Jen Lee: Innovation in the Legal Industry

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jen Lee discuss:

  • Breaking the mold of traditional legal molds within ethical guidelines.
  • Legal models that are changing the game for attorneys.
  • The growing demand for legal services in underserved communities and non-traditional markets.
  • How COVID changed the legal landscape.

Key Takeaways:

  • The billable hour contributes to lawyer burnout and work-life imbalance as attorneys feel pressure to work long hours to pay off high student loans and meet law firm expectations.
  • Some variations for fee models include flat fees, hybrid, unbundled services, subscription models, and passive income (such as a sponsored podcast, a course, a book, etc.).
  • Part of your job as a lawyer is helping your clients accurately understand the costs of your services necessary to solve their problems.
  • Turn off your lawyer brain when thinking about business development. What do you like solving? Build a business model around that.

“The legal profession itself stands in its own way. We’ve got such a long tradition and history of how things have always been done. It’s almost a stodgy profession. We have a lot of regulations on us, and it’s hard to come up with ideas to get around those or to be ethical. Attorneys worry about that a lot. We’re very conservative with how we look at things.” —  Jen Lee

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About Jen Lee: Jen Lee AKA Rebel Esquire. Once a mild-mannered attorney, now the superhero for lawyers intent on transforming an industry resistant to change. She is redefining the practice of law through innovation, accessibility, and a bold departure from the status quo. Jen is the owner of Lawyer Success Network and host of the Rebel Esquire podcast.

Connect with Jen Lee: 





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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, if you’re looking to level up as a lawyer, you want to join me and my friend Rachel Steininger, who’s been on the show a couple of times. For 10 easy to execute hacks to unlock your full potential, you can sign up on my website Fretzin. com slash events and hope to see you there and enjoy the show.

[00:00:20] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:42] Steve Fretzin: Well, Hey everybody. Welcome back to another fun episode of the Be That Lawyer podcast. I hope you’re having a lovely day. If you’re hearing about Fretzin, uh, Be That Lawyer with Fretzin for the first time, just to share, we only do two things. We work with. Uh, highly motivated attorneys who want to grow, learn the skills to grow their law practice and make it a sustainable year after year.

[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: And we do that through an intensive coach and training program, uh, work with lawyers all over the world, uh, even down in Saudi Arabia and up in Canada. And then we also run these Rainmaker Roundtables. So if you’re a successful lawyer, Feeling like you’re on your proverbial island, you’re not really sharing ideas, you’re not getting ideas, you’re not working with other managing partners and rainmakers who can advise, this is the place for you.

[00:01:23] Steve Fretzin: Give me a shout at steve at Fretzin. com to hear more about either of those two programs, and that’s enough about that. I’ve got Jen waiting in the wings, how you doing Jen? Good, how are you Steve? I’m doing okay, doing okay, we’ve got a, a solid quote, uh, from you, from George Bernard Shaw. Huh? And let’s start off with that.

[00:01:41] Steve Fretzin: It’s people who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it, which is just fantastic. Tell us a little bit about that quote and welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:51] Jen Lee: I, as a lawyer, I was very weird. Like I did innovative things and everyone told me, Oh, you can’t do that.

[00:01:58] Jen Lee: You can’t do that. And so I was Googling around looking for some good quotes back when I first started out as a lawyer and that one came up and I’m like, That’s exactly how I feel. If you say it can’t be done, great, go off in your little world and do it, but let me actually do it. 

[00:02:12] Steve Fretzin: Right. So innovation’s happening all the time and there’s problems that are being solved, you know, regularly, you’re either part of the solution or you’re, you’re hanging back as part of the problem.

[00:02:22] Jen Lee: Exactly. And the mindset of, uh, you know, you have to do things this way cause that’s how it’s always been done drives me crazy. So it kind of gets into that too. 

[00:02:30] Steve Fretzin: Right on, right on. Well, Jen Lee, you are, as you know, Of the lawyer success network and, um, you’re a lawyer and now moved into a different role.

[00:02:39] Steve Fretzin: So talk to us a little bit about your background. 

[00:02:40] Jen Lee: Yeah. So, um, I am a lawyer and I always say I’m, I was a formally mild mannered attorney turned superhero now for lawyers because I was a bankruptcy attorney. I practiced, uh, had my own firm and really enjoyed it. And then I found that I was actually filing bankruptcies for lawyers.

[00:02:56] Jen Lee: Um, I became known as the go to lawyer for bankruptcies and I. Found that their business models and what they were doing were not always efficient. It wasn’t that they had any financial. mismanagement issues. It was more of a business. They didn’t teach you business in law school. And so my tipping point was I jumped into consulting with lawyers on how they do their business models and their mindset and things like that, instead of being the bankruptcy attorney, hopefully keeping them out of bankruptcy in the future instead.

[00:03:24] Jen Lee: So. 

[00:03:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, I’ve been hearing, I’ve been hearing for years that the hourly, the billable hour and it’s going away and, you know, I mean, it’s going to be alternative fee arrangements. And I mean, I mean, going back even as many as maybe 15 years, I’ve been hearing this from lawyers and there are innovators like yourself and others that, that are doing it.

[00:03:43] Steve Fretzin: But why do you think the billable hour still stands strong? Is that kind of the, the way to the go to play for lawyers? 

[00:03:50] Jen Lee: The legal profession itself stands in its own way. We’ve got such a long tradition and history of how things have always been done and almost a stodgy profession. And there are a lot of innovation out there, but I think it’s just the change.

[00:04:04] Jen Lee: Also our regulations. We have a lot of regulations on us, and it’s hard to come up with ideas to get around those, or to be ethical, and I think attorneys worry about that a lot. We’re very conservative with how we look at things, so I think that holds the industry back itself, so. 

[00:04:19] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s, I don’t know, like, the problem is like, sometimes it’s like, is there a better way?

[00:04:24] Steve Fretzin: You know, that’s the question, or some, I think there’s some lawyers that say yes, and there’s probably a lot of lawyers that say no, no, I love the billable hour, and, You know, that’s what, you know, pays the bills and allows me to buy my, my Porsche and all that stuff. So 

[00:04:35] Jen Lee: I think I listened to change as part of that.

[00:04:37] Jen Lee: Well, you’re still like change, 

[00:04:39] Steve Fretzin: right? Change. It’s, it’s like a, it’s, it is a slow moving train and it’s, you know, it, we just see, we see what’s it like AI. Okay. AI is moving at a million miles an hour, but in legal, you know, maybe less so than in some other arenas. So it’s, I think it’s, they’re consistently slow into change.

[00:04:54] Steve Fretzin: Yep. You know, even business development, Jen, like thinking about thinking back, I couldn’t get CLEs approved because it was business development and marketing. And now it’s like, yeah, that’s standard. 

[00:05:04] Jen Lee: Yeah. And even law practice management type topics, the things I was helping my bankruptcy clients with were hard to get CLEs for 10, 15 years ago, because, well, that’s not a legal topic.

[00:05:14] Jen Lee: That’s a business topic. And now it’s all over the California bars, all over us to teach people. 

[00:05:20] Steve Fretzin: How to do things. Yeah, but it’s just like it didn’t happen in a year. It’s happened over a period of time. So, you know, the legal industry, I mean, I don’t know if the bill of hours is directly to blame for this, but it’s, it’s, you know, notorious.

[00:05:31] Steve Fretzin: Or, you know, burnout and work like ballot imbalance and attorneys are, you know, leaving the practice of law sort of at record numbers to go figure out other things to do. I mean, Mental health. I mean, I had, you know, a number of guests on the show talk about these subjects and it’s sort of still rampant.

[00:05:47] Steve Fretzin: Yes, it is. 

[00:05:49] Jen Lee: And I find that the billable hour probably does drive that because we all, a lot of us have student loans. We’re trying to make enough money to pay back all of those things. And also, the culture. There’s a lot of culture issues with how you’re expected to be at the office on Saturdays and work after hours.

[00:06:06] Jen Lee: And I think that’s slowly changing too, but it is a huge problem. And it’s hard to say no if you’re not the owner of the firm or you’re, you’re an associate coming in, it’s hard to say no to that. So, 

[00:06:17] Steve Fretzin: it’s a huge issue. So is, is part of lawyer happiness? Doing things like committing to do like figuring out how to do things differently so that you get better work life balance and you’re not, you know, tied to email or the billable hour, the two things that seem to be dragging people into the mud.

[00:06:32] Jen Lee: I think so. I think it’s a, one of the things that I work on is designing a law firm. Like what kind of experience do you want to have as a law firm owner? And I think a lot of that is. Not necessarily going out and opening up the bank account and getting malpractice insurance. It’s the why am I doing this?

[00:06:48] Jen Lee: What do my hours look like? Do I want to work on Saturdays? do I want to work only on Tuesdays from 10 to 2 and then sticking to those boundaries and Going with the clients that adapt to your model and not necessarily trying to catch all the clients out there. 

[00:07:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah So, so what types of models are out there?

[00:07:07] Steve Fretzin: I mean, there’s, uh, you know, I’ve got my friend, uh, Matt Kirbis, who’s doing a subscription attorney. And so he’s, you know, I don’t, I’m going to make up numbers and he’ll get mad at me, but let’s just say it’s okay. It’s 99 a month. It’s a subscription to a lawyer. He’s bringing in 1200 a year and doing the math, right?

[00:07:24] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, and then, you know, there’s plus, plus, plus based on other, you know, projects, he’s not just working on 99 a month, there’s other things happening, but what are, what are like the top three models that you’re helping people with seeing that are, that are changing the game for attorneys? 

[00:07:38] Jen Lee: So I don’t do any billable hour stuff.

[00:07:40] Jen Lee: It’s all trying to figure out how to get out of that. A couple of different models, flat fee models have been around probably the longest as a bankruptcy attorney on the consumer side. A lot of our, our work was already flat fee. So the flat fee model, I will still help people figure out their flat fees and price accordingly and make sure that things are happening.

[00:07:59] Jen Lee: There are a lot of hybrid approaches where it’s milestone based, like we’re going to do this portion of your case for X amount of dollars. So kind of a hybrid of we’re not doing a full representation, unbundled services is kind of a controversial topic sometimes. And so we’re seeing a lot of those. The other things, another model that I’m trying to get lawyers to think about is more passive income.

[00:08:23] Jen Lee: Not necessarily a subscription model, but do you have a materials, even if it’s not through a law firm, you could have a separate entity that offers a course. That offers a podcast that has sponsorships that things that you don’t have to always put in hours for in order to consistently get income from so alternative passive income models is also part of that.

[00:08:45] Steve Fretzin: So like an example would be your, your, I’m, I’m going through bankruptcy and instead of hiring you for that, I would get, uh, uh, like a, like here’s step one, step two, step three in a video, you’re selling that to me for 99 or whatever. And then that’s. That, and I’m getting, but you get a thousand people a year that do that.

[00:09:03] Steve Fretzin: There’s your, 

[00:09:04] Jen Lee: you know, and being very careful to say that, you know, this isn’t legal advice specific to your situation and to all those display. Yeah, they have to be careful. If you’re offering it as legal, you can offer as legal advice, but I do have a course where I help people rebuild after bankruptcy.

[00:09:17] Jen Lee: So it’s again, not legal advice, but just almost life advice. Sometimes I find what a lot of what lawyers do is coaching. They just don’t realize that their coaches are therapists. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:09:28] Steve Fretzin: Right. Do you, I, I, trust me, I’m a therapist a lot these days, you know, try to get people that do business development and, uh, coming up with creative ways to, to get it done when they just, they’re just, you know, going straight at it, isn’t gonna, isn’t gonna be for them.

[00:09:43] Steve Fretzin: Do you have some examples of attorneys, either that you have helped or that you just, that had the billable hour, you flipped them into a flat fee, flipped them into something, kind of how that changed things for them. Like, I’d just like to hear a little bit of like a story about that. 

[00:09:57] Jen Lee: Yeah. So we did it with litigation one time.

[00:10:01] Jen Lee: Okay. An attorney that we took and we did a flat fee and it was debt. Debt collection, debt settlement. They were on the, the consumer defendant side and the, uh, traditionally it’s an hourly bill, they, you know, set up a retainer and the 10, 000 retainer, and a lot of people can’t afford that my other soap box is getting people access to at least good advice without huge retainers.

[00:10:28] Jen Lee: And what we did was we looked at how much it cost to get just to settlement or then to get to trial and we would come up with the flat fees based on how many, how much time it took, what the value was the client. There are some clients that didn’t work for because the value of the collection was so low, it doesn’t make sense to fight a 500 collection for a 1000.

[00:10:49] Jen Lee: Uh, attorney retainer, but in those situations, what we did was we, we developed like a flat fee, uh, appointment that they could just schedule an appointment for, I think it was 200 and get advice on how to settle it themselves. So we did a flat fee model on up to settlement. Here’s what the fee costs. If it goes, if you want to go to trial with it, we have another flat fee for that.

[00:11:11] Jen Lee: And it was interesting because everyone told me that you can’t do contested or adversarial type stuff with flat fees. So. He’s doing pretty well. I really, um, really like to follow and see what’s going on. And we, once I’m done with a client, I’m usually done. I don’t continue working. I’m not an ongoing coach.

[00:11:28] Jen Lee: I tend to do like a one, one discrete task and then move on. 

[00:11:32] Steve Fretzin: So, so how, how do attorneys like wrap their heads around this kind of change? Is it something where it’s, it’s all, it’s all or nothing? Or is it, it, can it happen slowly over time? Like, for example, Um, they’re offering the, you know, the billable hour, but then maybe some things are flat fee and maybe they just, is it something they can slowly get into versus like pushing all their chips in?

[00:11:55] Jen Lee: Yes. Yes. I would say for once I’ve been practicing a while, that’s usually what we, we try is can we just take specific things and move them to flat fee? And then as they see their profit margin on the flat fee versus their litigation. And they realized that if they were doing flat fees, they actually make more money.

[00:12:12] Jen Lee: Then we start moving into, okay, now how do we structure this for your, your other things that you’re worried about with the billable hour, especially with AI. There are a lot of things that can be done now in a few seconds. That used to take an attorney a few hours to work on and, and if you’re only charging by the time it takes, 

[00:12:30] Steve Fretzin: your income is going down.

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[00:14:25] Steve Fretzin: Well, right. And there’s a case to be made about the billable hour being counterproductive to the consumer, the client experience, and, you know, the slower, I mean, again, I’d like to think everyone has ethics, uh, realistically.

[00:14:41] Steve Fretzin: Right. It’s not the case. So in, in, you know, you’re, you know, just thinking about a case can be built. So talk through that because that’s the, the pushback that, you know, that, that makes it difficult for, for this to like match up. 

[00:14:53] Jen Lee: And that’s where I struggled as an attorney was I was like, it doesn’t make sense for me to drag out something, but that’s the only way I can make enough money to, you know, make a profit as a law firm.

[00:15:03] Jen Lee: And so it is that ethical balance, like, okay, do I argue about this more? Do I, you know, put more time into this? I had a. A client that wasn’t a lawyer was when I was doing bankruptcy work and they came to me and they said, you know, I’m doing this settlement with this other attorney and I get the weirdest phone calls and bills or the weirdest phone calls and emails on the 29th, 30th and 31st of the month.

[00:15:29] Jen Lee: And I was like, okay. And I didn’t really say anything, but what was happening was, is the attorney was going through their billing records and realizing that they hadn’t billed enough and going through their cases and trying to add stuff on. So I see stuff like that as a problem. Yeah. And it’s something that it’s not.

[00:15:45] Jen Lee: Client friendly clients don’t like it. They don’t like the unexpectedness of it. And I think a lot of clients are becoming way more savvy. Even my small business owner clients and law firm clients are becoming way more business savvy than they used to be. 

[00:15:59] Steve Fretzin: Do you think the clients that the lawyers are comfortable with the bill of all our, do you think that clients are too, has there been any studies done on client satisfaction with the billable hour?

[00:16:07] Steve Fretzin: Cause it seems like they would be potentially against changing something that they’re comfortable with. 

[00:16:14] Jen Lee: So I, the ones that I haven’t seen any studies on anything specific, but just anecdotally, what I’ve seen is clients don’t like the billable hour. They don’t, especially people who are cost conscious.

[00:16:26] Jen Lee: They’re like, how is this? How much does it cost me? If I get a bill for 4, 000, I’m going to get another one in a couple of weeks that I didn’t expect. It’s really hard to budget and plan for. And I always tell lawyers that part of your job in getting paid is telling clients how they can afford your services.

[00:16:43] Jen Lee: And, and helping them through that. And so if you can’t even tell the client how much it’s going to cost them fairly exactly, then the client’s always going to be on the edge of their seat and nervous. And you really don’t want a nervous, overwhelmed client because then your email communications go up and your text messages and your phone calls.

[00:17:03] Jen Lee: It’s just stressful for everybody. 

[00:17:05] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. One other area that I wanted to explore with you was. The growing demand for legal services that cater to non traditional markets under underserved communities. Can you speak to that for a few minutes? Yes, because this is a huge topic for me.

[00:17:20] Jen Lee: There is a big difference between someone who qualifies for like legal aid or, or free low income legal services. And those who can afford five, 10, 15, 000 of, of legal services. And it’s an untapped market out there. There are a few great innovators who are doing great things in the divorce space and, uh, even in consumer debt areas.

[00:17:44] Jen Lee: Where they’re helping people maybe in a la carte type pricing, getting paid for consultations, getting paid for just giving good advice. And I think having that mindset of I can help somebody and not have to have a huge retainer to do it. And then also these other alternative products out there, alternative services, you could help a lot of people without having to do hours and hours of one to one client meetings.

[00:18:10] Jen Lee: I just think there’s this like 80 percent of the market out there is being messed by people who are focused either on the very high or the people who work at legal aid who can’t help someone who has a little bit too much income to qualify. 

[00:18:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, so is there, so there’s a market for, for people who can’t really afford, you know, full blown lawyers that are charging four, five, six hundred an hour.

[00:18:32] Steve Fretzin: Um, And so what’s the best model or that you’ve seen to, to focus on, on that particular sort of answer underserved communities. 

[00:18:41] Jen Lee: I really like the, the single advice appointments where someone could make an appointment, pay for it ahead of time and get the information they need and then they can decide a lot of times they think they can’t afford a lawyer.

[00:18:53] Jen Lee: But then when they get into the appointment and you start explaining how it works and how they possibly could, you know, make payment arrangements, do things, not that a lawyer should ever be financing client’s fees. Like you should take it on yourself. That should be something that goes through a third party financer or whatever.

[00:19:09] Jen Lee: But being able to explain that sometimes can help them realize what they could need help with and what they can do themselves. And even helping unbundle services pro se. Litigants through things, the courts would really appreciate. I think if lawyers would step in and take a little bit more active role and helping, but the system has to change a bit too, because a lot of lawyers are hesitant to get into pieces of a case because then they get sucked into the whole case when the judge is like, Nope, you appeared on that one, that one hearing three months ago.

[00:19:41] Jen Lee: Now you’re the lawyer permanently. So it’s balancing that, making sure your agreement is very specific about what you’re going to do. 

[00:19:49] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And just, just. Does it matter where someone, you know, you’ve been all over the country. I mean, are there, it doesn’t matter where people are located as it relates to their access to, to lawyers and, and, um, and getting affordable legal services.

[00:20:05] Jen Lee: I think it doesn’t matter as much as it used to. The one thing that COVID did was it made zoom and it made all of these other Reasonable. My law firm had been virtual since 2010 and I would often get these weird comments, like what you don’t have office space, you don’t go to an office. And I’m like, that’s extra expense that we don’t need.

[00:20:31] Jen Lee: And it’s much easier for us to work from home. And so I think it made it more accepted. So people can find lawyers now. They don’t have to be nearly right in their community. There are some very rural areas of the country that have no lawyers in a single county. And so I think it has made it at least accessible if someone wants to find a lawyer.

[00:20:48] Steve Fretzin: So what are, so what are. Some things that you’re doing lawyer success network that are like, what, like I’m coming to you and I’m burned out and I’m like trying to figure out how to make this law practice work. It’s not a business development issue because otherwise it’d be calling me. We’re calling you.

[00:21:03] Steve Fretzin: Exactly. All right. But, but what are you, so like, take, like, take someone through that experience of what, what it’s like. So 

[00:21:11] Jen Lee: my very first bore right into this was I. Help lawyers add bankruptcy to their practice. So that was my 

[00:21:18] Steve Fretzin: very first foray into consulting. I had a lot of lawyers. So what I’m an estate planner and you’re like, Hey, you should also offer since you’re dealing with consumers and such.

[00:21:26] Steve Fretzin: Okay. 

[00:21:27] Jen Lee: So what happened was the beginning of COVID, everybody thought bankruptcy would be booming. Right, yeah. It’s not going to be shut down and all these things. And so like within a week, I had 20 requests from lawyers. Can you please help me add bankruptcy to my practice? And so in a week, I put together an entire 16 hour course from A to Z, how to add bankruptcy to your practice.

[00:21:47] Jen Lee: And then bankruptcy died for three years because of all the stimulus and all of the things that happened. It’s really picked up again. So that’s how I originally started. I was like, I’m going to help attorneys at bankers that practice. And then, um, now we’re doing a lot of business design. If you either want to start a law firm and don’t know where to start, or you think that bank accounts and malpractice insurance are the place to start, not the place to start.

[00:22:13] Jen Lee: And so someone reaches out and we go through. What their timeline looks like, what they are thinking about doing practice areas, things like that. And then we set up a, an arrangement where I’ve done anywhere from a three month launch to a nine month launch because some people are more conservative and wanting to get all their ducks in a row.

[00:22:31] Jen Lee: And some people are like, no, I’m going full bore right now. Yeah. So we come up with a timeline and we work through their whys, how they’re designed, some of the technical stuff of client experience, because I think that’s really important. Lawyers don’t think as much about client experience. And then I do a lot of referring out to other resources for implementation.

[00:22:54] Jen Lee: So I’m not the implementer of things. I’m the ideas and Encouragement to think outside the box. 

[00:23:01] Steve Fretzin: Got it. Got it. All right. So I think I, I get it. And, um, it’s just, it’s just such a different, I mean, there’s changes happening, but I think like we said, slow changes and, and, um, if you had to leave like a, a couple of parting tips for, for lawyers as we, as we wrap up in the next five minutes, I mean, what would you say are some things they should be really Focused on thinking about for 2024.

[00:23:23] Jen Lee: So I always tell lawyers to turn off their lawyer braids when they start thinking about business and business development and things that, and you and I’ve talked about this before, they get so stuck in their circular thinking sometimes like this. So my, my first tip is always turn off your lawyer braid and think about the problems that you like solving and then develop your model around that.

[00:23:45] Jen Lee: And so as we go into 2024, things are changing. The year is a little crazy. We’ve got election this year. We’ve got the economy’s doing some funky things where you think it’s doing bad. And then the stock market hits nearly 40, 000. And so you have to kind of be on your toes and keep an eye out for problems that are occurring so you can be the one to solve them.

[00:24:07] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Sounds good. So let’s move on to, uh, a game changing book. And I want to hear about this, the energy bus. 

[00:24:14] Jen Lee: So The Energy Bus is a book by John Gordon, and if anyone knows me, I talk about this book all the time, so you can, you know, tune me out for a second. So this was a game changer for me because the book is about a guy who is depressed with his job, very unhappy.

[00:24:31] Jen Lee: doesn’t know how to relate to people. And he gets on a bus one day because his car is broke down, and the bus driver, over the course of a few weeks, kind of teaches him some life lessons of, you are the master of your destiny. You’re the one who gets to decide who you associate with. You get to decide where your life is going.

[00:24:52] Jen Lee: And until you make those decisions, you’re going to be miserable. And so it was a really good eye opener. Like, if someone’s not supporting you, then don’t. Associate, like don’t associate, kick them off your bus is basically how I view it. It was like, 

[00:25:06] Steve Fretzin: yeah, spend time with people that are supportive and they care about you and that are positive.

[00:25:11] Jen Lee: Exactly. 

[00:25:11] Steve Fretzin: Okay. 

[00:25:12] Jen Lee: And I find that lawyers tend to get into the complaining load and we tend to get into the, like, woe is me a lot. 

[00:25:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

[00:25:18] Jen Lee: We’re very stressed. And that, that was a very helpful mindset to get into when I start wallowing a bit is, okay, what’s making me upset and how can I change that myself?

[00:25:30] Jen Lee: Because I’m the one in charge. 

[00:25:32] Steve Fretzin: There’s a yeah, there’s a I’m trying to screw this up, but there’s there’s a fun There’s a funny comedy something Uh, behind the shadows or something like that’s a vampire show. Have you ever seen it? And there’s, there’s these vampires, they’re all, they’re all ridiculous. And there’s one that’s called an energy vampire.

[00:25:49] Steve Fretzin: Yes. So instead of mentioned in the book, isn’t it? It is. Oh my God. So yeah, he just, he just hangs around at the office with his arm up. Hey, you know, it’s just, it just drains everyone’s energy. So I think you’re looking for the opposite of the energy vampire. Right. 

[00:26:02] Jen Lee: Yes, and you’re trying to remove the energy vampires.

[00:26:04] Jen Lee: If you have an energy vampire on your team, then you should start working on getting that energy vampire off of your team. However, that 

[00:26:10] Steve Fretzin: yeah, yeah, that’s so funny. That was the one thing. That’s the one thing that impressed me by more about that show. It was that they came up with that, with that. I looked that up.

[00:26:20] Steve Fretzin: Sounds cool. Yeah. I don’t want to call that, not behind the shadows, it’s going to bug me anyway. So let’s then take a moment to thank our sponsors. We’ve got, of course, law. I mean, these are all, these are all companies that are doing what you and I are doing, which is helping lawyers move forward in the business of law and, and innovate and, and everything.

[00:26:42] Steve Fretzin: So just as an example, lawmatics, I use lawmatics every day. And so my marketing’s are all, my marketing is automated. My pipeline, the way that I’m. Proactively, like you’re, you as a, as a guest of this show, you’re going to get in six months and automate an email for me that says, Hey, Jen, it’s been six months.

[00:26:59] Steve Fretzin: We should catch up. Maybe we want to do another show. Maybe we want to network. Things like that. And that’s so like between that and that automated contracts and, and just the, the, the way that it’s just makes everything takes, takes like your current case management, the next level. Lawmatics is the best get staffed up.

[00:27:15] Steve Fretzin: So now we’re outsourcing to VAs that are handling your marketing, that are handling client fake, you know, the client thing, the client, um, implementation or client, um, intake, you know, things like that. And then of course we’ve got green cardigan marketing, right? So green cardigan marketing, just. Helping to get the website and the marketing strategically placed so that you’re not doing random acts of marketing.

[00:27:37] Steve Fretzin: You’re actually like setting up a plan of what, where the business is, how you’re going to get it and then, then driving towards it. So thank you so much for being on the show. If people want to get in touch with you, Jen, they want to hear about Lawyer Success Network. What are the best digits for, uh, for them to find you?

[00:27:51] Jen Lee: So LinkedIn, I’m on LinkedIn, um, very frequently and also LawyerSuccessNetwork. com is my website. 

[00:27:58] Steve Fretzin: Okay. That’s very clean. Yeah. You were hatching back that URL. 

[00:28:02] Jen Lee: Yes. Well, on it originally, like I have a lot of resources. I’m trying to share the resources with my network. So 

[00:28:08] Steve Fretzin: awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for being on the show.

[00:28:10] Steve Fretzin: And, um, and I just, uh, you know, again, I’d like to keep, keep in, in touch and keep, keep together because I think what you’re doing is, is a big part of the future of, of legal, um, and you know, anyone that’s doing that, like me, right. We’re just, we should, we got to stick together in these, in these, going back to the very beginning, uh, you know, with your quote of the show.

[00:28:28] Steve Fretzin: So, yeah, definitely. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. Thank you everybody for spending time with Jen and I today on the Be That Lawyer podcast. Again, you know, take to take need, you know, these, there’s a lot of different ways to run your law practice without it just being, you know, driven by that billable, uh, our hamster wheel that you’re on.

[00:28:44] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, you know, there’s just the burnout, the stress, suicide rate, everything’s up and we’ve got to figure out ways to lower it down and ways to automate, ways to do things differently than in the past because it just, there’s a happier, I think there’s a happier future, Jen, right? That’s, that’s getting in a certain way.

[00:29:00] Steve Fretzin: Definitely. Cool. Uh, well thanks everybody. Take care. Be safe. Be well. And we’ll talk again real soon.

[00:29:10] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.