Liz Wendling: The Duelling Banjos of Rainmaking

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Liz Wendling discuss:

  • Removing your blinders to move forward in business.
  • The biggest mistakes lawyers make in growing their firm.
  • Making a difference in the first 30 seconds of an intake call.
  • The process to make the client confident and comfortable in you.

Key Takeaways:

  • When you do everything well in a conversation, the close will happen naturally (but, yes, you may still have to ask for it).
  • There is always selling involved. If you are in business, you need to sell to stay in business.
  • Gather information and make the conversation about the prospective client and less about you and your firm.
  • You have to set up the close from the beginning. You can’t expect to hit a perfect hole if you don’t set the tee up correctly at the start.

“If you sound like everyone else, then they make a decision based on the lowest retainer. Differentiation begins in the first few moments of consultation by skipping the superficial crap that people still use. There is a better way and it starts with ‘before we get started.’” —  Liz Wendling

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions.  You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



attorney, lawyer, intake, people, hear, liz, steve, client, consultation, business, problem, divorce, conversation, questions, practice, law firm, listening, call, tip, firm


Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Narrator, Liz Wendling, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Liz Wendling  [00:00]

Here’s the four word phrase before we get started. Now you’re signaling to the client’s brain, that we’re not ready to start hearing your story. Before we get started, pause, breath, they relax, you relax.


Narrator  [00:21]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:43]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. This is your host, Steve Fretzin. Speaking how’s it going, everybody? You guys know what’s going on. It’s the show all about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized. And of course, the skilled Rainmaker. That’s going to be a big part of our show today is talking about the skills that it takes to be a rainmaker, and I’m in the weeds with lawyers every day helping them do that. My guest is also in the weeds. And we’re going to have some fun today, getting you in the weeds with us and pulling out great takeaways. I’ve got Liz waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Liz?


Liz Wendling  [01:14]

I’m great. Thanks. All right.


Steve Fretzin  [01:16]

You’re a rock star. And we’re going to pull it all out of you today, we’re going to make sure people know what’s going on.


Liz Wendling  [01:20]

Let’s do it.


Steve Fretzin  [01:21]

Yeah. All right. But first, we must thank the sponsors. We love our sponsors, we’ve got practice, Panther, we’ve got money, Penny, and of course, legalese. Feel free to check out those guys on the show notes. And in all the social media posts that I put out there, you’ll hear more about them later in the show. Okay, so we’ve got a quote of the show that Liz sent to me, and I’m going to read it off and then ask her about it. It’s a coach is someone who tells you what you don’t want to hear, who has you see what you don’t want to see. So you can be who you want to be. And that is a Tom Landry quote, which is fantastic. And, you know, being in coaching a long time and you as well. But I think we get that we’ve got to sometimes give the bad news. What’s, why did you submit that, quote? What does it mean to you? And again, welcome to the show.


Liz Wendling  [02:09]

It’s a quote that always sticks with me, because even in my own personal life, I want to remove the blind spots, if someone can help me look at something from a different view, a different angle, and help me see it so clearly, so that I could move forward with confidence, then that’s what I want to be for my clients. It’s removing those blind spots that are in the way and taking the blinders off so people can have what they say they want to have. Yeah, but


Steve Fretzin  [02:33]

it’s bad news. We’re telling them things they don’t want to hear. So shouldn’t they just hide under the desk? Isn’t that a better point?


Liz Wendling  [02:39]

They can if they want to stay if they want to stay in the status quo?


Steve Fretzin  [02:43]

I see. We’re taking the blinders off the horse. Okay. Yeah. Fantastic. So Liz Wenli. She is the president of rainmaking for attorneys. We had the most amazing kind of intro conversation prior to this taping. And we were connected through our very good friend Molly, who is awesome. Thank you, Molly, for listening. In. So you’ve been doing this quite a while. Can you give a little bit of a background on how you got into coaching, especially working with attorneys?


Liz Wendling  [03:10]

Sure. Well, my legal consulting practice started about 12 years ago, when attorneys found me I wasn’t even thinking of working with attorneys. But I was speaking at a conference and the topic was on opening is the new Closing attorney in the audience said, You’re not going to believe this. But just yesterday, we were having a staff meeting on how crappy we are all as closers and everything I was talking about at the at the keynote was all about how closing has nothing to do with it. When you do everything else well in a consultation, then the close happens naturally, yes, you still might have to ask, but it naturally comes out because you’re doing such a good job connecting and communicating that the close becomes just secondary. And so she said, Could you help us and I of course, I said try can because I think I can help everyone in this situation. And I met with the managing partner, he hired me on the spot. And next thing you know, I created a secondary part of my practice where I work with attorneys on teaching them how to convert more of their very expensive initial consultations into happy retained clients. It takes a lot of money to get someone to call your firm and sit in your office, you better make sure that you’re doing the best when they get there.


Steve Fretzin  [04:26]

And by the way, the number one complaint from all pay per click and SEO companies that generate leads for the lawyers is that they do a terrible job on intake. They’re spending 1000s hundreds of 1000s millions of dollars on ads and things to drive in generate business and then they just don’t have that they don’t put the time and effort and energy into constructing the process around intake. huge mistakes dad


Liz Wendling  [04:49]

Yep. So sad to see that that one phone call could be a $10,000 phone call. But someone picking up the phone who’s not. Who’s on autopilot not on Uh, okay, this call is important. I better be my highest and best self every single time and they don’t I see a lot of autopilot.


Steve Fretzin  [05:08]

Yeah, it’s bad. It’s bad. But again, what we’re going to we’re going to work on today is something you guys haven’t heard me do in a while and I’m really excited about it. We’re going to do Dueling Banjos I explained to Liz what that means. It’s not we’re not in the back country. You know, I don’t remember what movie that was. But it’s the Dueling Banjos. Scary, scary, deliberate deliverance, oh, my God. Well, we’re gonna deliver ideas to you today and tips and things that you can actually use as an attorney to grow your law practice. But what Dueling Banjos means is that Liz and I are both, you know, we consider ourselves you know, sort of at the tip of the spear as it relates to what we do and how we help lawyers. So why not pull each other, you know, together to pull it together to make sure that we’re getting you the best tip. So I was telling her story, Liz, before we started that, normally, one upsmanship is not like a great thing, when someone tells something, you’d then want to one up them, it’s not necessarily a great thing. But today, the rules are out the window, we’re going to have some fun, we’re going to one up and we’re going to try to make sure you guys walk away with great ideas. So let Angelus ready banjos ready, but it didn’t Ring ding ding ding, ding ding. Here we go. All right, number one, I’ve got four of these. So we’re gonna hit number one biggest challenge or mistakes lawyers make in developing business and developing their law practice growing business biggest mistake number one.


Liz Wendling  [06:28]

Oh, the biggest one is that they believe that they don’t have to sell they actually have convinced themselves that there’s no selling involved when it comes to doing a consultation. And they actually tell me they hate to sell. And I know they hate to sell, because they think of selling as the way it was in the 1980s, that stereotypical approach where they think it’s all about force and being pushy and salesy and sleazy. And I don’t know about you, but I would hate sales to if that’s what it was about. And so they’re not willing to step in and shift their mindset to a modern and updated way that people appreciate today, they’re not willing to learn the greatest skill on Earth, because they have convinced themselves that they don’t have to sell there is selling involved. If you’re in business, you want to stay in business, because you’re closing business.


Steve Fretzin  [07:18]

Right. And so the idea that, you know, they’re going on a pitch meeting, don’t quote me, that’s what lawyers call it a pitch meeting. And that alone, is is very negative, like they have no problem saying pitch if they have a problem saying sale. So it’s really it’s a little back password. But here’s my number one thing, I think there’s an issue with time management. And I feel like if lawyers had more time to focus on business development, because I think it’s one of those things that always gets pushed to the back, chair, always, it’s always going to be last on their list of how they spend their time, when there’s billable hours when there’s staff to take care of. And I get those how important those things are. But but because they’re not managing their time properly, it falls to the rear. And then week after week, month, after month, year after year, they’re not hitting their full potential and stride. And ultimately, if you think about it, the less clients you have, the less people you’re helping, the less people that know about you and how great you are. So it’s ultimately hurting them. And you? Yes, yeah. So those are a couple things. Let’s move on to the second category, which is, what’s your top tip for intake and intake? Being the call the email what’s coming in that says, hey, I need help with a problem? And where are they messing up? And what are you suggesting they do to improve that?


Liz Wendling  [08:39]

Okay, one big thing, and I call it the call that starts at all and it truly is. So when somebody calls up and says, Hi, I’d like to make an appointment with someone to talk about a bankruptcy or a divorce, or any anything in that regard, where they’re calling with a legal problem. And someone says, Sure, can I get your name and your get your name? And can I get your phone number? And can I get your email address? And oh, by the way, can I get your physical address? And oh, how did you hear about us? Every one of those questions besides what your name has nothing to do with the caller, it has everything to do with you and it screams 1980’s. How did you hear about us is the worst thing that you can ask in the first minute and a half of a phone call. Because it says oh, by the way, we want to know how our marketing is working. So I don’t care about your divorce. We want to know where you heard about us. And I’m not saying that’s not important to gather that information. But that is the wrong time. In this day and age. When competition is so fierce. You want to move that to a different part of the intake call where it’s more natural, where it’s easier to ask someone, how did you hear about us not in the beginning, you want to put that caller right to the top you want to make them feel like it’s the most important call they’re taking all day and your marketing doesn’t matter right in that moment. Alright, so


Steve Fretzin  [10:00]

We can say that look, it’s not like they’re disappearing off the call right away, you can get that information later. What are you then suggesting they do in the first 30 seconds minute of a call that makes a big difference in how they get that intake to an actual appointment, or to get that person feeling good about their experience so far,


Liz Wendling  [10:20]

is to make it all about them and say, Sure, I’d be happy to help you with that, can I get your name? Great. So what I’d like to do is gather some information about your situation, or let me ask you a couple of questions or anything to put it back on the caller, make them talk more, and you say less. So it’s making them feel as though I called the right place. I think I like this firm. I liked the way they’re treating me. They’re not asking me with the other three firms asked me about my email address. Why do you need my email address when you haven’t even asked me about my divorce or bankruptcy or personal injury? So it’s really about turning the tables on them and making that person feel as though they are the most important call they’re taking all day


Steve Fretzin  [11:06]

in is the problem with the staff not being trained properly to not only take that intake, but they might not feel comfortable asking questions about, you know, how did you know not? How do you hear about us? How did you know what’s going on in your life? I mean, that divorce person, that potential client could go off for 10 or 15 minutes about that thinking they’re talking to someone who knows about it, when in fact, it’s a secretary.


Liz Wendling  [11:31]

So this is something I teach in one of my classes, so I’m just gonna give away the farm right now. I let people know I teach this. So thank you for calling XYZ law firm, how may I help you? Can I speak to someone about a divorce? Happy to help you with that? My name is Mary. I’m the intake specialist here. And I need to gather a little information prior to making an appointment with the attorney. So I’ve just signaled to you I’m not the expert. I’m not the attorney. I’m not the person that you’re going to divulge everything to, but I also train people how to stop someone from going down the rabbit hole. How do you stop someone who’s telling you? Well, I met my husband 47 years ago, and he’s just such a jerk. Nobody wants to hear that it’s married, let me stop you for a second, I need some specific information first, and then make sure you bring that when you talk to the attorney. So there’s some nice ways to gather everything that you need. But also you’re the leader of the call, the intake professional is the leader. And if that call goes in the weeds, it’s up to the the intake professional to pull that back. So that becomes a training issue and peep when people understand that they’re the leader, and they could lead that call to the successful ending of scheduling a consultation, they feel more empowered on that call.


Steve Fretzin  [12:45]

Yeah, and I would say my biggest tip to add on to what you’re saying, Liz is not just the training, but to actually come up with some scripting where if it goes this way, then you handle it this way. If it goes that way, then you handle it that way. So they get in eventually, if they’re if they’re doing this a while they, it’ll just be, you know, second nature. But initially, when you’re training someone, and they need to know not only what questions to ask, but if the conversation goes off the rails, if the conversation goes in a different direction, that they’ve got a way to get it back.


Liz Wendling  [13:15]

Exactly. And when I’m working with an intake team, we roleplay that I will, I will be an ideal client trying to throw them off script, and how are they getting me back on track. And it becomes a training issue, not a script issue. It’s actually putting people in real life situations. And I know a lot of people will think, Oh, the call can go off in 15 different directions. No, it’s really only two or three. So when an intake professional can understand which direction is going, it’s going, then they go down that path with confidence. Because they’ve tested it. They’ve tried it out on me first, not alive, $10,000 client?


Steve Fretzin  [13:55]

Yeah, I think that’s great. So we’re talking about training, we’re talking about scripting, we’re talking about role playing, things that law firms just don’t do, but really should. So there’s there’s a tip and a takeaway, a couple tips and takeaways on the intake side. And I love the roleplay too. I mean, that’s just no one does that, like no one’s playing it out in a way that would demonstrate there’s an error here. Let’s fix it. It goes back to your original favorite quote about, you know, you got to see what’s really going on. And sometimes lawyers don’t realize how the phones are being managed or mismanaged. And I think just an add on to that as phone trees are terrible. Oh boy, I’m calling me TNT and I’m calling a law firm and it’s I’m getting the same you know, press one for this press two for that if you have, you know, whatever, like I ha I can’t tell you how annoying that is.


Liz Wendling  [14:42]

And when someone says How did you hear about us? Not only do you sound like every other attorney you sound like every plumbing company, every window company, even calling your phone carriers as you hear about us. So why don’t you want to sound like everyone else by ask In that stupid question so early in the conversation, when it when it belongs somewhere else and it feels so much more natural when you connect with someone, they’ll give you all the information you ask them, but if you ask too soon, it feels as though you’re a firm centered not client centered.


Steve Fretzin  [15:21]

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Jordan Ostroff  [15:58]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:21]

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Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [16:24]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:38]

I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?


Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [16:45]

We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this add on Steve’s podcast.


Steve Fretzin  [16:58]

Very cool, thanks. Well, probably a good segue listen to the next question of our Dueling Banjos, which is really about Top Tips for the consults. So the divorce situation has now been escalated to meet with an attorney that’s been set up. And the lawyer meeting with that new potential client doesn’t have a structure or doesn’t have a system or methodology for how to run that console. And what happens in most cases, and I, you know, tap into this is we they end up in the pitch they end up following the rules of the buyer, not the rules that are going to make that meeting really shine. So what is it always default to Well, I’m a buyer, I buy cars, I buy homes, I buy, you know, things I need to know whatever it comes back to, you know, here’s my problem, what what can you do to solve it free consulting? And what are you going to charge me? And people want to know that with you? And people want to know that with me all the time they want to get to the bottom of what do you do and what does it cost? But here’s the here’s the rub, the rub is that’s more traditional selling her and the sizzle of the steak and the 80s and the 90s. And the stuff that we were taught to do then, yes, that’s not the way that things should go today. So what’s your number one tip for how to run an effective consults?


Liz Wendling  [18:20]

Oh, man, I have so many but this one always comes up because attorneys are taught and a lot of professionals are taught but when I’m doing role plays with attorneys, the mistake they make in the very, very, very beginning of the consultation is they lead with superficial small talk and generic expected banter. It’s what I call Level One conversation, the lowest level of conversation that makes attorneys blend in and sound just like their competition. And just like every other attorney, they will meet and I call it the low level communication because it’s overused, it’s generic, and it comes across so insincere. And it sounds like I walk into attorney’s office and they say, Hey, how was the trafficker? Cheverny trouble finding the building? Did you have any difficulty finding parking? Is it hot outside, nice tie, great blouse, all that superficial, generic banter that does nothing to the conversation. In fact, it lowers the EQ starts to lower the expectations and the client is thinking wow, this is going to be just like the last five attorneys I’ve met with. So as soon as as you launch into that level one generic expected language it you miss an opportunity to make a significant impact and say something different to a potential client. The minute you go into that expected banter in their head, they’re thinking, this is going to be just like the last five people I talked to. And if you sound like that, and in their mind, they’re thinking you’re just like everyone else, then they make a decision based on the lowest retainer so differently. Mediation begins in the first few moments of that consultation by skipping the superficial crap that people still use. I think that was taught 50 years ago.


Steve Fretzin  [20:09]

And I’m going to interrupt you because I have a funny example of this. So behind me, people that know my office and whatever, I’ve got this autographed Michael Jordan, Jersey, it’s my prized possession, right? It’s the only thing I have memorabilia. I’m not a collector of any sorts, but that I got a long time ago, and I love it. But I used to have a sticky note on the corner of it when I had an actual office. And it would say like, you know, 776, or 778, or something like that, and people would, so everyone that would come into my office and meet with me would comment on the Michael Jordan jersey. And and then they’d asked me, What does that sticky note me? And I’d say, well, that’s I’m keeping track of how many people try to open a conversation, mentioning my Jordan, jersey. Same thing, right? Traffic, whether Jordan jersey, so what does that show, it demonstrates they spent no time researching me, they spent no time understanding that. If I’m on LinkedIn, if I’m on Facebook, and I and you can Google me, and you can see that I’ve got 40 pages of stuff I’ve done on Google. And you’re not able to pick out one thing to talk to me about that might be complimentary, that might be a question, you have something that showed that you put in two minutes of time, prior to a meeting, you’re just going to bring up the Jordan jersey, because it’s the lowest level as you said, default, it’s a default. And I think it’s a huge mistake to your point. Because when someone brings up an article that I’ve written, and that just happened, I wrote an article about marketing and business development and how they’re not the same and how they’re it’s like climbing two sides of a mountain and that peak they meet and, and someone commented on that article, and I was like done for me, what can I do for you? What can I buy? How can it you know, she wants me on her podcast? I was like, done to talk about that. And I was like, Alright, so then what are we doing in relationship building at the beginning of a console to be different to be unique? And how we’re going to, you know, open up that conversation.


Liz Wendling  [22:07]

I’m so glad you asked that question, because there is a better way, attorneys think about the first few moments, there’s so much tension coming from a potential client, when they sit down and talk to an attorney, the first few moments, they there’s tension, they don’t know what an attorney is going to do to them. And the reason why is many people don’t sit down and meet with an attorney on a weekly basis. So their walls are up, the resistance is high. And it’s up to the attorney to lower the wall and the resistance. So for example, I teach a four word phrase that I’m going to teach today. But I’m not suggesting that you just jump right in and forget the superficial, you know, how are you doing today, not saying that, you jump right in and say, Hey, let’s talk about your bankruptcy. I’m saying that you have to warm someone up. But you don’t do that with that superficial stuff. So you might say to someone, Steve, I appreciate you coming in today, or thanks for scheduling some time to chat with me in regards to your DUI, or I appreciate you scheduling some time and getting on my calendar to go through the details of your divorce. Here’s the four word phrase, before we get started. Now you’re signaling to the client’s brain, that we’re not ready to start hearing your story. Before we get started, pause, breath, they relax, you relax. You might say something like, how you doing today, or Thanks? Well,


Steve Fretzin  [23:31]

well, I’m gonna interrupt because I’ve got one up to right now. Okay. All right. Before we get started, Liz, I just have to mention, I happen to see the most recent article that you posted on LinkedIn, I was kind of checking you out a little bit. And I just have to compliment you because it was not only well written, but you had clear takeaways, that really impressed me. And I think it would really benefit me in my practice. But I just wanted to thank you for that and let you know how much I appreciated that article. What are you? What are you thinking right now about me?


Liz Wendling  [24:01]

Yeah, I’m thinking, wow, this this person did their research, very human being first, hey, you’re showing your human side people by attorneys, not because of their expertise? Yes, they I’m sorry, they do. But first, they’re buying the human being behind that expertise. So before we get started, allows you to show that human side to say, Steve, how you been doing since your DUI over the last couple of days. And here’s what they’re giving you. They are giving you little nuggets that Steve might say, oh my gosh, I’m so embarrassed, or I’m so worried or I can’t believe I did this. Or oh my gosh, I hope I don’t lose my job. I’m so worried. They’re throwing all their cards out and you as the human being get to turn around and say, then Steve, let’s talk about that. Let’s go through the details. See what we can come up with or see that let’s talk through the process. But I want you to relax right now because you’re in good hands. And I’m going to make sure that when you leave here today, you have all the answers You need and you know the exact next steps to take. So take a big breath. And let’s get started. Yeah, so I just did so much in one or two sentences for someone to make them relaxed, relaxed, people listen better relax, people open up relaxed, people start seeing you as their first choice, not the real expensive second choice. If someone isn’t relaxed, their brain cannot listen in the way that you need them to, in order to say yes to you. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [25:29]

you’ve got, you’ve got to build some likability, some trust some rapport. And when people when a lawyer launches into a pitch, when the prospective client starts asking questions, there’s a there’s a loss of control in that meeting, and it could be 2030 minutes before they stopped talking before you get control back. So one of the things that I really talked about in in this is, is instead of making a pitch instead of solving instead of selling, and all the things that lawyers feel comfortable doing, because that’s talking and sharing their expertise, and by asked 10 lawyers to raise their hands, if they like solving problems, I think every hand goes up, right? The thing that we have to do in what lawyers need to do, and I need to do you need to do is we need to get into a position to ask questions, and understand the person understand their problems, and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Right. And the reason that’s so important, and the reason we need to be like Oprah, where we ask one question and then go deeper, deeper, deeper, is because ultimately, hiring a lawyer spending the money on on any big ticket item, anything that’s more than a couple 1000 It’s generally an emotional sale, meaning you need to get them into an emotional state about their problems about how it’s impacting them, how it’s impacting their business, how it’s impacting the kids, whatever the scenario is, that’s where the sale is made the understanding and the perceived expertise of the lawyer, not necessarily the actual expertise, although it’s best if you are an expert, right? No doubt about it. But it’s what the belief is of that individual sitting across the table from your next use even better. And so that’s going to happen through questioning, listening, empathy, repeating things back, showing that you care, and that you’re interested not about solving or selling. And we’ve got to take control the meeting in order to make that happen versus it going out of control where Tell me about your rates, tell me about your problem solve. So that’s my big, you know, take my big tip for consults. But you can’t do that to your point, if it isn’t relaxed, if you’re not getting that that opening, right, that then impacts it’s like dominoes, the dominoes, you know, fall a certain way or they don’t,


Liz Wendling  [27:36]

oh, opening is the new closing. That’s why I stress so much that those first few moments, it’s like the golfers out there, you put your look at the fairway, you put your tee in the ground and the ball on top of it and you give yourself the best shot to hit a great shot. And if you just don’t look at the tee look at the fairway and you just jam the tee in and you hit the ball, you’re not going to have a really good hole. So you have an opportunity to hear hear, every attorney has the opportunity to start a consultation. In such a strong position where the listening happens, the empathy is there, the emotion is there. But if you don’t take the time to do that, then it can then kind of go can go off in the weeds and off the rails. And then an attorney will say, well, they just they I was too expensive. They didn’t hire me because I was too expensive. And I always say they probably didn’t hire you because you didn’t do anything in the beginning that made them want to hire you. Did they?


Steve Fretzin  [28:33]

Did they the perceived value? Yes. It based on their how they feel about you how they feel about your expertise, your understanding of the problem, their interest in proceeding forward. And then the rates start making sense. It’s when they don’t understand all that. And it’s just about the numbers. Like if I just flat out told everybody what I charge, which I’m not going to do, but if I did, I think there’ll be some people that would just walk away because I’m not cheap. I don’t want to be cheap. I want to be the best in the business. I don’t want to be the cheapest in the business. It’s not a race to the bottom. And attorneys feel the same way about their rates. So if we start the conversation with rates, if we start the conversation in the wrong direction, everything gets impacted. And yes, you’re going to lose that bit that opportunity, when and when instead you should be bringing it in.


Liz Wendling  [29:16]

You’re right Steve, there’s structure, there’s structure to a consultation or a pitch meeting. And it’s really built on how people make decisions not about how you’re going to sell to them. It’s the path that the brain has to go through to feel confident and comfortable to say, let’s take the next step or let’s, let’s move forward. There’s a process the brain has to go through and that’s why when I’m constructing a consultation for an attorney, they understand Oh, that makes sense. If that goes there, oh, it makes sense. Why would ask this here or not talk about this here. And once they get it, it totally makes sense and it opens up that path for someone to say yes to you again, not be Coming in second place is very expensive. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [30:03]

So again to just recap from the challenges that lawyers have with time and with how they’re managing, you know, business development to tips for intake, and of course, how to run the consult, and you’ve got books, I’ve got books, there’s lots of different ways to understand how to do it. I want to, I want to, before we get to Game Changing book, and we are kind of wrapping up, I do want you to share, you have a very unique offering that when I heard it, I was like, my eyes got wide. I was like, Oh, my God, what a great deliverable that you have. And it’s different than what I do. I only do a couple things. And I like to think I do them well, but you’re doing a couple things. And I just love this. Can you talk about the secret shopper offering that you have, because that’s super cool.


Liz Wendling  [30:48]

Oh, it’s it’s the second favorite part of my practice. I am a law firm, secret shopper. So law firms hire me to go undercover, to give them an honest and in depth look at their practice, and their intake and consultation through the eyes of a potential client. So they’re hiring me to find the evidence on why they’re expensive marketing leads are not turning into more appointments, clients income and referrals. So posing as an ideal client seeking a legal solution to some legal problem, I am scrutinizing the human interaction I’m receiving, I’m looking to see if the trust factor is there, I’m analyzing that full client experience, and assessing where the gaps and holes are in their process that causes an ideal client to head to the competition. And once complete, I report back to the firm, The Good, the Bad, and The also interesting around what I uncovered, and how much it’s costing them to not fill in the in the holes.


Steve Fretzin  [31:51]

Yeah, you know, Lizzie, I just feel like, I’m definitely gonna have to have you back on because I feel like we only got to 10% of what we wanted to get through today. But didn’t you flew by so fast. I can look at my clock. I’m like, God bless it far too. Alright, two things. Let’s wrap up with number one, your game changing book is the power of intention. And can you just talk about that book and why you feel so strongly that that’s a that was a game changer for you, and why you’d recommend it,


Liz Wendling  [32:17]

I would recommend it. Because I believe when you start with intention, when you truly have a deep intention of where something is going to go or an intention of how you want to show up in a conversation or a consultation. When the intention is clear, and strong, then you can yourself can relax and move into that conversation with grace and ease and confidence. Because you took the time to set that intention up. And I think I read that 16 or so years ago, and I thought, wow, what if I did this in my personal life and in my business life, and it has never ever, ever failed me. Even this morning, when I got on our call, I set an intention for myself to be my highest and best self and to have a great fun conversation with you. And you delivered that for me. And I was able to be myself.


Steve Fretzin  [33:03]

Yeah. And you delivered it for me. So yeah, quid pro quo. That’s a Wayne Dyer, book power of intention. Everybody. So alright, people are hearing you and they’re going wow, I could really use the secret shopper or maybe work with you on your business done a business development skills, intake skills, all that. How do people get in touch with you, Liz?


Liz Wendling  [33:25]

They can go right to my website, which is the rainmaking And then they can go to Amazon as well. I have two books out there for attorneys, the brain Making Mindset for attorneys and consultations that convert though either way, yeah, so as well,


Steve Fretzin  [33:39]

I think we’re big process people. So whether it’s my process or Liz’s process, I’ve got sales pre selling but I have the feeling that they’re right in line with each other about making the engagement about the potential client and their needs their problems, their the rabbit hole that you need to go down with them. It’s not about how we sell or the sizzle of steak or pitching or any of that stuff. Because Liz’s point at the very beginning, it’s all about not only how they feel, but the emotional triggers and the idea that you know, we don’t have to solve until after we really have listened and we’ve taken it all in and then the clothes just sort of happened. So open with the clothes closed open.


Liz Wendling  [34:17]

What was that? Opening is the new


Steve Fretzin  [34:19]

clothes opening is the new clothes,


Liz Wendling  [34:21]

okay, and people buy emotionally and justify logically something you said earlier. Yeah, it’s about emotion, get to the emotion and you’ll go to the bank. Well, you’re certainly


Steve Fretzin  [34:30]

very emotional. You’ve got a lot of passion for what you’re doing what you’re doing. And, you know, you’re bringing my game up. So appreciate it.


Liz Wendling  [34:39]

I was born to do this. Thanks. There


Steve Fretzin  [34:40]

we go. All right. Awesome. Awesome. So listen, thanks again. I just appreciate you I appreciate you sharing your wisdom and and just being here on the show. Thanks for a fun time. Yeah. And hey, everybody, another fun and exciting episode of Be that lawyer, all about helping you to be competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon. I just appreciate you listening to the show and sticking with us. Take care everybody.


Narrator  [35:10]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes