Jason Levin: Getting Out of the Bermuda Keep In Touch Triangle

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jason Levin discuss:

  • Always be chipping away as you are waiting with hope.
  • Self-selecting our next opportunities.
  • Developing relationships to develop business.
  • Using your memory to your advantage in relationship building.

Key Takeaways:

  • Every lawyer has the capacity to do business development, it just isn’t often on their radar as it isn’t something that was taught to them previously.
  • Regardless of an attorney’s personality type, they have the ability to build relationships.
  • Most people are going to be polite when you reach out, even if it’s been years. Social science says people love connection and nostalgia.
  • The best CRM is the one that is used. It doesn’t need to be fancy, it just needs to be organized and used.

“We all have our own Bermuda Keep In Touch Triangles where you are trapped in your own head because you don’t know what to do. The emotions around the triangle that are completely normal are guilt, fear, and worry.” —  Jason Levin

Connect with Jason Levin:  

Website: https://readysetlaunch.net/

Email: [email protected]

Book: https://readysetlaunch.net/relationships-to-infinity/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonlevincareercoach/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasoncareers

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/readysetlaunchllc/

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing: https://legaleasemarketing.com/

Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.




attorneys, business, people, relationships, lawyer, law firms, jason, steve, talk, legal, book, touch, shawshank redemption, person, mba, marketing, hear, high school, tipping point, connection


Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jason Levin, Jordan Ostroff


Jason Levin  [00:00]

And we all have our own Bermuda keep in touch triangles where you are trapped in your own head. Because you are paralyzed by this list and I don’t know what to do. Yep. And so the emotions around the triangle that are completely normal are guilt, fear, and worry.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for thrilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. This is my announcer voice and we’re going to have some fun today. Whether you like it or not, we’re going to have some fun. And the reason I know that is because I’ve got a super fun guest that I heard actually on the unbuildable hour with my friend Chris Anderson. And listen, you guys have been listening to the show for a while I think. And it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and part of that journey is enjoying the process, enjoying learning, business development, networking. I know it seems like work, but actually it can be a lot of fun relationships are fun. And so we’re going to stop selling and convincing and talking. And we’re going to spend some time listening, and we’re going to spend some time building some common ground with others. That’s really the key to all of this. And I’m going to introduce Jason in a minute. Horse wouldn’t be the show without talking about my lovely sponsors. We’ve got legalese marketing, helping me and attorneys all over the country with their marketing endeavors, and of course, money, Penny, who’s doing that live chat on my website, and also the virtual reception. So if you’re tired of paying someone for answering phones or not answering phones, you might want to consider money. Penny. All right, Jason, say welcome to the show, Jason live in your quote of the show is unique. And the reason it’s unique is because you quoted Tom Petty, good for you, man, the waiting is the hardest part. And why do you first of all welcome and then why that quote? That’s so interesting.



Steve, it is a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I love the introduction. Love how you talk about listening. Really? I mean, that’s just like the key to have at all. But, you know, what was that? You talking about? I’m already way past anything. You’ve said, This podcast is gonna be good. Nobody you when you ask for a quote. I mean, my mind always goes to Tom Petty. Because when he wrote the song, the waiting, I mean, it was really a business development song because there is so much waiting that goes on. If you are a lawyer that’s trying to do business development, right. And the waiting is the hardest part. If you’re doing an outreach to have a meeting with somebody, you need to wait, if you’re putting out a proposal, and then you need to wait. You’re trying to develop and get more business from a current client and you need to wait. The waiting is the hardest part. Right?


Steve Fretzin  [03:13]

It’s super frustrating.



Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, in all the work that I do with attorneys and law firms, there’s a lot of waiting. And I think we need to talk about that. Like, there’s so many other you know, if you’re not waiting, you know, of course, you need to be doing actions around the waiting, but you know, putting things out into the universe, these things take time. So, I always I’m


Steve Fretzin  [03:39]

gonna throw a wrench in right away, listen to this, okay, it’s my mind, you might go right past it. The hoping is the hardest part, hoping that the business is going to come in hoping that the price is going to return your call. They’re going to take the meeting when they say I’ll think about it, maybe I’ll get back to and you think that’s a positive thing that they’re interested when in reality they’re not. So the waiting is the hardest part but I I think the only good hoping was done in Shawshank Redemption with Andy to frame he hoped and it actually worked out he had to put some muscle into it. But he worked it out. For most lawyers waiting for business and hoping that business is going to come in that might also be the hardest



part. But in Andy do frame in the movie, that’s my second favorite movie, okay. second favorite movie is Shawshank Redemption every single day. And he was chipping away, chipping away, chipping away. And he was waiting. But he was chipping away. And he saw it the entire time that there was going to be a moment where that opportunity where he could leave that you know, incredible prison. Yeah. And so, so yes, he had the hope. But you know, it was a daily activity. You know, he would chip away and then he would give a little bit of that out in the out in


Steve Fretzin  [04:54]

the recess area where you were with the gravel out of his pants in the recess. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Oh my god, like shake



See no I, I was not expecting to talk about Shawshank Redemption. But I mean, it’s an incredible movie.


Steve Fretzin  [05:06]

I wonder if there’s a I wonder if there’s an article, there’s probably an article that you or I could write pretty easily around the comparison of Shawshank and business development. That might be interesting. Maybe we’ll call after that. Boom. I’m Steve. Okay, I’m on board. I’m on board. We might have something here. No, but you’re good. Yeah. You go.



No, but I think that when you’re talking about hoping, I mean, it’s a mindset piece. It is it is a mindset piece and having that mindset that in an eventual, eventually it’s going to work, right? And if you believe that, eventually it’s going to work, then you can hope and wait at the same time.


Steve Fretzin  [05:45]

Yeah, the other thing I try to talk to my clients about is, is waiting, yes, I get it, it’s going to happen. But you know, the important this is probably a great lead. And I want to take a step back in your into your background. But of course, we jumped in real fast that I try to work with my clients to always have a next step. Because if it’s like, you know, let’s just touch base in the future, let’s touch base in a couple of weeks, is really soft. And then people, you know, just just, you know, get busy and they forget or they move on, we always need to have a next step, if there’s something there, right. Now, you do



need a next step, and it needs to be a natural next step. And that’s where the business mindset of the attorney needs to make sure that they’re setting themselves up so that they can be anticipating things about the organization. Yeah, right. And that happens when, you know, you might be a partner that’s a specific in your practice, and all of a sudden, you become a relationship partner for the entire piece of business, and making that shift and seeing, you know, what’s publicly available? And how can I be anticipating the needs of this client? So yes, there’s always and when you think about next steps, it’s how can I think more about the issues of the folks that are in house and get more into their shoes? That’s a great point, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [07:06]

Yeah, so I think I think, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna take a deeper dive into relationships, networking, the things that you’ve built your business and your book around, but let’s go and take a step back in time. And let’s let’s first of all, you’re you’re a fairly new author, that’s the books fairly new the relationships to infinity, there it is, boom, okay, and be in before that you set up ready, set launch, you’re the founder of that business. And, and take us back to your to your, your beginnings and how you ended up getting into coaching and building out the company.



So, so for me, where it really started was high school, you know, all the way back. And I’m growing up in northern New Jersey, and I’m the son of a garment manufacturing expert. So the way we would go to the grocery store, or the department store was entirely different because my dad, my dad’s company made bathrobes, and like high quality bathrobes. So when he lost the only job that he had, it was it was difficult. And so we needed to make transitions. And I just got really interested in, in business literature. So I’m in high school, and I’m reading The Wall Street Journal, Fortune and Forbes. And everybody is talking about their networks, their mentors, their relationships. And so in high school, I’m taking all this in, I’m like, What is this mean? What is this really, really mean? And I had a babysitting business at the time, I was one of the few, you know, high school guys that could get you know, kids to bed on time. Well, you know, you can


Steve Fretzin  [08:39]

always tell a Gen X person right off the bat thinking about business in high school babysitting business. Yeah, me too, man. I was I was working at McDonald’s. I was babysitting. I was mowing lawns. I was making dough. I told my teenager this recently, and I don’t know. You know, I know that you also coach athletes and stuff. But I was telling me like, I started working at the same age as you because I never wanted to ask my dad for money. Yeah, the whole ordeal of having to talk to my father who grew up in the projects and has a whole weird relationship with money. Like that was that was not a conversation I ever wanted to have again. So I said, You know what, I’ll just work. I’ll make money and I’ll never have to deal hey, I want to go give me $3 or $5 never wanted to nickel and dime the old man. So anyway, I just totally interrupted your thing. But babysitting business was babysitting business.



And before the babysitting business in seventh grade, I had a tic tac sales business, Tic Tac Toe resale business, my mom and I would go to the supermarket, and then I would be selling them in middle school. And and I had this really big tic tic tac resale business to the point where there was a line by my locker. And one of my teachers like what’s going on here? And the very next day, I got shut out. I got closed down on the morning announcements in middle school, they announced the tic tac man was out of business.


Steve Fretzin  [09:59]

You’re gonna have To set your shop up with a little table outside of Prem out the school premises,



yeah. So, so the, for the rest of days, anybody that graduated high school from me, I’m known as the tic tac man. Oh my god. So, so yes, so I’m babysitting and lo and behold, I’m babysitting for this law firm partner at a big New Jersey law firm. And she said, Listen, if you can get my kids to bed on time, you can help manage my files. And so my first office job was being the file clerk for the real estate section. We’re the largest


Steve Fretzin  [10:28]

law firms in New Jersey crazy. What a crazy go. Yeah.



So I, I started in legal and legal jogger than anybody. But, you know, in terms of my own evolution, I’ve always been interested in all things, you know, career business development related, because at the end of the day, we are self selecting into our next opportunities, right. And so So my background, you know, started at Accenture before it was Anderson Consulting. Went on to RSM which I was actually an RSM Paris office, it got taken over by KPMG. So I started in professional services, right. And so I know what like being client centric means and being billable. And, and, and you’re, you know, there were certain times I remember the project I was on, we were talking earlier, I was based in Phoenix, I was on a project where we went 24/7. And my manager said, Alright, I want you to start at eight in the evening, for the next three months. And I said yes. And so because we were a global project, and we needed to make sure that things were operating in a certain way. So that notion of commitment and professional services was really was really there. What got me into coaching was actually after my MBA, when I had I did my MBA at Georgetown, I moved back to DC to be with my attorney, spouse. So I’m part of a large diaspora of people leave living out of DC area, you know, their attorneys. And it was actually the Georgetown MBA Career Center that reached out to me and said, Listen, come coach, because we remember what you did when you were in business school, you were helping all your classmates, you know, find jobs, and having that MBA and having that brand management background. What I was also realizing is that people were coming to me for Latham and I want to have you Jason, you’re really good at the people think, how do I market? How do I sell? How do I and you know, one turn to the next to the next then all of a sudden, I’m, you know, poaching attorneys. I’m doing that. Yeah, I got pulled into


Steve Fretzin  [12:36]

I got pulled into it, too. It’s, you know, who thought it was a thing? I never did. I never thought legal was a thing. I you know.



Yeah. I mean, you know, I’ve been on, you know, last couple years have been on the board of the Capitol chapter, the Legal Marketing Association, you know, legal, like legal marketing, nobody talks. It’s one of the best kept secrets out there, that there’s a lot of interesting things that go on within legal marketing. Right. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [13:03]

So I did that for a bunch of years. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s a critical Association, especially if you’re trying to network into law firms. If that’s your jam, you kind of got to do that. If I work, I work solely with individual attorneys. So for me, it was less less interesting and impactful, but I think it’s definitely in the top three best networking groups to join if you’re in the legal marketing space.



Yep, no, I love lm a huge fan of LMA and and I feel really blessed. You know, my relationships with law firms came from being a sales Exec. Before I started my my business I [email protected]. I was both dot coms, DC office. And so vault rate and ranks law firms. I used to go to all the legal conferences, and who were my touch points, it was the hiring partner, who was the head of recruiting are head of PD or head of diversity. And, you know, all the while I’m like, wait a minute, I really understand, you know, the different aspects of of a law firm. And so it was just a natural extension to coach attorneys, and being married to an attorney. I know how attorneys think I mean, it


Steve Fretzin  [14:15]

presumably you probably understand their struggles. And yeah, you know, again, I the way I’ve described it in the past is that when you’re dealing with like salespeople, they’ve got all these bad habits that they carried over five or 10 or 15 years and a career lawyers generally, you could tell me how you’re you feel about this. They have bad habits, but they’re, it’s not because they’ve had so many trainings that have overlapped, it’s because they’ve had no training. Right? They never learned in law school. They didn’t learn at the law firm level, right? So you and I are coming into this and in many cases, it’s like a whiteboard that hasn’t been written on yet. And you and I can kind of work through you know, here’s how you plan execute. Here’s how you build relationships in a way that’s going to actually



produce. Yeah, and they all have the capacity to do so. but it’s just not on their radar.


Steve Fretzin  [15:01]

Yeah, they all have a level of interest or motivation. Otherwise it’s, it’s not happening.



Yeah, they all have the capacity to do so. It’s just something that, you know, I’ll never forget. So Steve, I joined LinkedIn, January one of 2004. Okay, so my member number is 141,272. Like I’m


Steve Fretzin  [15:23]

okay. Like early LinkedIn. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, early,



like early early. And I’m in business school, my wife’s in law school. And I said, Babe, you know, 2004, there is this thing called LinkedIn, you got to get on it. And what was the response was like, not now I’m studying for torts. You know, and I think that, you know, again, it gets back to that relationship orientation, and what relationships can do. And so I think that, you know, regardless of an attorney’s personality type, they have the capacity to build relationships, they really do.


Jordan Ostroff  [16:03]

legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build a practice of your dreams. We help through the entire process, from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese marketing.com.


Steve Fretzin  [16:26]

Hey, Steph, tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms


Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [16:30]

where the call handling and live chat experts and Moneypenny receptionist can ensure that your calls are directed to the right person seamlessly saving you time and money. Steve, did you know that 69% of people don’t like to leave a voicemail?


Steve Fretzin  [16:43]

I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?


Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [16:49]

We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this add on Steve’s podcast.


Steve Fretzin  [17:03]

Very cool. Thanks. So let’s educate the legal community real quick on on a couple of important tips or ideas on relationship building, because I think that’s your main that’s your book. And that’s your sort of your your big your big jam is, you know, right developing relationships. That’s the key to developing business me you don’t you don’t have one without the other. So what are kind of the top two or three things that you are regularly spouting off with attorneys to help them understand not only relationships, but how that leads to business.



So when I talk about, you know, when I think about relationships, when it’s about the other person, not yourself, and then the next thing I talked about is gratitude. What do you want a sense of gratitude? You know, I often talk about appreciation as currency, and you have this amazing currency that you can be leveraging, and, and who are going to go out and thank. And so what we’ll do is, you know, too often, the classic DVD is like, I go make a list. It’s like, yes, you need a list. But you also need the mindset of what are you going to be doing with that list? And who do you start with? And so when you’re talking about attitude of gratitude, you know, who are those mentors who’ve been there for you? Who are the people that you know, like and trust, it’s always easy to start with the warmth and friendliness first, and then expand out from there. So So for me, it’s it’s really looking at, okay, high school, college, law school. And then, you know, depending on how long you’ve been in your firm, or in multiple firms, looking at the people that you’ve worked with over the years, and that’s where you start, you start with the people that you already know. Right? It’s amazing, like they, because what they trust in you is not you know, too often, attorneys will think about competence, when they really should be thinking about character, right? The quality or character, because there’s probably a lot of different attorneys that do what they do. But there’s a personality fit with each individual. And typically, attorneys underestimate that they underestimate their own character, their own personality and why people work with them.


Steve Fretzin  [19:20]

So yeah, and here’s the thing, too, they they may make that list, a lot of law firms say, Hey, make a list of all the people you know, and they give that kind of advice, and then the lawyers stuck, because the next question is, Alright, great. I’ve got this old friend from high school or college that I was very close with at the time. What do I say? What do I do? How do I get that inroad? And you and I would say that, you know, blindfolded and turned around 10 times with a, you know, whatever. But for lawyers that are uncomfortable with the notion of reaching out to people they haven’t talked to in a long time. What’s your advice for them to get that conversation restarted?



So there’s two concepts I talk about in the book, because a lot of my book is based In social science, so the first piece is there are things that go on in people’s heads while you’re describing on like, oh my god, what is going to happen when I reach out to this person? And so I have a chapter called The Bermuda keep in touch triangle. And we all have our own Bermuda keep in touch triangles, where you are trapped in your own head, because you are paralyzed by this list, and I don’t know what to do. Yep. And so the emotions around the triangle that are completely normal, our guilt, fear, and worry. And so often people feel guilty because they are the ones that have let the relationship just go. And it wasn’t like an abruption. You know, this abrupt thing that happened, it just fizzled. So, fear, the anticipation of a net, you know, we were talking earlier about hope, right, and hoping often the fear is based in something negative, that’s going to happen.


Steve Fretzin  [20:58]

And they’re not going to respond, or they’re going to respond negatively, I guess. Yeah, it’s mostly about just they’re not going to respond.



And then it becomes a worry. Okay, so, so the notion of how to break the triangle, there’s a lot of research around journaling, just, you know, a 15 Minute Journal, I, if I reach out to this person, what’s the most likely scenario, right? And to get to the most likely scenario, you need to create two crazier scenarios. There’s an ultimate negative scenario, the craziest negative scenarios, I reached out to this person, the person reaches back, and they’re like, Oh, my God, why the heck did you reach out to me, I’m calling the cops. I don’t want to ever hear you again. And that’s like, not gonna happen. It’s been filed. Exactly. And then in your head, the other side is, well, what’s the most positive thing you reach out to the person you’re like, Oh, my God, thank you for reaching out to me, here’s $10 million. I’m gonna send you on a cruise to Hawaii. Thank you so much. I’ve been waiting for this email from you. And now it’s here in my life. Leads, I am going to name the next Stadium after you. And that’s the other ridiculous, you know, end of the spectrum. And then you think of what’s the most likely scenario, you send an email? And they might respond? And if they do through the Great, let’s catch up. So


Steve Fretzin  [22:22]

yeah, John, it’s, you know, that it’s so true. I mean, same thing with with most things that we fear in life, public speaking and other you know, talking to a girl at the bar when you’re in high school or whatever, high school or college. Yikes. For me, it was just saying, I understand I the growth on the look, or anyway, I’m off track there. But it’s it’s it’s all you know, ridiculous stuff. That’s not going to happen. So we just have to pull the trigger. And I think it’s sometimes comes down to just having some decent language in that email, you know, Hey, I saw you pop up on LinkedIn. I went holy mackerel, it’s been years I have I can’t believe it’s been this long. We really would, you know, should catch up. Because, you know, I think there might be some synergies in what you’re doing and what I’m doing. You know, here’s some dates and times, let me know what you think. What’s going to happen? Really, right. Jason? I mean, it’s a joke. It’s, they’re going to respond. They’re going to be polite. Most of the time. Yeah.



And one thing that I found in the social science that you can add to the email is nostalgia. Mm hmm. Yeah. So and you’re starting to see more and more come out around professional nostalgia or personal nostalgia. I remember you are you remember that time when there was that song that came up? I had this meal, we used to, you know, we used to go to cheap cheese and order the Cinco sampler because we couldn’t figure out what appetizer you know, whatever those things are, they connect you to the other person. And we often talk about, let’s connect. And what is the notion of connection? The the underlying piece of connection is our memory to each other? Right. Yeah. So So being active around sharing your nostalgia, in addition to your gratitude is actually a great way to reintroduce yourself. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [24:10]

It’s like I said, it’s a pretty unique kind of thing you can add that’s personal, that’s going to reconnect and re establish that rapport. Right. That’s, that’s, that’s fundamental. That’s, that’s Yeah, exactly. Yeah.



That’s connection. Because my god on LinkedIn, like you’re getting sold on LinkedIn, I’m getting sold on LinkedIn, I want to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn, let’s connect. The word Connect is even being overused now. Right? For me, connection is the most foundational thing you can ask to another human being is like, what do you remember about each other? Why do you like each other? What’s something about them that you are happy that they have? And to remind them of that? That is connection?


Steve Fretzin  [24:52]

All right, so let’s fast forward. Jason. You’ve reconnected with the friend. You’ve established that there’s some ways you can help each other or just just to Was fun getting back together, this could be a client, this could be a friend, whatever. And then how are we staying in touch with you? Because isn’t that one of the greatest challenges that we have and that professionals have that are busy? Is how do we aren’t we reconnected with this person? Great. And then we don’t see him again for 10 years, right? Or we don’t talk with them again. So what was the point? It’s almost like, you know, the ship passing in the night at that point, we need to understand how to keep in touch. Sure. And then it



becomes a function of how do you set up your own reminder system? Yeah. What it and you know, you probably use a CRM or customer relationship management tool or a contact management system or CMS, you know, and I’m always in the camp that whatever system you have, could be, you know, as basic as an Excel file, right? Yeah. That whatever, you know, everyone’s like, Jason, what’s the best CRM? The best? CRM is the one that’s used?


Steve Fretzin  [25:56]

Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they’re not in the legal industry? I mean, I don’t know if it’s, if it’s 5%, maybe less, you have attorneys that are actually using some type of software to keep track of contacts, clients, pipeline, etc. Right. Right. I make up numbers like that, Jason, but I always feel confident when I when I make them up?



Well, I wouldn’t be surprised. I wouldn’t be surprised. Because often, to help my clients get organized, we come up with some type of system, whether they’re using the firm system, or an Excel file system, whatever the system is, but I think, you know, when you say the word system, it’s like, Oh, my God, this is so complicated. And the reality is, I mean, what’s the base of anything? It’s the person’s first name and last name, their email address, their phone number, their postal address, and then like a notes field, and a date last contacted? Yeah, right. And some version of that. And then to remind yourself, all right, one of the things that you guys talked about, and what should be on your radar when you know if this is something professional, what is that next natural step? What is that? And how is that going to influence you? So for me being organized is the most important piece in all of this.


Steve Fretzin  [27:14]

So yeah, it doesn’t matter if you have a software or an Excel spreadsheet, a Word doc, you’re using your calendar, you need something in place, so that you don’t lose those connections. Because I think I think that’s really the key to business development, getting referrals, staying top of mind, if you’re not doing any of that, then you’re really putting those relationships at risk, and you’re putting your business development efforts at risk, because you’re not, you’re not staying on top of it the way that it needs to be done.



Sure. And it’s not like, you know, with every person, it’s every day or every week or every month, but you know, the end, you can decide for yourself how you want your touch points to be right. But at the end of the day, you know, if you look on a, you know, often when I’m working with attorneys, it’s like, Alright, on a weekly basis, can you at least get one touchpoint from someone on your list, with, you know, some type of appreciation or sharing an article or some type of touch point to let the other person know that you thought of them. Right. And that’s, that’s what we all want is just to be thought of, right.


Steve Fretzin  [28:17]

And if you really want to take it to another level, and you do decide that you want to software, I mean, they they have you can add information, you know, you got your MBA at Georgetown, your wife’s an attorney, you lived in in Scottsdale, things that I’ve heard you say just over the course of the last 30 minutes that I’ve taken notes on, if I add those notes into my CRM client relationship management tool, the next time we talk, I can ask you, how’s your lawyer wife doing or, you know, as an MBA working out for you, whatever, that’s stupid, but you’re right, right, right. Yes, that I’m that I’m bringing up things that are topical, that could be names of kids, it could be birthday, you know, the release of your book, these are things that matter to two people. And that’s going to that’s going to, again, connect you and bond you in a way that, that just saying, Hey, how’s it going? How’s, you know, how’s it going in, in DC?



It’s not the same? Well, you know, and it gets back to, you know, often when I’m working with attorneys that want to show how smart they are. Right? And they are, in a lot of ways, they are smart. But the the other piece is the reminders of the memories of the people they’ve interacted with. And that’s also smart and convincing attorneys that that’s also a sign of their intelligence, to actually use their memory for good. And to come up with a system to do so.


Steve Fretzin  [29:37]

Yeah, memory or again, you know, some some cheat sheet some, you know, there’s, you know, ways to remember people and be able to reconnect with them very quickly. And if you’re looking to get get a general counsel to refer you business, and it might take years to do so. But you’re remembering the general counsel’s kids, you know, kid likes to fish or that He’s an avid golfer, or that his wife isn’t Attorney at a big firm, these are all things that are going to help to to really continue to drive home that you listen that you care that you’re interested. And what half the battle? Right?



Yeah, I mean, you want to take the General Counsel example. I mean, one of the things that I think is a great way to connect with somebody is like, what are their causes? What are their areas of philanthropy? What are their CSR initiatives? Are there things that you and your firm could be doing to be supporting that as a way to create more connection and alignment? So, yeah, there’s there. And that goes back to just being curious and hearing the person talk. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [30:41]

Well, listen, Jason, we’re wrapping up our time here, Game Changing books. That’s a segment that I do and yours is pretty famous one tipping point by Malcolm Gladwell. Talk to me about that, and why you why you submitted that book,



tipping point changed my life. And actually, in writing the book that I wrote, I started to realize how much a tipping point changed my life. So tipping point came out in 2000. And again, my wife remembers because I was talking about tipping point throughout business school in law school. And so what tipping point does, I think and Malcolm Gladwell does very, very well in describing three types of people, salespeople, mavens, connectors, salespeople are the ones that sells ideas Maven, to your technical experts knowledgeable about information. And then your connectors are the ones that bring people together. And underneath that connector topic was the research from 1973, from Mark Granovetter, who talked about the strength of weak ties. And in this house, and in many other houses that my wife and I have lived in my wife, he hears me talking about the strength of weak ties all the time, all the time. Because what the notion is, is that, you know, too often, we want to go to people we know very, very, very well and stay within that tight circle, when in reality, the strength of weak ties, talks about the importance of acquaintances that are able to help you go from one point to another. And so, you know, it’s been over 20 years since I read tipping point, but it genuinely changed the way that I think about people about relationships, and just in general, and approach to you know, waking up in the morning. So I love the tipping point, I think it’s a seminal book.


Steve Fretzin  [32:31]

There you go. So game changing book, we’re not joking, it’s a game changer for you. And I think other people that have read it, I read it years ago, I’m a fan of him and paint and a lot of those, you know, the thinkers in the space, that really give us perspectives based off of research and based off of, of, you know, kind of, like, you know, just philosophies that we may not have considered,



oh, yeah, I mean, pink blurbed, my book, on that impression. So, it’s by keeping in touch, it’s by keeping in touch, I kept in touch with him for about eight years. And I showed him what I was doing. And it’s a Yeah, I love the big thinkers, I’m in your camp. Now. I think


Steve Fretzin  [33:08]

it’s so So Jason, people want to get in touch with you, I know, you have a lot of different services. And if you just want to share briefly about what you know, the services you offer, and then how people get in touch with you, because I think, you know, there’s a lot of value to add to the legal community to reach out to you



know, I appreciate that, Steve. So my website is ready, set launch.net. And people can take a look at relationships to infinity on Amazon, and wherever books are sold online. If you’re an attorney, working in a law firm, you know, feel free to consider me as a speaker or a trainer for either your practice group, and also as a potential coach, or the group coaching or individually, when you’re looking to really take your practice to the next level. So, ready, set launch.net My email is Jason at Ready Set. launch.net. Happy to have a conversation.


Steve Fretzin  [33:58]

Yeah. Well, thanks, man. Thanks for being on the show. I’m really glad we connected and again, you know, thanks to CRISPR Anderson, for having you on unbuildable hour because I’m an avid listener. And when I hear somebody that really can talk intelligently and and it has a lot to share as it relates to relationships, networking, etc. I get greedy, and I say, Well, I want them on my show. That’s what happened. That’s kind of what happened. That’s exactly what happened here. And I just appreciate that you’re helping the community and an industry that really has been underserved as a relates to the kinds of things that we teach the business development, networking marketing skill. So it’s, it’s a very, as noble as it is to be a lawyer. It’s also very noble to help lawyers on the soft skills.



I hear you. I hear you, Steve. Good stuff. Well,


Steve Fretzin  [34:43]

thanks again, man.



Thank you. I appreciate being on be that lawyer. Thank you very much.


Steve Fretzin  [34:47]

All right. And for all of you listening, I have my usual page of notes of takeaways and ideas and things to really consider, especially if you haven’t been keeping in touch with people and you’ve kind of let things let things go because you’re busy and unbuilt in on hours have been outrageous lately. We need to take a step back and consider our relationships. Consider how we’re touching people consider how we’re making a difference. And that’s really going to be a big factor in how you grow your book of business over your career. So listen, you know, it’s all about being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be well be safe. We’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [35:31]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes