those injury fields, I also sit on a lot of, like, Illinois State Bar and national boards and so on and so forth. Because if somebody comes to me, I’m a little bit prolific, and as far as getting my name out there, but I’m not the best lawyer for everybody, so I want to know other lawyers. And I want to know who’s the person to go to for that case, yeah. And I like, there’s a lot of lawyers who’ve done a very good job of basically saying, for this problem, I’m your guy.
Steve Fretzin [18:56]
Yeah. So I’m, yeah. I’m 26 years old in 1996 and I was in a plane crash in Crystal Lake, Illinois, and I had broken both my arms. Some people know this story a little bit, but I remember my dad, you know again, lawyer pushed a phone to my ear and said, talk to your lawyer. He’s Bob. You know me, Bob. And of course, we know Bob Clifford, right? So, you know, it’s like, you know who is the specialist that was thought of for aviation, there weren’t a lot of calls made, I think there you know. So how you build a brand in a particular niche, or how you build a brand as as you know, someone that’s consistently getting results and has great results for clients, or great service and communication, I think is something that really important. Are those, all the things that you feel like go into your brand, that that you’re able to then put out there in the form of of marketing and advertising and such.
Howard Ankin [19:48]
So one sorry to hear you were involved in an accident. Now, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, right? Exactly, you know, part of the marketing and the branding is also is staying true. To what your market or brand is, like we were talking about before. Like, there’s a lot of people that could do a lot of things to, like, try to get a case, or try to do this, or whatever, you know. So it’s like anything else in life, you know, there’s a lot of times where, like, you know, there’ll be, like, some new new technology or new way to do something. And I find myself a lot of times telling people, I’m, like, it sounds great. I’m sure people are going to, you know, do very well with that, but I just don’t believe in it, you know. So, like, you know, it’s like, just something that I’m just not going to do. So part of the marketing, of advertising for me is, you know, I meet a lot of people, and not just law, but a lot of walks of life where, like, they change the religion, like they change their socks, you know, they change who they are by what it is. You know, I my close friends in life. They’re, they’re still the same friends that I had going back to preschool and kindergarten, you know, like, you gotta like, so maybe that’s just my brand like that. Like, the client knows that they’re going to have somebody that’s going to not only be here for them for this case, but, like, if they call them 25 years from now, and, you know, they they just want to talk about how, like, the the, you know, like the launderer law, you know, you know, room to shirt, I guess I’m going to be there to give them legal advice. Other people are like, I’m the lawyer. This is what I do. And you know, when the case is over, it’s over, it’s different marketing, different branding.
Steve Fretzin [21:27]
Yeah. And I think, I think too, I think, you know, people put out different vibes of who they are, what they’re about, what makes them tick. And I think part of that authenticity, and part of putting that out there is you’re trying to attract clients that appreciate that, or like you, right? So like I’m thinking, like, I want to work with the nicest, smartest lawyers in the world, and I do, and I think that I put that vibe out. And so you know, anyone that isn’t that falling into that category, you know, probably isn’t calling me. I don’t know who they’re calling, but they’re not calling me, which is great, because I’m not, I’m an interesting so I think in your space too, you know somebody that wants, you know, someone that’s gonna, you know, break them over the head with a hammer or a chainsaw or whatever it is that they’re doing, like, that’s going to attract a certain type of person, and then you’re going to attract a different type of that’s what your brand represents. Them different than that.
Howard Ankin [22:17]
Yeah, you know, one of my things here is, like, I, we don’t, with some exception, but I have a lot of people that work for me. I don’t like hiring anybody here. Like, if they go through an interview process, I’m usually, like, the last point of contact where I’m, you know, talking to somebody. So again, whether it’s law or any other field, you don’t want to have the Sunday night blues. Like, when, when that alarm goes off at 530 in the morning, or whatever it is. You know you want to, like, jump out of bed and have a skip for the day. And you know you want to have a zest for life. So especially, especially in law, because it is, it is all encompassing. It’s not only the field of expertise that you have, but who your clients are. If you’re doing this, you know, most lawyers, this is a 15 hour day endeavor, you know, five and a half days a week. So if you’re not happy with who you’re helping, and you don’t like the type of stuff that you’re helping with, your burnout rate is going to be unbelievable, and you’re not going to have the zest for life. So anyways, I find for me, it doesn’t matter what field it’s in any lawyer that I meet, and it doesn’t matter if they’re a traffic ticket fixer or they’re billing at $3,500 now, okay, that same satisfaction the lawyer could have if they feel like I’m the best at traffic tickets, you know, I’m saying. And when somebody has this issue, they’re coming to me, okay, right? And talking about marketing or advertising or building, uh, you know, building a brand. The lawyer that says I’m the traffic ticket guy, that’s a brand, you know, like, I know that lawyer as much as I may know the lawyer that’s billing at $3,500 an hour. Yeah, okay, because people need it.
Steve Fretzin [24:05]
You know, just, I’m gonna throw a little bit of a curveball at you here. I hope, hopefully you’re cool with it. But, I mean, obviously AI is coming hard and fast at us, and one of the things that people are starting to do is they’re starting to search less on Google and more through chat GPT, or some of the forms to get information, to get answers, to find something that’s going to be more of a direct fit. Are you seeing that as a potential benefit or a potential problem in particularly in personal injury, where a lot of people are spending a lot of money in different areas.
Howard Ankin [24:39]
So you know, the chat GPT, that’s like, one of these where it’s like, it’s going to be here, whether you like it or not, and it’s coming, yeah, you know, like any technology where you may not want to be the original adopter, I would say, I think there’s some. Some lawyers that are getting in trouble with yet DBT because they’re trusting it too much, or there was some people like at the beginning, where they were putting information, they were using the technology wrong. Private information was getting out into the ether, and that wasn’t going well either. So I will tell you, for me, my my personal I’m I’m jealous of other lawyers that are highly adopted and into GBT now, and I keep trying to use it more, but at the same time, I really don’t it’s like having a lawyer give legal advice. I don’t really want to question the people that I talk to, if you’re so used to like if you’re so used to trusting people that you’re talking to all the time, and then you use and then you have a technology where you can’t really trust what you’re getting. It’s a but anyways, yes, jet chat, GBT, it’s going to completely transform the world that we live in.
Steve Fretzin [25:58]
Yeah. I mean, I guess I’m thinking, like, all right, I want to take a trip to Europe, and I’m gonna just plug in all of the things I want to do, my behaviors, what I what, what’s important to me in a trip, and if you can’t do that in Google, right, and get an answer. So the idea is that, you know, eventually I could see, you know, essentially this, you know, not only like custom making a trip for me, but like booking everything, like based on knowing me and knowing what I want. And I’m wondering if, in the legal space, the people that are investing in search engine optimization, optimization and pay per click, and people that are counting on something like Google for their their total business, like their 10 million a month, and Google whatever that that may affect their ability to compete, if things change and they’re not, maybe staying up with it. I guess that’s kind of where I was going more more so than how it’s used, sort of on the back end.
Howard Ankin [26:45]
But all I could say is about this is, ultimately, whatever field of law that you’re in, there’s a lot of times where there’s legal decisions that have to be made, and there’s business decisions that have to be made, okay? And on the legal decisions that have to be made, check GBT may ultimately start taking jobs away from support staff in the law where firms may need less of that, because the technology will help, but in terms of the lawyer itself, where they have to help their client make business decisions or life decisions, or, you know, and especially when you have strong attorney client relationships, where the lawyer and the in the client trust each other, that will be more of a focus Now, where the lawyer will be focusing more on business and life decisions with clients. And, you know, the formulaic work of like writing like that, unbelievable brief that will probably end up being, they’ll probably be less focused on that and more focus on on this. And you know, it’s like anything else, you know, you know, maybe we’ll, like, get to more trials or that type of thing, like going forward, because, like, lawyers will have more time for it.
Steve Fretzin [28:12]
Okay, we’ll see last question, then we’ll get to our game changing book. If there was, was there one thing that happened in your career that you either regret or like a mistake you made, or something that just made you better stronger, but you needed to sort of make that mistake to to learn and improve. Because we all make mistakes. I mean, we all have things that happen in our lives that take us back, and maybe it’s a bad hire. I mean, there’s all kinds of stories that I pick up on the show about, you know, just things, but I think a lot of it is what we gain from it.
Howard Ankin [28:41]
I guess for me, maybe it’s just my personality. I always am trying to do it better, you know, I’m always trying to get to the next rung of a ladder. I’m always trying. I’m all about self improvement. And you know, like, at least for me, you know, since I’m the the most imperfect person, I could see imperfection in other people and in other people where, like, they they see that imperfection, and they like they’re mad about it, or they don’t like something about it, or whatever. I just, I just like, take the fact that like, understanding that they’re so good in other ways, but understanding that we’re humans and that this person is not perfect, and then we try to, like, build that person up or make them better. I just hope that people deal with me. I know that I’m imperfect. I’ve always tried to make myself better if I, if I, you know, get up in the morning and I got that zest for life, for the day, and, you know, I made myself a little bit better than I was yesterday. That’s it. But when you say threats, yeah, like, there’s a lot of times where I wish I was a I wish I was a little better. I knew a little bit more before. But then at the same time, when I look at it over a longer period, like a longer period of look back and I’ll just be happy that I eventually got to where I. Where I got to go?
Steve Fretzin [30:01]
Yeah. I mean, do we? Do we spend enough time giving ourselves a break and giving ourselves sort of like a compliment or congratulations? And I joke about my father being someone who, you know, as a lawyer, Father, you know, grew up in the projects in Chicago, and, you know, getting a compliment out of him was, you might as well just pull teeth right out of your face. And I’ve kind of have the same struggle, like giving confidence, so I have to really work myself up to, like, remember how great people are and how much they’ve improved, and how you know, you know that even to your point, imperfections, that’s what makes people human. I love that and but I think we have to make ourselves better, but we also have to give ourselves a break and look at that. Look at where you are, look at where I am, look at, you know, all the good that we’re doing in the world, and then focus on that sometimes, and maybe not the, you know, the negatives so.
Howard Ankin [30:48]
You know, some people, Steve, some people will do a little bit better. Some people will do a little bit worse. But as we started with this, if you try your best, there you go. Everybody’s friend, everybody will get to where they need to go, and it will all work out.
Steve Fretzin [31:05]
Howard Ankin, going full circle. I love it, man. Well done. Well played, sir. All right, let’s go. So let’s talk about good to great. Since you mentioned about, you know, improvements, that’s your that’s your game changing book. You know, I’ve read that. I know we’ve mentioned on the show a couple times that is that you keep going back to is a good read.
Howard Ankin [31:22]
I don’t know if I keep going back to it. I mean, probably because I don’t have enough time, you know what I’m doing today, but I guess it would be a good read, you know, going back to it, but it’s exactly what we just been talking about now, like, everything’s good, but you always want to make it better. Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s really what that, that’s really what that book was kind of about for me.
Steve Fretzin [31:45]
Yeah. You know, I love that, and I, and I’m the same way. I’m my wife gives me a hard time. She’s like, What are you talking about? You’re, you’re killing it with, you know, all the things you’re doing, and new book coming out, and all this stuff coming out. And I’m like, I know, but I continue to now. That’s, that’s, but I think it’s somewhat healthy to, you know, to continue to challenge ourselves and to continue to try to improve and be better for us and for our clients and everything so not a lot, as long as you don’t get too crazy with it. Let’s take a moment. Thank our sponsors. Rankings, io, checking out some great stuff. And pimcon coming up in October, the law her podcast with my friend Sonia, doing great work there. And then, if you haven’t checked out the frets and website, I’m just going to give you give a plug for myself that you know. We’ve got podcast, articles, writing for above the law, we’ve got videos, we’ve got all kinds of great content there. So go to fretzin.com Check that out, and I know it’ll help you figure things out and get better at the business side of lawyering. Howard, if people want to reach out to you, they want to hear more about Inc and law, what are the best ways for them to find you and your firm?
Howard Ankin [32:49]
You could call me at 312, 6 million. That’s 312, you like that? 600000, which is, you know, part of the marketing, advertising, or you could reach me at inkin, a n, k, i n, law.com.
Steve Fretzin [33:07]
Fantastic. Well, thanks, man, thanks for being on the show, sharing your wisdom, taking us through marketing, branding and all the different elements of there and and you know, I’m happy that we got to meet. I’ve heard nothing but great things about you so, so thanks again for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom.
Howard Ankin [33:20]
This, this has been really great. I appreciate you, Steve, having me on the show.
Steve Fretzin [33:26]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And hey, thank you everybody for hanging out with Howard and I for half an hour, you know, getting your your daily dose of medicine, of business development, marketing, time management, all the different things we cover on this show. Highly recommend you go back and listen to some previous episodes, if you’re if you if you haven’t, if you’re new to the show, or whatever, but just so much information and great stuff here. So thank you. Everybody. Take care. Be safe, be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [33:53]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends, for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.