Justin Neagle: Scaling Your Law Firm Through Processes

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Justin Neagle discuss:

  • Living a life of continuous improvement.
  • Scaling and improving through processes.
  • Documenting and delegating appropriately.
  • Missing processes in people, sales, organization, and technology.

Key Takeaways:

  • When you’re going through an identity shift, keep pushing forward. It will be strange at first, but things will settle when you push through your tipping point.
  • Being really smart does not mean you automatically have every skill set.
  • Without following a process (particularly in sales) you don’t know where it may have failed, or where you can improve.
  • Put the right people, in the right seat, and let them do the thing they’re good at. Giving them freedom and support, that is where scale will come.

“If you’re not trying to up-skill your people, you’re doing it wrong.” —  Justin Neagle

Get a free copy of Steve’s book “Sales-Free Selling” here: http://www.fretzin.com/sales-free-selling

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Episode References: 

About Justin Neagle: Say hello to Justin Neagle, the Chief Storyteller at Spot Migration and Co-host of the Building Scale Podcast!

Justin is one of the unstoppable leaders behind Spot Migration, a leading authority in the realm of IT and Cybersecurity Services. From strategy to implementation, Spot Migration’s core focus is to create peace of mind by making technology reliable for their clients. Check out their site for more information – spotmigration.com

Separately, Justin has the privilege of interviewing business leaders on his podcast, Building Scale. (buildingscale.net) With an in-depth understanding of storytelling and a purpose-driven mindset, he has been able to interview some amazing CEO and owners who have scaled their businesses with the use of three pillars of scaling – people, processes, and technology.

Justin is a leader who loves seeing companies grow and learn. He strongly believes that the secret recipe for successful businesses is a culture that values its people and has a meaningful purpose.

Justin has set an ambitious goal for himself. He’s on a mission to guide 1000 companies to find and use their unique core purposes. This way, they can have a positive impact on the world, and everyone involved can experience joy and fulfillment while increasing their earnings. Sounds pretty cool, right?

Connect with Justin Neagle:  

Website: https://spotmigration.com/

Email: [email protected]

Podcast: https://buildingscale.net/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justneagle/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/spot-migration/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/JustNeagle

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/justin.neagle/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/spotmigration

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hello, everyone. Have you ever wondered how much more business you could be generating each month? Well, you can take the Be That Lawyer challenge to find out. If I’m unable to help you find the money that’s been evading you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for the time invested together. Just go to fretson.

[00:00:15] Steve Fretzin: com to sign up. I’m challenging you. Now enjoy the show.

[00:00:23] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host. I’m your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:45] Steve Fretzin: Hi everybody, Steve Fretzin here with Be That Lawyer. I hope that you are well and having a lovely day today. Beautiful weather here in Chicago. Beautiful weather in Arizona, right Justin? Blue skies.

[00:00:55] Justin Neagle: Always, always


[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: skies. Always blue skies. And just a smidgen warm over the summer I heard. Uh, I

[00:01:02] Justin Neagle: hear, I hear, uh,

[00:01:03] Steve Fretzin: warmer than Chicago.

[00:01:04] Steve Fretzin: Did you cook an egg on the sidewalk or anything crazy? We,

[00:01:07] Justin Neagle: uh, we did not, but every year they always like post, like in the dashboard, somebody cracking an egg and I’m like, yeah, you know it what it is, you know, it is what it’s, we deal with it. Two months of super crazy heat. I still get to go to the pool.

[00:01:19] Justin Neagle: I’ll take it over the, the seven months of winter in

[00:01:21] Steve Fretzin: Chicago. I want to see someone slow cook a brisket or something like, uh, use, use the temperature of the weather as a slow cooker. Uh, anyway, we’re going to get back to Justin a moment. I want to thank you all for being here and listening to the show. Be That Lawyer.

[00:01:34] Steve Fretzin: Helping you to become confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. If you haven’t heard about Fretzin and what I do every day, really only focusing on two things. Uh, helping lawyers to develop their books of business pretty dramatically working with them over about a two year period via coaching and training, peer advisory.

[00:01:52] Steve Fretzin: And uh, I also stay with my clients for life and that’s something most people don’t know about. But when you invest in working with a coach like myself, and I don’t know if anybody else does this, Justin, but I actually stay with my clients as long as they’re in their law practice, as long as I’m in business.

[00:02:05] Steve Fretzin: I am on retainer, ready to go. And of course, we got those peer advisory round tables. So if you’re already killing it as an attorney, growing business, managing people, and you want to be in a room with other smart attorneys doing the same thing, please don’t hesitate to give me a shout out and reach out to me, steve at Fretzin.

[00:02:21] Steve Fretzin: com to talk about either of those programs. And that is all I have to say about that, as our good friend Forrest Gump used to say, I think. And I’m here with Justin Eagle today. He’s the chief storyteller at Spot Migration. And we’re going to start off with your quote of the show, Justin, which I love, which is an Albert Einstein special.

[00:02:41] Steve Fretzin: We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Really, that guy’s got a whole bunch of quotes out there. I think he’s a pretty smart guy, I think. That’s what I’ve heard about Albert Einstein, anyway.

[00:02:53] Justin Neagle: Yeah, some may even call him a genius that I would say. Some, some, some.

[00:02:56] Justin Neagle: Some. Yeah, I love Albert Einstein for tons of the quotes, uh, but this is really to the epitome of, like, change. And, like, how we grow and how we scale and all of that. So, I’m sure you see it all the time, Steve, about how do you get to a certain point. As a lawyer, I will what the next stage when you get to the next deal and you got to have a little bit different thinking and like that’s how you break through and just keep cracking the whip the same way every time just doesn’t work that way because, uh, bigger problems, you know, make different different solutions.

[00:03:23] Justin Neagle: But

[00:03:23] Steve Fretzin: I think one of the things that that separates us from the animals that do well is the idea that we have to keep evolving as it relates to what problems we’re seeing and what solutions are available. And I think if I was teaching the same exact thing to lawyers. 10 years ago that I am today, it may not be as valuable, right?

[00:03:42] Steve Fretzin: I have to keep improving and looking at a different, whether it’s technology, looking at different formats, looking at different strategies, different language to help them learn business development, marketing, personal branding, et cetera. And help them get ahead and, and, and I think things just, you can’t slow down and you got to stay on top of it.

[00:04:00] Steve Fretzin: It’s one of

[00:04:01] Justin Neagle: my family’s core values is continuous improvement. So it’s on the wall downstairs. So we, uh, we live it and breathe it. So yeah, I couldn’t

[00:04:09] Steve Fretzin: agree anymore. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And so give us a little background. You’re, you know, with your role, you know, leading up to your role as in spot migration, leading up also to that, be that lawyer tipping point.

[00:04:19] Steve Fretzin: I love to hit. Yeah, so, I

[00:04:21] Justin Neagle: started, uh, you know, went to Arizona State University, uh, you know, the greatest university in the country, obviously, uh, no offense to the Big Ten, uh, country that you’re in there, but, uh, you know, Pac 12, they won’t exist next year. It’s fine. Anyways, I went there, I got a criminal justice degree, because I was going to be super cop, came back in 2010 and realized nobody was hiring, uh, any, any type of law enforcement whatsoever.

[00:04:42] Justin Neagle: So I naturally got a job at a law firm as, uh, starting as a clerk, uh, and then worked my way into records and into conflict and into HR and then into marketing and business development. And, uh, it was great. It was the learning experience that I had was unbelievable. It, uh, changed how I looked at business.

[00:04:58] Justin Neagle: Cause again, I was, I was planning to be super cop. And then as I was going through the testing, uh, at Chicago, uh, PD, I remember asking like, Hey, is there a reason I wouldn’t just get hired? Cause I’m like, I’ve done this now. Like I’m done with all the tests. I’m just re upping my physical every three months.

[00:05:12] Justin Neagle: And one of the officers said, Oh yeah, no, there’s no rhyme or reason. It’s like monkeys throwing darts at a dartboard. There’s no reason why you would or wouldn’t. And I’m like, Oh great. And then this law firm that I was working at, who were really great to me, they actually cared about me. And then it kind of like shifted my whole projection of life.

[00:05:28] Justin Neagle: Yeah. Projection of life. That sounds almost right. And, uh, it, it changed the whole way I looked at business and then, uh, certainly law firms and just being in the nitty gritty and touching everything on the admin side of a law firm. Uh, it is, it’s just, I dunno, it’s revolutionary, uh, is what I would say because I, I totally didn’t think.

[00:05:47] Justin Neagle: That that would be the place I was in, but then once I started learning everything, I was like, Oh, wow, this is, there’s so much here. There’s so much that goes on across the board. Uh, and, um, and then dealing with attorneys is always fun as I’m sure you are aware. Oh,

[00:05:58] Steve Fretzin: yeah, there’s pesky attorneys who we have to deal with, but you know, it’s interesting people that are not lawyers and how, you know, I love hearing the stories of how they get pulled into the legal space, whether it’s, you know, working at a, as a clerk at a, at a law firm or.

[00:06:11] Steve Fretzin: You know, like I had my first client, my first lawyer client happened after the start of that recession in 2008. And I don’t think I ever would have got into legal if I didn’t have that one introduction to that lawyer who realized, you know, this was such a great fit and we did great together. And then, you know, kind of rinse and repeat on that.

[00:06:29] Steve Fretzin: Um, and all the things that we learn about, you know, not only the legal industry, but the internal workings of a law firm. And I think that’s a big part of what this shows about. And what we’re going to talk about today, Justin, is sort of a lead in is. You know, they’re not built to be, you know, business people.

[00:06:44] Steve Fretzin: They’re not taught that in law school. They’re not really learning that at the law firm level. And yet many of them have to take on these roles of the technology expert, the marketing expert, the manager, managing partner, the leader. So this show is really helping, helping to kind of solve that or at least give them some, some direction before we get in and jump into our main topic today, which I think is going to be about technology and processes and systems and things that lawyers really hate to talk about, but we’re going to push through anyway.

[00:07:10] Steve Fretzin: Was there also something in your life that, that sort of changed and dictated and helped you kind of be your best self?

[00:07:16] Justin Neagle: Oh, yeah. So two years ago I moved back to Arizona. Uh, and I, I’ve always had high self-esteem. Anybody that knows me knows that I love myself and life, and like, I’m just high energy. I think I’m amazing.

[00:07:26] Justin Neagle: My grandmother loved me way too much, so like, she made me believe I was the greatest human being ever, which I, I love her for. Uh, but then I went and I started checking the receipts on how great I was, and I’m like, I don’t have a whole bunch to show for this greatness that I, I’m showing to the world. Uh, so then I said, all right, I need to make this adjustment and change.

[00:07:43] Justin Neagle: So two years ago, I started like, all right, what’s my purpose? What am I doing? Like, you know, how, how could I be better? What is it? What, you know, what, what is everything in life that I think that I can accomplish? And yet I don’t have a whole bunch on the receipts yet. I need to do all that. So currently writing a book.

[00:07:57] Justin Neagle: Uh, multiple businesses a part of, a podcast that is super exciting and fun, a wonderful wife and son that seem to like me a whole bunch, so that’s good, and yeah, so it kind of just changed everything for me, obviously a change of scenery always helps. Uh, and I think when you talk about identity shift, because that’s effectively what this is, uh, they’re difficult.

[00:08:17] Justin Neagle: So anybody that’s going through a change, if it’s because of a good thing or a bad thing that happened in life, or you just came to a realization, just keep going. Keep pushing because you’re totally on the right path, even if it’s not the thing that seems as easy or, uh, right at some times, but you’re on the right path.

[00:08:33] Justin Neagle: So keep it, keep it going.

[00:08:34] Steve Fretzin: Now, that’s really, really Encouraging, inspiring, and all that. And I think we all have these turning points in our life, whether we hit a high point or a low point where, you know, we need to start making some, some changes. And you know, I, one of the things I love is hearing lawyer stories about, you know, things that, that, you know, they might be doing fine as a lawyer, they might be even having some business, but when we dig down deep, there’s something missing.

[00:08:59] Steve Fretzin: And I love to find out what that is. And I love to then convert that into action, convert that into change. Um, and one thing that I know is really a challenge for lawyers is scaling and improving through processes. And generally attorneys fail when it comes to, to having processes, learning processes, executing processes.

[00:09:20] Steve Fretzin: What’s your experience on why that is?

[00:09:23] Justin Neagle: So I, I think when you have people that are really smart about one thing, right? So they, they’re extraordinarily smart when it comes to law. Like it’s like, no question about it. You have a degree that shows it, but you also have the experience that shows it, especially if you’ve been around for a while.

[00:09:35] Justin Neagle: So like, there’s this thing of like, you are extraordinarily smart in this one aspect of your business, which is the deliverable. That doesn’t inherently mean that you’re going to be good at everything else because you’ve not certainly put the amount of time into it, but it’s a, it’s like this. This false thought in your brain that you’re like, well, I’m really smart because you are really smart, but that means you’re really smart in one place.

[00:09:54] Justin Neagle: I think there’s probably another Albert Einstein quote here that says something like if we judged everybody on how well they can climb a tree, we’d think fish are useless or something like that. It’s something I butchered the quote, but you get the concept. Um, but that’s the whole point, right? It’s like a fish or an elephant can’t climb a tree.

[00:10:09] Justin Neagle: So there, does that mean that they’re useless or dumb? No, they just have different skills. Um, so when you think of process, uh, and you think of like, how do I build a business or how do I even build my book of business and business development? Right. Those are different skills than being able to, to write an amazing contract or.

[00:10:25] Justin Neagle: litigate the hell out of something, right? Those are just different skill sets. And I think that it’s a thing that if you don’t practice, you don’t try, you don’t like, go and like, try to get more information about it, don’t get a coach, don’t get, you know, some leadership training and things like that, it becomes really hard.

[00:10:38] Justin Neagle: Like it’s just, it’s one of those things that I think is missed. And we don’t, you know, it’s not being thought through because, again, you’re really smart on this other thing. So you’re just kind of saying, Oh, I’m, I’m smart. So I, you know, because I’m smart, I’ll be able to mail this one in and I’ll get it right.

[00:10:53] Justin Neagle: But it’s

[00:10:53] Steve Fretzin: totally not the case. I feel like it’s a combination of like a do it yourself mentality. Lawyers definitely have that. You know, I’m, like you said, I’m a smart person. I can figure this out. And again, it’s, it’s, it’s so much, I, I just posted something on LinkedIn. Would you give up 10 for two? And what I meant was that like, could, would you give up 10 years of trying and, and failing at something for two years to get it right?

[00:11:16] Steve Fretzin: I think that’s what we’re talking about is like learning processes and executing and getting, either getting help or, or, or finding a software or something, some solution where you can put something in place that’s repetitive, that is taking something off your plate or something that’s making something that’s repetitive, not.

[00:11:33] Steve Fretzin: New every time you get it, uh, like, like, like hiring and bringing in a new attorney. Oh, now I have to train this person. Well, not if you have processes in place, if you have processes in place, then it’s the same training every time. And you’ve got a lot of it automated or whatever versus having to start a new, every time.

[00:11:50] Steve Fretzin: So I think that’s really what we’re, we’re talking about here. I think I said two things and then I only did one. Is it do it yourself and then failure to delegate, which is probably, you know, aligned right with it.

[00:12:00] Justin Neagle: It’s what to me, it’s wild. The delegation thing with attorneys because they delegate some things amazing.

[00:12:06] Justin Neagle: Like they’re really great at delegating like, Oh, I don’t want to print things. Okay, great. You are amazing at printing things and maybe even sometimes too much where it’s like. That’s a two page document. You could have printed that thing. Come on now, let’s, let’s get it together. Like you’ve delegated so much in certain areas, but then other places where it’s like, Hey, I need somebody to build out a marketing plan, or I need somebody to like, you know, put together a technology system.

[00:12:27] Justin Neagle: That’s going to, you know, how is all of our contacts? Doesn’t like that. You don’t delegate enough that we’re like, Hey, we need to, we need to document our processes. Hey, new to your point, right? We hired a new attorney. Well, it’s a process. Like, training’s a process. That’s all it is. Just document it, and then you move along.

[00:12:43] Justin Neagle: And the idea that, hey, just delegate that part to somebody, to somebody smart that you’ve hired, and then you can tweak it as it goes, and that’s how it works. But like, delegate that part, because then you’ll be so much further along, especially for a managing partner or somebody that’s leading a practice.

[00:12:57] Justin Neagle: Like, that’s huge. Like, that’s massive. Time saving in the

[00:13:00] Steve Fretzin: delegation part. Well, what would you say that are like the top two or three things that lawyers don’t delegate or don’t develop processes for that they should like, what are just like the things that you hear every day?

[00:13:12] Justin Neagle: So I think outreach, that’s a big one.

[00:13:14] Justin Neagle: You obviously have rainmakers that just do this, do this naturally. Like, they’re just like, they just have this feeling, but you want to document that and actually make a process out of it because people underneath you that you’re, you’re coming up like associates that you have that are coming up underneath you, you want them to do the same thing you’re doing.

[00:13:28] Justin Neagle: Like you want them to be able to also become brain makers. For your, you know, your firm or, you know, as in like cross selling and things like that. So the more that they can do that, it’ll benefit you too. Like that’s a big one. So when it comes to business development, you have to have through process to that as well as marketing, right?

[00:13:43] Justin Neagle: So like, this is the other side of business developments and up sales side, but like the, Hey, like We need to have real processes. Like, what’s our story? Like, what are those things? Why aren’t we have something built that we’re not just shooting out random LinkedIn posts or random, like, Hey, we’ll be in an ad in a random magazine for, for an association that we generally don’t attend.

[00:14:00] Justin Neagle: Like things like that, where it doesn’t make any sense. Like have a process, like think through it strategically and then build a structure

[00:14:05] Steve Fretzin: around. There’s a term for that. I’ve heard multiple times called random acts of marketing. And that’s what, that’s what’s going on, you know, today I’m going to do this, tomorrow I’m going to do that.

[00:14:13] Steve Fretzin: And then just, you know, here’s this shiny, you know, shiny penny too, right? I think it’s a shiny penny. I’m going to come pick it up. Um, but I think that’s, we’re having a plan, you know, like I’m, I’m a big proponent of planning and processes and what that leads to in my, in my, my world is what I call performance improvement.

[00:14:31] Steve Fretzin: So if I’m giving you a process and let’s say you’re a two out of 10 on using it. And we figure out where you’re not using it well and we, we talk about it and we fix it and we delegate it, whatever. And we get you up to five. Well, now you’re five out of 10 in that process, right? And then we see what’s not working there and we can keep moving up.

[00:14:48] Steve Fretzin: So lawyers, for example, on business development, they’re learning my sales free selling process and they start off as like a one or two out of 10. And then just over the time of, of making mistakes of trial and, you know, not trial and error so much as. Doing it and making, you know, just like not asking a question they should have asked or not, uh, having a next step or something that, that I would immediately go, Oh, that’s not good, but it’s that, it’s that like mistake and improve, mistake and improve, fail and improve, whatever.

[00:15:14] Steve Fretzin: And that’s where processes can really be, you know, get, you know, get, get like tickets in the next level. Oh,

[00:15:20] Justin Neagle: a thousand percent. If you don’t have, uh, a true like sales process, that’s documented, like it, it, it is you just essentially shooting from the hip all the time, which you’ll again, people that are super.

[00:15:31] Justin Neagle: charismatic and make it happen. And if you’re following like a system more than what you have, and you’re saying like, Hey, this is the system, like, this is how you go about it. And this is how you think about it. And this is how you improve. And this is where it failed, because that’s the other part. It’s like, where did it fail?

[00:15:44] Justin Neagle: You don’t really know where it fails if you don’t have a process that you’re following, because it could have been like, actually, this was dead in the water in the beginning. Like, and we just kept going down and we wasted how many hours trying to chase this client or this prospect, and it was never going to happen.

[00:15:57] Justin Neagle: And we would just followed the process we could have. Got them off the plate, got a different prospect in there that we could have closed and done that. But if you don’t have anything that’s Real process, you’ll never know where it failed or where you can improve.

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[00:17:58] Steve Fretzin: out. And what’s, what’s a missing, maybe technology, a process for technology. So outreach being one, you know, having a sales process, a hundred percent agree on that. What would be one that, that would be maybe more around organization, organizational process?

[00:18:13] Justin Neagle: So, uh, I think doc, like most people have a document management system. So that’s generally, they’re, they’re kind of run through Outlook at this point, generally how they work. But, like, if you’re not actually utilizing that, and everybody in your company isn’t naming things the same way, this is easy. Right, this is just like, if you had a process that trained them, hey, this is our naming convention, this is how we name things.

[00:18:35] Justin Neagle: These are folders they go in, this is how it makes sense. And everybody’s the same. Right, you can’t have, well, somebody thinks this way, somebody thinks that way, somebody thinks this way, because then it makes it too hard for anyone that’s working with you and collaborating, because it’s like, well, they put this in this folder, and they put that in that folder.

[00:18:50] Justin Neagle: No, you have to have a system that is All together and the technology is there and it will help you get there, but it’s still process, right? The process has to be there. Technology is just a magnifier. So if you have a great process, you’re gonna have a great magnifying, right? You’re gonna, you’re gonna buy back the productivity you need.

[00:19:07] Justin Neagle: But if you have a bad process, The technology is only going to hurt the productivity because now you’re just redoing everything over and over again. And I think that that’s where, like, having actual change management when it comes to technology, whatever it is, if it’s a CRM, if it’s a case management system, whatever, like, those are the things that you need to actually put time and effort in, and it has to come from leadership up top.

[00:19:29] Justin Neagle: So if that’s you as an attorney that feeds it down to your assistant or your paralegals, whoever it is, or if it’s the managing partner and you have to feed it down to everybody in the firm, You have to, you as a leader of a company have to be at the forefront. You can’t just say, Oh, they’re going to take care of the technology thing for me.

[00:19:44] Justin Neagle: No, because then it will never work. They’ll never buy into it. You’ll never use it properly. So then it’ll inherently just all break. That’s a big piece with technology. If it’s not actually, you don’t actually invest in it properly. And if you don’t actually take the time to make sure that change management happens, it almost always falls on its face.

[00:20:02] Steve Fretzin: And I mean, just, just to put it out there, we’ll get into this in a moment, but like, learn from people smarter than you in their area. So like, I’m not an expert on scaling, but I am interested in scaling. I’m interested in hearing about it. And so like, I, you know, Simon Sinek and Gary Vee and, you know, Alex Hermosi and all these names I throw out where.

[00:20:23] Steve Fretzin: You just have to, you have to like surround yourself and pay attention to the people that are experts in an area. Just like if I was a lawyer and I wanted to learn about, you know, like high end divorce and celebrity divorce, you know, Chris Melcher is a client of mine and he’s a top LA divorce attorney, you know, handling celebrity divorce and billionaire divorces.

[00:20:40] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, if I’m wanting to get into that space and work on high end, I’d be listening to him and following him on Twitter and doing all that. So. Um, you have the luxury of, of having a podcast called building scale, and you’ve had the opportunity to interview CEOs of nine figure companies. And what have you learned?

[00:21:00] Steve Fretzin: What are you learning that you can share with us? That’s helpful to the lawyers that are, that, that are interested in processes and scaling and things that could improve their lives. Yeah,

[00:21:09] Justin Neagle: for sure. So the belief for us for building scale, any, any kind of scalability is going to be people process technology.

[00:21:16] Justin Neagle: Those are going to be your three pillars of scalability. Um, so that’s the, that’s the only way you can, you can take whatever you got and take it to them. Like that’s, that’s how it is. And if you think, Hey, I’m doing, I’m really profitable and things are good and maybe you don’t want to grow and like, that’s fine.

[00:21:29] Justin Neagle: And you’re happy where you’re at. But anytime that you can put those three in place, that’s how you get massive scale. Like that, that’s the only way. And what I would say is, the bigger the company, almost always, It’s all about people. It’s like, I need to make my people great. I need to do whatever for my people.

[00:21:45] Justin Neagle: It is baffling how, uh, much that is the, the every time I, I always ask them to, Hey, what, in regards to like, what do you think is most important? It’s always people. And it’s like, I do everything I possibly can to put my people in the best position because they’ve realized, oh yeah, when you got great people, right people, the right seat.

[00:22:02] Justin Neagle: And then you just let them do the thing they’re really great at. Uh, so if that is another lawyer that does a different type of law, if it’s your paralegals, if it’s your office manager, or if it’s, you know, your CFO or your, you know, your head of accounting, if you let them do the thing they’re good at and don’t try to, like, get in there and nip it, and you give them the freedom and you give them the support that they need, that’s where the scale comes.

[00:22:23] Justin Neagle: Like, that is always what happens because People will one feel appreciated and then their productivity just goes through the roof and then they’ll stay longer. So you’re not trying to have to rehire, retrain, do all these things like it’s just making sure that you have the right people. And that goes the other way too.

[00:22:39] Justin Neagle: If you don’t have the right people, well, that’s a conversation that you probably need to have with whoever those

[00:22:43] Steve Fretzin: are. And just in the missing, the missing piece for many attorneys and law firms, I think is let’s say, even if they hire a recruiter to find somebody. They don’t have a process for, uh, hiring, uh, for interviewing and hiring, or if they do, they haven’t changed it in 10 years, or they don’t have a process for onboarding.

[00:23:00] Steve Fretzin: They go, there’s your desk and your phone, you know, good luck in your new job, right? Like what’s the onboarding? How is that person getting acclimated and set up? How are they getting developed, right? There’s no development program at the firm. So it’s like all these pieces that lead back to process. So you mentioned people, you may have the best person you’d ever imagine having and lose them and lose that huge potential upside and investment because of lack of process.

[00:23:25] Justin Neagle: Thousand percent. If you’re not trying to upskill everybody in your firm or everybody that you’re connected to, um, if it’s your practice or whoever, you’re, you’re missing the boat. Like you’re totally missing it because that is inherently where it’s not only going to make them better, it’s going to make you better because another Albert Einstein, uh, you don’t really know something until you can explain it simply and teaching others is how you learn things better.

[00:23:47] Justin Neagle: Like those are going to be ways to say, Oh wow, I didn’t actually think of something a certain way. And then you now have that new knowledge to then be able to. Implement more into your process and really build that out. I couldn’t agree anymore. If you’re not trying to upskill your people, you’re, you’re, you’re doing it wrong.

[00:24:03] Justin Neagle: That’s the easiest way to put

[00:24:05] Steve Fretzin: it right out, right out. And what are, and what, so let’s, so let’s, all right, so you interviewed all these nine figure CEOs, you’ve got all this great insight. One of the things that lawyers are looking for is they’re looking for easy technology. To develop that, that can, that can be a part of their process or help them create process.

[00:24:23] Steve Fretzin: What are some, some, you know, legal technologies that maybe lawyers don’t know about, but should, or they have to have, and I know we already talked about like a document management. So I think going beyond that, things that might help them be more efficient. That’s, that’s, I think a lot of like what a lot of what I try to do is find efficiencies that I can share with my lawyer clients.

[00:24:44] Justin Neagle: I think, uh, some form of contact management, the CRM of some store and it. Again, it doesn’t inherently have to be, Oh, we only do, uh, legal. Now there is inherent benefits that go to that because a lot of built in things, but having some form of ability, that’s not just your outlook contact. Uh, to be able to interact with the people that you clients or prospects or, you know, suspects that you don’t quite know about, like having that in place and then everybody using it.

[00:25:12] Justin Neagle: I think that that’s a huge one and I would assume you would agree with me to some degree. Yeah, I mean, I’m going

[00:25:17] Steve Fretzin: businesses. I mean, see a CRM by relationship management tool. Everybody is. Is so valuable and useful. And there’s a number of really good ones. Um, law Maddox has a really good one add on. And then, and I use that by the way, and love law Maddox.

[00:25:33] Steve Fretzin: I’m not even a lawyer. And then, um, David Ackert, uh, my friend, David Ackert, he’s got, you know, pipeline plus, and that’s specifically made for attorneys. The concern that attorneys have with CRMs, I think is that a. It’s going to have, you’re gonna have to like replicate. So I’m doing all this state, you know, document management and all this.

[00:25:51] Steve Fretzin: I’ve got all my contacts in Outlook and I’ve got, and then there’s another whole now set of things I have to insert and input and keep track of. And I think that. And there’s, and the other problem is there’s sometimes a lack of training and customization around CRMs. And I know there’s people that do that because, because, you know, legalese marketing, for example, helped customize lawmatics for me, train me.

[00:26:12] Steve Fretzin: Otherwise, I’m, I’m lost in the woods. I, I’m, I’ve been around CRMs for 20 years. I still hate them. And I still won’t use one unless it’s… Spoon, uh, uh, spoonfed me ’cause I’m like a little baby with them. I completely

[00:26:25] Justin Neagle: agree that if you take, um, some of the, like, Salesforce, and I’m not talking poorly about them, but if you took a big c r m like that, it is unbelievably overbearing.

[00:26:35] Justin Neagle: Yeah. Like, there’s no question about it. So it is finding one that that isn’t, you know, so like it’s, it does everything under the sun. I also think that like, ones that have training that comes with it, you have to do the training, you have to put in the work if you want the thing to work well, and back to change management, like, hey, you’re changing how you’re interacting with these contacts.

[00:26:54] Justin Neagle: Because of the backend system that you’re using, but it will, it will totally 10 X the way you were able to do this. Also the amount of AI that’s built into these systems at this point, like to make more customization that you’re not having to like surface through and surface through. It’s not the state that you can’t look up something and make sure that like little Sally’s birthday is here and we can, you know, make sure we send Chuck a great, you know, little thing about Sally’s birthday.

[00:27:18] Justin Neagle: That’s all great and grand. But there is so much advantage to utilizing the AI that’s already built in these systems. And we can talk more about AI to

[00:27:25] Steve Fretzin: another. Yeah. And I just want to mention, here’s a, here’s a really quick hack for lawyers that want technology, but aren’t technology savvy, which is a good percentage of the legal population and CRMs in particular, have your assistant, your executive assistant, your paralegal, learn it and become an expert at.

[00:27:45] Steve Fretzin: And not only the customization, but the training and let them work with you over three months or whatever timeframe it takes. And that way, you know, when you are trying to use it or you’re frustrated or you have your hiccups, you’ve got someone that’s, you know, an office away that can step in and help you help answer a question or get it back on track.

[00:28:05] Steve Fretzin: So don’t feel like you as the lawyer have to become an expert from day one. I think you can actually delegate that. Let someone else spend the time learning it and getting it up to speed and then work with you over a period of time to get you up to speed. So that’s maybe just a simple hack I just came up with.

[00:28:21] Steve Fretzin: So. You took the words

[00:28:22] Justin Neagle: out of my mouth. Oh, delegation earlier. Oh no, you’re good. You talk about delegation earlier. This is a great example of where you can delegate down because like entering in, you know, somebody’s addressed or else that’s not work you should be doing. I don’t, I never think that you should be doing that work.

[00:28:39] Justin Neagle: You should be billing and or trying to get new business like that. Those are the two big things you should always be doing. And I’m sure this is no surprise to your listeners. But like, so we’re talking about more administrative work. Yes. Like have your admin do it or have, you know, somebody that is a clerk do it.

[00:28:54] Justin Neagle: Even like you get, there’s so many people in your firm, your receptionist, if they’re not doing anything else, like there’s so many people in your firm that can help you do these things. And they’ll probably like it more than you’d think. And like, don’t get me wrong. It’s, it’s a little bit of a pain in the ass, but like they’ll like it because they’re now part of the process.

[00:29:08] Justin Neagle: They’re part of the journey. And that’s really cool for them because they’re building out something for you. That’s going to make the firm better or make your practice better. And that in that will benefit them because like you’ll see the value that they’ve added and like, you know, that that comes with monetary and other just upscaling benefits that they’ll kind of come come with that.

[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: I’m going to share my favorite technology tool and then I want you to share yours and then we’re going to wrap things up with our game changing podcast. I’m going to say. It’s, it’s a tie a little bit between my remarkable two, which, you know, I just can’t speak highly enough and I know I should have them as a sponsor, but the fact that I can handwrite every note about this podcast, put it into a folder, email it to myself.

[00:29:51] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I’m using this thing every, I have no paper anywhere. The tie for that would probably be my account with Acuity, which then gets funneled through Lawmatics. That’s my auto scheduler. So my podcasts get scheduled, my meetings get scheduled, my client meetings, everything is scheduled, and I don’t go back and forth on dates and times and all that jazz anymore.

[00:30:11] Steve Fretzin: So I’m going to give that, those are my two, which, what’s your one or two?

[00:30:15] Justin Neagle: All right. So, uh, I love the scheduling app. So, uh, downlay is, is one that we use, uh, which we love automation that goes into this, Oh, it’s it’s game changer. Talk about time changer, all those things. Love that. But then I have to stay because I’m totally a tech nerd.

[00:30:30] Justin Neagle: Uh, the Microsoft platform, the things that they are doing now is astronomical. Talk about development work. You talk about communication with teams, uh, full, I mean, think about anything that. Software is doing at this point, Microsoft is trying to take over the world. So, uh, if you are not, you just, you, you already are paying for the license.

[00:30:45] Justin Neagle: I know you’re already using Microsoft and outlook. Just start utilizing the like thousand other applications that are within it. You will be baffled how, how much stuff you can get done. A lot of, uh, automation is done straight. Straight through Microsoft at this point. Hey, you got an email. That PDF needs to be saved in this particular folder and this particular folder underneath this folder.

[00:31:05] Justin Neagle: Do you have a resource

[00:31:05] Steve Fretzin: for that, Justin? An article or something that you could point people and say, Hey, here are the top 10 ways to, by the way, I may just be giving you an idea for an article, you know, top 10 ways to utilize Microsoft’s, you know, all the, all the bells and whistles that they have.

[00:31:18] Justin Neagle: I’m not going to lie.

[00:31:19] Justin Neagle: I think I wrote this article, uh, probably about a year ago, so I will, uh, send it over to you. That’s not a

[00:31:23] Steve Fretzin: problem. Well, let’s, yeah, let’s get that. Let’s get, is that up somewhere? We can then, we’ll put it in the show notes today. People can, can just find it on the podcast. We’ll figure it

[00:31:30] Justin Neagle: out. Let me, we’ll figure it out.

[00:31:31] Justin Neagle: We will, I will find it and send it over to you, but yeah, automate using Microsoft automation. Wow. Ooh, my goodness. It’s wild. What

[00:31:38] Steve Fretzin: it can do. Awesome. Awesome. Hey man, let’s wrap things up with our game changing podcast. And in yours is called the daily stoic, and I’ve never heard that before, so I’m

[00:31:46] Justin Neagle: intrigued.

[00:31:47] Justin Neagle: Oh, so the Daily Stoic is Ryan Holiday. He’s the host of it. He’s also an author that’s written, I don’t know, 10 books, uh, effectively about Stoicism, uh, but it is more modern versions of it. So he talks about, uh, history, you know, historical figures and things like that. But the thing for me is, uh, Being able to, you know, find stillness, I know that ego is the enemy, like things like this that he just kind of pulls out of stoicism because like reading Marcus Aurelius, like, you know, meditations is a little much, like, I’m just going to be honest, but like when you can break that down into more simple forms and like simple concepts, huge, so it’s a mindset thing.

[00:32:22] Justin Neagle: I think mindset matters, uh, that when you get self right, Um, you know, everything else works better because self is the foundation for all the things your family, work, everything else that comes with it, leisure. If yourself is super strong as a structural foundation, which is what I get certainly from the Daily Stoic, that is where it all changed.

[00:32:41] Justin Neagle: Everything else changes. I would say the last two years, my life is 10x itself. Uh, in every possible way, lost weight, more ambitious, even more energy than I already had, which was already crazy amount. So it’s just hard to believe. Hard to believe. Yeah, I know. So, uh, that, so that’s what I would say. Day of the Stoke is, uh, It’s a pretty much an every week listen for me and it could be an everyday listen.

[00:33:04] Justin Neagle: Uh,

[00:33:04] Steve Fretzin: it’s that good. Okay, i’m gonna check it out for sure. I love, that’s one of the reasons I ask. It’s selfish, right? Like i’m selfishly interested in. Hearing what other people listening to so I can go check them out in a, as we wrap up today, I want to thank our wonderful sponsors overture dot law. If you’re looking at ethically fee share, we’ve got, get staffed up, uh, getting you those full time VAs is just, and I talk about delegation.

[00:33:26] Steve Fretzin: I mean, get a full time VA English speaking and, and just amazing for, I don’t know, half or third, the cost of, of a us based employee. And you don’t have to deal with the benefits and all the insurance and all that. And of course, get visible is just crushing it on the websites and the legal marketing for those who want to take things to another level from that standpoint, Justin, um, tell us about, you know, 30 seconds on spot migration and how people get in touch with you.

[00:33:52] Justin Neagle: Yeah, absolutely. So spot migration is a IT and cybersecurity company hosted out of Chicago. We can kind of help across the whole country because we’re, we’re a big deal and IT has done 99. 9 percent remotely. We are effectively trying to become the most trusted. Uh, IT and cyber company in the country.

[00:34:07] Justin Neagle: That is our 10 year target. So we’re really, really excited about that. And uh, you can get ahold of us at spotmigration. com. Uh, you can email me directly at justinn at spotmigration. com and please connect with me on LinkedIn because that is where I am the most. Social, and, uh, I just love to connect with people, happy to hop on a call any time, talk about this, talk about purpose, talk about, uh, IT and stuff, whatever you want, I’m always there for you, so, hit me up.

[00:34:34] Justin Neagle: You’re

[00:34:34] Steve Fretzin: prepared to nerd out with anybody. Thousand

[00:34:38] Justin Neagle: percent, I can talk about anything with anybody at any time, just bring it on, I’m like the guy with the sign, debate me, except I’m just more of like, hey, let’s just have fun.

[00:34:46] Steve Fretzin: It sounds like you’re a Chicago guy through and through, I know you’re out in Arizona, but you sound just like a Chicago guy.

[00:34:52] Justin Neagle: Oh yeah. No, a thousand percent. Still, still Chicago proud. So, uh, no

[00:34:56] Steve Fretzin: worries there. All right. Beautiful. All right. Well, thank you, Justin. I really appreciate you, you know, sharing your wisdom and your time on the show and really great stuff. So thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thank you, Steve. Yeah. And thank you everybody for spending time again on the Be That Lawyer podcast.

[00:35:09] Steve Fretzin: Uh, helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.

[00:35:21] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.

[00:35:43] Narrator: Bye. You’re up.