Joan Butler: Focusing Beyond The Problems

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Joan Butler discuss:

  • Looking at what is working and focusing on that.
  • Why so many people are unsatisfied with their life.
  • The Power Life Script.
  • The paradigm shifts in our lives.

Key Takeaways:

  • The more we focus on the things that are broken and are not working, the more things will continue to be dysfunctional.
  • People need to take time to listen to what they truly love and what is inside, not what anyone else is saying to them.
  • Enacting changes comes through making decisions.
  • The content of our life is the curriculum of our evolution.

“Where our attention goes, energy flows. If we have an intention to have this kind of life, and we’re over here, but our attention and is on the problem, where’s the energy going to flow? It’s going to flow more towards the problem.” —  Joan Butler

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Episode References: 

About Joan Butler: Joan Butler is a coach and consultant who has supported mid-life individuals going through challenging times professionally and personally. She helps them bridge the gap from where they are to where they would love to be in their life. Her refreshing approach as a coach and consultant leverages humor to help others learn how to think and feel differently, breaking down barriers so that they can cultivate more confidence, new vision, happiness, and joy in their life.

Connect with Joan Butler:  

Website: https://relationshipcenterforchange.com/

Email: [email protected]

Phone: 707-769-1215

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joan-menke-ma-17628812/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/rcforchange

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JoanMenkeButler

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joanmenkebutler

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer, I am Steve Fretzin, you uh, May have been hearing my name a little bit around town. Uh, this podcast has been around for just over three and a half years. We are coming up on 300 blah, blah, blah episodes and almost 10, 000 or 100, 000 downloads. Not 10, 000, 100, 000 downloads.

So this show is doing great. If you’re enjoying it, you’re finding value in it, please don’t keep it a secret. Tell your lawyer friends about it. Give us a great review. Write something pleasant. If you’re unhappy with it, well, then you’re probably not listening anyway. So there you go. Problem resolves itself.

We’ve got Joan Whitting in the wings. How you doing, Joan? Good. Thanks for having me on, Steve. Yeah, you were so excited to be on the show that I saw you pop into another Zoom meeting with me like yesterday and I’m like, I think she’s a day early and then you emailed me and said, no, I just want to make sure the link works.

I was like, that’s so enthusiastic about being on my show. I just, I got excited about it too. So that’s all good. That’s all good. As everyone knows, this show is about helping you to be that lawyer and that’s involving someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And, um, Jonah is going to help, you know, really work through a lot of the, what I call head trash today.

We all have our own little head trash. And, um, so we need to bring people on here that can straighten you out on that. And it starts off with a great quote of the show. And that is, uh, the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. And then if I had some like spooky music, right, that would go along with it too, but I don’t.

So. Ooh. So first of all, Joan, welcome to the show. So happy that you’re here and, and please indulge us and give us some insights on that quote and what it sort of means to you. Yeah. Well, I think that for all of us, we will face situations or conditions that we know it’s time to make a change. And sometimes, you know, we get pushed into it, right?

Sometimes we have a longing and we want to go towards it. And it’s not easy either way, actually. And so, when we decide that we want to go to the next step in our life and really make a change that we know is needed, maybe physically it’s telling us, emotionally, psychologically, financially. You know, it’s about when we have the fear to befriend the fear to go into the cave where our treasure is, because that truly is where it is.

It’s in our, it’s the heart’s desire that we have to listen to. And so, so often we go with our pros and cons rather than our longing and our discontent. When is it the heart? Yes. Yes. Yes. And it’s interesting that a lot of times the fears that we have. Are like legit fears like I’m not running away from a tiger.

I’m not running away from a tornado like it’s I’m afraid of having this conversation with this client or I am concerned or afraid of putting myself out there in a networking meeting because I might get rejected or might be a waste of time or I’m. You know, whatever it is, there’s, there’s so much fear out there that I don’t know where’s that all coming from.

Where’s it all being built up from? Well, I think we see it all around us and, and so often, you know, if we turn on the TV or the news, everything is about what’s not working. And the more we focus on what’s not working, it doesn’t work. Right? Yeah. So, how do we begin to turn that around to look at what is working?

What are we grateful for? Right? And, you know, and that’s really a challenge sometimes when we’re in circumstances or situations that we don’t prefer. But that’s the work right there. Well, that’s fantastic. And, uh, I know we’re going to take it to much further depths in the coming, uh, minutes, but give us a little bit of your background.

You’re, uh, Joan Butler, co owner of Relationship Center for Change. And how did you get into coaching? How did you become a coach? Give us the, I don’t know where you want to start, six years old or, or, or above, but leading into your be that lawyer tipping point of kind of where your career took a big transition.

Well, one of the things I want to say is, um, I’m also a licensed marriage family therapist and I. And I midlife actually did that career. Okay. But I started out, there’s a book called goal free living, and it talks about the different kinds of people. And I would say I’m more of a river people. And what that means is that we sort of, we go into life and we Eddie off a little bit and we try something and then we go back on the river and we Eddie off again and try something.

And so I’ve done many things. Uh, I worked in marketing and advertising. I worked in sales. I had my own food businesses. I was a co owner of that. And then midlife, I really decided I wanted to go back and get my masters. And I wasn’t really clear at the time. I was trying to do a combination between a broadcasting degree and development of a child into a children’s talk show, actually.

And the dean of the school said, you know, I don’t think this is going to work what you’re doing here. And so I just started taking classes after classes and then it led me to become actually licensed as a therapist. But I knew that that wasn’t the end result because I come from a family of 10 in the Midwest in Michigan, and when I was 3, I had, uh, my mother delivered twins and then immediately got pregnant after that.

And the twins were both like 2 pounds, 3 pounds and born with really, uh, mental and physical chronic conditions. And so it threw my, my whole family into a crisis and my dad didn’t go to through crippled children’s for many, many years. So I learned at three to sort of become sufficient without mentorship.

And I call it being sufficient in an insufficient way. It’s like getting in a car and driving without having drivers, a driver training in for many years. I did that until about midlife when. Sort of, I learned, okay, I need to get some mentorship. So not only did I get my license as a therapist, but I went on to several different forms of school and coaching to really get deeper in how do I not just sit there and feed a person a fish, but really teach them how to fish.

And so now I work with curriculum on people in terms of, with people so that they can learn the tools of, of, of how to help them, especially when it’s in stressful situations. Yeah. And you got into that, I’m assuming, you know, to be of service and to help others and, and to really, and you enjoy that part of it.

But here’s my question. We’re living in a very weird world at a weird time. And what the hell’s wrong with people? How about that for a question? Yeah. But what is wrong with people and I travel, you know, travel to Europe and yeah, people aren’t perfect there either. But over here it just seems like people are just not getting better.

It’s we’re not, we’re not listening. We’re not taking time to really listen to what we love. We’re concerned about what’s out there than what’s in here and it gets us in trouble. It gets us in, because then we wake up and somehow our life is off course. You know, I was thinking about the show and making it more really conducive to your audience.

And I think about, it was just a year ago that I had a woman that called me up. I had worked with her many, many years ago in therapy. And she said, Joan, I’m, I’m calling you to let you know that I might have an attorney call. And, you know, I just want to know if you have my records and so we talked, I said, well, what’s going on?

And she was in the middle of a dispute, a workman’s comp dispute. It was during COVID. She was a kind of a head director, administrator of a school. She had a certain philosophy in terms of keeping safe. Other people didn’t. And she was in the middle of this workman’s cop situation, and she was scared. She was nervous.

She felt betrayed by it. And I said, you know what? Let work with me, work with me and doing some coaching right now. And so we got her a power life script where she started working with what she wanted. The fact was still there that she was in this situation, but over time, she said, two months later, she said, I went to my attorney and he says, what’s going on with you?

He said, you’re in such a different place. Why? Because she was focused on what she wanted rather than the problem of what was happening. We were not denying that the problem was there. But she started looking toward what she was longing for next. Does that make sense? It does, it does. But I think people are now wondering the next question, which is what the heck is a power life script?

So I’m wondering too, because you mentioned it and kind of just breezed through it into your answer, which is wonderful, but we have to go back. And I would love to hear what, what that, what your definition of that is. What is that? Power life script that someone would have life script is sort of you’re listening again more from the heart in terms of what your longing is and what you’re and what you’re discontent is discontent is pushing you away from something longing is bringing you towards something and then we do a blueprint so I help you calibrate a blueprint of what you are looking at to do next in your life and that what we do is we start to bridge the gap from where you are to where you want to be.

Thank you. And this is where people get stuck, because there’s a saying, where our attention goes, energy flows. So if we have an intention to have this kind of life, and we’re over here, but our attention is on the problem, where’s the energy going to flow? It’s going to flow more towards the problem. And so, and I want to say this with a lot of attorneys, you know, when they, when they are, you know, if they’re working with a client, failing law, going through a divorce or workman’s comp thing or litigation, they’re taking on the stress of their client.

And if their client is focused more on the problem rather than going to the next situation of what they want in their life, for both of them, they create a better, improved situation and it goes smoother as well. The first part of a vision life script is. It’s, it’s the blueprinting of it getting really, really clear.

You can’t go an architect and just say, I want a nice life. You have to go to the architect and say, these are the things that I really would love. I want it and get really specific. I want, I want the, the kitchen with the island and I want like you’re giving that kind of description and then same thing with your life.

Yeah. When people first start writing a power life script, they go to, we call it avoidance goals or like approach goals. It’s normal for all of us to first go to approach goals. Well, I don’t want that, right? But what do you want? Because people can tell you what they don’t want. But it’s really, it’s, it’s really different to get a person to say what they want.

And a part of the process is going about what they don’t want, right? Yeah. We go from the, from the blueprinting to the bridging, the gap between where they are and where they want to be. And then we start to work on the building of what they want next in their life. Got it. And for people that are maybe not ready for that, right?

That, that could be down the line. They’re just looking to make it through the day, make it through the week, maybe have a more positive mental attitude or more positive outlook. How do people direct themselves to that? Because I think we need to start with lawyers in particular. There’s some that are, that are super positive and energy and going at it.

There’s others that are just, you know, God, can I get it through today without, you know, without putting my head through a window? I mean, it’s like there, there’s that type of discrepancy between them. Yes, and that’s what really the work is, because in the blueprinting, we are sort of sorting through the stuff that’s not wanted, right?

Right. That’s all a part of that process, is helping them look at, again, energy flows where your attention goes. So notice what you’re noticing. What have you been noticing in the last moment? What have you been noticing in the last five minutes, right? Noticing, noticing, and coming back to. Is my attention on being, you know, worried or stressful, or is my attention more on what I want?

That’s why, you know, I worked in an ER for a while with people who were suicidal, homicidal. What was it? There wasn’t, the hope was gone. So, we begin with creating the hope maybe that has gotten lost along the way. So again, someone is listening to this, they’re saying, that’s all great and fine, but I, I want to start looking at how do I direct myself in a positive way?

What tips can you give them? So, I know, like, we can make a list of things we don’t want. I don’t want to bill 2, 500 hours a year. I don’t want to be micromanaged by my boss anymore. I don’t want to be yelled at by clients. I want to be treated nicely. Okay, so now we have a list of things we don’t want.

Maybe my direction is I want the opposite of those, or I want autonomy, I want control, I want freedom, so then, but actually taking action and making change is really the beast of it. People can think all they want. How do people start enacting change in a positive way? That’s where decision comes in, you know, the, the word decision, the root of it is to cut away from, okay.

So the first thing that we have got to do is make a decision that we want that change. You know, Steve, when I was, um, when I was getting my license, I was working in San Francisco. And I would get up and drive in the city at 4. 30 in the morning, work from 5 to 2 and then do my internships in the afternoon.

I had a below student loans. I had great benefits there. It was the one job pre licensed that you could make at least decent money, right? And one morning I’m driving at 4. 30. I have no, no feeling from my elbows to my fingertips. I had neck and, and carpal tunnel so bad. I had just no feelings that I said, okay, I had to make, usually there is a defining moment.

Where we have to make a decision and my decision was whatever it’s going to take, I’m going to do to change the situation. I was on a headphone taking 5 to 600 calls a day. Maybe it was working for managed care, maybe getting people to their benefits or not. And I did all this work to work with people.

So it starts with a decision, you know? Yeah. Hey everybody, check this out, you’ve just had a call with a client where they need help with something you don’t do. You’ve reached out to colleagues, you’ve searched the lawyer directories, and you simply tell them you don’t know anyone that can help. Overture changes all of that.

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It’s S V J at money, penny. com. And just mentioned my name in the subject line. Lawyers. There’s an easy way to boost your law practice partner with get visible, the digital marketing agency that makes you stand out, meet Sarah, an awesome lawyer, but a terrible marketer get visible, helped her build a powerful website and boost her online visibility.

Now she ranks high on Google gains clients through ads and engaging content. Tired of feeling insignificant, make it rain, visit get visible. com and stand out. And actually, if I, if you don’t mind me spending this for a second, it’s, it’s also What if we’re talking about business development for lawyers, which is kind of my jam That’s also how we get change in others.

So for example, if I’m, if you’re a lawyer and you’re meeting with a general counsel, general counsel is working with an existing firm. They’re not going to change just because the weather’s different today. You need to talk them and walk them through the things that have been going wrong, the things that they’re not getting that they should, the things that you need to get them to, to get into an emotional state where they’re at a point where they say, you know what?

I don’t want to, I don’t want this anymore. I want something new, something fresh, something, I want you, you’re the lawyer that I want to work with. And so we’re teaching this in a way to lawyers that think they need to go out and pitch and sell but really it’s about, it’s about asking questions, listening, understanding, empathizing and trying to uncover someone’s pain or fear.

Where they get to a point where they don’t want to continue keeping things the same. So I think there’s there’s some really good Interrelationship between ourselves and what we need to do for ourselves, but also how we interact with others to get change. Yes. Yes You know, one of my mentors says, the content of our life is the curriculum for our evolution.

Wow. You’ve got a lot of these. You’ve got quotes of the show all through the show. I mean, I don’t, that’s amazing. We need to do a show just on your quotes. I mean, that’s a show, that’s a six month out, Joan. That’s another show. I’m going to ask you to come back and do that. But there, say that one again.

That was fantastic. The content of our life is the curriculum for our evolution. Yeah. Wow. That’s heavy. If we’re open and willing to listen and to realize that, that some of these things that, that, and you know this, my goodness, you know, I know your story about the airplane accident, right? It’s like, these things, if we allow them and we take that feedback, they can really serve us.

You know, if someone’s sitting in a meeting and they’re realizing that, uh, something’s really not going right here, right? That’s information. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it’s just watching body language when you see someone kind of cross their arms or you see someone. You know, kind of, you know, say things to you that aren’t positive in a direction of this is all moving forward and you can read that and address it, right?

And actually have the gumption or the right language to address it in a, in a non confrontational way, you know, might be better for, for some people and then understand and learn from that so that you can either overcome it or maybe move it to a no, because ultimately it wasn’t a fit anyway. That’s okay.

But now we know versus we, we walk out of the meeting with just scratching our heads saying, geez, I sure hope they call me. You know, which is the way a lot of people leave meetings, which is very unfortunate. Yes. Yes. Yes. Totally. Dope. You know, this takes me to the concept of paradigms. Okay. And I remember in graduate school, the first time I really, you know, kind of listened to the word paradigm and I went, Ooh, apparently some paradigm shift.

And I realized, Whoa. That’s like, that’s like when I was in San Francisco and the big earthquake in 89, right? It’s like I, and I felt the earth below me. I was like, Whoa, you know, this is a real fear, right? So paradigm shifts, you know, there’s, there’s two ways paradigm shifts happen. One is through a bit like a big event.

Okay. So it could be, it could be positive. It could be, you just got married or you had a baby, right? But usually a big event will be, you got a divorce. You had an accident. You got fired, right? And, or the second way, and the second way, is that you get into repetition in terms of changing your thought processes.

Okay, that’s where coaching is. It’s a process of repetition until you have a new paradigm, because it’s a habit of thought, basically. And so, you know, paradigms show up as delay, distraction, DEFCON, which is a military term where people just like freeze, right? Um, or dissuasion, we dissuade ourselves from the next.

So it’s like in my work, it’s to be able to identify the paradigm, the habitual thought process that needs to shift, right? So you don’t have to face that major, major crises. Now, it doesn’t mean that every situation and circumstance in your life, you’re going to, you’re going to love, but when you do face them, you’re going to feel very differently in how you handle it.

Does that make, does that make sense? Yeah, it actually does. And I think everyone has paradigm shifts in their life. Maybe multiple times. And it’s what you do to learn from that or to execute on it once it happens. So, you know, you get fired from your job. It’s the worst thing that’s ever happened to you.

You’re, you’re in a slump. What then door opens for you? Well, now I’m able to go out on my own and really start a whole new business myself. Or now I’m able to go in house and I find it through networking a friend that can get me in with. This company where I end up being much happier if we have to look at it that way.

And I mean, my plane crash, you know, people have heard the story or not. I don’t know, but you know, for me, it was an absolute paradigm shift in. I only have one shot at this thing. I learned that that day and recovering from that, that you have one shot at this thing called life. And you’re either going to make the best of it every day and do for your family and do for your career and, and help make this place better than you found it, or you’re going to squander it.

And I think there’s a lot of people that are taking it for granted, you know, just, you know, blowing money, just doing things that aren’t, aren’t really leaving things back. So again, that was mine and, and, and, you know, working in the legal industry has been the greatest honor of my lifetime and I’m going to definitely leave it better than I found it.

I think I’ve already helped in that. But you have to, you have to look at, at where you, what you can get out of, whether it’s a positive thing or a disastrous thing, what you can get out of it, that’s going to, that’s going to move the needle. Yes, exactly. That’s why the content of our life is the curriculum for evolution, if we’ll be right.

So when people, when people go through the moment, that paradigm shift moment, and let’s say, it’s just a realization that, and for lawyers, it could be. You know, I just realized I have 10 bosses. I have the three that give me work and the seven clients that, you know, that give me, you know, grief every day or whatever.

And I’ve got to make a change, but I’m locked in, you know, that’s the thing. Like people feel locked into a situation because they have student debt. Like you had, right. They’ve got the law school debt. They’ve got, you know, three kids in the, you know, in home. I mean, I’ve got a guy right now that I’m talking to that absolutely needs me like air and he is struggling, you know, I’m not, I’m not the cheapest guy in the block.

I’m not the most expensive guy in the block, but you have to pay for services, right? If I want to hire a lawyer, there’s a fee associated. So, but he’s struggling with how he’s going to make that work. And so I’ll bend over backwards to try to figure it out with him. But ultimately, you know, That’s, how did you get out of a, that cycle?

Okay, so, you know, there’s a term of, that says, get out of what is. Get out, I’m sorry, get ahead of what is. Get ahead of what is. So that’s why the work I do is vision, very vision oriented. Because what vision does is you get out ahead of what is so, you know, there’s a story of a man that used to, he said, he’d get in the shower every day and, and he would just like, he would, his whole thing was like, he was having an argument in his head with this boss.

Right? And he all of a sudden he was like, he was doing this work and he was like, Oh my God, every morning I have this argument with. Also, what he did is he started to get out ahead of what was in the sense that he started say, okay. You know, how do I wanna be in the shower in my head? Do I wanna be fighting with him every day or do I wanna see he wasn’t a real skillful, we’ll say he’s unskillful the boss, right?

But it’s one or two things that this guy is good with, right? And how can I start to get out ahead of what is the unskillful part and go to the skillful to at least begin to shift the energy again to sh Now it’s not saying stay there. But while you’re there, what are you going to do to shift the energy so that you can get ahead of what is and start to have a vision for your life that is greater than what is right now, you know, there’s a proverb that says something like where there is no vision, there’s no hope, you know, so that’s why it’s so important to craft a new vision, because then when you notice your attention, Is on the problem, you can shift your energy to the vision of what you want for your future.

Well, and here’s, and here’s, but here’s an, I’m, I apologize for interrupting, but here’s, here’s an interesting thing too. I mean, one of the things that lawyers are, most lawyers are really, really good at doing is solving problems. Except their own, right? So, I mean, coaching is important and great and all that.

However, you know, use a little bit of your, of your skill sets of solving other people’s problems and legal problems and the creativity involved in language and, and arguing and all that, and put it on yourself and see if you can figure out, you know, where the situation you’re in is headed. If nothing changes.

And what you may need to envision, uh, would have to happen for it to change. And is it a tenable, is it a tenable outcome? And if it is great, you know, follow that vision. If it’s not, you have to look at all their alternatives. Exactly. So, so Steve, I’m the, I’m the queen of quotes, but I’m going to get quotes.

I’m giving you that title too. Queen of quotes. When you’re in the picture, you can’t see the frame. Okay. So, I mean, that’s for all of us, right? Yeah. Well, those coaches have coaches. I’ve got, yeah, I’ve got a bunch that I’m talking to on a regular basis. We can be really good, but we don’t have, again, when we’re in the picture, we can’t see the frame because it’s, we’re there, right?

So we need to have some distance from it with someone sort of shining a light that we don’t see. Yeah. And sometimes helping you bring out the path yourself, right? Like a good coach is going to try to get you to, again, like you said, fish for yourself. However, I know like for me, I do a combination of coaching and training because on one hand, I want to coach and let someone work through that.

But on the other hand, There’s a whole bunch of skills that need to be learned to be effective at something that I’m going to coach them on. They need that training too. So, you know, they don’t have the answer. So, you know, I think there’s, but, but in your situation where you’re looking to help someone kind of really break through, you know, having that, that outside perspective is, is critical.

Yeah. I have clients that’ll say to me, they’ll, they’ll start to see a paradigm that they have from the past that doesn’t serve them right. And so I said, there’s three magic words up until now, because our language is really important. Either keeping our paradigm stuck or changing. So you know, up until now, this happened up until now.

I always do this up until now, you’re breaking the chain. Of the constant thing that we, you know, we have certain things that there’s this thing called basic assumptions. Okay. And we all have like a major, one major basic assumption. It might be, you know, I don’t know, that’s a, that’s a, a freeze one, you know, I can’t write.

And with, these are things that we say to ourselves and we say out loud. And many times we don’t even, we don’t even hear ourselves. And so with a basic assumption, when we do it so often, we, we, we’re not even aware of it. So it’s like up until now, and I will stop someone in the conversation up until now, but you’re shifting that belief system.

That might’ve been true, but up until now, let’s shift it. And so what happens is over time, they begin to, they’ll say to me, Oh, I know, Joan, up until now, I would. Yeah. Right. It’s not. Yeah. That’s just a great, that’s a great outlook, especially for people that, you know, do get ahead of themselves about the future and they get ahead of themselves about their, you know, the worry about things that haven’t even happened yet, right.

Or the things that have happened in the past that they can’t get over really, really great stuff. Awesome. Awesome. So let’s, let’s transition to our game changing podcast. And you threw out a new one that I hadn’t heard that I’m, I’m intrigued to hear more about it. It’s called School of Greatness. Tell us about that.

By Lewis Howes. You know, what I love about that podcast is he is always bringing Individuals from many different, you know, aspects of life and all of them have overcome some major thing, right? And he interviews them in terms of their process of how they’ve overcome it. It’s a, it’s a great. He was someone who we need that inspiration.

I think we need, you know, we see that. Okay. We see more negative than we see positive, but I think we need more positive. So that’s, you know, every time you hear, hear someone overcoming cancer, overcoming. You know, any tragedy, a loss, I mean, and how they did it, and then maybe even excelled even further, like, far beyond their expectations, those are all, those are all things that we need to hear on a, on a fairly regular basis.

Because we hear enough of the other, right? Yeah, I mean, it’s all doom and gloom out there, so we’ve got to, we’ve got to pick up our… Our positivity somewhere. Hey, as we wrap up, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, we’ve got get visible and overture and money penny. Um, if you didn’t hear their, uh, their commercials earlier in the meeting, the thing, um, check them out.

They’re just fantastic companies helping lawyers to be their best selves and make more money and be more efficient. And if you’re interested in checking out my philosophy of business development called sales free selling, I’m teaching you not to sell, not to pitch, not to convince, but actually to go off and, and some of the things we talked about with you and I, Joan, which was, you know, asking, listening, empathy, walking a buyer through a buying decision in a, in a conversational way, it’s a much more Fun and intelligent way to build business.

You can go to my website at fretson. com slash sales dash free dash selling and pick up your e copy ebook version. Um, if people want to get in touch with you, Joan, they want to talk to you about coaching. They want to learn more about the relationship center for change. How do they get in touch with you?

Okay. So my email is Joan at RC and then the word change. com and my number is seven Oh seven. 769 1215. And we’ll put all that in the show notes. The queen of quotes, Joan, thank you so much. You now have a title on our show, uh, which we’re going to keep using over and over again until you get sick of it.

Um, but thank, just thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your quotes and your knowledge. I mean this for the lawyers listening, I hope that you all. I took something great away from today. I’ve got like, Oh, my usual page of notes here. I’ve got my remarkable two that I don’t get paid for promoting.

I’m sure you get the Joan. I mean, page of notes, things circled, highlighted. I mean, I’m really a very active listener, which I think you were saying is a good thing, right? Good thing. A really good thing. All right. Well, thanks again. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah. And hang out for a second.

Everybody, before we go, uh, I’d be remiss to say thank you for listening to the show. Again, really appreciate, uh, that you take the time, the 30 minutes twice a week to listen. If you didn’t know that that’s how often we’re on, that’s how often we’re on. Coming up on a hundred thousand downloads. Very exciting stuff.

Again, all for you helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled lawmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. And we will talk again very soon.

Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out Today’s show notes.