Lisa Katz: Building a Powerful Relationship-Based Book of Business

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Lisa Katz discuss:

  • Starting to build your book of business from early in your career.
  • Providing value to your clients with a network of other service providers.
  • Things you need to know when working with counsel.
  • The playbook for building a book of business.
  • Having the hard conversations to experience the growth.

Key Takeaways:

  • Everything is consecutive and cumulative, the more you meet with someone and have great, but shorter conversations, the more impact it will have than one multiple-hour conversation.
  • It’s not about the client, it is about the person behind the relationship you are building.
  • The longer you network and connect, the more you learn and grow and keep the connections that fit you and you fit them.
  • Everybody wins when you’re able to connect and solve each other’s problems or connect them with the person who can.
  • Your internal network at a law firm is just as important as your external connections.

“Revisiting conversations with the same people at multiple conversations makes sense because factors change. Take time to do that, even committing to a couple hours a week or 20 minutes a day.” —  Lisa Katz

Find out more about the Mastering the Legal Clock and Thriving Event at: https://fretzin.com/events

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Episode References: 

About Lisa Katz: Lisa Katz is half a healthcare lawyer, half a finance lawyer, and all broker all the time. She prides herself in being a strategic partner with her clients by acting as an outside general counsel to her healthcare provider clients and by representing numerous banks and private lenders on their healthcare finance transactions.

Connect with Lisa Katz:  

Website: https://www.polsinelli.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-katz-17bb1321/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/polsinelli/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, I just want to share another amazing event we’ve got coming up called Mastering the Legal Clock and Thriving. And that’s happening on the 29th of February from noon to one central time. It’s me and my friend, Sarah Reiff-Hekking, and we are going to help you reclaim control of your legal practice in one hour.

[00:00:18] Steve Fretzin: So if you don’t have time to come and join us, maybe you need to come and join us. I enjoy the show. Everybody,

[00:00:28] Narrator: you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:50] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I’m happy you’re here. We are gonna crush it today with another exciting and fun episode, and I’m putting Lisa on the spot. You ready for a fun, exciting episode, Lisa? Always. Always. Always up for fun and exciting.

[00:01:06] Lisa Katz: I always say it’s always a party at Pulse and Ally, so, you know, that, that’s gone well.

[00:01:10] Lisa Katz: Yeah,

[00:01:11] Steve Fretzin: my old friend Tony Nashar, is he still, uh, popping around? He still is, yeah. I love Tony Nashar, he’s such a great guy. And shout out to him. And of course, Seth Aigner. I love my Seth Aigner. He’s a client of mine. Good guy over there at that Chicago office. Uh, and for those that are picking up, be that lawyer for the first time, this show’s all about helping you to be that lawyer.

[00:01:30] Steve Fretzin: Someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. I bring on top legal experts and rainmakers to help you learn best practices. Um, if you’re also hearing about me and Fretson for the first time, um, I work with, uh, future rainmakers to help them grow their law practices. I also run currently three Uh, Rainmaker roundtables for existing Rainmakers that are already crushing it, but want to be in a room with other successful Rainmakers to talk shop.

[00:01:55] Steve Fretzin: And that’s a lot of fun. We had a meeting today and had a great, the great Dan Warburton talk about delegation today, and I could just tell everybody’s head was spinning by the time they got done with Dan Warburton. Um, so, uh, really good stuff. Lisa, let’s start off, as I love to do on this show, with the quote of the show, and this is an Eleanor Roosevelt.

[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: You must do the thing you think you cannot do. And so a welcome to the show and be, uh, tell me about

[00:02:20] Lisa Katz: that quote. Yeah, thanks. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be here, Steve. Appreciate you. I know time is the only really valuable thing that no one gets more than anybody else. So, so, uh, appreciate yours and, and the listeners, of course.

[00:02:34] Lisa Katz: So that quote actually, you know, I heard it a long time ago, right? Cause Eleanor Roosevelt is, you know, someone from a long time ago, but. In the last several years I heard it from a client. I’ve been part of this amazing networking group that I think the genesis of started early coded. So I guess that’s what 4 years ago now with women in health care finance and it started with a really small group of us and it’s grown now to.

[00:03:02] Lisa Katz: Gosh, I mean, it’s well over 100 and it’s women all across the country who come in healthcare finance from from different angles, whether they are true lenders at banks or private lenders, whether they are operators, management companies, appraisers, insurers, accountants, consultants, P. E. Lawyers, right? All the things.

[00:03:22] Lisa Katz: And one of my clients that I know through that network said that quote when we were talking about certain challenges that women in this business have. And, uh, I thought it was a good one. And I think it applies to more than just women. I think it applies to really everybody, right, to trying to do the thing you think you can’t do.

[00:03:40] Lisa Katz: Well, and there we

[00:03:41] Steve Fretzin: go. Business development. Lots of lawyers don’t think they can do business development and here’s the dirty little secret. It’s a learned skill. There are no natural born Renald, Tony Nashar, natural born Rainmaker. Yeah. I mean, I also think he came up at a time, you know, where, you know.

[00:03:57] Steve Fretzin: You could make it rain just by being out there and playing golf and at the, you know, drinks and, and doing the, you know, the cigars and all that. And I don’t think you have to do that today. I think it’s, it’s definitely much more. Of, of networking and process driven than, than just, you know, the, the, the glad handing back slapping days of the eighties and the nineties.

[00:04:15] Lisa Katz: Yeah, I don’t play golf and I actually was told that very early in my career, you know, I’ve been doing this close to 20 years and someone said, you’re never going to be a successful lawyer if you don’t golf. And I was like, we’re doing okay. Yeah, that’s

[00:04:27] Steve Fretzin: for sure. Right? Right. Yeah. And I, there’s, you know, that just does not become what it used to be.

[00:04:33] Steve Fretzin: I don’t think you’d have to go spend 5 hours on, uh. In fact, I was talking to someone recently who we kind of, we’re talking about like a different, it’s more, you get more value meeting with someone, let’s say two, three, four times over a few hours than one time over a few hours. Agree. Right. You

[00:04:49] Lisa Katz: like that idea?

[00:04:49] Lisa Katz: Absolutely agree with that.

[00:04:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Get a name for it and everything. And I forgot the

[00:04:54] Lisa Katz: name. Because to that point, if you meet with them at different points in time, everything is contextual and cumulative, right? As is anything in life, right? And so it gives you an opportunity to ask questions, because even if you’re talking to, for example, a lender, right?

[00:05:10] Lisa Katz: What kind of deals they’re seeing or willing to do are different if you talk to them at 4 different times over a span of 2, 3, 4 months in between, especially in this market, right? Um, what their appetite is for risk and, you know, what their peers and competitors are doing. So I agree with that completely because everything is time.

[00:05:27] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think it just, he was just talking to, like, you can build more trust if you’re, if they’re in multiple meetings that are shorter than one long meeting that, you know, especially golf where there is some talk on the golf course, but I think it’s a lot of BS talk. It’s not so much, you know, about people are afraid to even bring up business, but.

[00:05:45] Steve Fretzin: There is a way to do it. I think it’s supposed to be like the seventh ball, but that’s a different story. Lisa Katz, you are a shareholder at Polsinelli, one of the, you know, very popular firms nationally, but also in Chicago and, um, give us a little background. How did you kind of come to be? Yeah.

[00:06:00] Lisa Katz: So I started my legal career actually at a Northwestern hospital here in Chicago and their general counsel’s office.

[00:06:07] Lisa Katz: Which is kind of an odd place to start. Um, I had done an externship there during law school, and it was at a time when folks that were interested in doing health care law were doing things at the American Medical Association and other health care trade associations, more doing public policy, medical ethics and the like.

[00:06:22] Lisa Katz: But I really wanted a true Houston, Boots on the ground, operational experience, and as I’m sure you can imagine being in the GC’s office at a health care system, you’re exposed not only to legal issues, right? Of course, but also risk management and public policy and government relations, finance and all the glamorous things.

[00:06:40] Lisa Katz: And so from there, I went to another large firm called Holland and Knight and I was there for about 9 years. And naturally, I started there working for health care providers, of course, hospitals, health systems, and a lot in post acute and long term care and senior living doing transactional and regulatory and reimbursement work.

[00:06:57] Lisa Katz: And then from there, I pivoted a bit trying to be a very ambitious baby lawyer and Bill, a lot of hours and trying to diversify my skill set, and I approached the financial services department at that firm. And I said, Hey, I hear you’re doing a lot of health care finance transactions. And I think I can be helpful not only to, you know, document the loans, but I’ve represented the borrowers and I understand them from a regulatory standpoint.

[00:07:20] Lisa Katz: Um, and a compliance standpoint. And so when you fast forward to today, I’ve been a personality now, actually next week is 10 years and I have a truly hybrid practice. It’s sort of bifurcating that my elevator speech now as it’s come to be, as you know, I’m half a healthcare lawyer and half a finance lawyer and I’m all broker and recruiter all the time.

[00:07:40] Lisa Katz: And that’s really true some sort of an outside general counsel to all different types of health care providers. And then I represent a lot of banks and other non traditional lenders. What started on health care loan transactions, but as I’m sure you can appreciate, once you’ve done a health care loan deal, you can do all kinds of loan deals, whether they’re acquisitions or bridge to hide or for profit, not whatever the case may be.

[00:08:03] Lisa Katz: So

[00:08:04] Steve Fretzin: when, and when, so with all this background, when did you sort of recognize that building a book of business was something you should be, you should be focusing on? Day one. Okay. Day one is, is an in house or when you got into private practice

[00:08:21] Lisa Katz: at first day I started in private practice. Did someone say

[00:08:24] Steve Fretzin: something to you or did you just like automatically know that?

[00:08:27] Lisa Katz: It’s not that I knew it. I think I just I am not from Chicago, but I started to develop relationships in this market in the city very early on there being a member of, you know, the Illinois Association of health care attorneys and the Chicago Bar Association young lawyer section and write, like, all these things and just meeting a lot of people and.

[00:08:49] Lisa Katz: I am a people person. I like people. I like to hear them and listen to them and be a problem solver and get to know them. And, um, I think I knew and I felt very confident about. My ability to connect with people and to provide them value and that doesn’t always happen day 1 from like them being a client, right?

[00:09:09] Lisa Katz: And providing legal services, but it’s about being a trusted advisor, right? And to help connect dots for them and make introductions for them. And the more people, you know, and the bigger your network gets. The more you could provide that value and that in turn and then helping them with job opportunities, right?

[00:09:25] Lisa Katz: And things of that nature. And so it was definitely organic. It wasn’t like the plan. I was like day 1. I got to build a huge book and have all my own clients. It wasn’t like that. It was just like, I was very aware. Of my relationships and they were meaningful to me and I took them seriously and they kind of flourished from there.

[00:09:44] Steve Fretzin: Well, so I take back what I said. There are natural born rainmakers. I spoke too soon on that, but yeah, I mean, there are people that I guess just get it from day one that it’s about about people. It’s about learning about people. It’s about helping others. And that comes back to you in spades if it’s done with, uh, with authenticity and, and, uh, and, and, and just, you know, really a focus.

[00:10:13] Lisa Katz: Yeah. No, I like that word authenticity. And yeah, just it really, I guess, a synonym, you know, being genuine, right? I’m not just asking about what’s keeping you up at night because I want to hear you talk, but I really want to know. What’s keeping you up at night so that I can be thoughtful about? Okay, how can I add value to that?

[00:10:30] Lisa Katz: And who or who do I know that could add value to that? Right? Because if I can help you do that, then it makes me feel good as a human because I think most of us like to be good humans and help others. But it makes does make people that I learned think of you and they do want to call you when they have an issue.

[00:10:47] Lisa Katz: And even if it’s not in your area of expertise during the health care finance for me, as an example, if they have an issue that’s litigation or if with IP or labor and employment or X or whatever it is. They’re still going to think of you, um, and call you and ask you, and sometimes you can help their colleague of yours.

[00:11:05] Lisa Katz: And sometimes it’s referring it to someone else, you know, and that’s, that’s okay too. But either way, you’re still being helpful.

[00:11:11] Steve Fretzin: When you’re out there being helpful and making connections for others in the back of your head where you’re saying, what’s in it for me, or this is good. How am I going to get business out of this person?

[00:11:21] Steve Fretzin: Was that something in the bed? I know the answer. I’m just asking because I want to, yeah, I want to get your take

[00:11:26] Lisa Katz: on it. You know, it’s an interesting, it’s a really good question. I think I learned early on in private practice that yes. Having your own book of business did provide people with some sort of sense of confidence or stability.

[00:11:45] Lisa Katz: But at the end of the day, and I think it’s because I have such a bifurcated practice. I mean, I joke that I’m always hedging, you know, I don’t have one big client, Steve, or even three or even five or 10 big clients. I have like 85 clients, right? And so they’re all truly important and I know that any one of them could get bought or merge and that has happened right over time.

[00:12:08] Lisa Katz: So it’s not really about the client. It’s about the person, right? And like I said, I really am a people person. And I feel good about that. And when I came to personally, actually, I came over as counsel. Um, and I feel like some people are like, no one knows what council means. Like, you’re not an associate.

[00:12:26] Lisa Katz: You’re not a partner shareholder yet. You know, what does that mean? Um, I didn’t come over promising, you know, a book of business, but I knew the value I had read to other clients at my prior firm. And I knew I had already generated some of my own business at the other firm, but I didn’t know what would follow, what would come, what would happen.

[00:12:41] Lisa Katz: You know, a lot of people make moves, make lateral moves and they take a leap and they take a risk. They don’t know what’s going to happen, but I think I knew that if I continue to be that genuine person that I am, that hopefully good things would come from it. Yeah. Right.

[00:12:57] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think the reason I bring that up is I think there’s a lot of attorneys that, that don’t want to feel that way, that they’re doing this networking thing to just, you know, pass out cards and to, and to be a pariah, and that’s what freaks them out about business development.

[00:13:11] Steve Fretzin: And I think that what the mantra should be is, look, if we do enough to help others, authentically help others, that good things are going to come back to us. And sometimes we have to coach people through who we’re looking to meet or how they can help us because they do want to help us. Yeah, we have, we have to be there for them first and we have to be sincere

[00:13:29] Lisa Katz: about it.

[00:13:30] Lisa Katz: Yeah. And you know what I always say to a prospective client or even new relationship is like, I mean, I’m never afraid to ask, you know, who do you work with this council? Right. You can’t be afraid to ask that question because first of all, that’s. That’s highly valuable information for you as to like who your peers are for what you’re doing in the market.

[00:13:47] Lisa Katz: Because that changes over time too, right? Because law firms merge too and obviously divest and all that to say, I’m not trying to and I mean this. I’m not trying to fix something that’s not broken. I’m very respectful of existing relationships because I have my own. They’re important, right? But I do know this.

[00:14:03] Lisa Katz: I know that, you know, to me, you need three things when you work with counsel, right? You, of course, need someone who has got the stuff, right? You gotta be smart. You gotta know your stuff. You gotta have intellectual ability in the substantive area for expertise. Number two, you gotta be responsive. You gotta get back to them.

[00:14:20] Lisa Katz: I hear too many people say that, you know, They don’t get back to my email. They don’t call me back. And that’s just, like, mind blowing to me. And to me, three is, like, What we’re talking like a kind, good human, a good person who wants to actually provide all the other value adds make those strategic introductions, right?

[00:14:36] Lisa Katz: You know, see what dots connect and and again, the position I’m in. I don’t know that a lot of lenders and banks have lawyers who send them deals. It’s usually the other way around. You know, they take the work, they get paid their fees, they close the deal. They’re on their way. I actually want to give deals to them.

[00:14:51] Lisa Katz: And I’m able to do that only for my own network with their prospects that I work with also, but through my colleagues, right. Who say, Hey, you know, I need this or that. And who can you smile and dial make the introduction. And so I think those are important things to keep in mind. Yeah.

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[00:16:59] Steve Fretzin: And so I, I’m getting a flavor for how you function and how you’ve sort of built your practice and built your book of business. I mean, was there a plan in this? Was this, was this just, uh, just something that you just.

[00:17:11] Steve Fretzin: You found a way to make it a habit to be out there networking. Like, what was your, what was your playbook to, to build, to build, you know, uh, you know, to build a practice.

[00:17:22] Lisa Katz: Yeah. You know, like I said, it really, I wish I could say I had this recipe and playbook and that it was all kind of mapped out and it really wasn’t, um, I, you know, you do good work and people tell others, and then you.

[00:17:37] Lisa Katz: I mean, I have people introduce me to people every week to, you know, so and so me, Lisa, she just did a deal for me. She did a great job. You should meet her. And that’s not the two land horn. That’s just sort of what’s happened. And at large firms, of course, you got to be careful with that because if that introduction comes from someone, you got to run a conflicts check, if you hear everything I’ve said today, I don’t run a conflict check because if it’s someone else’s client, right, even if you get introduced, um, unbeknownst to you, that that introduction is coming.

[00:18:00] Lisa Katz: But doing good work and, you know, as you do this longer, you get to meet more people and you’re like, oh, I didn’t know they were a player in this market. I know they did health care finance. And especially when you look at, you know, non bank lenders, because there’s so many of them, right? And there’s so much private equity and other dry powder out there.

[00:18:15] Lisa Katz: That’s not from, you know, FDIC insured, you know, banks and those institutions. So you learn as you go and you meet people and you, you keep the ones that you like. I mean, I’d like to say I’m in a place in my career where. Yeah. I only want to work with the good ones who are, who are good people and good humans.

[00:18:32] Lisa Katz: Um, that not everyone can be that picky. I understand that. But I just, as your, as your network expands, as you go along, I keep the good ones with me and, you know, become a referral source and connect dots. And so I wish I could say there was a playbook, but there just really wasn’t one. But I think

[00:18:50] Steve Fretzin: you’re, you’re sharing the playbook without realizing you have the playbook.

[00:18:54] Steve Fretzin: I think, I think it’s a matter of. Always be trying to connect, always be looking out for other people and also letting them know and know in certain terms what you’re able to do and what your firm is able to do and, and, and why you’re the person they should go to no matter what the situation is as the first contact.

[00:19:13] Steve Fretzin: Well, if you put all that together, there’s your playbook. Yeah, that’s a big part of it. My guess is that you’re also, you know, speaking and doing other things to put yourself out front and

[00:19:21] Lisa Katz: center. Yeah, no, a little bit for sure. I, I’ve never been a big early in my career. I did some article writing. I do do some speaking.

[00:19:29] Lisa Katz: Um, but for me, it’s really about the dot connecting and, you know, people reach out to me now. I mean, every week I get resumes, Steve. People on the legal side, you know, even in house lawyers at healthcare institutions at banks looking to make a move and I have clients telling me, Oh, we’re looking to grow the team or Oh, we’re and so, you know, I mean, I just have one client who was at one bank and I let her know another bank was looking interviewed.

[00:19:54] Lisa Katz: She started their December. She’s thrilled. It’s a win win for everybody, right?

[00:19:59] Steve Fretzin: I think there’s something we can talk about that would help. But some perspective around this too, there’s a value in having a big network of quality people and you’re, you’re, what you’re doing is you’re developing this big network and it’s putting you in a position to be the go to.

[00:20:16] Steve Fretzin: It’s putting you in a position to get people with resumes coming to you. People coming to you saying, Hey, I need to fill a role. You’re doing all this matchmaking dot connecting. And what’s happening is you’re in the middle of all this that’s going around you. Yeah,

[00:20:30] Lisa Katz: no, for sure. And I tell this too, this is interesting because I have so many clients, um, and some would say that’s not good, right?

[00:20:39] Lisa Katz: Like you should be smarter and you should just have like a few big ones and develop them and get all their work or whatever. But to me, when I’m talking to a prospect or even my existing clients on the, on the bank side, that is there on the lender side to say, before you ink a term sheet on a deal, because usually you call your lawyer, here’s a term sheet, here’s the deal.

[00:20:57] Lisa Katz: Can you document it for me to go to shit. Call me early in the process before you’ve negotiated your terms, because use me, use me for what I see, because I got a lock on through my inbox and I can tell you from a completely anonymous and de identified confidential basis, if what you’re negotiating is market.

[00:21:15] Lisa Katz: Right. With your covenants and your prepayment terms that right? Like, and I don’t need to tell you who I know that from, but like, I’m looking at so many, my visibility is three 60 bird’s eye view, right? On the macro level. So, and that’s really valuable to folks, right?

[00:21:30] Steve Fretzin: And I’m, and you’re not shy about telling people that, right?

[00:21:32] Steve Fretzin: So, so they, they know. You know, to go to you early and to go to you first and right. I mean, that’s, that’s gotta be helping with, with, with locking up business too.

[00:21:41] Lisa Katz: Oh yeah. And if they’re, if they want to do it on the healthcare side too, because a lot of healthcare providers on various levels of the care spectrum, whether it’s acute, post acute behavioral, you know, they’re looking at acquiring and divesting and they’ll call and be like, Hey, I’m trying to do a deal with ABC company.

[00:21:57] Lisa Katz: Do you know them? We’ll see. Even if I don’t, I’ll run a conflicts check. And maybe one of my colleagues in Phoenix or New York or L. A. or Denver knows the CFO there or the CEO, like, let me do a little homework and try to connect that dot for you, because then everybody wins. Everybody wins. So,

[00:22:14] Steve Fretzin: the argument to what we’re talking about, that someone, not someone listening to this show so much, but others would have is, how do you do that when you’re building all these hours, you’re managing a team?

[00:22:27] Steve Fretzin: And now you got to go into value, you know, not only develop business, but you have to go out and meet all these people that end up becoming this big circle around you. That takes a lot of time. So what’s your advice to lawyers who, you know, push back on on building the book of business because it takes time.

[00:22:44] Lisa Katz: Um, because it takes time, so like my client base today, was it today what it was 3 years ago or 5 years ago or 9 years ago? Right? And neither is this firm. And when I came to this firm, we were half the size. And so to your point, revisiting conversations with the same people at multiple occasions make sense because factors change, right?

[00:23:07] Lisa Katz: And taking time to do all that can all happen. You can’t spend 12 hours a day every day doing it. But if you can commit to doing, you know, a couple hours a week, right, or 20 minutes a day, introduce two people over email who you think might benefit from knowing each other, right? Like small manageable chunks, because we’ve all, I should, we all have lives, right?

[00:23:28] Lisa Katz: Some of us have, you know, are married with kids, have families, you know, if you’re like me, you like to exercise, you like to travel, you know, it’s, it’s gotta be a well balanced approach. Cause your health’s got to come first and to your point, you know, work big corporate law firms. You got to bill hours.

[00:23:43] Lisa Katz: That’s just the nature of the business.

[00:23:45] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it is. But I think you must have some type of delegation system or some way of managing all this. And that, that, that probably is a part of a big part of your success. For

[00:23:58] Lisa Katz: sure. I mean, I had a call this morning with some of the core members of my team and I have to have teams on various levels because it’s not like I have all my clients.

[00:24:07] Lisa Katz: In 1 narrow hallway, right? Um, whether you’re working on behavioral health clients or health system clients, or, you know, on issues or reimbursement issues or transactional issues, um, it depends. And so building up that team is important. I mean. Your internal network is just as important at a law firm as your external one.

[00:24:28] Lisa Katz: And I think maybe that’s the first bite to chew off for young lawyers. I would say is to make sure, you know, your internal network, right. And get to know your colleagues. Cause by the way, you can’t cross sell. We don’t know you have. And so if someone does call me and say, Oh, I have this IP or labor employment issue that’s outside of my wheelhouse and area, how are you going to know who to call if we have, you know, 85 labor employment lawyers or 65, right?

[00:24:51] Lisa Katz: So you need to know your internal network. That’s really important.

[00:24:54] Steve Fretzin: And they’re not all created equal. You may have, you know, 10 partners that do the same thing, but maybe not equally as well, not only in skill, but also in how they deal with clients and the bedside manner. That’s

[00:25:05] Lisa Katz: exact. That’s huge, huge, huge.

[00:25:07] Lisa Katz: And, you know, we’ve all been burned a few times here and there. Of course, that’s part of the part of the circle of life here, right? Good and bad. The highs don’t go high unless you’ve had those lows to compare them to, right? That’s true. Yeah, that’s real

[00:25:21] Steve Fretzin: good. Good and evil. You can’t have one without the other,

[00:25:23] Lisa Katz: right?

[00:25:23] Lisa Katz: But it’s all important. It’s like, you know, I always say that, you know, I approach my life this way and especially with colleagues and with clients to is that. Yeah. Everyone I talk to, I mean, even you, Steve, I look at, I mean, your Uber driver, your waiter at a restaurant, every single person you interact with every day.

[00:25:40] Lisa Katz: If you were of the mindset of, I have something to learn from them and I have something to teach them, like how much better would the world be? Right? Yeah. I love that. If you approach every conversation that way, good things happen. I think over time, not every day, but over time,

[00:25:59] Steve Fretzin: really, really wise. And if you had any other advice for lawyers out there.

[00:26:05] Steve Fretzin: Regarding the importance and value of, of obtaining a book of business, whether you do it on your own. You study the, become a student of business development, hire a coach, whatever it is, what’s the importance in a career like yours?

[00:26:20] Lisa Katz: Um, number one, I would say to be authentic and be genuine. Like we touched on before, because I will tell you for sure, that is the first thing people will see right through you if it ain’t real, you gotta be real.

[00:26:32] Lisa Katz: And, you know, again, I say this too. I hope this is received well. I mean, you know who you are, like I can say to you respectfully. I’m too much for some people. Like, those aren’t my people. Right? That’s okay. Right? There’s a big world out there, so know who you are and be true to that. And, like I said, at the beginning, even with the quote, to bring our conversation full circle is, if it feels uncomfortable, or a little bit scary, I guess I’m thinking of my dad right now, it’s supposed to.

[00:27:00] Lisa Katz: It’s not like every conversation I have, you don’t get like sometimes that knot in your throat, in your stomach to, you know, what are they going to say, and what’s the worst that they say? No? Or when a client calls you and wants you to discount the fees, and they’re fighting you, right? Or whatever it is.

[00:27:13] Lisa Katz: Without hard, uncomfortable conversations comes zero growth. And so have those

[00:27:19] Steve Fretzin: conversations. Yeah, we do that with my teenager, my wife, and I’ll say that was a really difficult moment. And we look at it. Okay, well, now we’ve gotten through that, you know, so when you take it all with you. And then, you know, 30 minutes to walk in and like nothing happened.

[00:27:33] Steve Fretzin: I go, there you go. So we were making a big deal about nothing. So. I think in life, we just, we have to take what’s coming our way, learn from it, improve, learn from it, improve, and that’s how we become who we become.

[00:27:45] Lisa Katz: Yeah, you gotta own your mistakes, you know, I’ve definitely, and I appreciate constructive feedback, I’ve had a lot of it in my career, I’m not afraid or insecure to put that out there and say that, but I’ve learned so much from all of it.

[00:27:57] Lisa Katz: And like you say, I mean, you can’t fix what you don’t know is broken. And so you got to be able to take that feedback and take those lessons, learn and apply them and kind of swallow your pride sometimes and be better. Yeah. Well,

[00:28:08] Steve Fretzin: Lisa, just outstanding. And I so appreciate you sharing your wisdom and giving your kind of your story and let’s wrap up with our, uh, our game changing book or podcast.

[00:28:17] Steve Fretzin: And we got a book today. It’s called lean in, leaning in. All right. Tell us about lean in.

[00:28:21] Lisa Katz: Yeah. And I have to be honest here. I don’t have a lot of spare time for reading. Um, so I read this one a few years ago, but Cheryl Sandberg, you know, who is the head of Facebook and it’s funny cause I’m not, I’m not on, I’ve never been on Facebook or Instagram or Tik Tok or really, I mean, I am on LinkedIn.

[00:28:40] Lisa Katz: I’m not

[00:28:41] Steve Fretzin: explains how you get all your work done.

[00:28:42] Lisa Katz: Yeah. I mean, I, I can’t imagine having one more thing in my life too. Review, respond to, or follow up on, right? Distract. Right. But again, I think LinkedIn can be a powerful tool. I just don’t use it as often as I could, could or should maybe. As a woman, um, I think lean in is really helpful to understand some of the themes, even we’ve been talking about here about how to, you know, own who you are and don’t apologize for it, but still be able to take constructive feedback and learn from it and read the room and be able to advocate for yourself.

[00:29:17] Lisa Katz: And know that you can do hard things, and some days you’re going to get chewed up and spit out, and that’s okay. And, you know, the difference between, you know, being bossy and being a leader. Um, those are things that I’ve tried to teach my kids too. That’s a very fine line there. Yeah. Um, But no, I recommend and I think I think men would really benefit from from that book too.

[00:29:37] Lisa Katz: I think it’s I think it’s a good one Awesome.

[00:29:39] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. I’ll have to check that out and we’re wrapping up with our sponsors Of course want to thank uh, green cardigan marketing for being amazing and helping people figure out their websites and their marketing direction Uh law maddox the automation that law firms need to you know, stop Thinking about your marketing and actually automate it and get it done.

[00:29:57] Steve Fretzin: And of course, get staffed up to get those, uh, virtual assistants in to help you do the jobs you shouldn’t be doing. You’re, you’re worth too much to be doing the low level admin and marketing, uh, junk that, uh, you may find yourself doing. Lisa, thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom.

[00:30:14] Steve Fretzin: It’s been wonderful talking with you and you’ll have to tell some of my friends over at your

[00:30:17] Lisa Katz: firm. I said, Hey, I will do that. Thank you so much for the time and for the opportunity. I really appreciate it very much.

[00:30:23] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, my pleasure. And thank you everybody for spending time with Lisa and I today. Oh, by the way, Lisa, people want to reach out to you, network.

[00:30:28] Steve Fretzin: They want to hear more about what you’re doing. What’s the best way for them to reach you?

[00:30:31] Lisa Katz: Yeah. If you Google Lisa Katz at Pulsenella, you can get my email, my phone number that way, and you can find me on LinkedIn as well.

[00:30:38] Steve Fretzin: Okay. All right. And we do need to do a little work on your LinkedIn. I got you pulled up over here.

[00:30:41] Steve Fretzin: I’ll help you with that. We’ll take, take 15 minutes. We’ll make

[00:30:44] Lisa Katz: it. See constructive feedback. I’m taking it. Well,

[00:30:47] Steve Fretzin: you do. You do. I’ve got to send you a video. I have that’ll help you very quick. Very quick. I

[00:30:51] Lisa Katz: appreciate that. so much.

[00:30:53] Steve Fretzin: Yes. And thank you everybody for spending time with me and Lisa today, learning a little bit more about how to be that lawyer.

[00:30:59] Steve Fretzin: Someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. Talk again soon.

[00:31:09] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and episode, check out today’s show notes.