Karin Conroy: Starting with Strategy for Success

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Karin Conroy discuss:

  • Setting your pricing to attract the kind of clients you are wanting to work with.
  • Knowing where your strengths are and hiring for your weaknesses.
  • Having your own plan for your website that fits with your strategy.
  • Understanding your strategy to understand your budget.

Key Takeaways:

  • Start in the right way with your pricing and you won’t have to backtrack later and argue for what you are actually worth.
  • Don’t waste time and money doing the things that you can delegate to someone else for less of both.
  • Your website should match your firm. There is psychology that goes behind what the clients are seeing and what they are thinking about you and your legal practice.
  • You can’t set a budget without knowing what success means to you.

“Start with what success means to your firm, and then work backward from that – that’s strategy.” —  Karin Conroy

Connect with Karin Conroy:  

Website: https://conroycreativecounsel.com/

Podcast: https://counsel-cast.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karinconroy/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/karinconroy

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/conroycreativecounsel/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conroycreative/

Take Karin’s FREE Quiz here: https://conroycreativecounsel.com/marketing-budget-calculator/

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing: https://legaleasemarketing.com/

Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/

Practice Panther: https://www.practicepanther.com/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



website, people, clients, lawyer, positioning, marketing, book, strategy, firm, tipping point, budget, business, hear, talking, law firm, legal, aligned, person, plan, listen


Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Karin Conroy, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Karin Conroy  [00:00]

So start with what success means to your firm. And then you have to work backwards from that. So that’s that’s strategy.


Narrator  [00:13]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:35]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, the host as the announcer just mentioned, I am. Wow, I’m shot out of a cannon. But I will tell you that it’s only because my guest is so amazing. And we always have fun were together. It’s lots of laughs and a little bit of a love fest. But listen, that happens. Right? Right. Like



it is. I mean, you know, how could you not love all these conversations? Like, it’s such good value?


Steve Fretzin  [01:01]

I do enjoy the conversation. I mean, listen, that’s I get my you know, excitement, my juice, my squeeze out of the squeeze from these conversations, hearing from great professionals like you and I appreciate you being on the show. Before we get breezy with this conversation, which I know is going to happen. I just want to mention everybody. If you’re interested in learning more about Fretzin, you can check out my [email protected] you’re interested in the books I’ve written the most recent as an international best seller, legal business development isn’t rocket science available on Amazon. It’s a good deal, grab one support my son’s 529. That’s where that money’s going. All right. We all gotta say, what is college now? It’s got to be the 50 on the low end a year to add on the high and



the low. Yeah. I mean, that’s like a state school. I think it’s 50. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [01:47]

When I went it was like, maybe like three? No, oh, well, all in maybe seven? Maybe maybe eight or 10? I don’t know. Yeah. But my father saw that my father saw the fraternity house I was living he goes, I don’t want to pay for that. Popularity then, like paying for the you know, for the garbage house? I was. Yeah, yeah. That’s life. That’s life. So full transparency,



all of the proceeds from the book going to the 529. It’s


Steve Fretzin  [02:11]

going to the 529. And I need a lot of books to sell today. You know, what do you need? 80,000? A year? Yeah, it’s quite a few books. Yeah. Anyway, well, listen, I appreciate you, being on the show and glad to be here. encounter in the quote of the show, let’s jump into that is marketing is a contest for people’s attention. That’s the Seth Godin. Right?



That’s Godin. Yeah. He I know, we’re gonna talk about the book later, but there’s a great book, this is marketing, and he really just narrows down the definition of what is and isn’t marketing. And it’s a lot he, it’s when I went through that book, I read on a Kindle, and I highlighted probably half of every page. It was just, there’s just so much good stuff in there. But it’s it is a it’s a contest for people’s attention. But it’s also not just like, let’s throw stuff out there and see what sticks to the wall, you have to be doing better. And that’s another Seth Godin thing. So, you know, with with law firms and lawyers, you’re looking at how can you solve these people’s problems? But sometimes, like, if you’re an estate planner, it’s not they don’t see it as a plant a problem. It’s more some potential issue down the road. Yeah. So in terms, the way Seth Godin talks about it is, you know, how can you do better? How can you put don’t just throw out a whole bunch of content, don’t just write stuff for you know, that’s empty, find this problem that you can solve, try to solve it or do better, or, you know, kind of create more for that client? If that’s what if that’s what ends up having helping to solve it?


Steve Fretzin  [03:48]

Yeah, but I think lawyers give up on LinkedIn, social media network mean things where they’re not recognizing that and contest is, you know, that may be a little harsh or a little scary to think of it that way. But if I’m seeing a personal injury, Attorney out networking, and then I see them on a billboard, or then I see them in an ad, and then when something happens, that’s the that’s the contest. Right? Right. So if you’re not out there, than Where are you, you’re hiding behind your desk behind a computer screen, hoping that the phone’s gonna ring. Meanwhile, your competition is run in circles around you. And again, you may not see that today, but three 510 years, you’re not going to be as far ahead as they are.



Exactly. The two words that come up more often than anything else, when I’m having these conversations is patience and consistency. So you cannot open your doors today and throw out you know, 10 grand in pay per click and sit down at your desk and just think that the phone is going to start ringing. It’s just not how anything works in this world. And it would be kind of weird if it did I mean, think about How from the user side or the person who’s your potential client from their side, like you are injured or you needed an attorney for whatever reason. And all of a sudden, you this person shows up on the street, you have no awareness of who they are, how they are going to offer you anything, what that how they can serve you what, you know, answers they have to your questions, but you’re just going to walk through that door, just blind. Nobody’s that dumb.


Steve Fretzin  [05:30]

I mean, I think but I think if lawyers are looking to get their phone to ring quickly, and they have money in the bank, and they can do some pay per click to get to the top of Google where it is, it’s not something that, you know, let’s say it’s a criminal thing, right? Like, I’m not going to my friend, if I’ve committed a crime and telling my friend about it to give me a lawyer less. So that might work. But I think what we’re talking about is building trust, building credibility, building a brand in a market that is swimming, you know, with other, you know, lawyers, yeah, arcs, if you will, that meet that we need to, we need to get ahead of it. And I think that’s going to be a big part of our chat today. I just want to mention, before we go any further, we’ve got some really great sponsors, including practice Panther and legalese and money, Penny, all helping to automate and to make lawyers lives better, and taking things off their plate that most lawyers shouldn’t be doing anyway, or tools to help them make sure that they’re they’re using their time in the most efficient way possible. Yeah. Karen Conroy is the founder of Conroy creative Council, this is your second time on the show. You’re a two timer.



That’s right, exactly.


Steve Fretzin  [06:39]

I love her to repeat, and then maybe the three peat right, like, back in the day,



I have so much to talk about. There’s just an, you know, hours and hours of content available for us to talk about there is


Steve Fretzin  [06:51]

we’re not going to do that, are we? No, no, we’re gonna we’re gonna focus. And we have discussed this at nauseam to make sure that we are going to be staying on track. So exactly. Before we get into the questions that I’ve prepared and the conversation we’re going to go into, I think it’d be really helpful for you to just share a little bit about your background and how you got into legal marketing and specifically into website creation.



Well, this story I tell mainly because it aligns with the way that I know what works. So I started. So I have an MBA I also previously worked with for I was the Director of Marketing at Century 21. So I worked with real estate agents before I worked with attorneys. So I’m a glutton for working with all these wonderful people. Yeah. But so when I finished my MBA, it was at the height of the previous recession, and I was starting, I was looking at, when I finished my MBA, I thought I was going to be a consultant, I thought I was gonna work with some major consulting firm, and I was gonna go out there and be traveling around and being that kind of fancy business person consultant making, you know, all the all the money. And then there’s this recession. So on the side, I was making websites. And you know, a lot of people knew that I knew how to make websites. And so I started making websites for a couple attorneys. And then it just kind of took off from there. Well, at the time, this was the websites were HTML, they were like a brochure, they were completely 100% different product than what they are now, the technology was different. The presentation was different. The angle was different the messaging, every single part of the way I did that project was different. And when I first started my firm, I positioned myself as the low cost leader. So in your MBA, you go through a course which which talks about positioning and how to kind of, you know, and there’s three main areas, you can either have some kind of point of differentiation, where you have a unique product and your way, you know, high quality high whatever. But what I started out, as was the Walmart of websites, and I was advertising on lawyer wrist at the time loyalist was just like a guest posting website, everybody was just kind of throwing in content, but that’s what blogs were at the time. Right. So I was writing all about marketing there, and I was advertising websites for $975. People to this day still think that that’s what a website should cost? No. I mean, there are places on this planet where you can get a $975 website. Do you want that website representing your firm? No, like that is the worst idea I’ve ever heard. But, you know, this was 2008 2009 somewhere, you know, this was a long, long time ago. So we’re talking ancient history and And total different approach. So that worked and worked for a long time for me, I got a huge influx of traffic, a huge influx of clients. Some of those clients have written all these waves with me for decades, you know, more than a decade now. But what they have seen is that I’ve made these major changes, where I looked at my positioning, and I looked at the kinds of clients I was getting. And it was not working at all, I was getting these, you know, bottom feeder clients that micromanaged me did not see the value in a website did not see the value in my work. And what basically, I’m not kidding, the number of times I would have a client a potential client call and say, I saw this website that you did, can you just swap out the logo and put my name everywhere? Like do Find and Replace?


Steve Fretzin  [10:49]

Like, wait a second, that sounds like a legal contract. State Plan, just give me the contract, just take out their name put mine in? Yeah.



So So I would never work with those people. But then I, the big tipping point was that it was just I was just banging my head against the wall. These clients were, I was struggling with them. And I was trying to raise my prices, and they were pushing back. And once in a while I would get a client who was great. And I would say, oh my gosh, how do I do more of that. And the reason I present this is because this is the right path forward. So avoid those years of struggle that I had and start in the right way where you don’t have to then backpedal, change your positioning, and get this pushback from people who know you as as one thing, and now you’re changing thing. No, now, I’m not just Walmart, kind of, you know, I don’t offer Walmart services. Now, I’m going to try to tell you that you should pay more. And all these years, I’ve been telling you a different thing. So I had a coach, I went through a whole bunch of different courses, I did some classes that courses that didn’t work at all for me that I tried and tried a bunch of things. And in the end, I changed my positioning, find that found the right messaging, got everything aligned. And this probably took two years to get everything cleaned up from all those years of presenting it in a different way. And finally, I went on that right path, get everything aligned, cleaned up the messages that weren’t aligned with this new message. And it was one of those things you hear about where you’ve got like the hockey stick in in revenue you’re getting, I’m getting the right clients, I’m you know, this my stress level was going down as my income was going up. So


Steve Fretzin  [12:44]

juicy, but would you say that that was your this is the new segment be that lawyer tipping point, you mentioned tipping point. But was this like, when you think about your career and where you were and where you are now? Was there one thing in particular that that happened to you or that you did that was like, completely took you with like, I like I hired a coach, and that coach showed me so and so and so or whatever, like, what was that?



So I did hire a coach who is also now part of our team. And she does all of our strategy. We every project includes this because I’ve personally seen the value of this. And so that was the tipping point. Okay, there we go. And that was changing the messaging, changing the positioning, okay, aligning everything with going after the right clients with the right budgets, and you know, all of that. So that was that that was that tipping point.


Steve Fretzin  [13:34]

Just just kind of add that the importance of having someone from the outside Yes, take a look. So like I have the be that lawyer, podcast and in column with Chicago Daily law bulletin. It’s all over my website. I didn’t come up with that people think that I did. I did it. I had a much smarter branding expert friend of mine, shout out to Greg Miller and team and they they showed me 568 different ways that I could express sort of my value proposition. And when I saw be that lawyer, competent, organized skill Rainmaker boom, I was like, That’s it, you locked it. That’s the lawyers that I work with be they are that lawyer. They’re the one that people are talking about, because they’re killing it. And I was like, That’s it. Like, you just nailed it. So yeah, I just never would have come up with that on my own. So I like to give myself credit, but not for not for really good smart ideas like that. But that’s



an important part of running a business to is knowing where your strengths are. So this was another thing we did at the end of my MBA, we did a Myers Briggs, but we also did at the time, it was called the Gallup strength finder. And now they’ve like sold it to somebody else. But either way, it’s the strengths finder test where you kind of figure out you’ve probably done this right with your clients where you find out what your strengths are, and but you also find out what your weaknesses are. And when you apply this towards your team, first of all, for me, it takes a lot of the weight off because it’s like okay, I’m really not Ah, good at the being super soft. And like being super soft and fuzzy with my clients. I’m not that person. I’m super analytical. I’m super driven. So my strengths are analytical. And whatever the word is where you just get stuff done, like the execute results driven. Yeah, it’s something like somewhere like executor but in a nicer way.


Steve Fretzin  [15:24]

Executing people. Your stuff, right, so so we’re clear, you’re not.



Exactly. That’s important.


Steve Fretzin  [15:32]

It’s important to clarify, you know, exactly in trouble



blood involved. But when I start meetings, I have to tell myself, okay, slow down, say hello, be, you know, be social for a moment, because I’m so amped to get this stuff done, and to show results. And that’s just my personality. Yeah. So I have to hire for those weaknesses. So I hire people on my team, who are going to make sure that they follow, and they have those soft skills that are going to fill in those gaps. It’s not that I’m going to sit here and waste time trying to be a different kind of person than I am. I’m not, that’s a waste of my time. And I’m just not going to do that very well. I’m going to find the right people that are going to fill in those gaps for me. All right.


Steve Fretzin  [16:14]

So I think we’re on the exact same page with that and in the importance of leveraging other people to help, you know, fill in the spaces in the gaps. Did


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Steve Fretzin  [17:02]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:52]

So let’s get into the weeds though, on our main topic for today, which is around websites. And so what are what are most law firms doing wrong with their websites? I mean, I’m on internet all day looking at, you know, some websites that blow my mind and other websites that that make me want to just put my head down and cry. And you know, they’re from the 2000s, you know, brochure strip down the middle of this screen, you got more space on the sides than down the middle, right? I mean, and they’re all static, and they’re old. And they you know, it shows up that they don’t have a secure, like, it’s like, oh my god. So so what I just I just listed a few things. But yeah,



well, there are so many things, there are so many things that that can go wrong. And the two main places that I like to focus are that, number one, you have your own plan. So so many people come to me and they their initial kind of push to think about a new website is because their competitor did. And so they’re like, oh my gosh, that is so nice. Like, you know, it’s keeping up with the Joneses and stuff like that. Yes. And like I was saying earlier, people who contact me and say, Hey, I just want this website, can you throw my logo on it and swap out my name? Yeah. And so the story that I love to tell is that I recently I have a first grader, and I was just recently volunteering in her classroom. And the teacher sat them all down and they’re all like six, you know, they’re sitting, they can’t sit still. They’re sitting down on the rug with the teacher and she says, Okay, kids, I want to talk to you about something really important. So why is it important not to copy your neighbor’s work? Like, Oh, no. They’re looking around. Yeah. And so this one little girl raises her hand and she says, because it might be wrong. Yeah. And and so then this is this amazing teacher and she has them all look at her and repeat. Like together. It might be wrong. So I like it first graders can figure this out. We’re not gonna copy up our neighbor, because they might not know what two and two is. Then why are you as a lawyer who went through law school? How are you not understanding this concept? That first of all, you have no idea what’s going on in that law firm, you have no idea if their strategy and their plans align with what your strategy and your plans are, like, let’s hope you have that to begin with. You have no idea what’s happening in the backend of that website, if it’s a mess, and they put up that new website, and their traffic tanked. And it’s, you know, it’s, it was a bad idea. So why are you trying to cheat off of your neighbor, whose plan you only see, like 1% of the very superficial level of what’s happening with that website?


Steve Fretzin  [20:47]

Yeah. And so I think, I think, you know, what, what they’re doing wrong, from my perspective, to add on to what you’re saying is, they don’t really, they don’t really understand, like, what the website is there to accomplish. And it’s different for everyone. You know, some people, it might be more about the visual and the branding, and just just having a good, nice place for people to go to know that they’re professional, right to show off that that expertise and that professional professionalism. Then the other side of it is, you know, is it lead generation? Is it for cultivating new laterals and new hires, right, I had, I had a guy once, and I love this guy, but he a managing partner of a firm, and I had them look at his website, and I said, I said, you know, what do you like about your website? What do you don’t like, he goes, I don’t care about anything. I just look at the phone number. And then I call that number. That’s what I use websites for. And now and that’s why his website was a disaster, because he had no clue what real people other people use a website for isn’t about what he uses it for. He’s not the client. Yeah, no. Yeah, the way that he searches for stuff based on the fact that he’s also results driven, right, just go for the throat, I want the phone number, that’s all I care about. Nothing on a website matters, but the phone number. Rather, people are like, No, I want to understand the value. And I understand that they they understand me that the that the solutions they have are for the problems that I’m you know, exactly. incurring?



So what you’re describing is strategy, obviously, obvious to me, and you maybe not to everybody who’s listening, but what you’re describing is having a plan. So start with what success means to your firm. And then you have to work backwards from that. So that’s that’s strategy, like, who are your clients? What language do they use? How do you speak to them, because your clients, if you’re a personal injury attorney, have a completely different idea of what they need off of your website, then some estate planning attorney in Tennessee in some small town, and in that small town and estate planning attorney, they may only want that that phone number. But they may think that that’s what they want. But they also want to land on that site and think, Oh, she looks nice. She looks like she gets this and she’s done this before. And she can answer my questions. And she looks like she’s probably put this website together sometime in the last millennia. And, you know, when I call, then I’m going to get that feeling it from her office, too. It’s not that my phone call is going to go on a pile somewhere collecting dust like this website, I will get responded to things will be handled, my questions will be answered. And so all of that psychology of that buyer who’s, you know, let’s be honest, these are buyers, you want to call them clients, you want to use all this different legal language to call yourself a firm and not a business and a you know, clients and not customers. But these people are buying from you. There’s a financial transaction that happens here,


Steve Fretzin  [23:47]

maybe, maybe they’re buying from you maybe not, right? They’re potential buyers, or potential buyers. So, you know, how are we how are you? How are you leveraging the strategy to accomplish the goals of the firm to accomplish the goals for your business? And you’re not even thinking about that. You’re saying I want something pretty up on the screen. That’s not a strategy that’s just just blind intuition and lust for something that you liked somewhere else.



I can hear some arguments in people who are listening right now that this idea that I don’t really need that fancy website, my clients will come in from referrals. I know you hear this every day, and so do I. And I don’t the website, it’s not important to me. I do just want it to look pretty, I’m going to put a pretty picture. So my argument for that is that that’s fine. You now have what’s called a validation website. And so those websites are for people who maybe have your name and they have been referred to you or maybe for whatever reason they’re coming to your website with the decision is partially made. That’s a warm lead. It’s not just this cold lead they didn’t get your you know website off of a billboard. But they need to understand something before they are going to convert and either email or call you. And that is the psychology that you have to get right in your messaging, and your language and your visuals. In order for that conversion to happen, there’s something that needs to happen on that website. And it’s not just let me see your phone number, because then all we would have is websites with numbers.


Steve Fretzin  [25:24]

I mean, I told I told I told my web person lately, like, you can put my phone number on there, but I don’t expect any calls. Nobody calls me my phone doesn’t ring, I get emails, I know, I get website forms filled out. That’s how people want to communicate with me.



That’s your positioning. And so I don’t have my phone number on my website, either, because I get SEO companies calling me from Bangladesh, you know, so I do not want my phone number anywhere. Also, my positioning is quality, and prestige. So I do not work with every firm. This is this positioning that I switched on that tipping point we were talking about earlier, I absolutely do not work with every firm, nor would I ever want to because I have you know, and I’m sure you do, too, we we have this kind of sales process where we see if we are a good fit to work together. If you see the value in my work, you have the budget for it, you know, we go through this whole step by step process. So the first step is for you to take a look at my website, see if we’re a good fat fit. And see if you’re going to follow those steps that I’m putting in front of you to provide me that information. And this is the same thing we do with our clients. So if if your positioning is that high, prestigious kind of law firm, and you’re slapping phone numbers, and like the guy is walking out of the screen, and he’s got like the chat bot and whatever, those are clearly misaligned. And people say psychologically land on that site, and they think, what is happening here, I’m confused. This doesn’t make sense. I thought they said, you know, whoever gave me this person’s name said that they really know what they’re talking about. They’ve been around forever. And they you know, they went to this ivy league school or whatever they they said, but now this website is a mess. And it doesn’t speak to me on that level in any way.


Steve Fretzin  [27:11]

Okay, so we we understand that, that having someone evaluate your firm and what the firm is looking or the individual is looking to accomplish and talking about strategy really important, before you dive in and just start building something. The other big question that lawyers have, that I have, and we all have, right was how are, you know, why is pricing such a mystery? Like it’s like, yes, that’s some people that are, you know, 100,000 to a million, you’ve got some people that will do whatever for 1500. And they call that you know, you know, a good website, and then everybody in the middle. So how do we figure out as buyers of marketing? Websites? How do we figure out where we should land?



Where the budget should be? Well, it’s, it’s just as complicated of a question as where your clients are coming from to. So your clients,


Steve Fretzin  [28:05]

like how much is a bag of groceries?



How much is a divorce? Yeah. And so your clients are coming to you thinking, Hey, I saw a $99 divorce on Legal Zoom. Why should I not do that? Or it’s great. What is the difference between that and you. And so it’s the same with any kind of complicated purchase like this, where there’s, it depends, there’s gray areas, if you think that, you know, you can go on Fiverr and get yourself a website, and that maybe marketing should be cost costing $5. You know, you’re gonna get what you pay for. There was also this like, $99 logo website ages ago, and it was never $99. Like, you would start out and then in the end, it was like, five 600. So starting with that number in mind, and then backing into it is not it doesn’t make any sense. It’s like saying, Okay, I want a car. And it’s like saying, I want a Porsche. But I’ve got $5,000. So like,


Steve Fretzin  [29:07]

I actually bought one for around there years ago. By the time I had it fixed up, it wasn’t quite so it wasn’t a good analogy to what you’re saying.



Exactly. And so saying, Okay, I want the Porsche I’ve got five grand, like, how can I make that work, you’re going to end up with a Porsche that’s probably 45 years old, and covered in rust, and the equivalent is for any kind of marketing strategy. So you can’t set a budget without knowing what success means for you. You can’t figure these things out before you define what that means. So you start once again with a strategy and you make this whole plan and you lay it all out, and then you break it up. Okay, so if our plan is to go after, let’s say you’ve got a very tech forward law firm and you really want to go after firms in the in the Bay Area. and you want to work with startup companies, and it’s very edgy, and your positioning is innovative. And so right there, just that description of those few sentences that I’ve given, you should tell you what kind of language you should be using, who your clients are, what kind of things they’re looking for, and where they are. So those clients may be on, you know, social media, that would be a completely different approach than that Tennessee kind of client who is in that small town that I was describing that may want to just meet you in person or make a phone call. So the approach and that budget, it all has to depend on who you’re talking to, what matters to them. And that whole plan that you’re going to plan out, and then dividing that up into, like manageable pieces that make sense for for what that budget is, we do have a quiz on our website where you can like calculate a budget based on Okay, we have this many clients, we’re trying to do these kinds of things, and it’ll give you a nice range.


Steve Fretzin  [30:59]

Can we put that in the show notes? Can you can you send that this? Did you put that in your in your form originally or? No? No, no, I think people would like to fill that out. I know, I’m always curious about that type of stuff. And I think other people will be too. And if there’s a quick and easy way to get an idea about like what I want to accomplish with my business. And then what’s a kind of an idea of what it would be? That can be really exactly. That’d be a good tip.



Yeah. And, and it gives you a good sense of, okay, these are the different pieces that that you if you’re trying to accomplish, like national exposure, like you’ve reached a certain level you’re trying to get out there, these are the kinds of things that you need to consider. And then here’s a range for what that budget would be. And so maybe that’s something that you were thinking about doing this year, you look at that budget, you’re like, Okay, well, maybe next year, or maybe not.


Steve Fretzin  [31:42]

Right, right? Well, you can kick things down the curve, but that isn’t always the best the best way to go, especially if you’re missing out on opportunities. And other again, as we mentioned, other people aren’t you got exactly what the time. So let’s let’s wrap this up, though, with the game changing book, current, it’s this is marketing. You mentioned that earlier by Seth Godin, Seth Godin. Yeah. What’s what’s I know you mentioned you, you highlighted half that book and all that I love books like that. It’s it’s the books that give me 300 pages. And the whole book could have been summarized in like two sentences. Yeah, those books, I love them. Because the two sentences are amazing theme of the book, but you’re not really getting actionable tactical things that you can go and execute on. It sounds like this book is more aligned with



that. It’s a combination, because it gives you some good theory. And then it gives you good actionable takeaway things, though, the one that I’m going to focus on as the sort of closer, if he talks about these kind of, you know, five, five main steps to any kind of marketing campaign, you kind of invent a thing, you design it, you kind of put together your strategy and your story, and you spread the word. But number five, is the one that most people totally forget or skip out, or they think, Okay, forget number, you know, we’ll just go to four. And it’s being consistent and showing up on a regular basis. And it’s that thing that you hear over and over, we’re there. People say, Oh, they’re an overnight success that’s been working on it for the last 10 years. Yeah, that’s


Steve Fretzin  [33:02]

a great quote, I love exactly.



So you’ve been consistently showing up being patient with it, and providing value, you know, building that confidence and trust and kind of earning that permission for people to continue to remember your name and be there. And that’s the hardest part for most people is AI, you know, they want this urgency, they want it now they want results. And they they we typically say that you should take time. Exactly, we say you shouldn’t really be looking at your metrics much more frequently than once a quarter, once a quarter is a good enough time for you to be you know, getting results. But you know, not too fast, where you’re being a little bit you know, antsy about it.


Steve Fretzin  [33:44]

That’s like my dad, my dad looking at the market to see how his stuff is doing. And it’s like, every day is a roller coaster. But if he just stopped doing that, he realized actually, it’s a traitor. Traitor, you know, you know, look at it over the course of time. Right? If people want to reach out to you to learn more about Conroy creative and they want to meet with you, they want to you know, take your tests or whatever it might be one of the best ways for them to reach you



on the website. So it’s kind of a creative council.com. And we’ve got the website, the quiz, there’s tons of blog posts, all kinds of stuff on there. So website is the best place to start.


Steve Fretzin  [34:19]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the guests. You too time in.



Three time It’s time


Steve Fretzin  [34:26]

to timer, but I just appreciate you I appreciate you know, our friendship. I appreciate your your sharing your wisdom. And yeah, let’s get you back real soon. All around. Yeah, because thanks so much. Yeah, listen, this is what I do. It’s one of the things I do. I’m very busy. This is one and people do tell me that I am incredibly consistent with my social media that they see every single day. I’ve got, you know, tons of content and stuff. So I think I’m somewhat aligned with what you’re



saying. Yeah, we’re following the same plan. I’m trying.


Steve Fretzin  [34:59]

Well, listen, everybody You need to follow that plan you need to start being consistent with your business development, your marketing your website the things that are going to ultimately make you happy and wealthy and better. So you know listen, be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized a skilled Rainmaker, take care. We’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [35:19]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes