Jeremy Poock: The Transfer of Trust and Authority in Your Exit

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jeremy Poock discuss:

  • Designing and brokering your exit strategy.
  • Building your law firm like the business it is.
  • How to implement trust transfer.
  • Selling the machine that you created.

Key Takeaways:

  • At some point, solo lawyers will need to look at their law firm as a business and build it in the way that it will work for them and is something that they might be able to sell in the future.
  • In the Senior Attorney Match model, trust is the flux capacitor that will allow you to transfer your firm (where people are coming to you) to another senior attorney whom you also trust.
  • Even in a solo firm, you do not need to use your name to name your law firm. There is power in brand names and in creating brand value.
  • The winningest meetings happen when there is synergy between the senior attorney, looking to leave, and their younger protege looking to take over.

“Trust transfer is our flux capacitor. We’re transferring the trust that our clients that a senior attorneys clients have in that senior attorney. We are transferring that trust to a successor attorney.” —  Jeremy Poock

Episode References: 

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Narrator, Steve Fretzin, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Jeremy Poock, Practice Panther


Jeremy Poock  [00:00]

Trust transfer is our flux capacitor. Okay? And what are we transferring? We’re transferring the trust that our clients that a senior attorneys clients have in that senior attorney, we are transferring that trust to a successor attorney.


Narrator  [00:23]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:45]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, I am so happy that you’re with me and the show today, we’ve got a lot, a lot to go on a lot to happen here. Listen, we are looking to help you not only be that lawyer, from a standpoint of getting your book of business built and building balance in your life, and just making sure that you’re living the best possible life. But some of you are out maybe at the you know, considering, you know, retiring at some point, or maybe you’re considering merging with another firm, and you’ve got a lot of questions. Today’s show is going to be a little bit more about that. And I’ve got a fantastic friend and guest and Jeremy who’s waiting in the wings to talk all about it. Jeremy, how are you?



Doing? Well, Steve, thanks for inviting me to the program today.


Steve Fretzin  [01:26]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we’re excited. I’m excited to have you and I know we’re gonna get into into the weeds pretty heavily about it. Got it. Of course, thank the sponsors, we’ve got legalese, help them with the marketing, we’ve got money penny on the virtual reception, or live live virtual reception and on your website. And of course, practice Panther helping you get automated with how you run your law practice. Jeremy, you’ve got an interesting quote, not from someone necessarily famous to us all, but very famous to you. And that’s your grandfather, who wrote you, I believe, a lovely Bar Mitzvah note. And one of the things that he said to give you advice in life was always be the first to help, which is, I think, a lesson that our kids need to learn right now, especially the teenagers who are being selfish little pigs. And we got to get them thinking about others and realizing that that’s where the reward in life is. So talk to me about about your grandfather in that quote, and why it was so meaningful to you,



Steve, thanks so much. And I always enjoy opportunities to honor my maternal grandfather had great experiences with all my grandparents. Luckily, my maternal grandfather, Max Ray called My brothers and I call him HIPAA. He just had it out from the get go to just teach us life lessons, Steve, I mean, he grew up working from age six selling newspapers in Cambridge, Massachusetts, you wake up early, sell papers in the morning after school go out to the corner of Beacon Street and Mass Ave in Boston. No, that’s not an easy commute for a kid, bring home the money, put it on the kitchen table. And when my brothers and I were going up, he wanted to make sure that you know that we understood that even though we were living in a pretty much an upper middle class kind of suburban life, as kids that that we really needed to know, you know that it’s not easy out there. And that he worked really hard in life and sort of all my grandparents really. And so the lessons that that that people have taught my brothers and me, we all reflect on him all the time. And we’re just really grateful he had such a meaningful impact, and wouldn’t be surprised if I quote him again, during the course of this podcast.


Steve Fretzin  [03:33]

Yeah, and honestly, the people that look to help first and that look to give first and they always do better in business and in life than people that just take and are kind of, you know, greedy about things and they just don’t, they just aren’t going to be as relevant in the marketplace and in a year to five years to 10 years. So I think your grandfather was a very wise man. And and I’m glad that you were able to learn from him and figure out you know, the the lessons he was teaching you or, you know, important for your life. Thank you. Yeah. So Jeremy pook, you are the founder of senior attorney match. And now some people are gonna say, Well, wait a second, is he a recruiter? The answer is no, you’re not a recruiter, you’re actually doing something very interesting. And I’m gonna save that for you to give your background and then get into like, what you actually do for lawyers, because it’s super interesting. And I said, right before we got on air that, you know, there just aren’t a lot of people doing this. And that’s okay for you. That’s okay for everybody. But I think lawyers need to know about you. And what you do is a very important kind of, like, I’ll get into my father later because I think he made a terrible, you know, end of the career decision. But anyway, good. You’re on. You’re on.



Go for it. Steve, thanks so much. So senior attorney match, we do two things. We work with attorneys primarily that are that are practice more than 30 years and we help them to design succession plans for their practices, how can they sell their practice? What is their practice worth? Should they consider an internal sale or sale to what we call a glowing law firm and then After designing plans with our clients, we then go out and implement on them. So then we broker them. So you were saying before that senior attorney match that we’re not recruiters. You’re right, technically, we are brokers. We’re brokering the sales of law practices. We’re facilitating that though, by and large, the recruiting that is, and we’re going to talk a lot about this. I think, Steve, that many internal successors, right? Think about your senior associates, your junior partners, even your partners in law firms that are led by these senior attorneys, attorneys that have practices more than 30 years, those junior people in your practice, they often don’t want to purchase your practice internally. So we’re offering structuring the sales by recruiting senior attorneys and their lawyer staff and their non lawyer staff into growing law firms. Yeah, and what’s your


Steve Fretzin  [05:51]

back? How do you I mean, I know you’re, you’re an attorney and give but give what led up to this because that that’s not something that you came up with overnight. This is something that was led to,



yeah, thanks so much. So so a couple of answers there, I probably should have gone on stage, right? It’s a business school instead of law school. And then I think there’s a bit of genes to this, it took me a little while to see this, Steve, my father and my paternal grandfather, both went to law school, practice for a little bit, and then went outside of the law and went into real estate and they were in commercial real estate sales and management of real estate. So it’s not all that surprising, but my trajectory that is went to law school, gravitated towards working with business brokers, so helping them paper deals. Okay, so I got pretty close with Business Brokers throughout New England, join the New England Business Brokers Association, help them paper their deals on both the buy side and the sell side. And then to your question about, okay, what led up to senior attorney match began observing at those meetings, that their focus and was very smart of them at the turn. So weird, Steve to say the turn of the century, it makes me feel like I did that turn of the century, like 1901, not like 2001. But for the purposes around the year 2000, the Business Brokers were already focusing on the boomers, and there was sitting in those meetings, why aren’t they brokering the sales of law practices? And that’s really where the idea went off thinking, wow, there are there are hundreds 1000s 10s of 1000s of Boomer attorneys in the United States, let alone New England where I am, and they have value to their practices. And if the business brokers in this room aren’t brokering the sales, it doesn’t mean there’s not an opportunity here, there’s not a market need for it. And that’s really where the idea for senior attorney match came up. And that was about 2010. And then I launched the business in 2013.


Steve Fretzin  [07:42]

Okay, And was there any form of a be that lawyer tipping point for you, and either that decision or just in your career?



You know, I’m very grateful that I’ve been working with a certain business coach for a long time. So he and I would noodle over this idea for a while, you know, because you know, as it was with student loan debt, and having a job getting married, thinking about having children, and they’re like, Wow, am I really gonna stop what I’m doing and practicing live a decent job? I don’t like it. And I know Steve, you work with a lot of attorneys like that, right? I fell in that category. Like I’m practicing law, but it’s not where it’s not where my passion is. And then the sort of tipping point to your to your question is that I was working with a colleague of mine, a financial planner, who was purchasing the practice of another financial planner, and I was thinking myself cheese, this is exactly what I want to do. I want to be brokering these. But on the lawyer side, coincidentally, the lawyer on the on the sell side happened to be a senior attorney. Right? It’s amazing attorney I’ll mention is they have so much respect RAM Bob Garfinkel, okay, of Braintree, Massachusetts, and Bob had that prototypical internal person that could that was not going to purchase Bob’s practice. And I talk with my business coach Scott and don’t have the guts because I’m like, oh, what should I say to Bob? Should I say it in the Bob. And so after the deal closed on the sale, the financial planning, I said, you know, Bob, we just closed on this deal. If you would ever think of selling your law practice, I would love the opportunity to do the exact same thing. We just papered over our clients. And luckily, he said, Yeah, Jeremy, you know what, let’s, let’s give it a shot. And it was a great experience. And I’m so grateful to Bob. He’s a lawyer’s lawyer. And I’m sure Steve, you know what I mean by that, like, just in terms of the contracts and whatnot. So many of my documents today that we use, I’m so grateful for all a long nights I had with Bob, we’re thankful because we we really crafted a lot of documents that I that I still use today. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [09:39]

well, it doesn’t hurt to have a lawyer, close lawyer, like my father, you know, helped me out in many situations. You know, where I was able to get through the language on a contract or something where, you know, I got into trouble with the police one time and he just like he’s like, wait in the car and I went into the police station. He came out he says, Alright, we’re okay. I was like, What the heck, that he never told me what he said. But anyway, he refused to tell me but he got me out of a jam. Yeah, it doesn’t hurt doesn’t hurt. So I think there’s a disconnect between lawyers thinking of their law practices as businesses and their their mindset about like, hey, I can actually build something that’s sellable. So why why is there that disconnect between lawyers and thinking about a sellable business similar to if I ran a marketing company? Or if I ran a, you know, a company that provided products?



Sure to quit? It’s a really great question. And many lawyers, of course, don’t think of their their businesses as a business because they think of it as a profession, right. Like I said before, like I should have gone Steve, right into business school, because so many lawyers, we go into this because of the love of the law, the love of the profession. And then we realized at one point or another that okay, well, you know, what, by default, I’m actually running a business. They don’t, but I, but what I need for my business, is I need clients, right? The more clients I have, the more money that comes in, I can hire, I can hire other lawyers, I can hire other support staff. Towards the end of the year, I can look and see, okay, am I actually making money this year? What looking towards next year, I know that I just need to bring in this number of clients and build this number of billable hours, and I’ll have a good year. That’s that mindset of, okay, am I building something of wealth that I could actually sell is typically not part of the mindset until senior attorneys start reaching like age 6065 70. And they’re like, oh, wait a second. I actually have something of value here. But what is it? Like? What, what? Who would want it because my clients come to me? Okay, I get that all the time, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [11:50]

Right. I was just gonna just, I mean, you pivoted perfectly like I was about to say, Hey, I’m the business, right? My father, Larry Fretzin, was the business. And so how do you sell something where everybody loves the lawyer? They don’t have, you know, the 10 underlings under them and that infrastructure setup, so is that even a sellable thing?



Alright, so I’m gonna skip ahead a bit. Okay, I’m going to skip ahead to what we call the flux capacitor of the senior attorney mesh model. So I think everybody will remember that really fun scene back to the future, right? Where we’re Dok explains like how time travel works, right? It’s the flux capacitor. Okay. And hence, you know, Michael J, Fox can go back to 1980, whatever. Okay. To answer your question, like, how does any lawyer transfer the value is what we call trust transfer. Trust transfer? Is our flux capacitor. Okay. And what are we transferring? We’re transferring the trust that our clients that a senior attorneys clients have in that senior attorney, we are transferring that rust to a successor attorney. And here Steve, it’s a syllogism I was really bad in geometry, like real bad. I sat in the back of class, I was in the 50s club with a I won’t name this other person. He’s probably a Supreme Court justice at this point, for all I know, but he and I were terrible geometry. We’d sit in the back we were in the 50s Club. For whatever weird reason I just remembered probably because of like the name of it. I just remembered syllogism, okay, that AIG if A equals B and B equals C, then C was a. And that is part of trust transfer. That is if the clients trust the senior attorney, the senior returning trust his or her successor, the clients will trust the successor now how does this all fit in, in terms of law firm sales? Because the value of the practice is based upon at least right now what we call law firm sales 1.0. It’s based upon the SR attorneys client list, that book of business that lawyers developed over the course of their careers. That’s the value okay, for lawyers to be paid consideration on the value of that client list. They need to implement that syllogism that trust transfer for attorney Jones to say, You know what, I just joined the ABC law firm. And I’m working with Attorney Diane Smith. Diane is amazing. In the same practice areas me let’s say commercial real estate, she can releases and revise leases, even better than me. So when we have this new shopping center lease that you want me to do, because I’ve been doing for the last 20 years. You know what, Diane is gonna do it just as well. Steve Wynn that that just as well right phrase is said the trust transfer happens. The client sticks with the successor, the successor pays a percentage of the fee to the senior attorney. And that’s how the law firm sales and we can go into more details on it but that’s essentially a law firm sales happen. It’s a it’s a sharing of fees based upon the clients that joined the SEC assessors stay with the successor and those sharing of fees or during a negotiated period of time. Yep.


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Jordan Ostroff  [16:14]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:34]

And I think my father’s big mistake in you look at a fantastic career and just celebrated his 80th birthday with this weekend. Yeah. And he’s still kicking. Just so funny. Check out the 200th episode of Be that lawyer, everybody, if you want to hear me stick it up with my father Larry’s lawyer. But he in the 11 in, you know, a half hour, got a couple of knuckleheads to basically take over the business, his individual solo practice. And they ran it into the ground in six months, because he didn’t do the trust transfer. He didn’t he wasn’t educated, he wasn’t knowledgeable about how to do what you’re saying, Jeremy, and it’s so important that people talk with you. Because it could be the difference between having that additional revenue and that additional, you know, business sale potentially, versus just again, running into ground. It was like not that it was all for nothing. He made a living and he got the retirement and all that. But there’s more that, you know, on top of that, if you work smartly, work intelligently, I should say before you you know, get to the point where it’s it’s the 11th and a half hour.



Right. Yeah, you know, at some of our clients do, they do come to us too late or in Arizona, we’ve worked with the estates of lawyers, and they’re, there’s really no value because we go back to that flux capacitor, you need the lawyer there to transfer the trust. And the ideal buyer is typically what we’re saying to our clients is typically your friendly competitor, it’s typically the lawyer that’s 20 years younger than you. And that has that same level of hunger, that you had to grow your business and to be top class and your same practice areas. And that exists typically in almost every community. That is the right buyer, we’re finding that wants to take what you as the senior attorney, have developed and continue it and grow it and especially Steven, you know, kudos to you for your for your new book. I can see right behind you. Yeah, it isn’t rocket, you know, isn’t rocket science. And you recognize about the the, you know, the impact that we’re now in the digital age, social media, so many of our clients that they haven’t connected with their clients on LinkedIn, or in any meaningful ways digital marketing wise, I’ll just share with you Stiva. This was really fascinating. A client of mine recently joined a growing firm, right. And she was super organized. So we knew she had 997 clients. Like that’s really amazing that like she had it down the client list. Well, she sent via Constant Contact to all of our clients announcing that she joined this growing firm. You know, what the open rate was on that now? 80%. Yeah, right. That’s really high. Oh, yeah. Because that trust is so high. And so those the lawyers of that firm are really psyched, they’re going to be able to market to her clients, of course, in ethical ways for the areas that she’s in. But that practice, which is very typical for buyers leave that practice does more than what she’s done. So from across marketing standpoint, there’s all kinds of opportunities there to leverage that trust transfer.


Steve Fretzin  [19:37]

And there’s right now a record number of lawyers, whether they’re being forced into it, or it’s a personal decision, that are getting out of the law firm space and starting their own their own gig with a couple of buddies or a couple of gals or whatever it might be or just on their own. And they’re not thinking about you know, in some cases, they’re not thinking about the sale at the end. They’re just thinking about making it you know, how do we you know, build enough business for to you year after year and put money away or whatever. My question to you is, how different is it for someone to just stay solo, build those client relationships and do great work for, you know, till they’re 60 or 65, or whatever the year is, versus someone who brings in an associate and then two and then three and has like, I’ve got some clients that have, you know, four or five lawyers working for them with them. How different is that when it comes to saleability of firm?



Yeah, so we’re talking about a couple of things here. Okay. So let’s talk about that first, a lawyer that has like multiple lawyers working under him or her, right. And they presumably they cover several practice areas, there’s not an internal buyer, like that’s real interesting value there to that growing firm. So I’ll say, especially in today’s market, but regardless of the of whether there is a need for talent as there is right now, at this point in history, right, so the need for talented lawyers and office staff, right, were to take those lawyers, the senior attorney, the lawyers, the lawyer, staff go to another firm, hugely value don’t need to train those people, they’ve got the relationship with the clients, great value there. Now, let’s talk about what you were saying about the solo, right, the solo person doesn’t build it, you know, builds up clients. So you know, over, you know, over the years, I’m going to break that into two parts. Okay. There’s the let’s assume that those people that create their own practice now post 2020, if they’re smart, and hopefully they are, they’re going to realize that we have now entered in what we call the 3.0, digital age, for law firms, they’re going to recognize that there’s brand value, okay, that they can be out there marketing their firm using SEO, pay per click, okay, creating a trade name for their law firm. And I’m sure clients of yours are doing this now. Right? Why the heck in 2022, heading towards 2023. And further into this decade, why do we still need to name law firms after the surname, you know, of the founding lawyer, like we’re not in 17th century England anymore, right? We are in the 21st century, and using trade names is permissible. I’m pretty short every single state today in the United States. So if that lawyer is creating real brand value, and even as a solo has brand value, a URL that we can show all kinds of data analytics of how the clients come in, that has, that has real value, the solo that practices in a pre 2020 world, okay, let’s just say, let’s just pick on a particular area of intellectual property, right? They’re amazing at, you know, at IP litigation, right, they were charging out at $1,200 An hour and some firm in Chicago, now they’ve got a boutique practice, and they charge at $800 an hour, and they’ve got six clients, and like, they kill it right, as a solo doing the half. What do they what do they have to sell? Right? They have six clients. Right? And so like, those six clients could be huge, right? Yeah. But those those clients aren’t so huge, like, what is that person necessarily have to sell? If they’ve, you know, if 40% of those six sign I got a call like this recently, 40% of those six clients, it makes up all of the revenue. And I you know, in a speech sharing situation, okay, great. Could they do something when they’re looking to retire and fee share off of those clients, that’s where trust transfer is, is huge. The person with the brand value that has data analytics, we’re going to be heading into what I call law firm sales. 2.0. Soon enough, we’re already there. in personal injury law, where we’re we have predictability. Okay, John Morgan knows from Morgan and Morgan. They know how many clients they’re going to be getting in each of their markets where they’re pouring in tons of digital and TV, and I don’t know if they’re on radio, I certainly certainly Oh, yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [23:43]

they can they got the biggest spend in the industry, right? Yep. So it’s so I think, I think it sounds like you’ve got an opportunity regardless, but I just wonder if somebody’s a solo and they say, you know, what, if I can add two or three associates on 50, let’s say I’m 55. I’m a lawyer and I go, you know, I really want to retire by the time I’m 65 Or at least slow down a bit. If I said look, if I can just bring in three or four associates and whatever and not offer them the pro Of course, they could buy the practice if they want but if it’s built to sell and you’ve got that support team in place, you’ve got the lawyers in place, your overheads low, your brand is high, is that kind of like the promised land for a small firm, you know, to make it at the end of the game?



So, yes, with a but okay, that is in law firm sales 1.0, which I which I mentioned a few minutes ago. The consideration of that, just to be clear to the listeners is an urn out. Okay, is that we’ve got these clients and the referral sources that the seller is bringing over including that example that you just that you just brought up and up and buyers will say great you bring over those clients and referral sources we will pay you that percentage over a negotiated period of time said differently. That is a one 100% seller financed sale of a law practice. Now the lawyer that can show data analytics and predictability of that the clients are coming in not just because, you know, this is the Fretzin Law Firm, okay, and they’re asking for Steve Fretzin. I know, Steve, you’re not a lawyer, but let’s just


Steve Fretzin  [25:20]

put your your but you’re selling, you’re selling the machine that’s been created?



Correct. Okay. In that situation, then banks are going to start actually lending to buyers, because of the machine that you just mentioned. And that, and it’s really fun, Steve, and I’ll just share this with you. Because you get to see, you know, unlike a lot of, you know, like, people involve the legal industry, outside of like, CFOs, you get to see a lot of p&l of your law firms. Luckily, luckily, but I do too. And it’s so fascinating to me, that the marketing spent by most law firms that I see is still way too low, way, way too low. And as a result, those growing firms, you just talked about this lawyer that wants to build it up to several associates and sell later for some money into digital marketing and create that machine that you’re talking about, and showed that the revenues are coming in via Google and via other kinds of digital entrees into the firm instead of oh, I’m looking for an attorney Fretzin. I’m looking for attorney book, I’m looking for attorney Johnson. Now, that’s going to make the law firm even more valuable and can actually and will actually Garner upfront money. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [26:32]

Well, that’s just so interesting. I think this is where people’s minds need to be. It’s the value of what you can bring in and the relationships in the marketing working together, the relationship side with the clients and in the business development side, and the marketing side working together. And I’ve written on this, even recently in the Chicago Daily law bulletin, I think it might be Oh, back from you know, let’s say August, you know, July, August, September and 2022. Talking about, you know, intelligent lawyers need to consider the relationship side, the business development side of the mountain, and then the marketing side of the mountain and they meet at the peak. And that’s really where the business generation happens. And also, it sounds like that’s where the business might be more sellable.



Yeah, exactly. And then there’s also the handoff, you know, and and I really appreciate the opportunity to be that lawyer and be with you and know, you’re you’re one of the country’s leading coaches, when it comes to business development for lawyers. And we’re regularly saying, Steve, that the this is not a word in the English language, but we say it nonetheless. Okay, the winningest, maybe it is a word but I don’t think so. The winning is meeting from a business development standpoint, is when the senior attorney 60 something or early 70 Something walked into the meeting with one or 240 Somethings. Right, the client knows they’ve got the wisdom of the senior attorney that they have trusted for so many years, together with that youth, but not too young attorney. And to get that synergy down between the two of them is there’s a need for coaching, right? Because you’re typically of two different generations where often that winning is meeting we’re talking about needs coaching, because you’ve got the boomer attorney walking in either with the ex or or the millennial, but when they’re in tune with each other clients love it


Steve Fretzin  [28:19]

well, in the biggest misstep that lawyers make. And again, I’ve had countless, you know, experts come in and talk about this with my Managing Partner, you know, my roundtable groups and things is that the lawyer, everyone wants me, I’m the lawyer, I’m the name on the door. I’m the lawyer, everybody wants on be that lawyer, whatever it is. And they haven’t figured out the importance of having that Lieutenant, having that 40 Something and making sure that clients understand this is a team, this isn’t me, it’s a week. It’s not i It’s we and if that’s not how you’re playing the game, you’re in for, you know, trouble down the road, you’ve got to make it the Wii game, not the AI game. And understand that that transfer of, of authority and expertise and all those things happens when you bring in that 40 Something or 50 something to your point. And I just think it’s like they just can’t seem to get over that hump of understanding how that works.



Yeah, I can’t agree with you more. You know, I mean, especially for those lawyers that want to be able to monetize their law practices, right. We’re all thank God, right. We’re all living longer. Okay. And we’re going to lawyers are going to need lawyers make plenty of money, but lawyers are going to need the the money that their practices can generate. But without doing that trust transfer that you just referenced that we talked about, we’ve talked about throughout this podcast today. They’re not going to be able to monetize it to the extent that they can. And I’ll just share with you Steve, I’ve been doing this for 10 years and not that the we’ve served 1000s and 1000s of clients but in doing this for about 10 years now often since 2013. I’ve only come across one unicorn, one unicorn and she’s an unbelievable mediator and I think that she has such a skill set that replacing her and that particular skill set very, very hard. But by and large, that there are not unicorns sorry for to add some humility to the really amazing lawyers that listen to this podcast. But yes, there are lawyers that can do it just about as well as you, and you can teach them. And by the way, your clients want to know that they’re going to be in good hands when you’re not going to be there for the rest of your life. Yep.


Steve Fretzin  [30:32]

Really, really important stuff. Let’s wrap it up with with. Well, before we get to Game Changing book, let’s wrap it up with Do you have a success story to share? That, you know, keep it brief, but like a success story that happened the last couple years where someone maybe didn’t realize they had this business that was sellable, or this business that was transferable or whatever? And then what was sort of the outcome of that in? How they kind of wrap things up in their career.



Yeah, thanks so much for asking. So So I have a very much on point answer for that. So I’m in a networking group, and someone in my networking group contacted me because she shared space with a go to zoning attorney for a given city and message to a certain town in Massachusetts. And she said, You know, I think you should talk to the person I share space with, because he’s thinking of just hanging up his cleats. I heard you help people sell law practices, why don’t you just talk to him? I called him he’s like, I don’t think I have anything. I’m just going to spread out my clients gonna hand them out. So my colleagues call it a day, right? So what do you not like to hide? You either go to zoning attorney for this really affluent town in Massachusetts. And it just so happened by coincidence that and I don’t represent many growing firms, typically representing the senior attorney. But a growing firm that I represent, they have a zoning attorney that happens to have an exploit onpoint experience in the adjacent town as this town had a little bit experience in the town that this senior attorney was in Long story short, he joins that firm, he’s been able to make 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of dollars. Okay, he’s continued to practice a little bit towards what we call a win win win win for the senior attorney win for the growing firm to get those clients and build off of his reputation and a huge win for the clients. Because they’re in there. They’re in great hands.


Steve Fretzin  [32:17]

Yeah. Well, that’s exactly it. And I think again, you know, if we could go back in time with the flux capacitor, and we could get my father, you know, I wish I could have gotten my hands on him, you know, a year or two before he retired. And I’m not saying he would have a whole different lifestyle. He’s a, you know, he grew up in the depression. So like, you know, he still doesn’t know how to spend money. I hate spending money on anything. I got him a sweater for his birthday for Marshalls, just because I knew he didn’t want me to spend a lot of money. I mean, that’s, that’s where he is in his mind. So that’s okay. And I said it was Marshall Fields without the fields because that’s gone anyway. But I’m only my wife got that job. By the way. When I said, No, I got it. Don’t worry. Oh, no, but I’m saying like, at the time when I mentioned that joke in front of my family, like no one really picked up on my work. Great. So it’s, I think it’s really important that people understand, you know, get in early to, you know, to talk with you, Jeremy or you know, to make sure that you understand the numbers to understand what the value is to understand what the saleability is now or in the future, if people want to get in touch with you to understand kind of what their potential is for the future and all that, what are the best ways for them to reach you?



Thanks so much. So the website, Senior Attorney, and then also LinkedIn. And many of us use LinkedIn today. And on LinkedIn, I lead a twice a month, seven minute live stream called the state of the market for law firm sales in seven minutes. So welcome people to check that out.


Steve Fretzin  [33:41]

Yeah, awesome. We’ll put all that in the show notes. Real quick. We’ve got I don’t think it’s a game changing book. I think it’s a game changing, like social media guy, Gary Vee, right?



Yeah. So I’m hooked on Gary Vaynerchuk. And, you know, I know you’d asked about you know, a game changing book, but I’m a lousy reader lawyer was allows your reader who would have known, but I really enjoy podcasts. And, you know, and listening to Gary and he puts out podcasts every single day is very helpful in terms of, you know, listening to something in the non legal space, but he focuses so much on digital and we in law are always behind, right? And so to listen to people that are a little ahead and to see where it going, where’s the legal industry is in digital we’re getting we were dragged into it by the by the pandemic, we’re not leaving it, and law firms need to get much more digitized.


Steve Fretzin  [34:31]

I will check out Gary Vee I know he I’ve watched his stuff for years. And you know, Jeremy, just thanks so much for being on the show sharing your wisdom. I think a lot of people listening have their eyes open to the potential if they work hard to be that lawyer and you know, focus on the marketing and business development. You know, getting that Lieutenant in place. There’s all kinds of great things to do to end the business or wind it down in a way that’s more profitable. So just appreciate you you sharing your wisdom.



The really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks so much. Thanks for all you do,


Steve Fretzin  [34:59]

man. A pleasure and everybody thank you for spending some time with Jeremy and I today hopefully it helps you to get a little closer to being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well. We’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [35:15]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes