In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jennifer Gardner discuss:
- The impact of emotional intelligence on personal and professional success
- Strategies for communication and influence in legal practice
- Addressing challenges in business development and client management
- Lawyers’ responsibility in upholding societal values and the rule of law
Key Takeaways:
- Lawyers can enhance their decision-making and relationship-building skills by focusing on emotional intelligence, which includes empathy and understanding clients’ emotions.
- Influence, distinct from power or convincing, is most effective when used to align others’ decisions with their own goals while fostering collaboration.
- Prospective client meetings are more successful when the focus is on listening and empathizing rather than pitching or hard-selling services.
- Recognizing every interaction as an opportunity to influence positively can help lawyers build trust, improve client outcomes, and reinforce their roles as guardians of the rule of law.
“Every communication is an opportunity to move further and further toward that end—using influence in a really positive way to achieve great results for our clients and to enforce the rule of law.” — Jennifer Gardner
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
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Rainmakers Roundtable: https://fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References:
Lex Fridman Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lex-fridman-podcast/id1434243584
About Jennifer Gardner: Jennifer B. Gardner is a Los Angeles-based trial lawyer and persuasive communications educator. She specializes in strategic, empathic, and persuasive communication, focusing on high performers in various settings. When she is not lawyering, she educates high-performing leaders on how to grow their executive presence and confidence using persuasive communication strategies through her program, “The Art of Influence and the Power Lab,” as well as for various continuing legal education providers. She also consults with lawyers on strategic messaging for their cases and helps them enhance their courtroom presence.
Connect with Jennifer Gardner:
Website: https://jenniferbgardner.com/ & https://jgardnerassociates.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferbgardner/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamjenniferbgardner
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I want to remind you to do the Q and a, you can send your questions directly to me at steve at Fretzin. com. This one today is coming from Tracy from Wichita, Kansas. She asks, I’ve been working at business development for a few years and haven’t gotten past a hundred K any suggestions?
Yeah, I’ve got a lot of suggestions, Tracy. Number one is Hey, we’re in a new year. Got to write a plan. You know, things may be all over the place. They call them random acts of marketing. I’d really recommend. Looking at what you want your objective to be for the year. What are your key and core strategies?
Things you’re going to focus your time and energy on. And then what are the day to day actionable tactical things that you need to do to accomplish those goals? I’m setting 30 minutes a week or twice a week in your calendar. To get proactive with, with meetings and getting in front of people, attending things, that’s all going to be helpful.
I’m happy to talk this further with you, Tracy, if you want to call me directly, but hopefully these couple of suggestions will help you get through. Obviously grab one of my books. The networking handbook on Amazon would be very useful as well. Again, if everybody, [00:01:00] if you have questions, please don’t be shy.
We’d love to answer them on the show, only using your first name steve at Fretzin. com. Thanks everybody. And enjoy the show.
Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Branson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Branson.
Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. I am here twice a week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And, you know, I take it very literally and personally to bring on guests that I know are going to impact the way that you practice law, impact the way that you live your best lawyer’s life.
And today is absolutely no different than usual, other than I’ve got a very unique individual in Jennifer Gardner. How you doing Jennifer? [00:02:00] I’m great. How are you? Doing well. We were just talking about how busy the day was, which is fine, but have plenty of energy to spare. So we’re going to use it. I’m going to put it out on you and hopefully get some great content for the lawyers that are listening to check out or watching if it’s on YouTube.
So let’s start off with our quote of the show. Adam Grant has been around a long time. He’s been doing. Great work and helping a lot of people get their sales together. And again, just really, really bright guy. His quote is success is really more about contribution than competition, which I have something to say about that, but I’d love to hear, first of all, welcome to the show.
And I’d love to hear your take on why that quote is so meaningful to you.
Jennifer Gardner: Yeah, it’s a super meaningful quote. Actually, there’s very little. That Adam Grant doesn’t say that I don’t just completely resonate with and think it’s just such a great idea. So insightful and so profound as far as this quote goes, I really think that lawyers, a lot of lawyers are [00:03:00] missing the vote because they are obsessed with winning.
And I sometimes see conflict as an opportunity to find a solution and contribute to a brainstorming problem solving process. On all sides. So that doesn’t mean I’m compromising advocacy or, but I don’t believe in advocacy and competition where there’s a winner and a loser for the sake of advocacy and competition as being the be all end all in my practice anyway.
And it’s, so when I saw that quote for that reason, it really resonated with me deeply.
Steve Fretzin: And I feel similarly in that, you know, I’m producing this podcast. I’m writing books, articles. I’m continually creating video and posting content that’s helpful. And my hope is that, and I’m not really competing. I mean, there’s a lot of lawyer coaches.
I don’t know that we’re competing. I think we’re, you know, we’re all contributing at different levels. And I think that contribution, you [00:04:00] know, my goal is to leave the legal industry better than I found it, which was. In business development terms, not great, as you know, I don’t know. I think that the word contribution is so important in any industry or anything.
I mean, you’re contributing to, you know, the people at your firm and work that you do in your clients. And maybe just expand on that a little bit. I take a very holistic approach
Jennifer Gardner: to the work that I do and a very humanistic approach to work that I do. And as a litigator, and now as an educator of some of these ideas.
And so contribution to me is bringing people up and supporting people, especially as it relates to the people that are on your team that are assisting you in reaching the goal for your clients. That’s the ultimate team. If my people are not happy and I’m not contributing to their happiness, then I’m not doing my job fully.
I’m really obsessed with my people being happy.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s, and it’s got to, but it’s got to go both ways too, right? They’ve got to, you want them to be happy, but they also, they have to contribute, right? To the overall vision and [00:05:00] goal of the organization and your happiness. Yes? Absolutely.
Jennifer Gardner: Yeah. No, absolutely.
It’s reciprocal. For sure, it’s reciprocal. Yeah. I mean, they have to, they have to pull their weight. They have to contribute.
Steve Fretzin: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely.
Jennifer Gardner: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin: All right, well, we’re gonna get, and it’s, it’s a big
Jennifer Gardner: challenge. Find people who are in the game in that way, but it’s possible to find,
Steve Fretzin: well, yeah. I mean, you’ve got, you know, winners, you’ve got people that are kind of just kicking the can down the road, and you’ve got losers.
And, you know, when you select the team, when you select clients, when you select partners for things you’re doing. You know, you have to make good choices.
Jennifer Gardner: Absolutely. And if I don’t feel that I can partner with a client to get a good result, then that’s not the right client for me. And I’m sure you’d agree that not every client is right for every lawyer.
Steve Fretzin: Yep. No, it’s the word that we want to use outside of contribution is the word fit. I’m a big fan of that. And if I’m talking to a lawyer who wants to work with me, they’re hungry, they’re go getter and [00:06:00] for whatever reason, personality or from, you know, it could be financial, it could be whatever. They’re just, you know, they’re just not ready.
Then let’s not do it. Like there’s no, you know, you don’t have to jam a round peg in a square hole and, you know, and just try to make a deal or, or get business. I mean, I get that there’s desperation that can occur, but you know, I’d, I’d rather approach it from a fit and from a power position of, I don’t need this.
What’s best for everybody.
Jennifer Gardner: Right. But I think that a lot of lawyers, they really struggle with saying no and having those boundaries and rejecting the misfits. And that’s not to cast any shade on the quote unquote misfit, but when it’s not a fit, being able to have your personal boundaries so that you can say no is very, very difficult because we are, as you know, the ultimate people pleasers.
We’re pleasing the court, we’re pleasing other people. We’re really socialized from the time we’re really young. And I don’t think that’s necessarily such a good thing, but yes, and I love the word fit. I’m going to use that.
Steve Fretzin: Let me take it one step further. So one thing that I teach lawyers when they’re [00:07:00] meeting with a new perspective client is to, you know, build some rapport and trust and then lean into some form of a game plan and the game plan that I’m teaching accomplishes a number of things.
But the two that I’ll share with you. One is To say to somebody, you know, the purpose of us getting together today is really to see if there’s a fit, to see if, if there’s a reason for us to proceed forward. And then at the end of that game plan, right, so right off the bat, we’re laying the groundwork that we’re on the same level playing field, right?
Even though you’re the big shot CEO and I’m this lowly attorney or whatever the, you know, might seem like the, you know, we’re both humans and we’re both putting our pants on, you know, similarly. The second thing is I’ll say at the end of that game plan is. At the end of our meeting, if we feel like there’s a good fit and we want to continue to talk, let’s figure out what next steps might look like.
On the other hand, if there isn’t a fit from your perspective or mine, let’s sort of be honest with each other and call it a day and, and let, and I wanna let you know no is an okay outcome. Like, that’s okay. We can stay friends. Is that acceptable to you? Do you, do you agree with that? And always they say [00:08:00] yes.
And appreciate that. Giving someone an outfit and letting them say no, if it’s not a fit or giving you that permission to say no, if it’s not a fit, gives you some upfront opportunities to lay some groundwork that if it isn’t a fit, you can bring it up later because it’s been agreed to upfront.
Jennifer Gardner: That’s fantastic.
I’m going to use that. Thank you for the free coaching. Yeah, no problem. That’s free
Steve Fretzin: coaching. Free coaching for all. That’s my new model, my new No, yeah, absolutely. But I, but I, but I think what we’re talking about here is a great lead into where we’re gonna go in a few minutes, but let’s take a step backwards to take a step forwards, or we gotta go fast to go slow or slow to go fast.
I think we’ll hit that soon too. Jennifer Gardner the founder, CEO of Jennifer Gardner Associates. And you’ve got this edge thing going on. So give everybody a little background of how you came to be and leading into the edge, and then we’ll go from there.
Jennifer Gardner: Absolutely. So I had my own practice for a ridiculously long period of time, 32 years this June.
It was
Steve Fretzin: long time.
Jennifer Gardner: And before [00:09:00] that I worked in a firm for a few more years beyond that and a few different firms actually. And. I was successful against all odds and I was successful at a very great price that I really stubbornly refused to pay because I’ve always been extremely entrepreneurial, curious, free spirited and really felt like I was the square peg in the round hole and trying to like fit myself into the round hole.
And it helps to be in California where we have a very. Open society. I ended up representing a lot of people in the entertainment industry, a lot of artists and visual artists, even artists based in, for example, Berlin, Germany, where I was traveling and going back and forth for a while. That climate really was conducive to me exploring things that I was curious about and that interested me.
And my clients really appreciated that I wasn’t single mindedly focused and everything I did. To just [00:10:00] experience life outside of simply being a lawyer. And I say, simply, I should put that in quotes because there’s nothing simple about this job, right? It’s intense, but everything that I did outside of that really informed my ability to be a more effective attorney.
And even though I had no real mentorship and no real training, and I felt like everybody was sort of looking down at me like, Oh, you’re this young female and you think you can do this yourself. That was the sense that I got from like a lot of colleagues, a lot of And even in courtrooms, and I still get that in courtrooms, in fact, but still, that’s another story.
But I found that I was succeeding to my surprise and everybody else’s. And I would win case after case, jury trial to jury trial, and I had to ask myself, what the hell am I doing right? Because I have absolutely zero training, zero mentorship, I don’t understand or really understand all the rules of evidence, or all civil procedure, and certainly I was told by my male superiors when I was a very young lawyer that I wasn’t a legal genius.
[00:11:00] Why am I succeeding like this? Why are more clients coming to me? Why am I getting great verdicts? Why am I getting damage awards? Why am I getting great results in negotiations? And I realized, after I did some exploring outside of just sitting there and pondering the question, I took some courses, I studied interspecies communication, I studied improvisation, I studied acting, I studied direct response.
Copywriting, I studied somatic experiencing, and social psychology, Jungian psychology, and I’ve come to realize, from some amazing mentors, I pieced all these ideas together and realized That I was doing a lot of things instinctively very right and also from a place where I just didn’t know any better and I didn’t know what else to do.
I didn’t know what else to do than go into a courtroom and, and just plead my client’s case like it was my own. That, in and of itself, and the irony there was I’d done some, I represented some really [00:12:00] interesting, colorful folks throughout my career, right? And I was terrified. Of losing because of what they would do to me next.
Quite honestly, like I was afraid of the consequences of not delivering. And so it was very easy for me to find that kernel inside of myself that resonated with the reality of my clients and their legal problem and their legal challenge. And I was able to bring that into my work that I did as a lawyer, every phase along the way that I find is really a huge part of my success.
And neuroscience research has proven that I’m absolutely 100 percent right. So I’ve gone deeper into actually studying data, studying research, studying with experts on topics such as leadership and neuroscience and creativity and communication. And that’s what led me to create The Edge. I mean, the knowledge.
It’s just too good not to [00:13:00] share, and lawyers especially don’t get this training.
Steve Fretzin: But it sounds like, I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I mean, it sounds like a lot of what made you successful was the influence and the, just the, the, sort of the way that you were approaching and passionately.
Jennifer Gardner: Absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely. I mean, I really see, you use the word influence. Influence is power. Influence is getting people to do what you want them to do. Okay. And then it can be get, making a decision for you, voting for you, following you, taking action you want them to take, whatever it is. And in my case, getting my clients to pay me, giving me work in the first place, right?
All of these things require influence. People’s skills and influence. And yeah, I realized that every word is an opportunity to have influence and build the relationship with another human necessary to help you get your result. Every word. [00:14:00]
Steve Fretzin: Got
Jennifer Gardner: it.
Steve Fretzin: And how is Influence different than power from a standpoint of approaching people, approaching clients, approaching subordinates.
Jennifer Gardner: Well, the people who are the most powerful are shown by the research to have the highest level of emotional intelligence. Okay. The
Steve Fretzin: best leaders. Powers connected to emotional intelligence.
Jennifer Gardner: Absolutely. They have as much. EQ as they have IQ, perhaps even more.
Steve Fretzin: And is that, does that impact influence then? Is that one of the key factors?
100%. Okay. Got it.
Jennifer Gardner: 100%. You really need to sharpen your emotional intelligence in order to have influence over other people.
Steve Fretzin: Okay. Is that a born with or is that a learned thing? Some of us are born
Jennifer Gardner: with higher degrees, but it’s nature nurture. You can learn the skills. They’re highly learnable.
Steve Fretzin: Okay.
Jennifer Gardner: Got it.
Steve Fretzin: So what are some things that people [00:15:00] can do to raise up their emotional intelligence and get better results, not only in the courtroom, but business development and client engagement and building a team and all of that?
Jennifer Gardner: Well, I think one of the most important ones is slowing down and getting in touch with themselves, listening to themselves, feeling whatever it is they’re feeling.
Because. Well, now I have to back up and get into a little bit of nerdy neuroscience, but that’s okay. Okay.
Steve Fretzin: I like that stuff. I’m fascinated by it. Okay, good.
Jennifer Gardner: Yeah. Okay. Yes, me too. I’m a big reader of all that stuff. I just, I can’t get enough. And the more I read, the more I want to read. So what I’ve discovered through a lot of reading and actual education is that most decision making is made in the right side of the brain.
Which is where it’s where it’s the emotional part. It’s where we feel things, right? Just there is a very simplistic overview of how it works, right? Right? [00:16:00] So we have to, well, in the left side of the brain, this is where we exercise judgment and we consume information and we look very dispassionately at the information.
There’s a thing such as system one and system two thinking. So system one thinking is you’ve got to bring the data to, to establish your credibility and authority. And system two thinking is you have to appeal to the emotions. And the research is showing that it’s the emotional part of the brain that’s responsible for making the ultimate decision.
You can present people with data, data, data all day long, but at the bottom line, you have to be able to appeal to their emotional piece. So, getting back to the question that you asked me, circling back, if you’re not in touch with your own emotions, it’s impossible to really understand how somebody else is feeling.
Steve Fretzin: So if you’re, yeah, you’re shut, if you’re shut down, it’s hard to then recognize what’s going on.
Jennifer Gardner: Exactly. If you’re [00:17:00] shut down and you’re tuning that part of yourself out, you can’t empathize. And empathy is one of the biggest components of emotional intelligence. You’ve got to be able to think of who are you speaking to, what is motivating them, what are they afraid of, what do they aspire to, and craft a message from inside their heads.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Jennifer Gardner: That’s of course in alignment with what you want, but that’s how you get through from the left and into the right and influence the decision making process.
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The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings. Get cases. And schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here. Man. I thought I was a good marketer, [00:18:00] but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking what’s the rainmakers round table?
Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop?
with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. And I want to just bring this back to, you know, business development for a moment. And I, you know, because that’s obviously such a big part of my life, but also What I think a lot of the folks listening right now want to hear about is, it’s not about the pitch, it’s not about the information and how great your firm is and your wins and all of that, what people really want is they want to be asked questions, they want to talk, they want someone to listen and empathize.
And the [00:19:00] goal of a prospective client meeting should be, can you get them to share with you what’s really going on, on an emotional level? And can you empathize with that? If that’s happening on a regular basis in business development, you’re a winner. If you’re going in and hard selling, convincing pitching, and you’re, it’s all about the intellectual part of the sale.
And I use the word sale. Okay. Sorry. Not sorry. Oh, it’s a sale. Then that’s where you can still get the business, but it’s not going to connect you the same way. And it’s not going to drive up urgency, which ultimately makes the business happen today versus in a year or six months or some time when it’s not happening when it should.
Jennifer Gardner: One thousand percent. I really agree with you. You know, it’s interesting. Late last night, I got a phone call from somebody who said on the message, I spoke with you four years ago and it’s a real estate property line easement type of a problem. And they said, I’m having more problems. The problem still isn’t resolved.
Will you help [00:20:00] me? Four years ago, I spent a lot of time on the phone with that person and I definitely felt like I could work with them. But it took them four years to finally say, okay, I’ve got to do something about this.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Jennifer Gardner: And they called me. So I think that if I wasn’t naturally doing what you’re talking about, well now it’s very intentional when I do it, but if I didn’t have that skill, there’s no way she would remember me.
Yeah. If I was totally in my head about the data, data, data, data only, and I wasn’t able to connect with her and have empathy for her situation, she would not have called me. Yeah. After four years.
Steve Fretzin: Well, there’s a great saying that no one will remember what you well, no, I totally screwed that up, but it’s basically, it’s along the lines of no one cares about what you know.
It’s really that they know that you care. It’s that feeling, that connection of understanding and caring that happens in a meeting with somebody that will bring the business in or that will [00:21:00] bring the business in later. But yeah, Make it real versus again, you know, I’ve been pitched hundreds of thousands of times in my time I don’t remember any of them, but I certainly remember the people who made me feel really special and felt connected to me
Jennifer Gardner: Yes, it’s all about how you make other people feel and that includes your adversaries your lawyer adversaries, their clients, I love to throw zingers into mediations that really like when we’re at a pivotal moment and it doesn’t look like we’re going to have a deal, I will mention something like, well, you know, my client really, the big goal here is to salvage this relationship because.
They have all this history and obviously, right, because most disputes don’t happen, the kind that I handle don’t happen between strangers, their business deals and neighbor relations gone wrong. And I’ll definitely use that card. You know what? It works every time.
Steve Fretzin: So how do you time, how does developing, for example, skills around influence help lawyers become better at their work, reduce stress, like [00:22:00] how does it benefit them and how does it benefit everyone around them?
Jennifer Gardner: Well, the big way that it benefits. Them is they’re getting better results for their clients. And their clients are going to say good things about them, and I’m sure you agree that word of mouth advertising is the best advertising that you can possibly have, and it’s free.
Steve Fretzin: No doubt.
Jennifer Gardner: So they’re going to get great results, their reputation’s going to go up, they’re gonna feel better about themselves, more confident, and they’re gonna continue to go and do great things in the world.
And serve their clients at a really high level. And yeah.
Steve Fretzin: No, you go.
Jennifer Gardner: The question again?
Steve Fretzin: No. I just wasn’t sure if you were done with your answer, but I was just going to, yeah, I was just going to agree with you that it’s. There are lawyers that have developed skills in relationships and building trust and influence is a part of that.
And influence isn’t a bad word. I think, I feel like convincing is a bad word, but influencing is not. And I think that there’s room for influencing in business development and there should be less of that. [00:23:00] Convincing someone to your, I mean, I know that’s a part of being a lawyer, right? But in business development, anytime I hear the word convince someone will say, Oh, I just had to convince them.
And I go like, I cringe a little bit. Yeah.
Jennifer Gardner: Well, yeah. I mean, influence is also kind of a, a word that people are afraid to adopt, but you see, this is one of the things that I think what you just touched on is really interesting because. We, in the dictionary, power is defined as having influence, as having sway, right?
Getting people to do what you want them to do. And you can do it internally or you can do it externally. Externally would be, you march an army in there and you conquer the other side. Internally, is you use the right words and you get them to agree to do something you want them to do while thinking that it’s their own idea.
That’s the ideal form of internal influence or exertion of influence over other people. But power is a dirty word in our culture. We’re very [00:24:00] distrustful of people who have power, of saying we want to be powerful. And a lot of people are really distrustful of lawyers because they perceive them as being powerful.
So we’re sort of in this double bind, right? And I find that conflict and that tension really interesting.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I do too. And I think that’s where relationships and trust and likability and giving and helping changes that. Cause you can be powerful, but known for also being a wonderful person and a giver and a mention all those things.
And that’s not as common as the power that we hear about in politics or the power we hear at a law firm. It’s the raging egomaniac managing partner, all the different examples that we could throw out.
Jennifer Gardner: Those are the worst leaders and just follow Adam Grant long enough and he touches on that regularly, right?
He’s got gems when it comes to people who quote unquote lead like that. [00:25:00] Yeah. You, you know, you can’t be a tyrant and be a good leader, but yes, absolutely. 100 percent everything you just said.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Do we, we have time for one more quick, maybe either example or just, is there one more way that you can share that influence can benefit a relationship whether that’s a friendship, whether that’s in court, clients?
Hmm.
Jennifer Gardner: I think that we need to, especially lawyers, expand our understanding of what influence is and come to see it for what it is, which is from the time we’re very young, we’re learning how to use our words to get our way. And so we are, everything we want is on the other side of the word, yes. Everything.
So, I see every communication that I have with just about anybody that I come into contact with as an opportunity to influence, and maybe it’s not that I’m intentionally seeing it so much as an opportunity, it’s I have an [00:26:00] awareness. Of how my body language, my eye contact, my cadence, the rhythm with which I speak, which is what I mean by cadence, the energy I bring to the communication, the words I choose, the way I build rapport.
I do this all day long, every day. And I do it in every aspect of practicing law. And I believe that these are the skills That make the difference for me. They really, really do. So what I think in terms of influence, I’m thinking in terms of that. And I think that I would like to see more lawyers. See their interactions and their communications as an opportunity for influence.
And one of the reasons why is that we have such an important role to play in society, especially these days where I never thought I would live long enough to hear the American Bar Association form committees and have discussions over the importance of the rule of law. That was always a given. Until very recently.
And so lawyers, we are [00:27:00] interpreting law and we are going into courtrooms to make a point that the rule of law or our interpretation of it is going to be the direction that the law takes and applied in a fair way that we have due process. We take an oath, we take a constitutional oath. To uphold and defend the constitution, right?
So we have we lose sight of this as we go about our daily lives As we’re getting clients as we’re billing clients as we’re trying to meet our overhead and pay our people And have a life and I think that that needs to come back into focus and in order to do that really really well We need to recognize the extreme position of power that we have and own that power and get over whatever feelings of conflict that we have about the fact that we have that power and the opportunity to exercise it regularly for the greater good.
In courtrooms, enforcing the rule of law. So I think that answered your question. Every [00:28:00] communication, every communication is an opportunity to move further and further towards that end of using influence in a really positive way to get great results for our clients and to enforce the rule of law. And
Steve Fretzin: bring in more business.
I mean, it’s sort of all encompassing. So awesome stuff, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Let’s move to our game changing podcast. And I’ve mentioned to you earlier that I’m moving away from political podcast for a while just to give myself a little bit of a breather. And the one that you brought up is Lex Friedman podcast.
And I’m very interested in that. Why is that such a great podcast?
Jennifer Gardner: Okay. I adore Lex Friedman, right? I have a huge crush on Lex Friedman. He’s, well, he’s very. About showing his human side, right? He openly says he loves you to his audience. He loves people. He brings people on, and it’s not all political, believe me, it’s a lot of it is science based.
Science based [00:29:00] experts and thought leaders. Yeah, I love that. But he brings, yes. But he brings people on from all sides of the political spectrum. And he has open communications with them about why they think the things they think and what they think. So that he can reach a deeper understanding and he’s all about communication in that way and using his curiosity to have a deeper understanding of who they are.
And he says very publicly that he’s, we’re all human and we’re all in this together. And those values are my values. And, for that reason, and you don’t hear that in the collective, you don’t hear that in the legacy news media, you hear a lot of editorializing. We get a lot of propaganda and we get a lot of disinformation.
To have somebody whose purpose it is, is to go to the source of policy and different ideas and ask them, quite candidly, you know, what’s going on. What their thoughts are why they think that way and to explore [00:30:00] them as human beings instead of dehumanizing them. I think is Outstanding and we need more conversations like that.
So that is my reason why I love that podcast
Steve Fretzin: Well, I will check that out and I’m assuming that people that are interested in new podcasts will as well Let’s take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course law her one of the best podcasts out there for lawyer women that want to hear from other successful women lawyers to get ahead.
So write that down if you don’t have that on your list. And actually our last show was with with Sonia who runs that podcast. So check that out. And of course, Rankings IO helping to bring in leads for lots and lots of personal injury attorneys around the world to grow their businesses. Jennifer, if people want to get in touch with you and they want to reach out, they want to hear what you’re up to.
What are the best digits?
Jennifer Gardner: LinkedIn at Jennifer B. Gardner, my website jenniferbgardner. com and jgardnerassociates. com is my law practice. I have a lot of digits. Those are the best digits.
Steve Fretzin: [00:31:00] That’s good. Good to have. And we’ll put those in the show notes as well for everybody that’s moving around and traveling on your phones.
Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. This is an interesting topic that I’m so happy we were able to kind of like ferret out all the different aspects of influence and what it really means. And I just thank you so much. Really wonderful. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Awesome. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Jennifer and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We’re here twice a week to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care. Everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening. To be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice, visit Steve’s website Fretzin for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business, development and marketing trends, trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show [00:32:00] notes.