Joe Brocato: Happiness and Authentic Relationships

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Joe Brocato discuss:

  • Pursuing your passions, belief in yourself, and having a determination to succeed.
  • Living authentically with balance in your work and passions.
  • Conveying confidence.
  • The three pillars of relationships.

Key Takeaways:

  • If you want to have a great book of business, you need to be a great lawyer first.
  • Be who you are and have confidence in your ability and your desire to help your clients.
  • You can be nice and be friends without needing to make a networking connection with everyone. Make a friend, but don’t feel obligated to sit with someone for longer than you want.
  • Bring your authentic self into relationships. When you are that way, you are also able to set authentic goals – which makes you more likely to achieve it, and more likely to enjoy the process.

“If you come into the relationship confident and upbeat, in a sincere way, because you truly are authentically happy, I think it really helps. It helps in your business development efforts.” —  Joe Brocato

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Hit it Off: 21 Rules for Mastering the Art and Science of Relationships In Life and Business –

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Joe Brocato: You know, you have to have the right mindset. I call it mind reset, thinking like a Rainmaker, being passionate, committed, and being confident. Like Thoreau said,

[00:00:13] Narrator: you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:35] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. Welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your host. And I hope that you’re having a wonderful day. If you haven’t heard the show before, go back and listen to some episodes. We’ve got some doozies from top rainmakers like we have today. And Joe, Hey, Hey, Joe, how’s it going? I caught him right as he was taking a drink.

[00:00:51] Joe Brocato: Steven, you always have impeccable timing. Good to see you. Yes.

[00:00:54] Steve Fretzin: Good to see you too. We’ve got experts in marketing, in sales, in business development, in branding, in wealth and health and wellness and wealth and health. I don’t know what’s going on with me today. I think I got up too early, but whatever the case is, we’ve got a show for you.

[00:01:09] Steve Fretzin: We’ve got content that’s going to really help you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. And I am so, so happy to have my friend Joe on the show today. We’re going to have some laughs. We’re going to learn a lot. Joe and I, how long have we known each other, buddy? You know, it’s got to

[00:01:25] Joe Brocato: be 20 years or so.

[00:01:28] Joe Brocato: Yeah. We go

[00:01:29] Steve Fretzin: back. Yeah. It’s been a long time and you’ve been just amazing. We used to share a similar situation at Petarino’s in the city back when it was a lettuce restaurant and I remember, uh, you know, having my own booth there for years and I thought I was the bee’s knees and I walk over to your booth and you had, like, sliced habanero, like, peppers and, like, cucumbers for the water and lemons and I was like, who is this guy?

[00:01:53] Steve Fretzin: Jesus Christ.

[00:01:54] Joe Brocato: Well, I came very close to having my own menu item, and for some reason it just never happens, so.

[00:02:00] Steve Fretzin: Bricado sandwich? Was it a bricado sandwich? Say that again? Was it gonna be a bricado sandwich?

[00:02:06] Joe Brocato: You know what, that just doesn’t sound right, so I probably would have named it something else. Bacon, avocado,

[00:02:11] Steve Fretzin: tomato, bricado.

[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: Well,

[00:02:13] Joe Brocato: that works, yeah. Alright. We’re gonna go back, it’s under new ownership. So you’re going to go back and we’re going to ask for that

[00:02:20] Steve Fretzin: to happen. I may need to change, uh, professions. I think I might just be better at naming people’s names and menu items, right? I think there’s restaurants that do that. I could be, that could be my thing.

[00:02:30] Steve Fretzin: And

[00:02:30] Joe Brocato: then I could be the taste tester and then it’ll be a great relationship. That’s what we’re here for, right? Yep. Yep.

[00:02:35] Steve Fretzin: I think we’ve got this worked out. Um, and I’ll introduce Joe in a little more detail in a minute, but you know, we love to start the show with the quote of the show and Joe, so kind to send me a wonderful Henry David Thoreau quote, go confidently in the direction of your dreams.

[00:02:51] Steve Fretzin: So talk about that. Why is that such an impactful quote for you, Joe?

[00:02:56] Joe Brocato: Well, it really goes back to my childhood when I would do my homework in grammar school. I had a little desk in our basement and on the wall, I had several posters. And one of which was this quote, and it was a picture of a beautiful jet airplane and it was in the sky above the clouds.

[00:03:15] Joe Brocato: And it had the quote, go confidently in the direction of your dreams. So that always stuck with me. And quite interestingly, this is the, that was the first sentence really of two sentence quote that Thoreau had. And the second sentence was, uh, live the life you’ve imagined. And so it always reminded me as I grew up and got into business, that.

[00:03:36] Joe Brocato: You know, when we pursue our passions, when we pursue our dreams, it really does test our self confidence. And so we have to believe in ourselves. We have to determine to succeed and really look for that inner strength. So I’ve always tried to remember that over the years.

[00:03:53] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think that’s terrific. And I think we all have.

[00:03:56] Steve Fretzin: Dreams and we don’t realize that we need to go ahead. We have to go after them because we only have one shot at this thing. I have a very close friend that called me the other day with some, some tough news about, you know, some, something going on with his brain. I’m not going to get into detail, but you know, and I was in a plane crash.

[00:04:12] Steve Fretzin: I mean, back in my twenties, I mean, you just never know. It could just be, you know, just driving along and getting, getting hit by someone who’s texting at the time. So, You know, you, you only have one shot, so go after it, absolutely go after it. And then, and you won’t have any regrets. I think that’s a big thing is living with regret because you didn’t take, you know, and I’m not saying take crazy risks.

[00:04:30] Steve Fretzin: I’m saying, you know, think through what you want and how you’re going to do it and bring in the right people. And maybe an excellent, by the way, segue into our main like topic today, but how do you bring people into your life that can help you with your dreams and to achieve your goals and your dreams and things like that?

[00:04:46] Steve Fretzin: And before we get into all that, Joe, you’re an author, you’re a rainmaker, you’re a senior partner with your, with your name partner at your firm. And do us a solid and give us a little bit of a background on how you came to be and doing all that you do in the legal space.

[00:05:01] Joe Brocato: Well, again, I just want to thank you for having me and for all the years we’ve known each other, I’ve watched your career and the great business that you’ve built.

[00:05:09] Joe Brocato: And I think it’s so important to have a platform for people to learn about business development. So thank you for the service in that regard. I’m local Chicago guy, went to school here. And, uh, you know, started practice in 1992 doing, uh, transactional law. So wasn’t really a big fan of going into the courtroom.

[00:05:32] Joe Brocato: I’m a deal guy. I like to get deals done and, you know, really worked my way through the system as an associate. I worked really hard, I think, to try to become the best lawyer that I could. A mentor very early on told me that, you know, if you want to be a business developer, you want to have a great material book of business, first thing you do is try to become a great lawyer.

[00:05:54] Joe Brocato: And so I’ve always tried to continue to learn over the years. I’ve been doing this a long time now. And uh, in March of 14, I joined a new firm, became an equity partner with Gazzetti del Judas. Uh, America’s Sparkers and Mercado, it’s quite a mouthful. We refer to ourselves as GDFB internally, uh, just to save some typing, but so it’s ahead of our transactional practice.

[00:06:18] Joe Brocato: So we have a great corporate commercial real estate, state planning, business succession, IP, healthcare regulatory practice, in addition to just a fantastic litigation practice. So very honored to do what I do and to have the clients that I have. Uh, very proud to, uh, to be here today and to share whatever thoughts I have.

[00:06:37] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And you’ve got quite a lot of thoughts because we’ve talked at length about relationships and networking and all that. Talk to me though, if, was there any moment in your career, cause you know, developing business isn’t easy, developing relationships and building a solid book. Isn’t easy. Were there, was there a particular like be that, be that lawyer tipping point or some moment where things clicked for you, where they maybe hadn’t

[00:06:59] Joe Brocato: before?

[00:07:01] Joe Brocato: That’s a good question. I’m sure with everyone, there are many moments in your life where you just wake up, uh, you learn something. And thinking back early on in my career as an attorney, probably f. Three or four years into the practice, I was working my tail off. I was doing well financially, but I started to realize that I wasn’t as happy as I thought I’d be.

[00:07:33] Joe Brocato: On one hand, I was doing really well business wise, on the other hand, my happiness level appeared to be sinking. So I remember sitting down with a good friend of mine at PTOs, by the way, now, oh, there you go. In my booth. And I was seated on the right side of the booth. You know, I always like to have the, uh, the seat that faces the wall, so don’t ask me why.

[00:07:55] Joe Brocato: But, uh, in any event, so we chatted and as it turned out, I, you know, through, through our discussions, I realized that I was ignoring a big part of who I was as a human being. And that was my music side. I started playing drums when I was five years old, started playing guitar in high school. I was a semi professional musician for many years, my young adulthood and stopped playing live soon after I started practicing and wasn’t listening to music as much.

[00:08:26] Joe Brocato: It wasn’t going to concerts. I pretty much ignored that side of who I was. So I just determined to make a shift and to really bring music back into my life and started working with some bands to manage them. Some friends that I had and started to work on getting more clients in the music space and the entertainment business and, uh, started going to more concerts.

[00:08:48] Joe Brocato: So as I realized that I was ignoring a big part of who I was, I became a little bit more authentic in how I was living my life. So I had that for the first time in my career at that point, I had a balance between. Work and something that really, truly was a passion of mine from early childhood. And it seemed like from that point on, I had my head on straight.

[00:09:12] Joe Brocato: I had the right mindset to be able to go out confidently and pursue a dream that I had to really represent the very best legal clients. I could build up my own book of business. Yeah. Perform at the highest level possible. And I think I’ve done that. And so I still go to a lot of concerts and I’m always looking to find people who like hard rock because, uh, as I get older, I seems like I’m the only guy in the, in the audience at an Iron Maiden concert and so that was a real important part of my life and,

[00:09:49] Joe Brocato: uh, I don’t think I’ll

[00:09:50] Steve Fretzin: ever forget it. Okay. All right. So question for you, Metallica or Rush? You can only pick one. and

[00:09:55] Joe Brocato: Well, listen, it’s like picking your best child. I gotta go with Rush. We’ve talked about this. Yeah. I’m quite fond of the band. I was… Deeply saddened when my hero, Neil Peart, the drummer, passed away.

[00:10:09] Joe Brocato: Yeah. And so I, uh, I love the band, but that said, love Metallica. Hope to see their, uh, their current tour, uh, that they’re starting soon. And, uh, so, uh, what about you? What would you say? Rush or Metallica? Yeah, I’m all about the

[00:10:22] Steve Fretzin: Rush. I mean, yeah, since I was a, since I was in my, in my early twenties, that’s been, that’s been the band.

[00:10:27] Steve Fretzin: Do you ever meet that? It’s really been long. So. That that’s, well, top of the list, I think. You like Rush, everything else falls into place. You ever meet Hillard Sterling? You know, Hillard? No. Oh, you gotta meet Hillard. All right, I’ll make that introduction. See, I’m already networking here, right? He was on my show not so long ago, but he, I think he either played in a tribute band or whatever.

[00:10:46] Steve Fretzin: He’s a, I mean, he’s insane for Rush. So you guys would hit it off well. Um, so let’s, let’s get into the, into the weeds on our main topic today. And what I want to discuss is You know, one of relationships and you’ve been like, Mr, you know, relationship with me and with a lot of other people for so long and you know, you’ve written, you think you, you’ve got a book on happiness.

[00:11:08] Steve Fretzin: You’re, I think you’re, you’re putting another book together on relationships and why do lawyers and we’ll just pick on that group. But why do they struggle with creating and developing and sustaining relationships in their lives and in business in particular?

[00:11:25] Joe Brocato: Great question. You ask a lot of great questions.

[00:11:28] Joe Brocato: I

[00:11:28] Steve Fretzin: don’t stop. I don’t

[00:11:28] Joe Brocato: know if my answers are great, but I’ll try it. Well, I can only speak from my experience. I don’t think I can speak for everybody. Um, but I know it’s a lot to juggle, you know, especially when you’re starting out, you, you come out of law school and they don’t really teach you how to go out and develop business in law school.

[00:11:47] Joe Brocato: And frankly, once you start practicing, you realize there’s just so much to learn about actually being a lawyer. So you’re, you’ve got that going. And then if you decide to try to get your own clients and It really take care of those clients. It’s a lot. And so in my case, early on, I didn’t really have a game plan.

[00:12:08] Joe Brocato: And I, you know, knew that relationships were important, but I didn’t really appreciate how much you had to really, um, focus on the dynamic, the interpersonal dynamic in a relationship to really sustain it, make it the best relationship possible. I had a lot of trial and error. I had a lot of experiences early on that I learned from and, um, over the years, what I have done is I’ve developed my own approach.

[00:12:35] Joe Brocato: I call it crux rainmaking and I have a book about this, which is in the can. Hopefully we will publish it someday, but it’s really a kind of three prong approach to developing businesses. This literally just came through sheer experience. You know, you have to have the right mindset. I call it mind reset, thinking like a rainmaker.

[00:12:53] Joe Brocato: Being passionate, committed, and being confident, like Thoreau said. And then to have really a method of go out and generating strategic needs that can bring in the business, and then really understanding how to develop what I call a unique business relationship at UBR. And these are relationships that are difficult, if not impossible, to replace.

[00:13:13] Joe Brocato: And what that really comes down to, and that’s really the essence of my newest book, which will hit stores May 1st of this year. Hit it off 21 rules for mastering the art and science of relationships in life and business. It’s really about establishing that emotional connection with people. And that’s something that I really learned.

[00:13:31] Joe Brocato: I looked at my very best relationships and I asked, why are they my best relationships? And it turned out, I just recognized that there was a, we transcended mere friendship. Into a different realm of emotional connection where we were there for each other. There was a trust, there was a bond, and that’s where the book really hopefully gives some tools that are all backed by science, did a lot of research on this.

[00:13:55] Joe Brocato: That gives us the confidence that if we use this toolbox in the book, that it really maximizes the likelihood of hitting it off with someone, which is the name of the book when we first meet them, which is really important in our business. We meet somebody at a cocktail party or in a meeting or an event.

[00:14:12] Joe Brocato: We really have to make that great first impression. And then we really have to develop that emotional connection over the long term. We have that relationship that’s difficult, if not impossible, to replace. Did you know that 36% of potential clients would take their business elsewhere if they had a bad call experience?

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[00:15:51] Steve Fretzin: But let’s go back to the beginning, though, when you say you met, you meet someone at a cocktail party and you need to make a great first impression. What are a couple things that lawyers should be doing, saying how they should be having to make that first interaction count? Because you only, you only get one shot at a good first impression.

[00:16:10] Steve Fretzin: You don’t want to blow it yet. People are just winging it without any real. Thought of behind it, but yet there are things that you should be doing and thinking about before you just jump in and start, you know, glad handing people

[00:16:22] Joe Brocato: well. Again, I can only speak for myself, and I will tell you that, and I’ve probably learned to do this over time, more so than early on in my career, to be authentic, to be genuine, to be who you are, first and foremost.

[00:16:40] Joe Brocato: People are only gonna do business with you if they like you and they trust you. So you can’t, in a setting like that, come off as a salesy person, I know you’re big into not being salesy, which I think is a great message for lawyers. Be who you are. Have an air of confidence. Uh, not cockiness, but confidence in your ability and your desire to really help them.

[00:17:03] Joe Brocato: And as lawyers, we’re advocates. We like to protect people. We like to make sure their interests are being, uh, represented properly. So it’s very important that you convey a level of confidence and, you know, everybody has great qualities. We have to bring those great qualities out. It might be your humor.

[00:17:22] Joe Brocato: Um, you know, I don’t tell can jokes. I’m not a standup comedian, more of a sit down type of comedian. But for me, it’s really more, if there’s a situation where I can throw in some humor, Um, that’s tasteful, obviously. It lightens the mood. And another key component, this is in the book, it’s all about conscious listening.

[00:17:43] Joe Brocato: To really listen to what people are saying. You shouldn’t be really thinking about something you’re going to say next. And when you really practice active listening, I mean, science really does show that You have a higher likelihood of understanding what the person really meets and in a setting where you’re just meeting someone, if you’re not staying focused on what they’re talking about, what they’re saying, what they’re intending to say, and you’re missing out on great opportunities to connect with people.

[00:18:09] Joe Brocato: And there could be similarities that you have. They might mention an interest that they have. Like, you know, if someone mentions, uh, they’re a music fan and I might say, Hey, do you like Roshu? Uh, genre. That then gets into a, a sharing of interest that really promotes like mindedness. And again, the research that I have done says that if you’re able to tie those things together, You’re able to really maximize the likelihood of hitting it off with someone.

[00:18:35] Steve Fretzin: And I think a lot of that starts with not only, you know, a kind of a, a not overly crazy handshake, just a normal, like good pressure handshake and some eye contact, but also having a couple of questions prepared, right? Because if, if the goal is to get someone talking to understand about them and what they’re into so that you can then.

[00:18:55] Steve Fretzin: You know, reach in and commiserate on whatever it might be, you know, kids or their firm or where they live, what neighborhood, what restaurants they like, whatever music, whatever it might be. It starts off with some questions. Do you have a question or two that you like to ask? Like, assuming that… You and I just met at a, at a cocktail party and you walk up to me and you say, hello, Steve.

[00:19:17] Steve Fretzin: Nice to meet you. What are some things that you’d like to put out there? Like to get me talking?

[00:19:23] Joe Brocato: Well, there’s one question that may or may not be appropriate in the initial encounter, but something that Is it you

[00:19:29] Steve Fretzin: come here often? Totally inappropriate, Joe. Come on. Are we at Peterino’s? Is

[00:19:34] Joe Brocato: that a question I would ask at Peterino’s?

[00:19:36] Joe Brocato: If someone asked me that, I’d say, of course. Yeah. I’m here like every day. Just look for me in my booth. Um, by the way, at Perino’s, when I did have my booth, when I was not there that day for lunch, they kept my booth empty and they put my nameplate on there out of Yeah. Pure respect. And I, that’s

[00:19:53] Steve Fretzin: insane that they did that.

[00:19:55] Joe Brocato: I’m just kidding. Just kidding. Okay, just checking. But, but a question that I would have, uh, for really anybody that I’m dealing with eventually is how can I help you grow your business? It’s an open-ended question. Everybody’s looking to grow their business. And if you are able to help them do that in any way possible, they’re going to be very appreciative.

[00:20:18] Joe Brocato: The concept of gratitude cannot be overstated. It is truly a, a, an important part of the dynamic, really offering up value to people in a way that they want it. So you have to listen to what they’re looking for, what they need, and really put together your value chest. And be able to offer that up to people, but you always have to look for it.

[00:20:43] Joe Brocato: And this just happened last night. I was at a, uh, a family office, uh, networking events. Uh, there were 20 people and there’s several people that I actually had an opportunity to spend some time speaking with. But at the end of the night, I looked back and I said, well, what, what did I do? Right. Well, I listened because there was one gentleman who very significant, um, in a particular area of business.

[00:21:07] Joe Brocato: And I immediately. I thought of a connection with one of my clients where they own some property that I say what might be very interesting for this gentleman who I met, potentially buy, lease, develop, and now I’m going to, today, I’m going to introduce them. So, you have to always be thinking, listening, and putting the pieces together, and if you’re able to do that earlier on in the relationship, it could be that very first encounter.

[00:21:38] Joe Brocato: You’re going to leave people impression that you’re someone who can really help them grow their business. Yeah.

[00:21:43] Steve Fretzin: I would, I love that question that you asked about what, you know, business for you. Another way to phrase that, and I usually do this, let’s say I’ve been talking to someone for 10 minutes, I’m not promising anything, because I just met this person, they could be a lunatic, so I’m always careful.

[00:21:57] Steve Fretzin: But the way I phrase this question, Joe, it really is a safe way to do it, and that is, you know, what should I be listening for, looking for, in a good connection for you? And then let them talk. And I’m not committing that I’m going to make anything because I, I need to get to know them better. Maybe schedule a coffee or, or, or a zoom or something, but that way I can at least understand.

[00:22:17] Steve Fretzin: Oh, I’m looking to meet CPAs. I’m looking to meet these kinds of lawyers. I’m looking to meet people in health care, whatever it might be. It’s just a safer play. But I think, you know, if you can get someone talking for 5 or 10 minutes, Part of it is to build that relationship and get them talking. The other part of it that I think is important is to qualify.

[00:22:35] Steve Fretzin: And it doesn’t mean we can’t be friends with everybody. We actually have that ability. But if I find out that someone isn’t in legal, someone isn’t a lawyer or involved in legal at all, or they’re not really like connected to me in any way, shape, or form, I can be nice and I can say, great meeting you. I promised myself when I came here today, I was going to kind of, you know, meet a bunch of people, you know, kind of work the room and all that, but it was great meeting you, Joe.

[00:22:57] Steve Fretzin: And I’m going to, you know, go to the bar, go to whatever, but I’m going to, I’m going to move on and not sit and talk to that person for 30 minutes because my time in that two hour space or whatever I’m there for is critical. So make a friend, but also don’t feel obligated that you have to sit in the, in the mud with that person for too long.

[00:23:15] Steve Fretzin: Thank you.

[00:23:17] Joe Brocato: I completely agree. And you get that sense over time. You know, the gentleman I referred to is a very, very well established individual. Um, and I knew of him and, uh, had wanted to meet him over time. And what you say to someone like that is going to be different from someone who perhaps you literally have no idea who they are.

[00:23:38] Joe Brocato: You don’t know who invited them. You really don’t know them. And I liked your question about, you know, hey, who should I be looking out for, for you? And in situations where it’s appropriate, if you’re able to pepper the conversation with something solid, where they’re, you’re going to leave them with the impression that you’re someone they need to know.

[00:24:01] Joe Brocato: And in our legal profession, um, there are a lot of people who can draft a document, a lot of very smart people in our profession. But if you’re able to leave a potential client or a referral source with the impression that legitimate impression that. You know, a lot of people that can really help them grow their business, there is going to be a light that goes on in their brain and it’s going to trigger them to remember you.

[00:24:26] Joe Brocato: And then when you, if, and when you reach out to them again, that’s how they’re going to think of you. And that’s a great way to make a first impression.

[00:24:35] Steve Fretzin: And I think it’s a good segue. I know we’ve got about five minutes left and I wanted to make sure that you were able to discuss and share. The three pillars of relationships and how people, lawyers in particular, need to think about sustaining relationships.

[00:24:51] Steve Fretzin: And you’ve already kind of mentioned authenticity. You’ve kind of mentioned the emotional connection, but maybe go back and hit on those two points. And then the third pillar that you have, and I think that would be a great way to kind of wrap up the segment.

[00:25:05] Joe Brocato: Well, like I said earlier, you know, when I went through that period where I realized my happiness was, was sinking.

[00:25:11] Joe Brocato: I learned the importance of authenticity, of really looking inward and figure out who you are at core. What is your essence? What do you truly love to do? Martin Seligman, the grandfather of positive psychology, said that authentic habit is doing what you truly love to do. And so, if you’re able to identify that and have a good balance in your life, you can bring that authentic self into a relationship, whether into a cocktail party, into a meeting.

[00:25:41] Joe Brocato: Whatever it might be. So you’re being truly authentic. And when you are that way, then you’re able to set authentic goals. And these are goals that are tied to who you are at your essence, because the research shows that if you do that, then you’re much more likely to achieve your goal. You’re going to enjoy the journey to achieving the goal.

[00:26:01] Joe Brocato: And when you achieve it, you’re actually going to be happy, which I think is important. The second pillar really is that emotional connection, which we’ve touched on, and this is really a fundamental human need. When you’re able to figure out how to connect with someone on an emotional level and really capture the essence of humanity in that.

[00:26:23] Joe Brocato: Then you may have a friend forever. And so you have to work hard and the reason why I think a lot of people including me early on and even still to a certain extent today, if always have issues and problems doing that is because everybody’s busy. We’re pulled in a million different directions. And sometimes we take relationships for granted.

[00:26:43] Joe Brocato: So one of the big reasons I wrote Get It Off was to provide a toolbox for people. Things that would seem intuitive, whether it’s eye contact, whether it’s emotional intelligence, respect, providing value for people, using neural linguistic programming, mirroring and matching people, and to establish rapport.

[00:27:07] Joe Brocato: These things are backed by science, and if you use these 21 rules, you’re really able to focus on the dynamic of the relationship. And that’s really all about being critical. Critical thinking. Wrapping critical thinking, objectivity, in the dynamic, the interpersonal relationship that you’re having, and really being strategic in measuring up a situation, making sure you’re dealing with it properly, seeing what’s going right, seeing what’s going wrong, evaluating that honestly and objectively.

[00:27:38] Joe Brocato: And then having a game plan. So I really look at the book as a game plan, which I think if everybody has, we’re going to be able to really maximize our likelihood of success in life and in business.

[00:27:48] Steve Fretzin: So it sounds like if I can just, you know, take everything you just shared and say, so I guess winging it isn’t the best strategy for lawyers.

[00:27:55] Steve Fretzin: Is that, is that what I’m picking up? Fortuity,

[00:27:59] Joe Brocato: I’ve always said, not the best business plan. Yeah. I think we do need a game plan, you know. People don’t go out on a sports field without a play in their mind. We don’t have strategies. People don’t have strategies in sports or if a band goes on stage and they don’t know what song they’re going to play next, it’s not going to be as professional as it could be.

[00:28:18] Joe Brocato: And you’re not going to have the effect on your audience that you want to have. So having a game plan, and that’s why I feel like over the years I have put a game plan together. With a lot of inefficiency along the way. So my hope was in this book to really capture the essence of what I think is truly important.

[00:28:37] Joe Brocato: So people can take this, use it to their advantage, and really go confidently in the direction of their dreams.

[00:28:44] Steve Fretzin: And Joe, listen, I know that I always ask when I wrap up an interview like this about someone’s game changing book, and you, you put in How to Win Friends and Influence People. I would argue that book needs to be talked about right now.

[00:28:57] Steve Fretzin: I would almost rather hear about Your book on happiness, and I think lawyers right now need to find their happy place and find how to get happy the way you did. Would you be okay if I just did a flip on you and said let’s not, I mean wouldn’t flip friends and influence fine, but I think, can we talk about your book happiness?

[00:29:16] Joe Brocato: I would love to talk about it, I appreciate that. That it’s called happy is cool. How to ignite the true happiness in you. And in the course of my research for that book, I found out that the legal profession is the unhappiest profession. We have surfed past dentists for all the bad stuff and saw it good and so I’ve dealt with that in my own life my own career and the impetus for the book really was I was at a water park with my children and When they were much younger and I saw them in the water and they were having best time Laughing and I said to myself, how could I keep them happy like that for the rest of their lives?

[00:29:57] Joe Brocato: I just started jotting down Ideas, I have 30 of them, which I now call coaching keys in the book, uh, cause I also am a life coach. So I wanted to present a book that’s not just applicable to kids, but also to adults, people of every age. And so it’s written kind of as a coaching session where you have a little commentary on the issue and then you do answer some questions, you have a stream of consciousness exercise and then you set three goals for yourself.

[00:30:27] Joe Brocato: And I think. If people were to look at these coaching fees, they might say, well, there are a few that are applicable to me, some are not. The idea is to figure out what the impediment is to you, to your happiness, and really having a strategy around that. So that’s what that book is all about. If anybody wants to purchase it, I would love for you to read it.

[00:30:47] Joe Brocato: I do really think it’s important for lawyers. Um, to figure that piece out. Because if you go into a client relationship, potential client relationship, a referral source relationship, people don’t want to deal with people who are unhappy. It brings everything down. So if you come into the relationship confident and upbeat in a sincere way, because you truly are authentically happy, I think it really helps.

[00:31:11] Joe Brocato: It helps in your business development.

[00:31:13] Steve Fretzin: And if people want to grab that book or they, and they want to, or, and, or they want to get in touch with you to learn more about, you know, your law practice and. network with you, whenever that might be. What are the, the different channels? Um, we’ll, we’ll put those in the show notes as well.

[00:31:27] Joe Brocato: So my law firm email address is j. broccato at gazdel. com G O Z D L. com. And if you want to check out the website for my book, that’s coming out May 1st, I’ll be available everywhere. It’s hit it off the book. com and very interested in speaking with anybody who would like to chat more about any of the topics we’re talking today, say, I really do have a passion for business development, happiness, and, uh, getting it off of people.

[00:31:57] Joe Brocato: And happiness

[00:31:58] Steve Fretzin: is cool. That’s on Amazon or where’s that?

[00:32:00] Joe Brocato: It’s on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, uh, probably any site where you can order a book online. Okay.

[00:32:06] Steve Fretzin: Well, very cool. Very cool. Before we wrap up, I want to just take a moment to thank my wonderful sponsors, Practice Panther, Legalese Marketing, and of course Money Penny, uh, the wonderful sponsors of the show.

[00:32:17] Steve Fretzin: And, um, Joe, just thank you so much, not only for being a great friend and for… Um, you know, just, just all the years of, of sharing ideas together and, and when we, you know, collaborate over lunch or whatever it might be, and then finally getting you on the show, kicking and screaming to get you on here and sharing your wisdom with my audience.

[00:32:34] Steve Fretzin: And I just can’t tell you how much I appreciate, uh, you know, what you do and what you’re doing for the legal community. Uh, it’s really very, very noble. Well,

[00:32:41] Joe Brocato: right back at you, Steve. Thank you so much for having me on and looking forward to the next 20 years of our relationship.

[00:32:47] Steve Fretzin: Yes. I’m not going anywhere.

[00:32:48] Steve Fretzin: Getting older, but not, but not going anywhere. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Joe and I today. Um, listen, it’s all life, life and business and personal. It’s all about relationships and you know, Joe’s got all these great ideas and strategies and you know, tactical things and actionable things that you can do to, to develop stronger relationships that are going to not only help you in business, but in life.

[00:33:10] Steve Fretzin: And so I just highly recommend you checking that out and and you know for you It’s all about being that lawyer somebody who’s confident organized and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be well be safe Be good, and we’ll see you again soon.

[00:33:27] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Visit Steve’s website for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes