John Cannon: Changing Your Mindset and Overcoming the Fear Barrier

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and John Cannon discuss:

  • Overcoming the fear barrier and using that growth to strengthen the foundation of your firm.
  • Continued education for learning and expanding your knowledge to grow your law firm.
  • Changing your mindset and understanding the core of who you are.
  • Delegation, training, and managing the employees in your firm.

Key Takeaways:

  • Use your drive time to continue to learn to strengthen your business, such as through podcasts or audiobooks.
  • Change your mindset – you are a business owner who is also an attorney.
  • Utilize your time wisely. Limit your time and limit what your focus is to make your goals more tangible and measurable.
  • Everything you do that makes you a good lawyer can be documented.

“By having high quality content, putting it up on a regular basis, having search engine optimization that does well, having a website that gives lots of useful information and giving people the right answers, you’re building the keys of marketing.” —  John Cannon

Connect with John Cannon:  


Phone: 405-657-2323

Email: [email protected]




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



lawyer, people, law firm, marketing, firm, delegate, paralegal, systems, listening, business, attorney, mindset, oklahoma city, national guard, case, books, hire, website, successful, oklahoma


Narrator, John Cannon, Steve Fretzin


John Cannon  [00:00]

I’d say first and foremost, his mindset. And then part of that is you have to expand, to look at yourself as more than just a producer. All lawyers for the most part, we’re producers, we have a problem. We do research or we use our skills or experience to go fix that problem. Well, there’s a lot more elements to a business than just who’s on the production line.


Narrator  [00:26]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:49]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day. Well, it is another opportunity for you to learn how to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, on a fairly regular basis, people ask me, what is Fretzin do and I tell them we only do two things. And we don’t do we don’t work with law firms. We focus on working with individual attorneys. And we do two things. We do coaching and training to help them get their business development efforts to the next level, something that’s sustainable over a career. People go through my program one time and they’ve got it, they’ve got it locked down, and they do it. And then they should be self sustaining through the rest of their career. The other thing we do is roundtables where we put high functioning attorneys managing partners rainmakers in a pure advisory group where they can learn from each other share best practices. And in fact, tonight, I’m going to Bulls game with a bunch of my groups and people members, my groups, we’re gonna have a great time. That’s my first Bulls game, and many, many years I’m looking for in the bulls actually don’t suck, which is even better. So and then, of course, we’ve got lots of free stuff, you know, blog on my website, this podcast, I’ve got books, happy to send ebooks to anyone that asks and all that jazz. But the most important thing is why you’re here listening to the show. And that is because I’ve got tremendous guests, and today is no different. I’ve got John cannon, who is the founder of Kenan and Associates out of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. How’s



it going? Good. How are you? Thanks for having me today, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [02:13]

Yeah, it’s my pleasure. My pleasure. And I pulled a quote out that I thought we could talk about for just a moment before we jump into the, into the good stuff. This is a David Brinkley quote, it’s a successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with bricks others have thrown at him, or them. So anyway, to me, it’s like that’s life, like life throws you bricks. And you know, I’ve been in a plane crash I’ve had, you know, all types of crazy stuff go down in my life. And I always try to take things that normally people would like, freak out or panic, and I try to just take them and learn from them and try to like, make my life better and just become a stronger person. What does that mean to you? And when things are getting thrown at you, and you kind of



know the foundation? Yeah, oh, is think about the concept, or maybe a quote that we’re defined more by how we respond to failure than our successes. And so I think we all have adversity in this life. And it’s important that we find a way to deal with that on a personal level, financial level, business level, leadership level, a spiritual level, and so many more.


Steve Fretzin  [03:19]

Yeah. Today, I saw my son walked to the bus, it’s about 20 degrees here in Chicago, he walked to the bus, in a T shirt, no jacket t shirt out the door. And I just was like, too bad buddy. You know, you’re gonna freeze and you’re gonna have to figure that out. You know, because if I tell him put a jacket, I’m gonna get that come on dad, you know, what do you you know, that type of thing. So I don’t know if that’s bad parenting or good parenting. But that’s how I handle that you have only told them on your time. So I think



he’s learned more from them a spirit mistake than you tell him you need to put a coat on,


Steve Fretzin  [03:51]

sadly, or he’ll just think like, he’s cool. Because he doesn’t need a coat because he can handle the call. And I don’t know what’s gonna go down. But the kids getting kids tough. I’ll tell you that. So let’s, let’s get into the weeds here. So your background is unique. And you have a strong military background. And you’re still you’re still doing it. So talk about that and getting into law and in growing your law firm. And then we’ll, we’ll talk about some specific subjects I’ve got



planned. Yeah, I’ve got a lot of family has been in the service, World War Two and other armed conflicts. And I’ve always had the desire to join the military. It didn’t work after high school. I played football in college. And it didn’t work right after college because my family and I agreed to go to grad school first. And so after law school was when I joined up, I’m a judge advocate in the National Guard. And it’s been a real blessing to me and my family, and I get to participate that least once a month. I’ve gone on some active duty tours, and just really enjoy that experience. And I think it’s taught me a lot about leadership and running a firm and being careful with what you say and do and write a lot of succinct writing and memos that happen and military justice and I’m Jack spear. And so it’s taught me a lot about being an attorney, and taught me a lot about being a leader for our firm that’s continuing to grow. Yeah, what was the?


Steve Fretzin  [05:11]

How did you start your firm and kind of what’s been the trajectory of growth over the last number of years,



the military actually helped me start my firm, I had a federal technician position for the Oklahoma National Guard as a litigation attorney. And that allowed me to do outside work that didn’t conflict with my service to the National Guard. And at first, it started at a random case here, a random case there. And it became more and more and more and at one point, my boss who’s still my supervisor, and the JAG corps for the Oakland National Guard, he said, I think you need to slow down your private practice. And I said, I think I need to open up my own law firm. And after three months of notice, because it took a while to replace my role. I stepped out and I’ve been doing solo practice the past three years.


Steve Fretzin  [05:58]

Okay, but you’re not a solo practice. Right? You now have a full team.



Right? I’ve got five staff attorneys and eight people on our staff admin team, got an office manager who was a reborn paralegal, she’s been a paralegal for a long time and worked in the public defender’s office here in Oklahoma City together, many moons ago. And she is now officially our office manager. And we’ve got other paralegals intake staff, Client Care director and Accounts Manager, and we just keep growing, keep serving more people in our community has been great.


Steve Fretzin  [06:33]

You know, there’s a lot of attorneys that are terrified of the thought not only of going solo, but also if they are solo, building that out, you know, getting a paralegals getting a staff attorney, starting to build out a firm. What was your level of confidence once you started off on your own to develop it out and build it out with with more people? What? How did you make that that determination? And did you have any any question in your mind about doing it or hesitancy?



I think it’s just been a fluid thing, right? I think my mindset has changed so many times, I thought, Man, I can actually make as much money in private practice as a solo is I making working for the government. Or conversely, if I worked at a law firm, man, I’m doing enough that I could hire a receptionist man, I’m doing enough that I could bring on another lawyer, man, I’m doing enough that I can hire a paralegal and a junior associate and another associate and another paralegal and an Accounts Manager. And it’s just over and over again, a fear barrier, maybe as you would say, a brick being thrown at you. Yeah, you grab the right bricks and add them to your foundation, it becomes more and more powerful. Almost everybody on our team only has one or two jobs. It used to be everybody had five jobs. And the larger we’re getting, the more insulated we are and who’s doing what the better. People are getting their roles, because they’re becoming more and more succinct and the role and responsibilities they have in the office.


Steve Fretzin  [08:07]

In obviously, John, this show is about, you know, being that lawyer, and I think you’re demonstrating some of that in this interview so far, and I know it’s gonna get even better. Or there was business development and marketing, something that you found needed to happen maybe ahead of us to get the cash flow up to be able to expand was that a part of it?



Yeah, I absolutely needed to learn more about running a business, I didn’t get an MBA, I got what I think is the best education you can get in America, which is going to law school. And I’ve read books on law firm management, books, on management in general books on finance book on market books, on marketing, books on sales, podcast, after podcast, I’ve probably listened to, oh, at least 100 hours a year of podcast on law firms and marketing and sales and metrics and all those things. So I’m just constantly trying to learn more I at this point, I’ve got enough of a foundation I feel like that I’m finding an area of my business and trying to go deeper into that or finding a role in the law firm and trying to have someone become more and more experienced or higher level of expertise and an area of our business.


Steve Fretzin  [09:19]

It’s interesting, I know books are are a great resource and but I am hearing more and more than podcasts have become sort of the go to mechanism for learning and expanding you know, how someone markets more effectively or or develops better culture or business development, sales, etc. So it’s interesting that you say that it was one of the key areas.



Yeah, and I’m still an attorney that I go to court on a regular basis. And I like a lot of attorneys have a lot of windshield time, and I listen to music as much as anybody else. But I spent 80 to 100% of my time in my truck listening to podcast and trying to to grow and I just love that podcast. asked have, you know titles and brief synopsis so you can subscribe to the ones that are helping in a certain area and you can read what the title is and skip to the next one if it’s not relevant for you. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [10:11]

yeah. And I fast forward through some parts of it. Like, if I know there’s going to be and I got some sponsors that are going to be starting with me. But, you know, I sometimes I’ll fast forward through the sponsors, if I know like, what the timing is on it or something like that. It’s okay, I heard somebody fast forward through my best three best, because he’s like, I don’t care where people eat, or that I was like, but I always wonder if people people like hearing about different places in different cities. Like, I’m curious, like, I’m actually going out to Bob, by the time this airs, I will have already been back to like Park City. And I was listening to one of my guests talk about, you know, things to do in place to see and I’m like, Well, I’m going out there. So I don’t know people, people that travel, like to maybe I think like to hear about new places.



Yeah, I really like hearing that part of podcasts. The thing I skip, if I’m being honest, yeah, they’ve got a pre recorded portion that lasts for 30 seconds or a minute, I skip past what I’ve heard every episode, but I like hearing the things that aren’t on the exact topic. I’m with


Steve Fretzin  [11:04]

you, I’m with anything that’s repetitive that isn’t then that like, you know, in the nuts and bolts that I try to go through anyway, really interesting. So what So then what types of things are you doing to continue to stay profitable to grow to to be successful, what are kind of like, maybe two or three things that you find are really important that you could tell my audience that you’re doing that they could emulate.



So not to do specific shoutouts. But a specific shout out to the book, atomic habits. by James clear, it’s all about mindset. First and foremost, I am now in the mindset that I’m a business owner, that is an attorney. And so that was really a shift. For me, that’s happened really in the past three to six months. And so identifying who you are, and being comfortable, I think, is really powerful. So, in my mind, I have a law firm that is larger and more successful than we have right now. And so where we’re at, that is in conflict with growth, that’s strategic, and we’re helping more people I’m trying to stay away from so strategically, I see us as being a firm with eight or nine lawyers, and you know, 10, or 15, people support staff. So that means you have to be conscious about growth and financials and all these different parts of the business. So I’d say first and foremost, his mindset. And then part of that is you have to expand, to look at yourself as more than just a producer. All lawyers, for the most part, we’re producers, we have a problem. We do research, or we use our skills or experience to go fix that problem. Well, there’s a lot more elements to a business than just who’s on the production line. So I think that’s a big part of growth, is changing your mindset and recognizing systems within your firm your practice, so that you can continue to grow in those separate systems, not just getting good CLE and becoming a better litigator.


Steve Fretzin  [13:05]

You know, I want to get back into systems in a minute. But you mentioned that book, atomic habits and mindset, what was their one or two takeaways from that book, atomic habits that you’re that you’re able to share with us real quick?



Yeah. So for example, as opposed to, I need to work out more, I want to lose five pounds, that’s, I am a great athlete, I’m a healthy person, I, you know, always wake up and feel refreshed. So that’s an example about, you know, your thinking on the deeper level, not, not today, I’m nice to my wife, my Megan, we just celebrated seven years, it’s, I am a great loving husband that does things for my wife, or I’m a good father, and I do things for my kids. So it’s not like making a conscious choice on the surface level of today, I’m going to pick up it’s, you know, a deeper level of your identity, identifying yourself as a good father, a good husband, a good spouse, a Christian, or whatever your faith may be. I am a successful law firm owner, I’ve got great employees, and we take care of great clients. That’s a mindset level, like it’s a deeper level. And I think it gets to the core of who we are. And for me, it helps me to see things at a deeper level than today. I hope I make it to the gym and workout, if that makes sense.


Steve Fretzin  [14:24]

Yeah, so it’s almost like a pod, like either positive self talk or positive imagery of who you really are. So that you see or see the positives and see the you know, what you’re really doing for your clients, what you’re doing for your family. And you know, and then your behaviors will emulate what you’re saying.



Yes, absolutely, like a concrete perspective on the identity you’re trying to obtain. And then things that don’t comply with that. You they are in direct conflict with how you see yourself. So I am the owner of a multimillion dollar law firm. Anything that doesn’t comply with it. Uh, I’m working towards shifting out of or seen as in conflict with the identity I’m trying to get to.


Steve Fretzin  [15:07]

Okay. And then the tactical part of habits of building habits. What do you think there as far as like, Alright, so I’ve got that positive imagery and self talk, are there things that I can do that are on the ground constructive to make the habit to happen?



I think it’s protecting your time, protecting your energy. I’m a big advocate of block calendaring. I know that your listeners can’t see it. But I’m holding my paper planner in this hand, that’s got day week, month annual planning, I’ve got a duplicate type tracking system on my iPad, and I’ve got a 12 month calendar up on my wall that is every day of the year. And so I put things strategically, in my day, my week, my month, my quarter and the year, and I can’t remember the name of the book or the author of the day, but the the 12 week year, I think that’s a great idea of reevaluating things and looking for what can I do in the next week, what can I do in the next month to grow on marketing and sales and team and client services and production and your build and your financials and yourself all these different parts of a successful firm? Yeah, I’m


Steve Fretzin  [16:16]

a big quarter guy. So what I’ll do is I’ll put up goals for q2 goals for q3. And I also separate what I have to get done that I really want to get done and have to get done. And then I’ll take the things that are nice things like I’d like to get done, or that would be great if, and I put them on sort of like a wish list. And then when I get rid of all the things that I like or not get rid of, but like finish the things that have to get done, then maybe I have capacity to bring some other things over. But this way, I’m not overwhelmed. Because I think people feel like they’re drinking out of a firehose. And if I can limit it to five or six things a quarter that I have to get done, and that are important to my business or my life, then it makes it much more tangible that I can do it.



So I agree completely, I think a year is hard for us to quantify in our head, like how much time that is, and what we can or can’t get done in a year. But like you said, I think quarters, three months is a logical logical time of big projects, maybe the first month gets ate up and you can’t do the things you want to get done. Okay, I need to focus these last 60 days and these key projects. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [17:25]

And maybe that organization is a good segue to systems because you mentioned systems and how important that is in in running a successful law firm. So talk to us a little bit about systems.



So again, the mindset shift, I always have a mindset for a long time, I’m successful as a lawyer, because I’m a really good lawyer. Well, I’m a good lawyer, sometimes. Because there are certain things that I do from people that I’ve watched and learn from in every single case, which means that I can memorialize turn into procedures at this level of affirm turned into policies, and then systems for all those things. So the way that we open a file is just the monetize. The way that we get discovery review, discovery, shared discovery with the client is systematized


Steve Fretzin  [18:13]

is that apologizes that through a software, some program that you that you’ve invested in,



while we have it recorded on our case management system, but it sucks. Now. I don’t want to dog our case management system. But it’s written out. We also have a, like a concrete policy and procedure manual. It’s based on area of the law firm. And that’s on Google Drive, in our case management system on our cloud and our physical computer. And we have a paper copy of it. But everything that I do that makes me a quote unquote, good lawyer can be documented. And so at first, it was just talking it out. And so I’ve talked these things out with our office manager, and we’re working on writing them down and then tweaking them. And then you give that list of how to handle a case to a newish paralegal, which we had on our team recently, or a new lawyer. We just had someone graduate at the bar, or graduated law school and passed the bar. And as they start to internalize those things, and we supervise and we get together and talk pain points, they will start to be that quote unquote, good lawyer. And so that was a mindset shift for me, of the stuff that I’m pretty good at. I can write down I can delegate and if it’s done 80% as well as I do it, then it’s worth the time that I’m getting back. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [19:31]

I think a big part of why lawyers struggle with growth is because of the training and delegating. There’s just so much fear around things, you know, imploding or not getting done properly. And I think there’s a number of different you know, task management systems. I know I just had the gentleman from file vine on and he was talking about, you know, his task management system and it’s it sounds like you know, that’s what people need is we need to have a way of communicating, collaborating, cooperating on getting things He’s done and, and making sure that there’s transparency. Yeah, I



think it’s important to look at the spectrum because I recently was on a video chat with a peer that has a criminal defense firm in a different city. And they are tasks listed and check the box and mark things to a level that I don’t think would be helpful for our team. I think it might be a little micromanaging. And so it’s finding that right balance between identified written out tasks, which I think is somewhere in the middle, and I think you can go too far to the right and too far to the left. But I think it’s really powerful. Because I, I’m type A plus, as my wife calls it. And it’s helped me to be comfortable delegating, when I know that the person doing a job that’s been assigned, has the way I want it done on paper, at least. Yeah. Yeah, something


Steve Fretzin  [20:51]

that I’ve recommended to lawyers, and maybe this is part of your system is like, so if you give something to an associate, and the associate gives it back to you, and it’s junk, right? It’s not at all what you want it or it’s not, there’s grammatical errors, whatever, like to give a checklist, right to like, say, Hey, I’m giving you this project. Here’s the five, six things that need to be checked off. And once you check them off, then you can turn it back into me, right? And so how many times is that going to happen where they have to check off boxes, turn it into you where it’s not going to be right at that point, it’s there, they’re doing the checking before it gets to you? Yeah, I



think training, like in the military that teach us that you probably shouldn’t supervise directly more than three to five people. And so as your firm gets larger and larger, you need to train to the system, and delegate leadership to other people in your office. And that’s what we’re starting to get to this point. And so it’s having that person that is supervising others, be comfortable with the system and how you want it done and how it’s supposed to be I think, pen and paper, printing something off and marking it up and reading is still really powerful. Because they can see, tangibly, this is how supposed to be done. Now we’re a more courtroom oral advocacy focused firm, but we still do a lot of writing. But we meet once a week by practice area with everyone that’s involved in those practice areas. And we talk through every case. Now some case, everybody knows, Yeah, we’re good and nothing until 60 days from now. But some cases we will talk about for a while. And I’ll interject how I think it should be handled. And we found that a great accountability tool, a great teaching tool, great team building tool, because we’re going through pain points and difficult cases together. Yeah. So


Steve Fretzin  [22:31]

I think I think that really helps a lot with regards to delegation and systems and how you, you know, how you how many people you can manage. And I think the problem with a lot of managing partners as they try to wear too many hats. Like they’re the manager, they’re the CEO. They’re the Rainmaker. They’re the lawyer, they’re the this that the other. And how does someone do that really ineffective way is that that’s sort of impossible, right?



Oh, I think so. I think we only have so many hours in the day, and I live in six minute increments for the most part. But there’s still just, we’re only one human. I mean, even if you’re a great lawyer, and I’m not sure I’m a great lawyer, we only have so much time and energy, and how do you spend, you know, deep thought and focus on specific areas? If all you have is the 30 minutes that week, you’re going to spend on it, you need that bandwidth to think about things at that C suite level.


Steve Fretzin  [23:22]

Yeah, I mean, the fact that you say you’re not even really sure you’re a good lawyer, I think that that’s something a good lawyer would say, by the way, I mean, just just FYI. But the last thing I want to kind of talk about before we get to the three best of and I know people are interested in hearing about Oklahoma City, because if they’ve never been there, they’re going to be curious about what’s going on. Is is sales and marketing. So that’s for many of the listeners to this show, kind of like why they’re listening. They’re looking to get tips and ideas on best practices for sales and marketing, and branding and social media and all this stuff. There’s just so many options, and and mostly lawyers hate all of them. So what how did you get comfortable with and I know you read and you listen and all that. But are there a few things that you feel like you can focus on as opposed to trying to do everything? Or how do you how do you manage the sales and marketing promotional side



of the firm? Yeah, so I have subcontractors and you know, I routinely evaluate their performance. See if there’s a return on investment, they’ve got key performance indicators that evaluate whether they’re hitting those marks or not. But I think, you know, you have to be able to delegate some things in marketing as a good one because lawyers were not natural at marketing. I mean, it’s something I’m passionate about. But if I don’t hand some of that off, I’ll spend all my time on marketing. But I think there’s really passive marketing and active marketing as to marketing things like blog posts, social media, writing a book writing ebooks, resources that people can find. active marketing is some of the hard stuff like the old school, leather bound books and rich mahogany. So referrals, calls to your network calls to clients leading workshops, speaking events, hosting events, networking, search engine optimization, A ProClick service, you know, the LSAS that have Google has direct mailers, TV, radio billboards, and we do some of those things, but not all. And I don’t know if this addresses your question. But I believe that Google owns marketing right now, at least for lawyers, I feel like if somebody has a question in my area, they don’t call a friend or reach out to the family attorney. We’ve turned into Mexican restaurants, they look us up and see how many Google reviews we have. Is it five stars at one star, they ask a question online. Am I going to be able to see my kids after I get divorced from my wife? Well, if they find your website on the first page of that Google Search, which gets more than 85%, of the traffic of online search, so being and Yelp those other things exist, but I think if you serve one master, Google is the one to pick. But having high quality content, putting it up on a regular basis, having search engine optimization that does well, having a website that gives lots of useful information, if you’re given people the right answers, you’re building the keys of marketing, which is know like and trust, if they know you, because they find you, if they like you, because of your message and your brand and how you present and that they trust you because you give them good content and the answers the pain points for free. That’s been game changing for us.


Steve Fretzin  [26:19]

Yeah, and you’ve got to think you’ve got a video on your website that was just really clean about, you know, like, just to make me feel warm and fuzzy about, you know, working with you, if I was looking at looking for a lawyer.



Yeah, we I mean, it took a long time to get to that we have a YouTube channel that needs a lot of work and a lot more time, which is one of my goals this quarter, we’ve got a bunch of videos on our website. But we recently hired a local media company that did, I think, a great job comparable to Chris video, they’re a national firm, they do great work. But this local company I’ve got a relationship with now they’re going to do other videos for me. And we built kind of that know, like, trust us video, and I had a meeting with them last week, and they’re going to come and do more and more videos, we’re gonna do a video that’s just client testimonials. We’re going to do a video about working with us on your family case working with us on your criminal case. And just time, I mean, over time, you can do more and more content, we didn’t invent our website that has 2000 Plus pages of content. And a week, it’s been years, you know, I’ve been adding content to our website, every week for three years. So somebody is just getting in the game, get a good website designer, I’ll be happy to share mine with you. It’s not a national firm that you have heard of already. And get a good website up, give value, give knowledge teach people about their pain point and what you know, as a lawyer that they would want to know, I think back to something I heard a long time ago, I thought was pretty funny. You know, I know how to do good example. There are things that I know how to do. Like if I watched a web and T video, maybe I know how to operate on my ankle. That’s a terrible example. Just because you learn how to do something doesn’t mean you want to do it yourself. Yeah, go go to restaurants, even though we know how to make dinner. Nice to have someone cook for you. So people the secret sauce, and they trust you, they’re still going to hire you to fix their legal problems.


Steve Fretzin  [28:16]

Yeah, and I think the other thing that kind of a takeaway is, you know, a lot of the marketing if you can find the right agency, the right individual, whatever to take the marketing to some degree off your plate, it doesn’t mean you can’t be involved doesn’t mean you can’t set metrics or that you can still do some marketing. But if you’re looking to be have a robust messaging, branding, social media campaign, you need to hire, outsource it generally. And then leave the business development up to you. That’s where I come in. I’m teaching lawyers how to do the ground game, the groundwork, okay, that’s harder to delegate. There’s a few firms that have delegated it to salespeople. And for some it might be working, I know a couple of successful people in that role. Generally, though, lawyers have relationships with other lawyers, they have relationships with clients, the work is out there, we just have to go get it. But you have to then have the marketing as your backup support, wait up to get your name out there and also to convert. So I think that’s really that’s really smart that you’re that you’re that you’ve delegated a number of things, because you realize you can’t do everything.



Yeah, they’re just, they’re separate systems in a law firm. And I think oftentimes, we only think about the ones that we’re good at or comfortable with. But marketing exists for law firms, you have to have it and you’re not going to get new clients. Look what happened during the pandemic, to some law firms that have been based on referrals only, or based on some other successful business. You have to have sales in your law firm, whether it’s internal or external. You have to have people that know how to sell know how to follow knew how to reach potential business. You have to have production you have to have people good at getting the work done. You have to have staffing. You have to have your physical space where you do the work you have to financial controls and metrics that you look at. And then most importantly, we all have to have the you the person that is the brand that person And that is the captain of the team. And I think I try and delegate as many of those as I can. But we’re, we’re going through the pain point or the fear point I have right now of hiring a full time marketing assistant or director of marketing, because I never thought that I would hire somebody that their job would just be to market our firm. But it’s feeling like that as a possibility. So we’ve already done in person interviews, we’ve got somebody we’ve met with with get staffed up another virtual company, like as much as get staffed up, and I won’t say their name. But you know, that’s a pain point. That’s a fair point for me. And I’m trying to break through that threshold myself. Because I think that can be game changing for us where we’re at. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [30:44]

well, listen, you know, you know, keep up what you’re doing everything sounds like it’s working, and you’re on a great trajectory, your mindset and your attitude are terrific. And, and I think it’s terrific. So John, if people want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way for them to reach out?



Yes, you’re welcome to call our office any day. We’ve got an answer. 24 hours, seven days a week, it’s 405-657-2323. You can visit our website, which is JP canon law. Or you’re welcome to shoot me an email John at JP canon law.


Steve Fretzin  [31:17]

Terrific. Thanks so much. And let’s finish up with the three best stuff, since it’s something you’re not going to fast forward through, and hopefully other people aren’t either. Now that I heard that someone did, that’s okay. So coming out to visit you, Oklahoma City. You’re four miles outside of the city. Where were we going? I’ll treat you take me out for a great night out. Where are we going?



Absolutely. So we’re in Oklahoma cattle country. So we would definitely be going to one of our favorite steak houses. Oh, yeah. mahogany, top notch. Ranch Steakhouse. Both I would say five star restaurants. You could do a 10 course meal at either one. If you want wagyu prime rib, Angus, dry age. And every side dish you can imagine so it definitely go to a steak house. Okay, if you’re coming anytime soon, we could go hunting rifle season opened up on Saturday, so to duck season, and I dropped off a one of the biggest bucks in my career. This morning here in Oklahoma City after opening rifle for weekend. How many points? 11 points. And I think is my biggest so far. We were all sporting today. And he was 150. Wow, beautiful, beautiful thing. But yeah, it was pretty pretty awesome to get him


Steve Fretzin  [32:31]

turned in. But you turn that into get it processed?



Yeah. Dropped off the cake to have a shoulder filter mount done. Oh, okay. Sure. Wow. Yes. And then last but not least, Oklahoma doesn’t have a lot going on. But sure as heck have football. Oh, yeah. Trying to get you to an O year Oh, she football game. Bad lumps coming up around the corner. So I’m anxious. But on the center.


Steve Fretzin  [32:53]

Awesome. Awesome. And what are the locals into obviously hunting in football. But anything else that did that you guys are doing on a regular basis?



Yeah, so Oklahoma City is kind of becoming a foodie town, we’ve had an explosion of population, new businesses moving in lots of food. Lots of great restaurants. So we just had a red Solo pup open up where you can take your dog and have drinks out on the lawn. We’ve got a midtown area with neat bars and nightlife. So I’m almost 40 now and I’ve got three little kids. So it’s a little late for me. But for young single people, it’s turning into a great city to go out socialize restaurants, and really fun things to do on the weekends around here. Very cool.


Steve Fretzin  [33:33]

Well, listen, John, thanks so much for being my guest and sharing your wisdom and in your experiences in growing your law. Practice. I wish you I wish you best of luck to keep in touch for sure. And listen, you know, it sounds like you are that lawyer that I’ve been talking about on this show for the last couple of years.



Yeah, we’ve had a blessed couple of years and hopefully we continue to get to serve a large part of our communities legal needs. Awesome. All


Steve Fretzin  [33:55]

right. Well, thank you. And hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to John and I chatted up a little bit today. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways. And I know I’ve got my usual page notes on my trusty remarkable two that I’m not getting any credit for saying that because I’m not a sponsor, but I love it on paper free. And listen, be that lawyer confident organized the skilled Rainmaker. That’s what it’s all about these days, take care be safe be well.


Narrator  [34:22]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes