Jennifer Gillman: Freedom in Growing Your Book

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jennifer Gillman discuss:

  • Jennifer’s transition from litigation practice to legal recruiting.
  • Why many lawyers are unhappy.
  • The importance of a book of business.
  • Growing and enjoying your career.

Key Takeaways:

  • There are a lot of differences from firm to firm. If you are unhappy in your job, it may not be the job itself, but it could be where you are working, what you are working in, or who you are working with.
  • Cross-marketing allows you to bring in business in a different area even when your area of law is slower.
  • Having a book of business gives you leverage, both at your current firm, and if you choose to leave.
  • If you want to have freedom in your career, you need to have your own clients.

“If you have your own clients and you don’t like where you are, you don’t have to stay.” —  Jennifer Gillman

Episode References: 

Connect with Jennifer Gillman:  



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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


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Narrator, Steve Fretzin, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther, Jennifer Gillman


Jennifer Gillman  [00:01]

If you have your own clients and you’re not happy where you are, you really don’t have to stay.


Narrator  [00:11]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Ritson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve, Brett said,


Steve Fretzin  [00:33]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. Hope you’re having a lovely day. Today. As the announcer mentioned, I am Steve frets and the host of the show. This show, as you know, is wonderful. But it’s also about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. And in some instances, it’s about growing your book of business, right? We want to get the marketing, the business development and networking all working in our favor. Why are we doing that? Why are we, you know, making that an effort. And if you’re not making that an effort, you know, for shame, because what it does is it allows you to get control and freedom in your career. And if you don’t know that, I think everyone knows that, I think you guys recognize that that’s what the show is all about. But what it allows is also for you to be portable. And if you’re at a job where you’re at a firm, where the culture isn’t great, the comp is in great, you know, everything’s a secret, what’s my bonus going to be this year, I don’t know, you know, whatever the scenario might be, you know, you might not be living your best life, and you only get one shot at this thing. So we want to help you on the show to just become your best self, your best version. Someone that does this every day and really helps is my friend Jennifer is waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Jennifer?


Practice Panther  [01:41]

Great. Thanks for having me.


Steve Fretzin  [01:43]

Good to see you. We’re gonna get into the weeds very, very soon. But Jennifer spends every single day, you know, working with attorneys and law firms, helping to make them, you know, match up and try to help people live their best lives and be happier in their profession. Before we get into the weeds and really get into what our conversation is going to be. I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors, we’ve got practice Panther, money, Penny, and legalese marketing, all helping you to automate and just generate more business and again, be more efficient with what you do more about them in a little bit. Jennifer, we’ve got a quote of the show. And this is going to relate to your friend Bob Berg, who we all love Bob Berg, he’s the author of the Go Giver and does a tremendous amount of presentations. I saw him years ago, I was mentioning to you earlier do his parlor trick where I call a parlor trick. But, you know, essentially, he’s got such an amazing system for memory that when the first 50 people that walked into his presentation, he could name them not only by name, but also like an order of how we when he met them. So pretty cool. But his quote is the true value is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. So why, you know, welcome to the show, first of all, and second of all, you know, why is that your sort of quote of the show? Well,


Jennifer Gillman  [02:59]

we really do feel like we change lives dramatically. And the candidates that we work with are not the ones that pay us, we represent them, we care about them, we’ve figured out how to get them to a place where they can enjoy practicing law again, and stop spending their whole day apologizing, but the firms love us because we’re so careful about making that perfect match and getting to know our candidates really well and the firm’s where we’re going to place them really well, that you know, it really is a very long term match, which is much more valuable to both sides. You know, the candidates can thrive when they get to the right platform. And because law is the business, the firm’s ends up having some significant revenue from that, and they’re very, very happy. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [03:53]

Well, that’s the key is making that bit helping someone find the place where they can really spend their time and enjoy their career. Jennifer, you’re the president of human strategic group. So your your your background is as a lawyer, correct? Or no,


Jennifer Gillman  [04:07]

yes, I practice law for 12 years. And I had a child who I didn’t get to see while she was awake for almost two years. And I was in the process of trying to find a job with a better schedule that was closer to home because we had moved from New York City to a suburb in New Jersey and commuting was taking a lot of time. And my litigation oriented Labor Employment Practice was, you know, if there was a trial, it meant that I wasn’t home at all, and I wasn’t sleeping at all, and I wasn’t seeing my family at all. So I was trying to go in house when I met a recruiter who offered me a job. And I worked with him for almost 10 years when my kids were little and I needed a very flexible schedule. And about four years ago, I started getting a strategic group.


Steve Fretzin  [04:52]

Okay. And was there an it sounds like there’s some moment where and we’ll call this b lat Voyer tipping point but was there some moment where They’re just maybe it was all the time away from the family. Or maybe it was it was meeting that recruiter. But what was kind of the moment that sort of things happened for you where you decided to make a pretty big shift.


Jennifer Gillman  [05:13]

But the entire time I was practicing recruiters would call and I, you know, I’m a 96 grads. So I practice before firms had websites before, you can easily find candidates and they use the Martindale red book. And they would flip through it, and I went to good law school. So I gotten a lot of calls. And they would always get me on the phone. And I tried to be polite, because I had been told that if I ever wanted to change jobs, I might need one of these people. So I tried not to be really rude or hang up on them. But I, I was thoroughly satisfied with what I was doing. And I wasn’t really looking for another job, especially once I transitioned into labor and employment law, which was so people oriented, and I really did enjoy it very much. And I enjoyed the firm where I worked very much. But I would sometimes entertain these calls. And you know, just say, you seem nice, or you seem like you’re good at your job, I wouldn’t mind staying in touch every quarter or twice a year. But right now, I’m pretty happy. And sometimes during every conversation, if I was talking with them a little bit, they would say, you know, you’re friendly, you would probably like recruiting, we have a couple openings here at our company, you would love it. And I always said no, because I really loved my law practice better than I loved hearing what they had to say. But then cam, the Great Recession of 2008 2009. And the part of my labor employment practice that I really liked the best was the advice and counsel and training and drafting and preventative proactive part. And the part that was starting to wear on me was the litigation oriented part where you know, there were such long night, and everybody lost at the end. Because even if we won the case, there were all kinds of fees involved. And nobody was that happy. And during that recession, that there were a lot of firms that were pulling back on any work they did that was proactive. They were only hiring firms if they were getting sued if they couldn’t avoid it. And so the part of my work that I really loved the bass was kind of on hold everywhere for a while. And so the next time a recruiter asked me if I would give it two weeks, then try it out. And hey, I think you’ll like this, I didn’t love my practice as much as I used to. And it it made sense to maybe give it a try. Yeah, only took two weeks to realize that never really felt like a job. My job there was to talk to people on the phone, take them out to lunch, make friends get to know what they wanted, you know, and right up they did to, you know, an hour or so they might have been a page or two. And I was used to writing 75 page summary judgment briefs that took months to put together and waiting minds for a judge to decide them. If I had a really good candidate that I sent over. Sometimes I had the instant gratification of getting an email back 10 minutes later, or having the phone ring a couple of minutes later. So it was a lot of the same skill set, but a lot more instant gratification and a lot more of the people side of it.


Steve Fretzin  [08:17]

Yeah. So as a legal recruiter, and I’m in a similar space and that people open up to me, my clients open up to me, they tell me what’s really going on. And I don’t work with law firms. So they don’t have any problem being you know, confiding in me. And I consider my brain a vault of secrecy when they talk to me about their situation, their problems, this, that and the other, but I’m sure they share things with you as well. And so why are lawyers? You know, many of them are very unhappy. And do you have a excu have a lot of experience in this in your own, you know, world but then in dealing with different attorneys in different parts of the country and different firms and environments. Why? Why are many lawyers unhappy?


Jennifer Gillman  [08:57]

Well, I think you’ve hit upon a really big issue. I think that not everybody in the general public understands that the rate of mental illness, the rate of substance abuse problems, the rate of suicide is much higher. And in the lawyer population, then in a lot of other professions. A lot of people make jokes about lawyers like what the lawyer at the bottom of the ocean a good start, you know, I sometimes feel like we’re the only ones that are their cheerleaders that really care about them. And the lawyers that I work with, they excelled at school, we call them they were the straight A students, they always knew that they were willing to put in the work, even the extra credit to get it done. Make sure they got that a and now they’re at a firm that’s the wrong platform for them in some way. It doesn’t have an office they need or a practice area, they need it or the rates are wrong or they’re not getting the recognition they need or they don’t have the staffing or they don’t have the marketing help. And it doesn’t matter how hard they work. They can’t get an A anymore, and they work late nights and They work weekends. And some of them, you know, have to turn to substances to be able to work that hard. A lot of them are losing touch with their friends and family. And they’re still not getting an A, because their clients are still upset with them. Their clients are still upset that they don’t have an office in Chicago or trust in a state’s practice, or they can’t staff up that litigation by Monday. And so they feel like I mean, we call it the apology tour. We say the lawyers we work with right before they come to us, and they have their last straw moment. They realize that all day they spend apologizing at work at home, no one’s ever happy with them. And they’re really trying their best. We just want to bring them to a place where that effort is rewarded. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [10:47]

And, you know, that’s something that everybody has to get to a point where they’ve sort of had enough whether that’s business development, where they’re not getting that next move up to equity. They’re not getting the bonus. I mean, people are leaving firms and just starting their own, because they’re just getting so frustrated with all of the politicking and all of the negativity and everything that happens in a different law firms. And obviously, you know that some are better than others. So, you know, what do lawyers then need to do to flip that over and start getting happier start kind of figuring out how to solve a problem that sometimes seems unsolvable?


Jennifer Gillman  [11:23]

Well, a lot of the lawyers that I speak with feel stuck, you know, they, no one has a lot of sympathy for them. They’re in the corner office, they drive a nice car, they live in a big house. And people say, imagine if you were earning minimum wage, or if you had to work outside in the snow. And we always say, Well, that would also be bad. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not bad for someone who’s trying so hard and putting in so many hours, and is feeling so stuck and frustrated. A lot of them feel like well, this is what it’s like to work in private practice. So if I don’t want it to feel like this, I have to open a cupcake bakery or go back to school and get another degree or do something completely different. And it’s through a conversation with us that sometimes they understand that their particular firm is the part that they’re not enjoying. It’s not the practice of law itself. And there are a lot of differences firm to firm. And it really does depend on the practice area and the people you’re working with. I mean, you could be a fabulous real estate lawyer. And everything was great until the firm changes managing partners. And this new managing partner wants to focus just on cybersecurity, because that’s a hot new area wants to rebrand the firm as the cybersecurity experts, takes away your marketing dollars takes away some of your associates. Read does the entire website and all of the firm’s marketing to reflect cybersecurity and not real estate, you’re having trouble serving your existing clients. And when you go to the normal conferences that you attend during the year, one of your friends says, Oh, I didn’t even know Steve, that your firm still does real estate law. I thought you were the cyber security experts. I had something I was going to send you but I sent it to Bob instead. So can you imagine how frustrating that would be. And the fix for that is to go to a firm that values its real estate practice, and provides the correct resources and staffing and marketing so that that lawyer can excel. All these lawyers want to do is do a good job. Yeah. And I do work


Steve Fretzin  [13:25]

with lawyers quite a bit on cross marketing. Because if something gets slow in their area, we don’t want that to be the end of them. We want them to be in a position to bring in business and still have that part of it figured out. But most attorneys are not good at cross marketing. They’ve never learned really how to do it. And I know that can be a source of frustration. So but obviously being in a firm that supports your area of practice and there’s a future there, um, that’s going to be critical.


Jennifer Gillman  [13:53]

There are also some firms that incentivize and reward cross marketing better than other firms. So a firm’s are rewarding you for going on that pitch where the business comes in to another lawyer, but you get something out of a bonus pool. Or if everybody goes on the pitch and you bring in things for different areas of of the firm, they reward. I’m sorry, they awarded by matter, not by client, there’s not some guy who wants played golf with the CEO who gets all of the origination forever, you know, and there are firms that really do find a way to incentivize whether it’s by crediting work more or crediting you know, the matter over the client or doing split origination, but there are firms that understand that cross selling is probably the lowest hanging fruit there is. These are clients that love using your firm. They might love to use your firm in different areas, too. So I think we’re gonna see more of that going forward.


Steve Fretzin  [14:53]

Yeah, it’s a little on the sadder side that I spend a good amount of time teaching lawyers how to address Not just cross marketing, but how to have conversations with their partners and with their firm about how to share origination credit, how to share, you know, maybe management credit, different ways of breaking it up. And I mean, I’m even giving lawyer’s advice of turning away work that is being pushed on them by their partners, because they’re not getting any additional credit. And it’s taking away from their time doing business development and bringing in their own clients, and it’s limiting their ability. So there’s a balance there. And I think, to your point, some firms really get it and advocate for that and have a cooperative atmosphere, and others not so much. And that’s a big part of I think, where people need to consider, you know, a possible move.


Jennifer Gillman  [15:41]

Well, there are two answers to that. I mean, they could go to a firm that already values those types of contributions and splits origination credited appropriately, or they could follow your advice, have a polite conversation with the partner and say, hey, if I sit in my office and work on my work, I’m gonna get origination and working attorney credit on the matter I’m working on. And if I take your work, I’m not going to be able to do my own business development, and I’m going to be rewarded that half as much, it’s really hard for me to say, yes, we should probably change the system here. And if they say that in a polite way, enough times, maybe enough of lawyers will think of a way to incentivize that cross selling because that’s an activity that leads to so much growth for the firm. Now,


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Steve Fretzin  [17:58]

And one of the first things I said to you when we started chatting today was more admiration of the marketing that I’ve been seeing you put out lately, and really demonstrating how not only unhappy some lawyers are, but one of the reasons why they’re unhappy is because they don’t have a portable book of business. And obviously, I’m playing into my own kind of, you know, way here, you know, in but the importance of a book of business today may be more important than ever, and you’re in the middle of that every single conversation, it’s probably one of the first questions that’s asked is, you know, hey, I know you want to move and you’re unhappy. What’s your book, right? It’s like, that’s got to be a part of that conversation. So why is having a book of business so important? Whether someone stays someone goes, someone does whatever? Why is that kind of the critical thing that the lawyers need to consider these days?


Jennifer Gillman  [18:49]

I think having your own clients, having your own book of business gives you leverage over your career forever. So if you’re staying at the firm, and you ask for things, you know, firms have to address the squeaky wheel a little bit, right. So if somebody has a significant book of business, and they need another associate, or they need some more marketing dollars, they need a little help with something or they want an office to be open somewhere, they generally get what they want a little bit faster. Because you know, we say over at our company, if you’ve got your own business, and you’re not very happy where you are, you can pack up your toys and go home anytime you want. So you can pack up your clients and go to a lot of other firms and the firm where you currently work kind of knows that and so the service partners get treated less well than the partners who have their own clients. They’re contributing a lot to the bottom line, but they also have freedom of movement that those service partners don’t have. So if you have your own clients and you’re not happy where you are, you really don’t have to stay. Yeah


Steve Fretzin  [20:00]

I got into a not an argument, but a conversation with a good friend of mine from childhood. And he’s been in house, he’s been at VA law firms, and he just refuses to get a book of business. And that’s a decision. That’s his. And he owns that. And he admits that it’s not for him, and but I just feel for him, because what I see is his his lack of leverage his lack of ability to go where he really wants to go and be in the environment he wants to be in, because he’s not bringing anything with him other than his expertise, which you would think, Boy, that should be more than enough. And it just isn’t these days.


Jennifer Gillman  [20:33]

Yeah, I mean, there are some circumstances where there’s so much work in a given area, we saw that in m&a and 2121. And, unfortunately, I think we’re gonna see that in bankruptcy coming up sometime soon. But that always ebbs and flows. If you have your own clients, that’s forever. And I think even when you’re very busy, even when your practice area is the hottest one, you still need to keep up with the business development activity. Because a lot of practice areas are cyclical, sometimes they get a little bit busier, a little bit less busy, even the ones that aren’t cyclical. And it’s just so important. And I’m sure that you teach all the people you work with, that you don’t have to be the biggest, loudest personality in the room to do business development, there are so many different things you can do to try and find your own clients, there has to be some activity that fits every personality.


Steve Fretzin  [21:29]

Yeah, I mean, that’s one of the first things I have are exercises I go through with an introvert and extrovert IP versus litigation versus whatever is, you know, what are you comfortable with? Where’s your work? You know, what, what can we work on together, that you will actually enjoy. And, you know, let’s create a plan around that, let’s look at the things we can do. And then, you know, breaking things down into, you know, systems and processes and language and things that they can repeat, you know, not repeat, like, like, like, what something that would be repeated, I just totally lost my mind there. But, you know, like, we’re, you know, somebody’s just, you know, like, I see something, and then they repeat it back to me, I’m giving them the language and the steps, but they can own it, they can they can craft it and tweak it in a way that’s going to help them feel comfortable. But it’s still a process to follow versus go out and wing it. No, that’s like a managing partner telling an associate, you just got to get out there. Well, that’s zero help. Right? That’s what I did just get out there. Right. So whatever the case might be a practice area, introvert, extrovert, whatever, you know, we just, they just need they need to, to get the coaching and the training. And if not, through a professional like myself and others that I work with, and that I know, you know, podcasts, read books, you know, recruiters, you know, just learn from people that have been there. And I think that’s just the starting point.


Jennifer Gillman  [22:47]

I agree with you, I think I spend a lot of time giving career advice to lawyers that comes to me. I mean, a lot of times, I hear what they’re saying. And I think it’s a solvable issue at the firm where they already work, and we talk through how they might solve it. And sometimes what they’re asking for is a little outside of what’s realistic, no one’s gonna get a helicopter to get back and forth to work. Even if you don’t like traffic, it’s just not gonna happen. But a lot of times, they’re thinking like, my book of business is not as big as I want it to be. And we talk about what is your real book of business, sometimes what you’re getting credit for at your current firm isn’t the whole story. Sometimes somebody else is getting credit for a client that really came to you, or a client that would really follow you turning away things that you can’t bring in at your current firm, because you don’t have the right practice area, or there’s a conflict or something. But if you were at a different firm, you know, that comes in, you know, every quarter, there’s a deal that looks like that. So we asked people to think more holistically about what their book of business would look like. And sometimes it’s bigger than I think. And there are firms that not every firm needs a million dollars of business. And not every firm thinks a million dollars is enough. There’s a lot of variation in the market. And that’s why talking with a legal recruiter could be helpful. But sometimes they don’t have the book of business that they want to have the opportunities that they’re looking for. They want to go to an amlaw 100 type of firm, they want to go to a specific type of firm that they have in mind. And that’s where working with someone like you would really be helpful. I always say if you have $1 business, that’s your key to getting to a million they get over the you know, reluctance to do business to development activity and you bring in your first dollar all you have to do is build upon that. And having a professional like you to give advice would make it just go so much faster.


Steve Fretzin  [24:45]

Yeah, I mean, it’s a consistent effort done intelligently. And again, you can figure it out on your own and some people through sheer force and effort and time. Mistakes, do it right and they do it it might take longer but they do it. Others would rather cut through All of that and just like be told and given the plays and given the plan and, and work through something that’s been proven out, so everybody’s going to do it a different way and no right or wrong way, it’s up to the individual and how motivated they are. I think that’s a huge part of it is not everybody’s motivated the same way. And it’s not just about money. To your point, Jennifer, you know, it’s about the whole package, right? The family and the downtime, and the balance, and the financial security. And there’s all these things that weigh down on us as professionals. And not everybody has that put together properly, but there’s a way to do it. But it’s not going to be necessarily easy. It just has to be something you’re motivated to go get.


Jennifer Gillman  [25:41]

Yeah, I really do think that if you get to the point where you have a book of business, it becomes a lot easier to find what we call that exact right, perfect fit. You have a lot of choices, you have a lot of firms vying for your attention, and you can really dig down and find that perfect one. But yeah, I mean, their lawyers are so busy already, it’s so hard for them to find more time for business development, using a proven system seems like it would be a better outlay of time than just throwing darts at a wall and hoping that it works out. Yeah, but


Steve Fretzin  [26:14]

you know, anything you invest in, if I want to become a better book or chef, right, and I invest in, you know, recipe books and coaching and training under a top chef, or whatever it might be. Yeah, I mean, I’m going to be much better than if I just, you know, throw stuff stuff in a pot and cook it up and hope that it’s going to work out? Well. You know, there’s there’s ways that people get ahead faster than others. So let’s wrap up before we get to Game Changing book, which people can start to guess what that might be based on the quote of the show. But what’s your final thoughts on what lawyers need to do, ultimately, to enjoy and grow their careers? Kind of let’s wrap up on that point?


Jennifer Gillman  [26:54]

Well, I think a lot of lawyers feel like I hate this, I can’t get out of it. I’m stuck. And I think it really would be beneficial to all of those lawyers out there that are feeling that way to make a list of what is it that I don’t like what is it that I do like, you might be very surprised to learn that you like practicing law, you just don’t like the circumstances and the the obstacles that you have at your current firm. And it is possible to find a firm that for your practice area is better for your clients for the type of industry you’re in. I mean, there, there are so many law firms out there that there’s probably a fit that makes you enjoy practicing law better. And if there isn’t, there are people like Steve and myself who have resources. I know a lot of coaches who help lawyers find something else to do I know a lot of recruiters who help you go in house, but if you can develop your own clients, you kind of have a lot of freedom of choice for the rest of your career. So I do think that’s a good idea. And those same rainmakers who had their own clients don’t have to worry about whether they’re going to participate in any recession we’re going to have, they can just not to


Steve Fretzin  [28:10]

be part of that recession proofing your practice. Jennifer, thank you so much. Let’s move to the Go Giver. Oh, yeah, the book of the game changing book, which I just gave away as the Go Giver. And I want to tell you why I love it and why there’s a there’s a concern that I’m going to share. But I know it’s your favorite books. I want to hear from you first.


Jennifer Gillman  [28:28]

But it is one of my favorite books. I read it so many times and I get something new from it every time. I was an English major. I’m a visionary, not an integrator, when we talk about aos, I like a business book that’s told like a story. So I get sucked into the plot, and I get something out of it. But it really is just a framework for being a good person and still succeeding in business. You don’t have to be somebody that you wouldn’t want to be to be successful.


Steve Fretzin  [28:58]

Yeah. And why I love it is because it’s it’s about giving, it’s called the Go Giver for reason. I mean, it’s about if you give enough, out, value help effort, you build karma. And you also will get back in return what you put out now, the area that I focus on is I’m a giver, and you’re a giver. And we do well with that. I also want to say give intelligently, because I was giving so much into so many people that I didn’t I wasn’t getting not only was I not getting back what I kind of was thinking I would get back but also, I was taking on so many meetings with people that weren’t qualified or that just weren’t a value on my time that I wasn’t doing it intelligently. So when I wrote my set my second book, the networking handbook, I start off by saying no one has wasted more time networking than I have. And one of the reasons was because I was trying to be that go giver, and warrior sure I may have


Jennifer Gillman  [29:53]

wasted just as much time


Steve Fretzin  [29:55]

we’ll have to compare a list of every


Jennifer Gillman  [29:57]

day networking.


Steve Fretzin  [29:59]

Well networking is Don’t waste the time networking is a beautiful thing. However, when I’m putting in time giving career advice


Jennifer Gillman  [30:05]

to people who are probably not going to be able to use my services,


Steve Fretzin  [30:11]

okay, but Alright, so we’re building karma. We’re helping people, I meet with people all the time that need career advice, as well as well, or it. I’ve even meet with coaches that want to get into legal coaching. And I’m talking to them about how to get into the industry that I’m in. And I do that, you know, on a somewhat regular basis. But so what I’m teaching my clients is really about giving, but also coaching people to help give back, because I think the problem is we give because we know what to do, but they don’t always know what to do. So they have a hard time feeding us back, because they haven’t been coached in told and explained what word who we’re looking for. And the other piece of it is watching them to see how they play ball to understand that they can commit to something and execute on something. So if somebody fails you multiple times, once or more, and you have tried coaching them, maybe you don’t want to keep giving to that person, maybe you want to look at a greener pasture. So I think the Go Giver as a philosophy a plus the Go Giver as a reality for lawyers who are busy billing 2000 hours a year, you’ve got to take it with a grain of salt, that there’s also some process that needs to be inserted in there. That’s going to help level it out in a way that is manageable. Well, no


Jennifer Gillman  [31:23]

issue there because go givers sell more is another volume in a series that helps you apply it in a more practical Wow. Okay, wrote a book called endless, endless referrals. That’s very helpful. Yes. And so I think all three of those things together can help give you some more practical advice.


Steve Fretzin  [31:44]

Right on, Jennifer, if people want to reach out to you, they say, Hey, here’s someone I need to talk to you about my career, what is what’s the best way for them to reach you?


Jennifer Gillman  [31:52]

Well, we have a really great website, you should take a look at we have a lot of material, a lot of resources available there at WWW dot Gillman strategic Please remember, Gilman has two L’s and I’m very active on LinkedIn. So I’m happy to connect with anybody who’s interested. I am Jennifer Gilman law firm matchmaker on LinkedIn, I should be pretty easy to find. And, um, you know, we have a place on the website where you can schedule a call where you can ask a question and get answered, we have a lot of blog posts that offer pretty good content. And we also have a downloadable business plan template, which is a good way to look at what you’re doing a rally and what you hope to achieve it least every year, even for lawyers who aren’t moving jobs, but are planning to stay where they are. It’s a good tool.


Steve Fretzin  [32:48]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I mean, this conversation I think should be an is I think an eye opener for many attorneys who maybe either are unhappy or they’re not in the right platform, or just the realization of how important it is to build that book, which is a theme of the show but hearing it from someone else that’s in the trenches, in placing people I think makes it it’s a big, it’s, you know, you’ve got you’re on the front line. So you’re seeing it every day and the importance of it, which I think supports the theme of the show. So just thanks again for coming on and sharing your wisdom.


Practice Panther  [33:22]

Thanks so much for having me. This


Jennifer Gillman  [33:23]

is really fun. Yeah, for me


Steve Fretzin  [33:25]

too, for me too. And more to come with us because you and I are gonna, you know, stay tight and figure out ways to you know, work together in different ways. And you know, thanks to the big Jordan Ostroff legalese connection, right that we have enlisted everybody thank you for spending time with Jennifer and I today I hope you got some good takeaways and just get your mind straight about your career and that there are better paths to take you just have to you know, leverage resources like you know, me and Jennifer and others that care about you and and can try to point you in the right direction and are willing to take some time to listen to what’s going on and advise and your best interests. So you know, listen, you know, be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker everybody, we’ll talk again soon appreciate you spending some time be well.


Narrator  [34:12]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes