Judy Dang: Precision and Productivity, Not Perfectionism

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Judy Dang discuss:

  • Moving past the perils of perfectionism.
  • Embracing imperfection and being open to failures.
  • Findings from Judy’s upcoming book, Perfect Enough.
  • Getting comfortable with precision, not perfection.

Key Takeaways:

  • You are successful despite your perfectionism, not because of it.
  • Perfectionists tend to be more motivated and engaged at work, however, the disadvantages far outweigh those positives – burnout, anxiety, and depression among them.
  • There is a difference between healthy striving and perfectionism.
  • Most of the tasks you do can be judged by pass or fail, rather than a specific grade. Not everything needs to be done to absolute perfection.

“Perfectionism is rooted in a fear, failure, and feelings of inadequacy.” —  Judy Dang

Connect with Judy Dang: 

Website: https://avidatwork.com/

Book: https://avidatwork.com/book/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/judydang/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD63K-Jy8ZeKOd0pJSZraKQ

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/judydangsf

Thank you to our Sponsors!

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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

perfectionist, perfectionism, people, attorney, book, lawyer, perfect, steve, judy, business, grammatical error, person, client, feeling, helping, precision, successful, cutest cat, thought, legalese

SPEAKERS

Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Narrator, Jordan Ostroff, Steve Fretzin, Judy Dang

 

Judy Dang  [00:00]

perfectionism is rooted in fear, failure, feeling adequacy, and feeling like, if I achieve, then I’ll be a worthy person.

 

Narrator  [00:16]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:39]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you are having a wonderful day. Man. I’m loaded up today. I got meetings this morning meetings this afternoon. I’m going to appear on a podcast. I’m doing a podcast I got Judy hanging out with me today and introduce her in a minute. But listen, it’s all about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. And if you’re wondering, what does Fretzin do, guess what, we only do two things. We do advanced coaching and training for highly ambitious attorneys that want to go back to school, if you will, to learn how to be an A Business Development assassin. And once they go through the program, you should never need it again. You’re going to learn it all you’re going to internalize it. And then that’s how we turn out amazing rainmakers. The other thing is the peer advisory groups, the roundtables if you’re already killing it as a business developer or a marketer, and you want to collaborate and work in a confidential environment with other successful attorneys, check out our peer advisory groups. We’re running five of those, we’re gonna get to six by the end of the year. And these are all fantastic groups. But enough about my stuff. Let me take a moment to thank the sponsors legalese, marketing and money. Penny more about them soon. They’re both awesome. And I do want to just introduce Judy. Dang, thanks for being here. Judy. How are you? Oh, happy

 

Judy Dang  [01:51]

to be here, Steve.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:53]

Yeah, happy to have you. And let’s start off with your quote of the show, which may be one of the funnier quotes that someone has sent me. It’s half ass is better than no ass, which is great. So I think my father used to say that to me, like you’re all you’re doing it half assed, like that was a I don’t know if that’s an old fashioned saying, But why did you submit that quote?

 

Judy Dang  [02:16]

That quote, sums it up for me as a recovering perfectionist were to do everything 100% All the time. And it was exhausting.

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:25]

It was Yeah, it is it is and so it’s better to do something half assed than no acid all. That’s the gist. Okay. Perfectionist. Yes. Well, Judy, dang, you are the founder of avid at work. You’ve got a new book coming out called perfect enough. And just welcome to the show. I’m so happy. We had a great chat a few weeks ago, right? Yes, we did. It was really fun. It wasn’t the perfect call. But we agreed. That’s okay. So I worked in in Nice. Yeah, that’s right. I’m a quick study, apparently. Well, I’m so happy you’re here. And you know that my audience is sitting here wondering, okay, you’re so here’s someone that is going to talk about perfectionism. And and maybe that’s not a good thing. And maybe it is, but you will find out. What’s your background as a perfectionist? And how did that sort of help you work out this entire business and new book that you’ve got coming out and all that stuff?

 

Judy Dang  [03:19]

Last year 2021, I looked at my numbers in my business, and I wasn’t meeting my revenue goals. beat myself up. You know, this productive productivity person can’t reach her goals. What does that say about me? That was really hard on myself. And working with a therapist, I uncovered that I was still in the grips of perfectionism. I thought 20 years of therapy, I mean, done over that. But no, it was hiding out. No.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:53]

It was hiding out in the subcategories just waiting to bite yet.

 

Judy Dang  [03:56]

There were still more lessons to learn. So I said, Alright, I’m gonna get to the bottom of this. I know what professionalism really is about. But there are gobs of books on perfectionism out there already. Already. But so I want to add a new perspective, which is, what does Asian culture have to do with it? Because it’s steeped in, you know, the tiger parenting phenomenon. And you know what an Asian f is, right? What’s an Asian F? And a minus? Fascinating enough. So things like that I learned to uncover like, what is it about Asian culture that creates this. There’s wonderful things about Asian culture, but when it comes to perfectionism, I want you to cover the dark side and help myself. So that’s how the book came about.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:49]

But my perfectionist lawyer father would have loved to see an A minus on my report card he was seeing a lot of sees he was seeing a sea of seeds. That’s what he was seeing pretty You see, so I got my act together I just Holy mackerel. But yeah, so not perfectionist, what’s the opposite of that right train wreck. So anyway, that was my scholastic career that I had back in the 80s. So, alright, so you, you have some kind of like life, sort of moments where you had to, like come to grips with your background, your past your, your, your existing future, kind of your current situation. And then, you know, trying to understand, you know, how perfectionism can really hurt someone in what they’re trying to accomplish in life.

 

Judy Dang  [05:32]

There are some myths about perfectionism. One is, well, I wouldn’t be as successful if I wasn’t a perfectionist. No one is even not aiming for perfect. That means I’m a slacker. Right? Like, I got to this place. I got to be this successful because of perfectionism. Why should I give it up? That’s a very common, very common misperception. When in fact, one is probably successful, despite perfectionism, and can you imagine how much more successful you would have been? If you had let go those those unrealistic standards, and horrible self criticism, horrible self criticism, huge amount of judgment, procrastination, all of those things, if you didn’t have those things, how much more how much more successful you you could be?

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:25]

Well in when we talk about marketing, and business development and growing a business, I think you’re onto something that perfectionism can really be problematic, because we end up doing nothing. And by we, I don’t mean me, I mean, other people, of course, but But you know, people end up doing nothing instead of doing something. And therefore, it’s like, they’re not going to post on LinkedIn. Because if it isn’t perfect, I don’t even want to bother. I don’t want to start it. I don’t want to get involved in it. So the end up doing nothing instead of something and it ends up being sort of a year after year after year situation where they don’t do anything repeatedly. Because it isn’t going to be perfect. They’d rather focus on their expertise in their profession, then attempt something that they’re not an expert in. does that play into the perfectionism space?

 

Judy Dang  [07:12]

Yes, because especially for attorneys, right? You go to school, you’re this expert in this field. And then you have to post on LinkedIn. It’s like, what? I’m gonna go to school for that. Yeah, I’m not gonna do it. Because it’s what’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:25]

the perfect post, there is no perfect post. I mean, I’m posting a meme of my cat looking around with a cute little, you know, lawyer thing that you know, that I came up with, and it did better than just about any other post I’ve ever had on Instagram. Okay, because people like looking at cute cats. I’ve got the cutest cat named Tootsie color tootsie pop, as they put it, but it’s not perfect. I could have sit in thought about the video and the lighting. And I could have sat and thought about the meme and what I was going to write, I jotted it down in five minutes, threw it out there. And we’re already like, well over 7000 views on Instagram, which my average, you know, isn’t, you know, maybe I’m happy if I get to 50 You know, with a typical like podcast. Listen, yeah, well, why cuz I’ve got the cutest cat in the whole world. So let’s throw it up on screen. But the point is, is like, Look, I’m not a perfectionist, but I’m definitely someone who doesn’t want to screw up. I don’t like grammatical errors. I don’t like I mean, I found a grammatical error on my website today. And I almost lost my mind. Because it’s been sitting there for who knows how long and how many people have seen it. I see someone else’s. There’s a friend of mine who posts intentionally with grammatical errors so that people will stop and see the errors, because it gets noticed more. I mean, holy crap, that that’s a real thing. That’s a real thing. I’m making that up. Like, because I tag I sent him an InMail. And I say, Hey, this is you’ve got a grammatical error. He goes, I know. It’s okay. See, he’s let it go. Let it go. Are you kidding me? You know, anyway, and I probably get that from my wife because she’s an English teacher. But alright. So is so is that really the issue is the perfectionist just can’t seem to get out of his or her own way to get things done, because they’ve got that, that sort of that high level mentality about, you know, if it isn’t done, right, it shouldn’t be done at all.

 

Judy Dang  [09:18]

Yes, there’s a lot of this. Perfectionism is rooted in fear, failure, feeling of inadequacy and feeling like if I achieve, then I’ll be a worthy person. Yeah, I’m busy. That means I’m important. Right, right. mistakes. Mistakes are no avoid mistakes at all costs. Not that’s why a lot of perfectionist hold back. Yeah, back and then for Asian American attorneys, who grew up with the values of you know, be submissive, respect hierarchy. Don’t speak until you’re all Your thoughts form, right that can really do that derail your career? Because if you’re an Asian American attorney, your clients probably want someone who’s going to fight for them and advocate them and speak up. Right. But you were taught to be submissive, so at work, could cause a lot of conflict. Yeah, I can see that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:20]

One of the things that’s similar to that is, and this isn’t me, I don’t this is an American term or not, but Amira analysis by paralysis, you’ve heard that before. And I think that’s another way of saying perfectionism to get nothing done. It’s like it, you know. So I, what I’m, what I’m doing is I’m having lawyers, like, for example, write a business development plan. So I’ll explain to them how to do it, walk them through, we’ll create it together. And then I give them homework and based on, you know, maybe how perfectionist they are, or how, you know, if they’re an IP attorney versus versus a personal injury attorney, very different type of personalities and different types of behavior styles. You know, one is going to knock it out in an hour, the other might take four hours, and then email me and say, Steve, I’ve got, you know, I’ve got half of it done. I just before I even go further, I can you look at it for me, and I’m happy to do that. But you could see the difference in the brains of different types of attorneys based on how quickly and easily and comfortably they get something done, like an assignment that is not in their wheelhouse.

 

Judy Dang  [11:22]

Sure. And they, they might be operating with the subconscious belief that I have to hit it out of the park. First out. Yeah, I have to hit it out of the park, the first draft of the, you know, your business development plan. Yeah. So.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:39]

So I think what we’re saying, is that being perfect, maybe there’s some advantages, and you can share what those advantages are. And then there’s obviously a number of disadvantages. So let’s what are some advantages to being perfect or near perfect? And then what are the big disadvantage that your book is about and that we can get into?

 

Judy Dang  [11:55]

Well, studies have shown that perfectionist are more motivated at work, they tend longer hours, and they can be more engaged at work. Those are some benefits for a firm. But the flipside is, the disadvantages far outweigh that stress, burnout, anxiety, depression, those are huge prices to pay huge prices to pay. Yeah. And so is it also

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:26]

possible that someone that is a perfectionist would spend more time on a particular matter? So one person, you know, obviously, you want to represent your clients with with rigor, and you want to make sure that things are done accurately. But someone might go over something two or three times when it was done right the first time just because they, they just, they can’t stop until they know it’s perfect that I’ve looked at it reviewed it two or three times or rewritten it nine times after might have been okay after the first.

 

Judy Dang  [12:53]

Right. And it’s maybe part of their company culture. You know, if you work for a perfectionist boss, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. One of my interviewees. She’s a fraud and corruption attorney. She says in her firm, great. In the beginning, she worked in China and semi colons, semi colons were really important in that firm. She was like, who hadn’t shouldn’t be paying me $800 To fix the semi colons. Yeah. Oh,

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:26]

and semicolon. Yes. semicolons are very misunderstood. And in the context of writing, I sometimes struggle like I’ll think there should be a semicolon here and I have to run it by my editor and get her approval or talk to my wife who’s mentioned English teacher like she’s, oh my god, you end a sentence in a preposition. I can just see her whole face change. Oh, yeah.

 

Judy Dang  [13:47]

It’d be funny. Have you did do that what your friend did, which

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:50]

is intentionally put, oh, yeah, that would drive her nuts. If I did. That’s not bad. I could get into trouble that way. All right, let’s not do that. So now that I’m thinking forward about it.

 

Jordan Ostroff  [14:00]

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Steve Fretzin  [14:22]

Hey, stop. Tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms

 

Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [14:26]

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Steve Fretzin  [14:39]

I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?

 

Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [14:46]

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Steve Fretzin  [15:00]

Very cool. Thanks. In writing this book, and I think you said it’s coming out in September. Is that still the target date? That’s okay. And in doing so, you have compiled a number, a lot of research, you’ve interviewed a lot of different people, including lawyers, what are like the top three findings from the book that you could share with my audience that would give them some like, oh, okay, now that’s there. I hadn’t thought of that before.

 

Judy Dang  [15:24]

There’s a difference between healthy striving and perfectionism. In the book I talked about, I’m not saying that we should lower our standards, right? You don’t want your surgeon to lower her standards right. Now, it’s not about lowering standards is about choosing intentionally. Strict healthy striving means I want to do well for for the sake of doing well, not to meet a feeling of unworthiness. That’s a big difference. The difference between healthy striving versus perfectionism. One, two, there’s a difference between precision versus perfect. People get that confused, like plane crashes, medical errors. Were human. Yes, we want precision. Don’t confuse it with perfect. Big difference between person

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:20]

would take that a step further. So people might hear that and go, they sound very similar precision and perfectionism. What’s the diff? What’s the difference there?

 

Judy Dang  [16:30]

So if I have a checklist, a pilot, I have a checklist of all the things I need to do. Yes, there’s a checklist, but I’m human. I’m not, I’m probably not gonna be perfect. But at least there’s a checklist for being precise.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:43]

Right? So things can go down and you your precision helps you avoid the disaster. But being perfect isn’t necessarily going to make it any better when things you know, out of your control. kind of come into your space.

 

Judy Dang  [16:57]

Exactly. Okay. Got it. The third thing is, there’s a section in the book about how you can help if you have a perfectionist in your life, and how to talk to that person about getting support or raising awareness, because some people might not even know that, you know, the professions. One interior, interviewee said that this is just the way I live, you know, like, I didn’t even know this, this was a thing. So raising awareness, with people who might be perfectionist is very important, because they might not even know. So how do you

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:37]

address so I have a perfectionist client who’s not getting things done, who’s, you know, taking extra time billing hours that maybe aren’t as necessary and needs to really build a book? How do I have that conversation? So let’s pretend let’s roleplay so I’m, I’m that perfectionist lawyer? You’re you. Okay. How do we how do we engage in this conversation? You’re not getting back from me the homework that I was supposed to get

 

Judy Dang  [18:04]

you? Yes. Steve, this is what I say to you, Steve. I noticed you like to leave no stone unturned. And, and last week, you turned in the brief late. Can we talk about that? Sure. What do you have in mind? You like things precise. And you were late, helped me understand what you were thinking.

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:33]

I mean, I was taught to do it, you know, do it right the first time or if not, you know, trust, but verify and make sure that you get a second set of eyes on it. Sometimes I have to do something two or three times, just to make sure it gets done, right. I know, for me, I never want to turn in anything to anybody or have any chance of making a mistake. So I always I always kind of review things over and over again. So sometimes they come in late, but they get done.

 

Judy Dang  [18:59]

Okay, well, there’s a cost. There’s a cost to you and the firm when you’re late. Okay, what’s the cost?

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:07]

$27? I don’t think I’ve seen and scene. Okay, so the idea. The idea is we have to we have to get that open conversation on the table. Right? Yeah.

 

Judy Dang  [19:19]

And be specific, be super precise and specific about that thing. Right. Right. Being late with the brief.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:28]

Okay. But is it mostly about getting the person to

 

Judy Dang  [19:32]

maybe acknowledge that,

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:36]

that there are some issues with that perfectionist mindset or with when things come in late? How does that impact a client and how does that impact the team?

 

Judy Dang  [19:45]

Right? Because they’re only seeing like, I want to do it right. I am a conscientious person but they don’t see the impact.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:53]

Yeah, the backlog of other matters and files and the fact that they’re, you know, some people are on hold you Don’t they get it done? Okay. They’re so

 

Judy Dang  [20:02]

focused on death. Yeah. It was raising their awareness.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:06]

Yeah, raising their awareness and, and had just hashing it out. And maybe there’s some additional support. I mean, what does someone do though, other than eventually buying your book or talking with you? What are a couple of ways that someone that’s listening to this that feels like they’re more in the perfectionist camp than the in perfectionist camp? What are two or three things that they can do to let go a little more to start to get comfortable with precision versus perfect?

 

Judy Dang  [20:36]

One way is to ask yourself, when you’re starting a project, looking at a task, anything, ask, Am I going for a grade or pass fail? Am I going for a grade with this? Or can I go pass fail? Okay, right. Chances are 80% of the things you do probably could go for pass fail, right? Just knock it out. Yeah, most. So. First, ask yourself. You’re spending too much time on something obsessing about something. Just check in. Okay, I’m trying to go Am I trying to go for grid here? Okay, do it pass fail? Okay. That’s one. Second is, if I do a pass fail, what’s the worst that can happen?

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:22]

Yeah, what’s the worst case scenario? Is it really that bad? Yeah.

 

Judy Dang  [21:25]

Is it really that bad? And do I have the resources to deal with that?

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:30]

I mean, if it’s going to be if it’s going to be malpractice, right? That’s not pass fail. Right? Right. If there’s something that needs to get done and done, right, that’s going for the grade. I mean, you want the right argument, you want the right language, you want to make sure that it gets your client to be happy. And then there’s other things that you do during your day that aren’t quite as important or not quite as critical that maybe those so maybe is it maybe putting things into different buckets, like just maybe everything that comes into your life, you have to kind of say, this is something where me being a perfectionist is going to really add value. And this side is it’s really not, it’s only going to hurt the cause. And so maybe I need to look at it a little differently. So it’s not just a one size fits all. I don’t know how someone that’s a perfectionist does that like how, how they can get their mind around what I just said, because I think I just came up with something pretty obvious, but unclear, but maybe that would be hard for someone that has that mental block to buy

 

Judy Dang  [22:27]

into it. Right. But if they think that I’ve been successful, I’ve been successful my entire life. I’m not going to stop it, then yeah, go, go do it. Yeah. But for those who reach a certain level in their career, and like, not getting promoted, or if something’s off in my life, or my relationships or at home are not so good. Then they have that awareness like hmm, you have to stop.

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:51]

Is it the same or different someone that is a perfectionist? And someone that is always right, that always has to be right. Is that also a perfectionist? Are those different people?

 

Judy Dang  [23:01]

I think they’re different. They’re different people. What do you think?

 

Steve Fretzin  [23:05]

I don’t know, it just popped into my head that people that are perfectionist, you know, they may feel that they’re right more than other people. And that’s why they’ve got to do things their way. And so I wonder if they’re the ones that have champ perfectionist. So this is the lead into the question that just came into my head, which is do perfectionist then struggle with relationships with clients relationships with internal folks at their company at their firm? Because they’re only seeing things one way? Yeah.

 

Judy Dang  [23:37]

So they’re different type forms of perfectionism. So if I think that I have to be perfect, that’s one. If I think that you have to be perfect. That’s another Yeah. Yeah. So the self imposed versus someone who thinks, you know, my team needs to be perfect. Very different, very different people, very type different types of people who think everyone else should be perfect. Pretty narcissistic, huh? Okay. I think so.

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:05]

And I don’t think I ever like said or felt like someone had to be perfect. But I will say, I kind of feel like people need to like, like, if I’m if I have an employee, like I used to have a bunch of employees, I always felt like they needed to be as independent, goal oriented and sort of focused as I was, like, if you’re working for me, that you should then take on the traits that I have, because I’m the leader of the company, and blah, blah, blah. And of course they weren’t, and then I get frustrated, and I get upset, and I’d have to have these tough conversations. So I don’t think that’s perfectionism. But I think that’s maybe just poor expectations on my part of like, what people are willing to do for the company and for their own careers. Yeah, and people are different than you. Yeah, I like I think people should be like me. No. I mean, obviously, I don’t think everybody should be like me to where I want everybody to be like me, and my wife certainly doesn’t want anyone to be like me. But I don’t know. I’m just wondering if that’s a part of perfectionism. Like if you see yourself a certain way And you expect people to be at least at your level, if they’re doing something that you’re doing or if they’re doing in your in your space, or they work at your company. So I could see like an attorney, that’s a high performing, functioning expert attorney that has an associate that’s been practicing for five or eight years that, hey, that attorney should be like me. And maybe the attorney isn’t because they’re just built differently, or they’re just not quite at the level but somebody but it could cause some some riff.

 

Judy Dang  [25:27]

Well, can the associate achieve the goals that the attorney defines? in whatever fashion? The associate seems appropriate? Right, as long as the goal is met? Doesn’t matter. If the associate is like, the attorney, as long?

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:45]

I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, it’s, it may just be about again, I think one thing that I’ve seen in in dealing with attorneys and cultures inside of law firms has been poorly set expectations. And, and and so I expected you to be here, but you’re here. You’re up here. I’m expecting I’m expecting up here. You’re coming in down there? Well, why? Well, because I didn’t we didn’t talk about it. We didn’t set expectations. We didn’t discuss the matter in a way that you know, that would get us both on the same page. I think that’s kind of a big part of it.

 

Judy Dang  [26:14]

Will Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And helping the associate define those expectations. Because, you know, the days of top down hierarchy are over, people want to be proactive in their own career developments, right. So for the attorney to invite the associate to create those expectations together. Whoo. Okay.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:36]

So yeah, just make more collaborative experience, right, and more likely

 

Judy Dang  [26:40]

to go along with a goal if I help set it. Right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:45]

Well, this has been interesting. I mean, we’ve never really had anyone on the show that a wrote a book on perfectionism and or really built kind of a business around it, how to not be perfect, and how to become maybe a better lawyer, better person, more successful person, because you’re not going after perfectionism you’re going after? And good enough and excellent. Okay, excellent. Or good enough, whatever. Either way, it’s, it’s gonna get you further than that. Maybe somebody that has to be perfect all the time.

 

Judy Dang  [27:13]

Absolutely. Go for excellence over perfection.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:17]

Okay, excellence in Judy, you you submitted a game changing book, which is the trusted advisor. So why did you submit that book? That sounds good?

 

Judy Dang  [27:26]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it is a collection of principles, guides for how to be a trusted consultant. That’s it. Okay,

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:37]

so people that pick that up, they’re gonna get what out of it just just like, tactical ways to do it.

 

Judy Dang  [27:43]

Yes. Yes. Extremely tactical, practical, easy to read. And the authors are hacker funny. They’re so hilarious in praise of falling down and mistakes. Okay. Yeah, I

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:55]

like that. I like humor in in books. I think I, I try to do that in my books. But it doesn’t always resonate as well as I’d like. But I am also not like slapstick, or anything. This is a serious, serious subject, you know, but if we can put a little levity into it, right, any type of writing, I think it just makes it more more interesting and enjoyable. The Trusted Advisor There you go. Trusted Advisor, Judy, dang, if people want to get in touch with you to learn more about avid work or your new book coming out? How do they reach you?

 

Judy Dang  [28:24]

Connect with me on LinkedIn? Yeah, LinkedIn, that’s the place. God dang God, Dan. All right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:31]

Well, thank you for being on the show and kind of talking about a subject that’s pretty new and interesting. You know, for my audience, you know, we could have five people talk about search engine optimization or time management, but you know, those some of those subjects are just getting beat to death. So this is a fresh, fresh, new topic. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom. I hope to keep in touch with

 

Judy Dang  [28:51]

you. Absolutely. It was so fun. Thank you Steve.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:54]

You’re very welcome. Didn’t the half hour fly? Just like that? That’s like that. It’s time flies when you have fun. Hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Judy and I today. Hopefully you got a couple of thoughts. You know, you may be a perfectionist, you may know someone that’s a perfectionist. Either way it sounds like nothing but a bag of trouble. So unless it’s working for you, and you’re getting everything out of it that you that you want, but otherwise, you might want to check her out on LinkedIn and again, you know, it’s something that can help you just continue to improve to be your best self to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.

 

Narrator  [29:35]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes Hi