In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jonathan Baum discuss:
- Transitioning from a big law firm to independent practice
- Cultivating strong client relationships for career sustainability in law
- The evolving dynamics of legal work
- Personal branding and positioning oneself in a competitive legal environment
Key Takeaways:
- Independent lawyers can effectively compete with large firms by assembling specialized teams for specific projects, which allows them to deliver high-quality services while remaining flexible and responsive to client needs.
- The financial advantages of independent practice are substantial, as independent lawyers can retain up to 99.7% of their billed income, a stark contrast to the lower take-home pay typically seen in large law firms.
- For lawyers transitioning from big firms, conducting a thorough risk assessment and leveraging existing client relationships can help establish a sustainable practice without relying on a large firm’s reputation.
- The belief that clients require a big law firm’s name can be countered by demonstrating that hiring based on a lawyer’s individual expertise and client relationships is far more crucial for achieving favorable outcomes.
“If you really think that leaving that firm is going to cause you to lose all those clients, I would ask you, are they really your clients in the first place?” — Jonathan Baum
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Episode References:
The Ezra Klein Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ezra-klein-show/id1548604447
About Jonathan Baum: Jonathan Baum has more than 40 years of experience as a corporate, securities, and finance lawyer, including many years organizing and managing legal teams. He considers himself to be a big law and big city escapee and spends time supporting the overall well-being and success of the legal community through Avenir Guild, an online portal where legal professionals can access resources and a community that empowers their legal career at every stage.
Connect with Jonathan Baum:
Website: https://avenirguild.com/
Email: [email protected]
Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobaum/
Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/avenirguild/
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Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey listeners, I know you’re getting a ton of amazing tips from our expert guests here on the show, but keeping track of them can be a challenge. I know that. That’s why I’ve created Blogcasts, the perfect way to capture the best insights from every episode. Each Blogcast condenses an entire show into a two page summary packed with key takeaways that you can apply right away.
[00:00:21] Steve Fretzin: Head over to Fretzin. com slash blog to start reading, learning, and taking action. Let these blog casts help you on your journey to be that lawyer with Fretzin. Now enjoy the show
[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin Will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now, here’s your host Steve Fretzin
[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the be that lawyer with me Fredson podcast.
[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: You’re having a lovely day today. Wow. Rock and roll. We just had a, you know, beautiful weekend here in Chicago. And Jonathan, you’re where you’re up in New York. No, I’m in Western Mass, in the
[00:01:12] Jonathan Baum: Berkshires, just adjacent to New York State. Okay, got it, got it. But you’re from New York? Yeah, born and raised in Brooklyn, you know, old Brooklyn, and moved up here around 30 years ago.
[00:01:22] Jonathan Baum: Oh
[00:01:22] Steve Fretzin: man, okay, really, really nice. Well, we’re going to get into your background in a minute. As everyone knows, this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. We’ve got a lot to cover today and we’re going to have some fun and and Jonathan’s going to be an amazing guest.
[00:01:36] Steve Fretzin: We’ve got a great quote. I love when it’s a new quote, a quote I haven’t heard and a quote that really is, you know, when I read it like three times just to make sure, you know, I kind of get it and it resonates with me, but I want to hear your take on this. You never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete And that’s buckminster fuller and i’d never heard that before but I I would love to get your take on that and welcome to The show by the way.
[00:02:02] Jonathan Baum: Well, thank you steven. Thank you for inviting me. This is my first podcast and i’ll try to behave accordingly
[00:02:08] Steve Fretzin: If by the way, I mean have fun and enjoy yourself then yes,
[00:02:11] Jonathan Baum: that’s exactly what I mean
[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: Okay,
[00:02:13] Jonathan Baum: so my thoughts on the fuller on that quote. Is that what you’re asking? Yeah, I think that it’s been a model for my career even though I didn’t know it, meaning I sort of was executing what Fuller was talking about and only then found the quote.
[00:02:27] Jonathan Baum: And I think it’s as you were alluding to in your opening comments, it’s My reaction living in a world of, you know, big law and, and all the dynamics that go with that.
[00:02:38] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You know, I did this a little bit in my career, meaning I started off doing coaching and I was only doing coaching, which is great and important to do for lawyers.
[00:02:48] Steve Fretzin: I was working with entrepreneurs and I updated it to coaching with a training component. Right. And so I’m one of the only lawyer coaches in the country that has. a full class of, you know, 12 to 15 lawyers from around the world that are in a class learning the skills in conjunction with the coaching model, which most lawyer coaches have.
[00:03:07] Steve Fretzin: And I feel like that’s, you know, kind of right in line with this quote in the sense that I feel like the coaching model, I know it still works, but for me, in my mind, it’s somewhat obsolete that I would never go back to. And people that want to just hire me as a coach, I tell them, no, I’m I’m not going to do that.
[00:03:23] Steve Fretzin: If you don’t want the training component, let me introduce you to some coaches. That’s what they do, because I just believe in it so fully, but anyway, we’re going to get into it. So Jonathan Baum, you’re the founder of Avenir Law, Avenir Guild, and let’s get a little background on you because, you know, from big law to solo and kind of how did, how did you get into law?
[00:03:41] Steve Fretzin: And then how did that convert over to, you know, the solo and where you’ve taken it?
[00:03:45] Jonathan Baum: So can I just challenge language right out of the box a little bit? Sure. Sure. I do not consider myself a solo. Solo has all these implications, particularly in a small town where I am, of, you know, sort of like matrimonial nine DUI at 11 and a real estate closing at noon.
[00:04:01] Jonathan Baum: I view myself as an independent lawyer as distinct from a solo. And I think it’s a language issue that afflicts the entire profession. I’m glad I brought it up then. Yeah, so I know I’m not
[00:04:13] Steve Fretzin: answering your question. No, no, let’s go back to your to your background in a moment But just take a moment another moment on that So solo versus independent and you’re again You’re changing the existing reality of what people that are on their own would consider themselves And I just want you to take another moment on that
[00:04:30] Jonathan Baum: Sure.
[00:04:31] Jonathan Baum: So I think it’s an important distinction. I think that by independent, it means that I view myself as capable of doing very much the same work as a major law firm can do. My practice Is 90 percent funds and asset management, which is usually the realm of, you know, the big shops, Sidley, Shelton, to a certain extent, Seward, the usual players in that space.
[00:04:55] Jonathan Baum: And then there’s, of course, another tier below that. I do the same work and I think it’s a bold claim, but I feel like I do the same work that they do and the clients that I have often have migrated from the big firms to me. So the question may then be, how could you possibly do the same work as a firm of 2, 700 lawyers in 13 cities and 11 countries?
[00:05:16] Jonathan Baum: And the answer is that I get, when I get an engagement, I do a sort of mission impossible thing, going back to the old TV show, not Tom Cruise, where I ask myself, what expertise is required to get this project done, whether it’s tax, You know came in whatever the underlying asset class might be biotech distress that what have you and then i assemble a team of those people who i need in order to get the work done i then leave the team i often.
[00:05:47] Jonathan Baum: Do a lot of the work if it’s a securities offering and we get the job done. We get paid. We go home, although all the time, but I guess I
[00:05:57] Steve Fretzin: guess the term solo really put someone a bit on an island where you’re more of a collaborative independent working with. Teams to assist the clients in getting their issues resolved and helping them with, you know, whatever they need is sort of an outsource gc type of role.
[00:06:13] Jonathan Baum: I think that’s right and i think that my model if i could push it even further is actually far better than retaining a major firm so. Because when I need to find an IP person for a particular project or a biotech or what have you, I can go anywhere. I mean, I can contact anybody in any firm where they may be, and they love it when I ring because they are basically the origination person at their firm getting full credit for that work.
[00:06:43] Jonathan Baum: As many distressed debt people as a top five firm might have. I have everyone on my disposal. I can call anyone and I’ve never yet had a person in a big firm say or any firm say, you know, other than for a conflict possibility,
[00:07:00] Steve Fretzin: but let’s go back then for just, you know, a minute to talk about your background because, you know, the things you’re doing today are, I’m assuming very different from where you, you know, where you were started and why did you get into law?
[00:07:12] Steve Fretzin: What was your, what was the push?
[00:07:14] Jonathan Baum: That I was not going to be successful as a classical clarinetist, that I trained my whole life from, you know, grade, middle, high school, college, went overseas to study clarinet. I was competing overseas to get into the Paris conservatory, looked around and thought, oh, my God, this world is a lot harder than I thought it would be.
[00:07:37] Jonathan Baum: So, you know, I went, I don’t know if that sounds terrible or not, but. Sort of law was my, you know, my, my default, you know, and satisfied my Jewish family’s desire to have a professional. And, but in terms of the work that I did, you know, I hadn’t really thought about it, but from the very beginning, I was doing security syndication, IPO work, and I benefited from having the, one of the greatest mentors ever.
[00:08:03] Jonathan Baum: And a man named Monty Wetzler was since passed. And so my, my professional career is really centered around securities offerings, both as a lawyer. And then I went and worked on wall street for a while as a banker. Then came out again, but that’s what have been the center of gravity for my work. Yeah.
[00:08:21] Steve Fretzin: Got it
[00:08:22] Jonathan Baum: You
[00:08:22] Steve Fretzin: know in the big firm Look, I don’t want to speak ill of of any group or whatever, but it but it definitely feels like they are, you know Leveraging talent to make money and bill hours and there’s a lot to be learned but I think there’s also Maybe a reason to leave and again if you can’t move up, you know, you where are you moving?
[00:08:44] Steve Fretzin: You’re just kind of moving on so so I what was your experience in big long? What are the sort of the challenges benefits of leaving and when why you left? Well, the way you
[00:08:53] Jonathan Baum: pose the question makes it sound far more thoughtful than I was You know, I think a lot of accused of worse No, it’s just that, you know, when many people, particularly my classmates, look at my career and where I wound up and they think, my gosh, how did you plan?
[00:09:10] Jonathan Baum: How did you execute? And I think, oh, my God, no. Yeah, so basically, I was with Fenwick when they had a satellite office in New York back in the mid eighties, I think. And they were closing that office at the same time, I had a big client at a big wire house, big investment bank. And they invited me to leave law and go down and be with a firm called at the time EF Hutton, we were acquired by Shearson.
[00:09:37] Jonathan Baum: So really, it wasn’t as willful as you
[00:09:40] Steve Fretzin: know.
[00:09:41] Jonathan Baum: And I don’t know if you’re asking for my trajectory. So but I was on Wall Street for a while, then I went and worked in at the time was the largest financial services bankruptcy. Before Lehman that consummated met my wife, love of my life, had a baby. We had a second home up here, which is very popular for New Yorkers.
[00:10:02] Jonathan Baum: And then one Sunday afternoon with a nine month old, I just like, why are we going back to New York?
[00:10:10] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. This is it.
[00:10:11] Jonathan Baum: And we never went back.
[00:10:13] Steve Fretzin: But thinking about yourself, but maybe even more so about other lawyers that are listening right now that, you know, may be at big firms or that have had maybe a similar experience.
[00:10:22] Steve Fretzin: I mean, what’s the, what are the challenges of leaving that environment and what are the benefits of being independent? I
[00:10:29] Jonathan Baum: think the starting place is to have clarity on your risk and your exposure. So over the years, my friends in the big firms would say, how do you bear the risk of being You know, up there in the Berkshires on your own and I said, and I always say, how do you bear the risk of being in a big firm where if you don’t make your number, you’re going to be now.
[00:10:48] Jonathan Baum: There was a big article last week in a lamb about the equitization. I’m sure you saw it as well. And we would have these. Conversations that went nowhere, which is that they’re just different risk profiles. And you and I chatted when we spoke a few weeks ago that, what do you call it? Meeting? Oh, I call the
[00:11:07] Steve Fretzin: you ink.
[00:11:07] Steve Fretzin: Everybody’s a you ink. And they, yeah. And I think that if you
[00:11:10] Jonathan Baum: don’t, if you don’t think you’re a you ink, you’re not paying attention.
[00:11:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:11:14] Jonathan Baum: And so. I, if I were talking to someone in a firm, I would say, I don’t think our risk profiles are that different. I think we both, you know, we all, you know, live or don’t thrive based on our relationships with clients.
[00:11:29] Jonathan Baum: We can get into that more deeply if you want, but the typical pushback from colleagues and friends in the big shops is admin, infrastructure, all that sort of thing. But when I walk them through it, you know, particularly how much money they’re leaving on the table, in terms of what they actually take home.
[00:11:48] Jonathan Baum: You know, I think, you know, my, the way I work and live is a very compelling economic argument. I take home 99 point, I don’t know, 7 percent of every dollar I bill and collect.
[00:11:59] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:12:00] Jonathan Baum: You know, there’s no, nobody in a firm gets anywhere near that. They’re over 50%, it’s a good day.
[00:12:06] Steve Fretzin: Well, the other add on to that, Jonathan, and again, you know, 90s and 2000s is different than even today from a standpoint of, The ability to work remotely, the, you know, the fact that zoom is now an acceptable way to manage, you know, people and clients, the fact that V.
[00:12:20] Steve Fretzin: A. S. exists that can take care of admin paralegal, a lot of the different things like, you know, but there’s the feeling that when someone goes out on their own. They’re going to have, you know, all this overhead and all this responsibility. And some of them get overwhelmed with that. They do. I do. And
[00:12:35] Jonathan Baum: I typically walk that person through every element.
[00:12:38] Jonathan Baum: Tell me what you need.
[00:12:39] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Jonathan Baum: And let’s put a price on that. You need, you know, you need LPL, you need admin. Let’s talk about that. Right. You know, and if I don’t make, if I have a problem, you know, if I don’t make in what I think is my number, my only conversation with my wife, I don’t have to meet with some managing partner who’s got me wondering whether I’m going to have an office next week.
[00:13:00] Jonathan Baum: But I think going to your point, if you just get a little bit granular and say, what do you need, you know,
[00:13:05] Steve Fretzin: yeah, but it sounds like you had some business when you left that air, you know, the big law. And then in the secondary experience you had, is that part of of what? lawyers should be thinking about to go out on their own would be to, you know, just maybe, you know, have a few clients under your belt that, you know, can, you know, you could bring in some money and get yourself started.
[00:13:29] Jonathan Baum: Yeah. I mean, I had some, we had a new baby. I don’t know if I had any work when this case comes to this big bankruptcy council made it maybe had one client, but I think to your point, It doesn’t take a lot of water to float my boat. I’m living in a small town, I’m living in a 19th century Victoria, and I just don’t have the, the overhead.
[00:13:52] Jonathan Baum: I don’t mean just professionally, but personally. I think we live well. We just came back from two weeks in Italy, you know, I mean, it’s not like, you know, I’m sitting here.
[00:14:01] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, but I think there are people that are, and I don’t want to go down a rabbit hole with this, but I mean, there are people that, you know, work at Big Law, they make, you know, let’s just say a number, half a million a year, and they’re living right at that means, their house is too big, they’re, you know, they got three kids, they got a private schools, they got all this stuff where, you know, any extra, you know, it’s just like, how do they get out, they’re in a situation that seems like they can’t make change because they’re, you know, they’re living beyond or at, exactly at their means.
[00:14:30] Jonathan Baum: Well, I think that’s a lifestyle issue and, but again, exiting Scarsdale, you know, suburban money center cities is a way of improving your own bottom line.
[00:14:40] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Jonathan Baum: The other point I think that comes up frequently in my conversations is, I’ll lose clients if I’m not at a big name firm. And I take it and I run with it.
[00:14:50] Jonathan Baum: I say, you’re absolutely right. I mean, assuming you’re right, you could, but I, my argument is you can lose half that client base. And still do better bottom line and then we can get into other questions beyond the scope of our call today as to if you really think that leaving that firm is going to cause you lose all those clients.
[00:15:11] Jonathan Baum: I would ask you, are they really your clients in the first place? But that’s another with
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[00:15:39] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
[00:16:00] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? Learn If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. Well, and again, I think there’s the work you do on cases and then there’s the relationship and you know, there’s a number of different, you know, hands that might be in that pot, pulling, pulling that client in different directions.
[00:16:27] Steve Fretzin: I think the big argument is going to be. That this has been said so much as soon as I said, your guys are going to light up and you’re going to go. Yep. That’s it. You know that, you know, who wants to bet the farm or bet the litigation, you know, without the big law name. Right. Okay. So that’s what I want to debunk a little bit because I think that was a conversation you and I had that.
[00:16:47] Steve Fretzin: Where my eyes lit up when you started talking about how you kind of gone against the grain on that.
[00:16:52] Jonathan Baum: So try to be really good to illustrations. There are, I just completed a half billion dollar offering private placement for, I don’t want to go into the strategy. It’s so unusual. They’ll be able to identify.
[00:17:05] Jonathan Baum: Okay. And this is the 5th fund I’ve done for them. The first 3 funds that I did with them, their institutional client base, or at least the IR person, the investment relation person. The client felt they really needed a big firm in the on the book, and I said, fine, give me a name. Tell me a big name, a big log name that you want, and they gave me a name.
[00:17:28] Jonathan Baum: So I called someone I knew there. I said, look, I got this engagement. They want your firm name on the book, and they said, oh, we don’t do guarantees. We don’t just sell our name. I said, fine, do as much work as you want to do. Treat me as like a talented junior associate or something. I don’t know. So I would produce all the drafts, this shop would move commas around and maybe help me on tax a little bit, and their name went in the book, the client was happy, the IR person was delighted to go overseas with this book with this big international firm.
[00:18:01] Jonathan Baum: But after the third deal, oh, and by the way, the fees, the other firm, the big firm’s fees were the same as mine, but even combined, they were one third of what would have happened had they walked in the front door of this other shop. By deal three, my client was saying. Our clients are fine. You know, they don’t give a shit.
[00:18:23] Jonathan Baum: Yeah. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. So that’s one response. If you need a name, you can find a name for again in my world of securities offerings.
[00:18:32] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:18:33] Jonathan Baum: Do you have time for just another quick? Yeah, we do. Absolutely. So the other example I would give. Would be where I was outside GC to a fund that was about to had gotten drawn into a regulatory investigation.
[00:18:47] Jonathan Baum: And they were, they breached out to me to help, like, how do we sort this out? So what we needed was. If that’s a big name, we needed a really strong broker dealer, regulatory person. We needed someone who understood the regulatory environment in that state. We needed a strong litigator. We needed, if, if everything went to hell, we needed a lobbyist who had access to the governor of the state.
[00:19:14] Jonathan Baum: And I realized there was no one law firm that had all of that talent. So I got regulatory powerhouse out of Washington. I got the former securities. Administrator, commissioner of that state who was in private practice. I created this little team and the client loved it because they knew that if they had just gone through one door, they never would have had that talent base.
[00:19:40] Steve Fretzin: I mean, it’s awesome. And the, the, again, I think people going back to our original quote, right? They’re just fighting the existing reality, which is, you know, no big companies are going to want to work with me because I’m too small for them. And they’re not thinking about the idea of partnering. They’re not thinking about the relationships that they can bring in from other places.
[00:20:01] Steve Fretzin: And you’ve done that exactly that,
[00:20:03] Jonathan Baum: but I don’t want to minimize that point. You just made that is huge. You know, the old saying that no one got fired for hiring for example, but, you know, I used to work with. But now she was about to become GC for one of the biggest insurance real estate firms in the world.
[00:20:25] Jonathan Baum: And she and I talked about the, you know, so called cravat issue. And she said, you know, she just didn’t believe in the model. I mean, she got it. She would often go to big board meetings and went and the board members would want to know that, you know, big firm was there, but she was able to get her board to realize that, you know, it’s not the name, it’s the person.
[00:20:47] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. There’s a person at the big, the big firm that’s handling this. And the fact that they are associated with a big name. Doesn’t, you know, make them immune to mistakes or whatever. I think they’re just saying, well, at least I hired the big name, you know, nobody ever got fired for hiring. The big name is that’s been pushed around for, you know, decades.
[00:21:08] Jonathan Baum: So I think, you know, the perspective that I’m trying to promote is to hot that ultimately. Because i used to be a gc as well you know that ultimately it’s the person you know you need to be hiring people not firms and if you truly believe that. Then my business model makes perfect sense you know that my clients work with me because of because of me obviously i don’t have a big letterhead behind me.
[00:21:37] Jonathan Baum: It’s really about the relationship and you got and the client has to be one that believes in you, frankly,
[00:21:43] Steve Fretzin: right?
[00:21:45] Jonathan Baum: So
[00:21:45] Steve Fretzin: how does this all? Wind up together for lawyers who want to craft a fulfilling professional life. How is your model or or just your philosophy? Valuable to the people listening right now that are either Independent or small firm or whatever situation they’re in.
[00:22:03] Steve Fretzin: I
[00:22:04] Jonathan Baum: think it’s an alternative and I think that the starting place Is It’s to do a very frank risk assessment of where you are and compare that with other modalities and that may not just be being independent. You might find. You know that you want to have 1 or 2 other people with you. And the other point I would make is talk to your clients.
[00:22:25] Jonathan Baum: I think a lot of stuff goes unspoken. And I think that if you talk to your clients. and ask, you know, begin to test the waters a little bit and say, look, if I weren’t with blah, blah, blah, how would you feel? I must tell you, I’ve heard the other conversation sitting at the Beverly Hills hotel years ago, where somebody was confiding with a client that they’re leaving, combining their boutique firm with a monster firm.
[00:22:48] Jonathan Baum: And I’m just sitting here having my fresh orange juice. And it was devastating. This big client turned to his and said, I am so sorry to hear that because We love the fact that you were a small boutique and we got this personal attention. And I almost dropped my breakfast.
[00:23:07] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s, I tell you, I love what you’re saying in particular about, it’s the lawyer, not the firm.
[00:23:12] Steve Fretzin: And I, we really need to push that forward because there are lawyers at big firms or mid market firms. That are managing relationships that are developing friendships with the GCS and relationships with the CEOs and the people that are in charge and they can do whatever they want. They can stay in big law and continue to build the U ink right there.
[00:23:33] Steve Fretzin: Their business with that umbrella. And I think they’re going to live a very happy life doing that. And then the other side of it is having the ability to move laterally. If things go South with the firm or go out and be independent, I think there’s, there’s just all, and of course this is leaning into my stuff, which is business development.
[00:23:52] Steve Fretzin: You know, you need to have the clients and develop the, the origination in order to have some power, because if all you’re doing is work or be, I think that does that, that then changes the ability and the interest of How you may go about being independent.
[00:24:09] Jonathan Baum: Yeah. I think maybe the sense is going to sound to give you
[00:24:11] Steve Fretzin: just real quick.
[00:24:12] Steve Fretzin: If you go independent, but you’re not a client developer, then it lets you, you leave big firm. You have no business, no relationships. It was also everyone else’s you go out on your own and you still don’t have the skills to develop business while you’re maybe not in a great situation. You’re probably in a risky situation,
[00:24:29] Jonathan Baum: but I think that’s true where meaning.
[00:24:32] Jonathan Baum: I think staying Yeah, so it goes back to the opening point that you and I’ve been talking about of you ink me ink Whatever that yeah that the way the practice has evolved in the 40 plus years I’ve been practicing is that our only security rests in our relationships I don’t think that’s a great mode, you know, a great business model, but that’s where the profession is today.
[00:24:56] Jonathan Baum: And just to put a fine point on that last comment is that I think that you can use independence as a, an affirmative marketing tool. I know that sounds really and I think the answer is yes, for the reasons, you know, we’ve gone through in our little call in our conversation today.
[00:25:13] Steve Fretzin: I mean, look, if I can have the same lawyer and quality that I’m getting at a big firm and for lower rates because they’re on their own, I don’t know the downside for me, right?
[00:25:24] Steve Fretzin: As a business, whether that’s estate planning, whether that’s litigate, whatever it might be. I mean, it might, you know, it’s just, that’s why it’s been said for years, you know, I’m a big firm attorney at low, you know, independent rates or whatever it might be. That’s kind of been played out, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s true.
[00:25:41] Jonathan Baum: Right. So it’s a bit ironic. It’s a bit of an inside joke, but I try to peg my hourly rate to a first year associate at a top law firm.
[00:25:50] Steve Fretzin: Okay. You know, meaning like, That’s kind of how you’re doing it. And I like that. I would say, I would just give some advice to everybody as a non lawyer working with lawyers that You know, test that a bit, meaning if that’s where you are now, Jonathan, but no one’s really arguing your rates.
[00:26:05] Steve Fretzin: Everybody’s just totally fine with them. They might be lower than they could be to this. I’m sorry, Steve,
[00:26:10] Jonathan Baum: that I rarely build by the hour. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That most, I mean, it’s a whole different conversation. Not for today, but. I’ve done so many private placements. I’ve done so many IPOs that if I don’t know how much time it’s going to take, shame on me.
[00:26:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Jonathan Baum: So it’s project based, which makes sense.
[00:26:28] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Fantastic man. Let’s wrap up with, and by the way, thank you. Everything you said. And I think just inspiring to attorneys that are looking to be independent, whether they’re staying at their firm or going out on their own, or they’re currently on their own.
[00:26:40] Steve Fretzin: I think this was all You know, again, debunking and demystifying some of the things that have been said for years that they people don’t realize there are ways around. You just have to be creative in how you do it. And you shared that very eloquently today. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. And let’s talk about Ezra Klein.
[00:26:57] Steve Fretzin: So New York Times. Podcast, I think he’s so smart and he does such a great job interviewing. Why is, do you feel the same about that or you have additional thoughts on it?
[00:27:07] Jonathan Baum: I appreciate, what I appreciate about his work in particular is the, is the breadth of the subjects he covers. Whether it’s quantum mechanics, which I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that podcast of his, but I just appreciate the kind of clarity that he brings to complex, you know, complex subjects, which for me is.
[00:27:25] Jonathan Baum: Is what I think the best that our intellect can do. Yeah.
[00:27:29] Steve Fretzin: Great at interviewing. I mean, that’s, I think that’s a big part of what I enjoy in a podcast is our people that are able to, you know, listen, I’m back in the Howard Stern days, and I know that there’s a lot of, you know, racy stuff involved with him, but if we get down to the bottom of it, Like who gets more out of people and learns about them and on a personal level than him and not many people.
[00:27:49] Jonathan Baum: I think it’s a, I mean, it’s a very hard skill and I’m always aware when it’s done poorly, you know, right. You know, where the interviewer just gets. You know too caught up in like sort of this fan girl fan guy thing But kind of go there what I don’t understand about client as recline is where does he get the time to do all the reading?
[00:28:10] Jonathan Baum: Because he’s so prepared.
[00:28:12] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if he has a team. We don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes I would love to think that it’s all him But at most I think most of these successful very successful podcasters just like with any Medium, they’re going to have a team of writers or a team of people helping assistant So again, I can’t say that but Hey, man, before we wrap up, I want to thank our sponsors, of course, Rankings.
[00:28:32] Steve Fretzin: io, helping law firms really take things to the next level as it relates to lead generation through SEO, pay per click, top level websites. Hey, everybody, check out the LawHer Podcast, committed to helping women get ahead in their legal careers. Amazing show. And of course, our Rainmakers Roundtable. If you are feeling like you’re on an island as an independent or whatever it might be, And you want to get into a room full of rainmaking, managing partners that can share best practices and challenges.
[00:29:00] Steve Fretzin: Please don’t be shy about reaching out to me at Steve at Fretzin. com to fly and see if a rainmaker round table is for you. And again, if you work for someone that is a rainmaker, make an intro, I’m happy to talk with that individual as well. Jonathan, if people want to get to know you better, if they want to reach out to you directly and look for, you know, And more advice, what’s the best ways for them to reach you?
[00:29:21] Steve Fretzin: I
[00:29:22] Jonathan Baum: think AvenueGuild. com is the best way to learn about what we’re talking about. It’s a business or a set of resources that I’ve established for people like me or people at any point in their career. And a few articles that I’ve published are there as well. The most recent on legal dive really goes to the very subject you and I have been talking about today.
[00:29:45] Jonathan Baum: Okay. Yeah. AvenueGuild. com would be a good entry
[00:29:48] Steve Fretzin: point. Awesome well really really fantastic i was excited about this interview in this conversation since we met a few weeks ago and what was your just real quick what was your favorite thing about italy.
[00:30:00] Jonathan Baum: Well certainly wasn’t being attacked by a sheepdog while i was cycling okay that’s i can do that i can see that.
[00:30:07] Jonathan Baum: But it was a family reunion, and so we were 21 in this huge house in Tuscany, and and my goals, particularly after I got hurt, was just to be with family for two weeks. And it was successful. The heat was beyond imagination. I’ve never been in 93 degree heat day after day. Wow, okay. But I learned, I learned how to siesta.
[00:30:29] Steve Fretzin: Which is okay. Yeah. Which I never thought I would do. I’m a big nap guy. If I have a chance to take a nap, man, I take, I jump all over naps.
[00:30:36] Jonathan Baum: The big champion of naps was Winston Churchill. Okay. I didn’t know
[00:30:41] Steve Fretzin: that. Okay. So we’re every afternoon, every afternoon he did the siesta during the
[00:30:45] Jonathan Baum: war.
[00:30:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Nice.
[00:30:47] Steve Fretzin: Nice. Well, listen, those things help. I do, if I can’t get a map, I do a nap. I do a little meditation too, for like 20 minutes. That sometimes helps me. It’s similar to an app. All right. Listen, man, thank you so much. I know we’re going to keep in touch. I would love to, you know you know, continue just getting to know you better as a person, as a business professional.
[00:31:04] Steve Fretzin: Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. I think this was excellent. Well, thank you for the opportunity, Steve. I appreciate it. Yeah. And we broke your podcast. Cherry is they say, I don’t know who says that. I would never say that other people, everybody else says, all right. Thank you, Jonathan.
[00:31:18] Steve Fretzin: Thank you everybody for spending time with Jonathan and I today on the, be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast, helping you to be that lawyer every single week, twice a week. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.
[00:31:33] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.