In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Joanne Black discuss:
- The challenges and misconceptions around asking for referrals
- How language and specificity shape successful client introductions
- The role of accountability, systems, and consistency in business development
- Building stronger client relationships through follow-up, gratitude, and personal touches
Key Takeaways:
- Asking vague questions like “if you know anybody” rarely works, because clients don’t know where to start, so the key is to guide them back to the original problem you solved for them, and then ask who else they know facing a similar situation.
- A referral isn’t just a name tossed over email—it works best when the referrer is given the right language, context, and a short, business-focused reason for the introduction so that the new contact immediately understands the value of meeting with you.
- When a referred contact goes silent or “ghosts,” the most effective strategy is to circle back to the person who made the introduction, ask for clarity, and if necessary, use a polite but direct subject line like “referrals on hold?” to spark closure or next steps.
- Referrals are sustained not just by doing great work but also by building ongoing trust and goodwill through systems of accountability, consistent follow-up, and thoughtful personal touches like handwritten thank-you notes that make clients eager to refer again.
“Asking for help is the strongest thing you can do.” — Joanne Black
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Episode References:
Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299
About Joanne Black: Joanne Black is America’s leading authority on referral selling. (She’s not bragging—her publisher gave her that moniker, and she’s taking it.) Some of Joanne’s views are contrarian and, in the established school of traditional business, considered heretical thinking. But for Joanne Black and her clients, the only smart approach to client acquisition is referral selling.
“Your clients can be your biggest competitive advantage,” she says. “They will be thrilled to refer you. Having your clients advocate for you is your strongest form of client acquisition and retention.”
She works with sales leaders and their teams to drive revenue with referrals. In particular, she works with attorneys who want and need to grow their practice, but don’t want to sell.
Connect with Joanne Black:
Website: https://www.nomorecoldcalling.com/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanneblackreferralsales/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and if you’re enjoying this be the lawyer, you have to check out the other be that lawyer Coach’s Corner with Steve Fretzin. This is an opportunity for me to share my best tips and practices, give you a little insight or information on how we do things here at be that lawyer, check it out, and I know you’ll enjoy it and tell your friends
Narrator [00:22]
you’re listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:42]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and welcome to the be that lawyer podcast. If you are a longtime listener, you need to make sure you’re following us. You have to make sure you’re liking us. You have to make sure you tell a friend or two, and if you’re new to the show, you’re going to be a fan. Because what we do every single week, twice a week is bring you the best guests. We bring you amazing people. And guess what? Here’s a big surprise. Today is no different. I’ve got Joanne Black waiting in the wings. How are you? My friend? Fabulous. Always Steve, awesome. Awesome, awesome. And we are going to have some great times today. Let’s jump in and get to it, because we want to give as much value in this 30 minutes as we can. And as you all know, if you’re listening to the show, we are big into our quote of the show. And this is one I absolutely love. It’s called, it’s not called, it’s not quality. It’s a quote. That’s what it’s called, but it is, if I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter. And that’s who is that? Blaze Pascal, yes, it was okay. And so
Joanne Black [01:39]
what it was attributed to a lot of other people, but he is the first one.
Steve Fretzin [01:44]
Mark Twain got a little movement on that, but that was that’s not right. Shame on you, Mark Twain for purging someone else’s idea. But welcome to the show and tell us why you love that quote so much.
Joanne Black [01:53]
It’s a challenge for all of us. We know, you know, we’re supposed to write these little tidbits of things that will get people’s attention. It’s the hardest thing to do, and that is loosely translated from the French, but that is the whole idea, and it’s hard for everyone. So that’s why I wanted it’s one of my favorite quotes, because I don’t know anybody who said, Oh yeah, I can do that in two minutes, yeah, for a minute or 60 seconds, right?
Steve Fretzin [02:20]
Yeah. I work with lawyers on a regular basis, helping them take their terrible, long winded, drawn out, detail oriented emails and say, how about if we just do a sentence or two, right? And let’s get it let’s have a conversation on a phone or zoom, not in an email where people can misread and misunderstand and take it the wrong way. So I think it’s really, you know, and again, I’m writing all the time to try to keep it tight and to try to think about words that are unnecessary so I can pull them out and make it tighter. And I think that’s what it’s all about. But it does. It takes time to do that, and fortunately, AI now is helping with that, right?
Joanne Black [02:53]
Yes, but we still have to be vigilant about that.
Steve Fretzin [02:57]
Yeah, no doubt about it. Hey everybody, you’re hanging out with me Steve Fretzin and my friend Joanne Black, and she is the founder of no more cold calling. And lawyers don’t cold call. Do they?
Joanne Black [03:07]
I don’t know. They don’t. They don’t. Some of them probably do.
Steve Fretzin [03:12]
They don’t. They don’t, and they shouldn’t. We want to teach them better ways. But welcome to the show again, and give us a little background on yourself and how you came to be and working with people to not cold call and get more referrals.
Joanne Black [03:23]
So my whole career has been in sales, and I never thought I’d be in sales, because as the shyest kid, you definitely an introvert. And so then I learned that that’s not what sales is about. It’s about asking good questions, getting answers, and then we have an opportunity to talk because we have the information. So once I learned that I was just way more comfortable, and I learned that after graduating from college, and then fast forward a bunch of years, I worked for two consulting and training firms, and I started my own company in 1996 The reason is that my colleagues sit with joy, and the economy is great to really start your own company. So okay, think that much about it, but it had nothing to do with referrals. Steve at all. What I thought I wanted to do was write in a business plan, a sales plan, because you couldn’t find it there. So I don’t believe in fate. I do believe in serendipity. And this management team at this company I was working with were doing a customer satisfaction survey of 50 of their best clients. And it was several rounds, and I asked this question on the last round, would you be willing to be a referral to this company? Yeah, yeah. And it was a seven point scale, seven high. My question comes back, 6.5 Yeah. So couldn’t wait till I got to the next management meeting, and I said, 50 of your best clients are saying they glad to refer you? Are you asking? Well, you can probably guess,
Steve Fretzin [04:56]
no, I wish we had sound effects. We could. Play crickets in the background.
Joanne Black [05:01]
Yeah, and it’s no today, so I said, okay, there has to be something here. And that’s how I started.
Steve Fretzin [05:09]
Yeah, in legal, it’s, I mean, it’s at a, sort of an epidemic proportion of lawyers who are terrified of asking for referrals. I call them quality introductions, because there’s a difference. We’ll talk about that later. And ultimately, the fear of asking for something that they shouldn’t have, or asking for something that is like going, you know, hey, I’m there. They’re already giving me a million dollars. What am I going to, you know, ask them for more like they’re already giving me this business like they there’s just a big misunderstanding. So why do people have this misconception about their clients and asking for things?
Joanne Black [05:46]
So it’s not just attorneys. About five years ago, a really seasoned sales guy, about 50 years old, somewhere around there, said, Joanne, I don’t know why. I’m just not comfortable asking. So I decided to call out the elephant in the room, and I asked a lot of questions. Asked about why? So it’s things like, I don’t want to feel like the used car salesman, fair enough. That’s the picture we get. Although, you know, when we’re doing good business, it’s nothing like the used car salesman. That’s not who good sales people are. And so that was a biggie for me. They said it feels uncomfortable. I’m asking for help, and that feels we Oh my goodness. What if they say no, it would be devastating. And then one of them said it felt desperate. Didn’t know what that meant, so I asked, and he said, Well, if I have to ask, it must be that I’m not very successful, because I’m really successful, I wouldn’t have to Yes, kind of embarrassing, right? And then sometimes they say it’s asking for a favor. Now that drives me up a tree, Steve, because it’s not a favor. A favor is the kind of thing where I do something for you. You do something for me. This is not it. And asking for help is the strongest thing you can do. You know, talk business people, whether you’re attorneys, sales people, whatever you company, you’re working for, or firm, ask for help, and people are glad to give it.
Steve Fretzin [07:15]
Joanne, isn’t the argument going to be that that’s a sign of weakness, like I’m weak and I’m asking for help because I’m weak,
Joanne Black [07:21]
absolutely, and I learned long ago that wasn’t accurate. So the last consulting firm I work with there was this top salesperson in New York, and he formed every client, he formed the biggest team, and they were clamoring on his team because he was so successful. And you know, when we think about it, and we’ve grown our book of business. Well, it’s because we’ve had those referrals. It’s because we’ve had great clients, and we need to change our mindset that they are glad to help. They just don’t know what to do.
Steve Fretzin [07:54]
Yeah, I mean, the promised land for any attorney is the phone doesn’t stop ringing and it’s business every time, and some rely on that and it happens, and others rely on that, and then it doesn’t happen, and then they don’t know what to do. All right, so you know, when I work with lawyers, helping them put together a business plan, one of the very first things I do, and I’m sure you do, is try to identify, like, where’s the business coming from, and where should they be getting business, and are they leveraging low hanging fruit? And I think you and I both know, you know that’s going to be, you know, clients, right? If we can get business from clients, easier than going out and networking and meeting strangers and having to develop, you know, something from nothing, absolutely.
Joanne Black [08:37]
And you know, in every meeting on that business meeting, meeting with colleagues, people in business, I asked this question, have you asked every single one of your clients for a referral? And the answer is always no, always no, yeah. So it’s not just attorneys, everybody Yeah, because of this angst we feel in asking, because they just don’t know how to ask.
Steve Fretzin [08:58]
All right, so let’s get down to the meat and potatoes, because it’s sitting right in front of us, and we both want to address it, and that is, why are they afraid to ask and why? Like, what’s the hesitancy, what’s the gap between not doing it or doing it? And I have an answer, but I want to hear yours.
Joanne Black [09:15]
Well, it’s embarrassing, okay? Telling them
Steve Fretzin [09:18]
feeling the idea that it’s embarrassed, that there’s embarrassing.
Joanne Black [09:22]
Okay, it’s back to asking for help. That means I’m weak. It’s all of those things. And so it’s the head game. So what we tend to do is say, either don’t ask at all, or they stumble. And they say, Well, if you know anybody, you know anybody, you could refer me to, please let them know. I mean, it’s kind of that, what I call begging and bleeding,
Steve Fretzin [09:41]
yeah, but I guess where I was going with this Joanne was not about more about their mindset. It was more like, All right, so what are we teaching them? What are we doing to help those people get over the hill to the other side of where business is? Right?
Joanne Black [09:58]
So it’s really learning and. Have to ask the language, yeah, which I’m glad to share. But there’s things that come before them. I’m gonna tell you the language. Okay? I’m gonna tell you absolutely what not to say. So, what not to say first? So I hear all the time, well, if you know anyone who and then fill in the blank, right, whatever they say, well, here’s my point of view. And you know, I have definite ones about this.
Steve Fretzin [10:21]
You have a point of view,
Joanne Black [10:24]
several but that I don’t know a framed anybody. And think about, if you say anybody, they don’t know where to start, yeah, it’s a big number, anybody? Yeah, they say, No, I don’t know anybody. But specificity what matters and you need to paint a picture of the person you’re looking for, starting with the problem. And so think of it this way, when a client came to you for your advice, your help, what was the problem? What were they facing? I mean, it’s obviously going to be different for each of you, depending on the area of law you practice, but there’s always a problem. It’s not a problem. None of us would be in business. So you have to start there with remember when we started working together? You and you need to take them, because they just remember now that you’ve done things so well, and so taking them back to where they started and to where they are now, and what their problem was. So you could say to them, remember when we started, you had this problem, and now here we are. So you need to make that case the from to problem solution. That’s about all you need to say. And then you’re going to ask, you know, based on that, and the time we’ve worked together, who? That’s the big word. Who you can’t say no to a W word, by the way, who, what, where, right? Who are one or two people you know I should meet. Or who are one or two people you know you can introduce me to. Introduction is an operative word, and
Steve Fretzin [11:59]
is it bringing back the situation, though, that has that have problems similar to yours, or that have issues similar to yours. So it’s the situation, and that’s helping to get their mind to come up with that name.
Joanne Black [12:12]
Well, absolutely you need to get the situation and also the solution. So we’re reminding them of when they started. You know, they came just not knowing what to do. They had this huge problem, and this was the situation. So it could be something very similar to that, but it’s really important to bring them back to where they are now, yeah, which is totally different than the situation.
Steve Fretzin [12:34]
Yeah, I’ve got a client who does. I just met him for lunch at the most amazing pizza place in Chicago called barnabys. If you’re in Chicago, you know what I’m talking about, in the north shore. And he’s doing, let’s say, 3 million. And, you know, he wants to introduce me, you know, like, I asked him about introductions, and he’s like, yeah, there’s a guy that you know that does about a half a million. I’m like, oh, that’s kind of where you were. And, you know, so, you know, the situation is, he wants to make equity. How do we move that needle? How do we get that person you know, similar to you, you’re now where you want to be, this person’s where you used to be. And is there a story there that you can tell to make that introduction pop?
Joanne Black [13:13]
Absolutely, that’s absolutely the way to do it. Steve, yeah, yeah. Because otherwise they don’t have any context. They don’t know how to introduce you. So again, we have to help that person introduce us in the way we want to be introduced to, the kind of person that we want to work with.
Steve Fretzin [13:33]
I want to just mention that this is not just for clients. This is a networking one on one. Everybody. You need to help people help you, and you’re not doing that. What you’re doing is you’re saying, Hey, if you think of somebody for me, or if you think about somebody that needs what I do, let me know. And then no one does. And you wonder why your phone’s not ringing when you meet with people for lunch or coffee or zoom, you need to give them the language the situation. You need to walk them through who and what the situation and come up with names like, there’s a lot of pieces to this, right?
Joanne Black [14:06]
Or a lot of pieces. It’s, I say, all the time. It’s simple. It’s not easy, because we’re everybody will be doing this, and they’re not so referrals then become the biggest competitive differentiator anybody has. Yeah, right? Because it’s not happening. So those of us who are asking the right way, and to your point, Steve, are creating the picture and discussing with this person you’d like to meet, and confirming that’s key, and then asking for the introduction. Now here’s I want to say something about the introduction. I hope so. So before you you’re having a conversation and say, This person says, Oh yeah, I’d be glad to introduce you to sue in two situations. It’s absolutely perfect. Okay, then I would say, What’s the best way for you to introduce me? Because. It could be that he’s meeting with Sue next week. Could be having dinner with Sue tomorrow. It could be he says, you know, she works best by email, so that in a minute, but you need to confirm the best way, yeah, and to confirm it’s the introduction, and also to give the personal language to so it’s not just I want to meet Steve. He’s a great guy, and he works for lawyers. That wants to be the business reason. Again, the short blurb about why so email, my belief is that always has been. I’m modifying it a bit that you’d never, ever, ever ask for an introduction through email, because you don’t have the opportunity of the conversation you just talked about. However, if Steve, you say, Well, the best way is, you know, she’s best with email. I’ll tell you this, if you read I’m just saying, Steve, you wouldn’t do this, but you read it to Steve, then to send the email. You don’t know what Steve’s going to sign, yeah, so it’s up to us to write a short, two or three sentence email to send to sue and said, I messed it with Steve, and I know that you need to talk to him, or I know you’ll get a great value from the conversation, whatever it needs to be your personality, and then you can have two to three lines in the business reason for the meeting. So I’m going to refer Steve, Steve, because you’re a good guy and you’re a nice guy, and we know each other, yeah, but that’s not why The reason is going to take a meeting. We’ll take a meeting because there’s a business reason, and that’s what we need to put that’s the short story, right? That’s the hardest to write, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [16:44]
Or get them to say the story, like, get them to repeat like, you know, what situation were you in before? Where are you now? And what’s the case to be made to your friend that meeting with me is a good idea, and get them to repeat it back, something to illustrate that they understand how an introduction is going to happen or why it may not happen, because the fact that I’m a nice guy isn’t necessarily going to get someone over the hump to meet with me, right? They’re busy. They need that to your point, a business case.
Steve Fretzin [17:21]
Hey, pi attorneys, if you’re serious about scaling your firm, there’s one event you can’t afford to miss. Pim con 2025 happening October 5 through the eighth at the Phoenician resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. Pimcon isn’t your average legal conference. It’s an experience. Learn how to take your firm from good to go with some of the biggest trailblazers in the PI space, including yours truly, as we share our elite marketing and brand building strategies. Tickets on sale [email protected] that’s p i m, c o n.org, or just hit the link in the show notes. Your climb to the top starts at pimcon 2025 let’s go from good to go. It. Hey, be that lawyer friends, if you’re looking for smarter ways to grow your law practice and want to stay ahead of the curve in legal, tech, business and strategy, then it’s time to check out legal verse media. The go to hub for lawyers who want more. This international platform connects you with global thought leaders through articles, podcasts, webinars and interactive forums that are shaping the future of law, explore everything with a free 14 day trial, including early access to tools peer discussions and a chance to build your brand as a thought leader. Don’t wait. Visit legalverse media.com and register for membership today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. I want to make one other point. Joanne, the worst thing that people are doing, and it’s happening all over the place, and it drives me nuts, is somebody says they’re going to make an introduction for me, and I’m thrilled about it, and they say I’ll just shoot, you know, I’ll just make an email connection for you too, and let you take it from there. So now this person who never wanted to meet with me doesn’t know me from Adam, doesn’t get the story that you’re talking about. They just see Steve, Meet John. John meet Steve. You two should talk. Steve’s a great coach. And then they leave it in our hands. This guy, John is running for the hills, doesn’t want to meet with me, that’s for sure, right? I’m scary, right? I’m a coach, I’m scary, and I’m now chasing after this person who doesn’t want to meet with me. So it’s like, the way I see it, like there could be a three way winner situation, or there could be a three way loser situation, and because I didn’t coach my friend or my client properly, it’s going to be or could be a three way. Loser. So I lose because I’m chasing after somebody. My client loses because I’m not happy with my client’s effort. And if I ever end up talking with John, he may be not happy because he blew me off three times and I was dealing with someone who didn’t start off on the right foot. Versus, if it’s all done to your point, Joanne, the way it should. How much better could this intro be, and how much more powerful could it be for it to actually happen?
Joanne Black [20:24]
Absolutely So again, I’ll say, you know, I’m going to refer you because you’re a nice guy and I trust you, that’s not the reason a person is going to take the meeting. So that’s why we need to be very specific, and in that email, I always insist, recommend that you are copied on that email, so you have a way to follow up. Yeah, yeah. And this is not bad behavior. It’s great behavior, because, you know how many emails we get in a day, and so you’re copied, and you can see that other person’s response, that the person hasn’t responded, then you can reach out to your client and, you know, have a little chat about why, or whatever. Yeah, that’s the way to do it, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [21:04]
And I know that, you know, we talk about referrals, and I brought up earlier some different language, and we can say tomato, tomato, but I just want to give my two cents and then hear your thoughts on it. And I know the word referral is a lovely word, and when a referral comes in, we’re all excited and happy. My concern is that if it wasn’t to our point, we just had it. We don’t, if it wasn’t set up properly, if it wasn’t teed up beautifully for me or for someone else, that it could go there could be a chasing game there. It could go dark real fast, and it could waste our time. So I’m always using the language quality introduction with the idea of what you and I are saying is that if we can set someone else up where we can help, you know, help them to come across the finish line and make the proper introduction, that everybody can win. And do you see it similar to that? Or is it just, am I just moving around words?
Joanne Black [21:53]
No, that’s the way to do it. I mean, you can’t be in the dark, right? You know, if there’s not an explanation, if the person they’re writing to doesn’t know that. I mean, there’s no reason for meeting, yeah, a reason.
Steve Fretzin [22:04]
Let me ask you this. What do you Joanne, what do you do when someone makes a great introduction, like I’ve agreed to meet John, you introduced me and John, I’ve agreed to meet John, and you make an email introduction, and we’re all on board, and then John is ghosting me, even after he said he would meet with me. How should I deal with that, as far as a follow up, to get the meeting with John? Because he did agree to it, but when it came down to it, his organizational skills, time management skills, he’s busy with a trial. Something came up. I don’t know, right? I’m in the dark about it, but I also don’t want to be a pest. So there’s a fine line that lawyers are walking with follow up. What’s your key to a good follow up?
Joanne Black [22:43]
Well, first, go back to the person who introduced you. Okay, you know, John hasn’t responded. You know, what can you help me with? What’s going on? It could be anything, yeah. I mean, if it’s summer, it could be on vacation. Could be somebody sick. It could be, you know, oh, the kids are going back to school. I mean, it could be anything, and hopefully not something that’s tragic, but we need to know that, right? And so if your contact comes back and says, Oh, T I don’t know why he did that. He’s always very responsible. Well, then you could ask your client to figure it out, or talk to John and say, Why haven’t you talked to Steve. Or sometimes, what I’ll do is I will write a short email with this subject line. It happens rarely. I will put referrals on hold question mark, and that’s in the subject line, yes. And then I’ll write like, a couple sentences. And typically it’s something like, Oh, we’ve been so busy, or, Yes, I want to do it, but not now, or, you know, whatever it is, at least you have closure.
Steve Fretzin [23:46]
So you’re sending an email to kind of get a response or reaction to know where you are, because it’s the not knowing that hurts, right?
Joanne Black [23:55]
Yeah. And if somebody likes to deliver bad news, right? And that’s the fact. And so maybe the person stalling, maybe he doesn’t really want to talk to you, yeah,
Steve Fretzin [24:05]
don’t know. I mean, that’s similar to something I teach, which is, I’ve got a name. I’m pretty sure I stole this from somebody down the road, but it was, I call it okay, not okay. And like, I will take a not okay position with the understanding that a good person will come and rescue me. So to say, you know, hey, I’ve been, you know, emailing you. I don’t know if you’re getting them or not, but I, you know, I apologize if there’s anything that I’ve said or did that has, you know, stopped you from, you know, progressing this forward to take a meeting. If so, I apologize. I really hope that’s not the case. Now, I probably didn’t do much wrong or anything wrong, but if somebody doesn’t respond to that and say, no, no, Steve, that’s not you. I’ve been in a trial. I definitely want to meet with you. Here’s a date and time that works, and now we’ve progressed it forward, or they don’t respond, in which case, what am I learning? Maybe not a great person, or maybe not someone that I want to meet or do business with, because they’re blowing me off multiple times, even after some language. Where I’ve taken some ownership of them, not following up like I did something. And, you know, we could call it a technique, but we could also call it, you know, a way to get to the truth, which is half the battle.
Joanne Black [25:11]
Well, I always say, I always like a yes, but I’d rather have a no than a maybe, yeah, yeah. Really good for ghosting.
Steve Fretzin [25:19]
So let’s dive in for just this will be kind of our last little segment. If you had to say, you know, there was one or two tips that we haven’t covered today that helps people really get results with referral marketing, referral asking, getting introductions from clients. What would you say are the one or two other tips that haven’t been shared yet?
Joanne Black [25:40]
Well, that’s tough. There are a few things you can do, okay, but as I say, it’s simple. It’s not easy. However, one of the things I recommend is, if you haven’t read atomic habits, okay by Jinger, and you don’t read that book once you read it in phases. But this quote stuck with me when I read it, and I’m going to look at my screen so I say it properly. Ultimately, it’s your commitment to the process that will determine your progress. You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fail to the level of your systems. And referral selling is the system. So you need to have a strategy metric. So that’s the accountability, because if you’re not accountable, not going to happen. It is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced and coached, and there needs to be, again, that accountability and reinforcement. So again, it’s simple, it’s not easy, and it’s our biggest competitive differentiator, anything.
Steve Fretzin [26:45]
Yeah, I was going to add to that something that lawyers need to think more about. And we could probably go down a rabbit hole for 10 minutes just on this topic, is if I’m doing if I’m a lawyer and I’m servicing a client, they have a matter, I take care of it. They have a problem, I take care of it, and we have that relationship. It’s transactional. Makes referral asking very difficult. If I’ve gone above and beyond, I’ve become their friend, I’ve become their counselor. I’ve given them I helped them hire a new assistant. GC, I helped find a wedding planner for the daughter that’s getting married for that GC, I’ve stepped up and gone so above and beyond expectation of just the work that I’ve developed that type of life with my clients, what does that do to the referral? Asking momentum? Well, it’s
Joanne Black [27:31]
going to accelerate. It absolutely, extremely. I would also say, if we do an exceptional job with this client, we shouldn’t need anything beyond that, yeah,
Steve Fretzin [27:41]
but I get that, and I think exceptional work and fair pricing is sort of, I want to say that’s now maybe more of the baseline, okay, I think you need to have those expectations set and met, and then, like, the thing lawyers aren’t thinking of is like, what else can I or should I be doing? Is that building the social relationship? Is that sending thank you letters? Is that finding something interesting about, you know, their kid loves guitar, and I found a really cool guitar store in their neighborhood that just opened. I sent them a little piece about like, anything we can do to kind of continue to develop that relationship. I think a, you keep a client longer, and B, I think it greases the gears to get referrals in a much more fluid way.
Joanne Black [28:22]
Yeah, and I totally agree with you that thank you notes. I just, you know, referred people. I’ve never heard from them. I’ve heard from my client. Do you think I’d ever refer that person again? No, so handwritten. I don’t care how lousy your handwriting is on your firm stationary. Thank you note, whatever you write a thank you note, it could be handwritten, please, handwritten envelope with a real stamp.
Steve Fretzin [28:48]
Yeah, that’s such a nice that’s such a underutilized tool these days, right? I mean not happening now.
Joanne Black [28:54]
You set yourself apart by just doing that. So for all my clients, that is required,
Steve Fretzin [29:02]
listen, we have to wrap up. This will be 30 seconds. It’s failing forward. Give me an example of a fail forward that you had in your career.
Joanne Black [29:10]
I was fired, and I know the reason why it was devastating that it never happened to me. That was the impetus to start my business, because that was in 1996 Yeah. And then when my colleagues came said, you should start your own business. So that’s how it happens.
Steve Fretzin [29:25]
Sometimes the things that are hardest is the pills that are hardest to swallow end up doing the most, having the most benefit in our lives. I mean, I think we have to look at every time we get knocked down is an opportunity to recover. I think that’s really a great theme in general, for anybody and everybody. Hey, we have to wrap up. Let’s, of course, thank our wonderful sponsors. We’ve got legal verse, If you want to check out all types of great content, internationally focused, business development, marketing, you name it, anything business legal related, we’ve got pimcon coming up in October. It’s a great personal injury event. You’re going to want to check that out, pimcon.org and, of course, law her podcast. Sonia Palmer, crushing it every single week. People want to get in touch with you, Joanne, they want to talk to the referral Master. How do they reach you?
Joanne Black [30:08]
So two ways. First, please connect with me on LinkedIn and say you’ve listened to this podcast and click the bell on my profile. You’ll get notified of my post. The second is my email is Joanne, J, O, A, N, N, E, at, no more cold calling.com
Steve Fretzin [30:23]
Yes, awesome, and that’ll all be in the show notes for everybody. Joanne, thank you so much. I you know, I’m just so happy that we had a chance to meet talk. I hear your name pushed around provisors all the time and in the networks that you’re in, and really, really amazing. So thank you for coming on the show sharing your wisdom.
Joanne Black [30:40]
It’s a pleasure and a treat. Thanks, Steve, awesome, awesome.
Steve Fretzin [30:43]
And thank you everybody for hanging out with Joanne and I for the last 30 minutes. If you didn’t get three to seven, I’m just ballparking takeaways from today. You weren’t paying attention. Go back and listen again. Take notes, lots and lots of important things, things that can make you so much more money than a lot of other things you could be doing for business. I mean, getting referrals from clients is the key to not wasting time and getting to the root of where the business is, so take it seriously and get on it. Obviously, if anybody has any other questions, you can reach me at [email protected] thanks, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [31:21]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes.