Mair Hill: Sales, Relationships, and Generational Differences

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Mair Hill discuss:

  • Being in control of who you work with.
  • Teaching, learning, and selling with the younger generations.
  • Best ways for lawyers to learn business development.
  • The six senses of business development.

Key Takeaways:

  • If you don’t understand your younger employees, listen more. They are telling you what they need, what they want, and what they know, it is up to you to listen.
  • TikTok can’t teach you every lesson and the answer you want is always going to be found online, even if it isn’t the right answer.
  • There are multiple ways to do business development – getting outside, professional help can assist you with understanding what you need to do and how you can best to succeed.
  • Build the relationships, stay authentic, and keep to the cornerstones of classic selling. That is going to help you to build your business.

“The more authentic you are, the sweeter success tastes.” —  Mair Hill

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, before we get to the show today, just want to invite you to come to How to Become a Rainmaker to Achieve Work Life Balance with myself and my friend Jennifer Gilman. It’s on January 26th. It’s going to be amazing. You don’t want to miss it. You can go to Fretzin. com slash events to sign up today.

[00:00:22] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive in helping you grow. Your law practice. Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer.

[00:00:43] Steve Fretzin: I am Steve Fretzin, your host.

[00:00:48] Steve Fretzin: I’ve been doing this for around four years. I think I’m coming up on four years and, um, I think we’ve done about 350 shows. This is a show all about helping you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. My job, every single episode, is to bring you guests that I know will impact your life, that you can get great tips and takeaways from.

[00:01:08] Steve Fretzin: Give you a different perspective of how to look and smell and taste things that maybe you haven’t, you know, in the past. So, today is no different. I’ve got Mayor Wade in the wings. How you doing, Mayor?

[00:01:18] Mair Hill: I’m doing great, Steve. Thanks for having

[00:01:19] Steve Fretzin: me here today. It’s so good to see you. And we had just the most lovely lunch a few weeks ago, and um, It was just reminiscing a lot about how we met and our common friend Jim Rosas, who’s unfortunately no longer with us, but What a wonderful time and in talking about the show and what we can talk about today and we’re going to get into that a moment after we get into, uh, the quote of the show.

[00:01:40] Steve Fretzin: In this case, we’re going to call them dad isms because this is these are famous quotes, but famous by your father. And so the 1 that I thought you gave me a couple of them and they’re all really good. Maybe we’ll just talk about 1 or 2. Always run to a job instead of from one. So let’s just start with that one.

[00:01:56] Steve Fretzin: I love it. First of all, welcome to the show. Second, talk to us about that dadism.

[00:02:00] Mair Hill: I, we see it all the time. Now we’re talking to our boys last night and it’s about putting your job before you have one. So there’s that, that’s the basics, right? But you don’t, when you decide that you want to leave, My dad used to always say the colors of the wall will bother you and so it’s not about wanting to run away from where you are.

[00:02:22] Mair Hill: It’s about being so excited about where you’re going that you can’t wait to get there. And so that’s why you run to something instead of from

[00:02:31] Steve Fretzin: something. Yeah, my father was 100 percent on board with have a job lined up before you quit one. And so I think that’s and I did that with a business, right? I quit the job to do the business.

[00:02:43] Steve Fretzin: But I had the business lined up. I didn’t, you know, go too long without, without having that. The other one that I thought was really interesting was he said, um, a good plan is one you can do. So talk about that. That’s that became the title of your book

[00:02:57] Mair Hill: too. Right. It’s because it’s like going from zero to 60.

[00:03:02] Mair Hill: So many people want to do that. They want to go from zero to 60 and, and while in your head, it may sound good when it gets down to practicality and reality, you end up quitting before you start because it wasn’t a good plan from the get go. And so a good plan is one you can do is something that when you map it out and you really think about you, you put yourself into that scenario, but it’s something that is.

[00:03:27] Mair Hill: Reality that is sustainable and that will help you get where you’re

[00:03:32] Steve Fretzin: going. Yeah. Yeah. Just great advice from from your dad And I always try to take take my dad isms and i’ve brought him up on the show larry the lawyer everybody Multiple times a mayor hill. You’re the owner of mayor hill consulting And out obviously an author speaker.

[00:03:47] Steve Fretzin: Um your sales lab. That’s that the um, is that one of your programs? That’s one of

[00:03:52] Mair Hill: my programs to teach really concierge selling. It’s all about building strong, loyal relationships with your

[00:04:01] Steve Fretzin: client. Yeah. Well, lawyers don’t need that or do that. Yeah. Right. Or do they

[00:04:07] Mair Hill: need to change the perception? I think that all comes down to being human and letting people see you at a human level.

[00:04:15] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And that’s hard. I think they put up a false front to, to maybe not. Show everything and there’s some things maybe they shouldn’t show but that’s I think that that may be you know Being your authentic self has really come to be an important part of how you develop and maintain and sustain long term relationships

[00:04:33] Mair Hill: Right because it let’s face it when you need a lawyer.

[00:04:35] Mair Hill: You really need a lawyer Yeah, and so you never know when that situation is gonna come up to it. So to have A loyal, true, authentic relationship with a lawyer, whether that’s the type of lawyer you need or you need somebody else, at least you have a starting point to ask for a

[00:04:54] Steve Fretzin: referral. Yeah, really good stuff.

[00:04:57] Steve Fretzin: The um, Mary, would you do me a favor and go back and give us just a little bit, a little flavor of your background into being just a top level, not only sales professional, but also a consultant coach in the space. I have

[00:05:09] Mair Hill: been in sales, I think, my entire life, and when I first got out of school, I worked for a man who taught me really how to qualify.

[00:05:19] Mair Hill: And then he, the next logical step after I broke all their records, told me. That he would promote me, but women can’t sell. So I left. I went to another company where I became rookie of the year. And from there, it’s normal in the sales space that they keep cutting your territory, which they did to me several times.

[00:05:38] Mair Hill: My boss would always say a good salesperson sells what she has. So my income never took a hit, but they were taking away my relationships. And I really am all about building strong relationships. And I, after they did that the third time I left and started my own company, it wasn’t about me being able to do a bigger, better, faster, but I wanted to be in control of who I got to work with.

[00:06:00] Mair Hill: And I’m very proud of the fact that my former boss remained my mentor for the entire time I had my company because we left on such a good relationship. And I had my company for 17 years, went into the multi millions of dollars of sales. And I love being in this space. I, I ended up retiring from that because my boys were growing up without me, which was the whole reason why I started my company in the 1st place.

[00:06:26] Mair Hill: And I am excited to be back in this space. Because I have a lot of lives to change. I’ve been saying for a while. Give me every 20 and 30 something out there, and I can. Help them help them grow relationships, which is the core of any business dealing out there ever.

[00:06:45] Steve Fretzin: Well, those ages right now seem to be a sticking point, uh, for a lot of folks, uh, in the legal profession that are dealing with, um, new, you know, clerks and new paralegals and young associates who just seem to be doing things differently than the Gen Xers and the, you know, the older generations.

[00:07:04] Steve Fretzin: And I don’t know if we want to go down that rabbit hole yet, but I, but I feel like, I feel like I’d be remiss not to get your take on it.

[00:07:12] Mair Hill: You have to remember that the 20 and 30 somethings that are out there, that their teacher is TikTok and Facebook and Instagram, and so they don’t have the benefit of having somebody looking over their shoulder in a meaningful way, saying, do it this way, because they get all their answers online.

[00:07:32] Mair Hill: Yeah, not necessarily the right answers, but they get the answers that fit with what it is that they’re looking

[00:07:37] Steve Fretzin: for. Yeah, and so I think it’s, it’s, it then changes how we need to interact with them and communicate with them. And do you have a tip or two on that? Listen.

[00:07:46] Mair Hill: Okay. I have two millennials myself, and they are night and day different, and so you can’t, it’s not a cookie cutter method for every single person, and it starts with listening.

[00:07:57] Mair Hill: It starts with really listening and hearing what they’re saying, because they’ll tell you. It’ll be up to you as the wise Older adult to discern what it is that they mean by what they’re saying, because they don’t always know, but they’ll tell you if you listen and hear what they’re saying

[00:08:17] Steve Fretzin: and the biggest thing I hear from managing partners of law firms is not, not an again in every case, but that communication is different.

[00:08:25] Steve Fretzin: Yes, work ethic is work ethic different. Are they working less hard than we did? Are they, do they, how, how are they viewing work compared to how we view work? Yeah.

[00:08:37] Mair Hill: That’s an interesting question, because again, going back to my own two millennials, one is an engineer, and I remember early on him talking about work life balance.

[00:08:47] Mair Hill: And I said, at 24, there’s no such thing as work life balance. You have no mortgage, no kids, no responsibilities, like this is when you make, hey, but he really wants to save the planet. And he is willing to do what it takes to save the planet in his. Work lifetime. My other son.

[00:09:05] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. The other son. Yeah. My

[00:09:06] Mair Hill: other son is an entrepreneur and he works nonstop nonstop.

[00:09:14] Mair Hill: So, so again, there’s no cookie cutter and I think it’s really about what it is that they’re after.

[00:09:23] Steve Fretzin: So, finding out what they’re after, what their motivation is, that keeps coming up and I think that might be sort of like the, the secret to opening the lock of, of a millennial.

[00:09:33] Mair Hill: Absolutely, because for I. For my engineer, when he was making 50, 000 right out of school, and I said, so if in five years you want to be making 50, 000.

[00:09:43] Mair Hill: That’s okay. No judgment here, but that comes with work life balance. So there’s trade offs to be had. And I, I think TikTok doesn’t tell you that. Yeah, I think they, right. And, and that saving the planet is a real, is a real thing. It’s a real thing. That’s what they

[00:09:58] Steve Fretzin: want to do. Yeah. Well, we need a lot more people focusing on that with everything going on.

[00:10:04] Steve Fretzin: I mean, there’s no doubt. Here’s another interesting question that just popped into my head. You know, obviously we’re both, we’re both talking sales, business development, client development, whatever vernacular you want to use. Do younger people have a more open mind to that word and those efforts versus older generations?

[00:10:24] Mair Hill: That’s a really interesting question. I think They might be a little more me focused than we were okay, and we are I think it’s I’m not sure maybe that they see as Easily as we did about how we fit into the bigger picture But their world is a lot smaller because again they get everything from a screen So by definition their world is a lot smaller

[00:10:54] Steve Fretzin: But they also get a lot of various and interesting information.

[00:10:59] Steve Fretzin: Like I just talked to a lawyer this morning who’s, you know, in his forties and he’s never really done business development. He’s been into some networking events and he’s been to a, you know, a conference and that’s really been about it. And he just wants to keep his head down and do the work. When we talked though, he realized that his firm came to him, look, if you ever want to make equity partner, if you ever want to.

[00:11:20] Steve Fretzin: You don’t really have control and freedom in your career. You need to develop business. And so we’re having this conversation that took him 45 years of his life to get to me, but I feel like like my teenager, just as an example, like he did a little bit of an entrepreneurial thing, teaching kids fishing, you know, in the neighborhood.

[00:11:38] Steve Fretzin: And I helped him with that. And I just see an entrepreneurial spirit. And I don’t know if that’s in him or if that’s yeah. Are they picking up from TikTok that you can be a YouTuber or you could be an entrepreneur like that’s how you make money today versus being in a static job?

[00:11:53] Mair Hill: Absolutely. I think everybody looks at the influencer world and people getting lots of money or putting their stuff online as the answer.

[00:12:04] Mair Hill: Yeah. And so to be in a traditional nine to five, I mean, even the whole work from home thing has changed. We were, I was talking to my nephew last night and we’re asking him, does anybody real, and he works for a big, he works for a fortune 100 company. Does anybody really work on Fridays

[00:12:22] Steve Fretzin: anymore? Yeah, I mean, that’s interesting and it’s, it’s continuing to evolve and I know it’s frustrating for both sides, the people, the bosses and the employees and how they’re, how they’re coming and how they’re finding a mutual fit.

[00:12:35] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I’m, I’m talking to a lawyers about, um, hiring for work ethic because they get so frustrated that the lawyers. Want that balance that work life balance. It’s such a level that they’re not willing to go any extra mile. And like you said, you’re 24 year old. This is, you know, make hay, but there are lawyers that just want to show up, do their stuff and go home and get paid X.

[00:12:56] Steve Fretzin: And I think that might be short sighted, but everybody’s got a different spin on it, but it’s frustrating the, the, the, the workers, the, the people that, that worked hard themselves and see that’s how you need to get ahead in this world as you need to go that extra mile. I

[00:13:10] Mair Hill: think not everybody wants to get ahead in this world.

[00:13:13] Mair Hill: And so, I think that’s what we bring to the table as an older generation. It’s, it’s like the, the person, your lawyer that you talked to that was told, if you want to make equity partner, you have to do this. It never, it probably never occurred to him before. Or he thought if he just continued along this path, it would be automatic by some, you know, rainbows and unicorns.

[00:13:36] Mair Hill: And so these younger people with the hiring, the work ethic, somebody could have a really strong work ethic between 9 to 5 or whatever it takes to get the job done. And that could be all that they need to do because they have a life entirely outside of work. And that’s what’s important

[00:13:53] Steve Fretzin: to them. And I think going the extra mile for many attorneys that are listening right now is, is doing the personal branding, doing the business development, getting out there and getting active to grow business for themselves.

[00:14:07] Steve Fretzin: And yes, maybe, you know, for their firm too, but many of them are, are, are just, I don’t want to say suffering in silence, but they’re just going at it alone. Why do you think people are so hesitant to hire coaches or talk to people like you and I about.

[00:14:22] Mair Hill: I think because they think this is not rocket science and I’m a really smart person and I, I ought to be able to do this, but I think what happens, I always say that if there’s 10 things that you need to be successful, I could tell you all 10 right now.

[00:14:39] Mair Hill: But your eyes would glaze over and so if you, but if you find those 10 things listed on Tik and you look through them and you say, okay, well, I already know first 4, so I’m not even going to bother with those. I’m going to skip right to number 8. You don’t realize number 4 were the foundation. So if you never got them right, you think you did, or you, or you knew them once, but you forgot to use them.

[00:15:03] Mair Hill: And so I think it’s, that’s where the suffering and silence comes from because you keep beating your head against the wall because you are so close to it, you can’t see it. And that’s why asking for help is beneficial. It’s why they don’t.

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[00:17:01] Steve Fretzin: only if there was a, if there was only a book called legal business development, isn’t rocket science, right? I’m holding it up from air that would solve everything. So I love that. I’m putting out content like this podcast and books and videos and stuff like that. And I, and I know that it’s making an impact.

[00:17:19] Steve Fretzin: People tell me it is on a pretty regular basis. But it’s not the same as, you know, it’s like, like I could go and read a book on golf. That doesn’t make me a scratch golfer on the, on the golf course, right? You need to get out and work with a pro, get your swing in line, go on the course, play the holes, figure it all out.

[00:17:36] Steve Fretzin: And having someone that helps you is so critical. So what are the best ways for lawyers to not only learn business development, But I know there’s a, there’s a thing I want to ask you about the six senses and how to use those, but maybe let’s, let’s do that two parts. So number one is what’s the mindset they need to have to go out and develop business.

[00:17:54] Steve Fretzin: And then the second part of that question is how do they use their six senses, which is a very cool thing. I saw on your website and wanted to ask you about.

[00:18:02] Mair Hill: So first let’s, let’s use your golf as, as the analogy. Let’s keep going with that and working with the pro. So you could be out there and he’s swinging away at the club and try and hit the ball.

[00:18:15] Mair Hill: And your swing would be pretty good. You keep going off to the left or going off to the right. You’re, it’s the pro that’s going to be able to say you’re lifting your head up or your foot needs to be two inches to the left or you need to grip your club greater. Again, with you being too close to it, you’ll never see that.

[00:18:40] Mair Hill: And that’s why you’ll keep swinging away. And sometimes you’ll get close to the pin, but other times you’ll go off to the left or right without the professional help to help you tweet what you’re doing. That’s the, it’s not rocket science, subtleties and nuances and tweaks that when you work with a professional.

[00:19:01] Mair Hill: They can help you be so much more effective

[00:19:04] Steve Fretzin: exponentially. Yeah, I was so happy. I read my son wrote an essay for school and sent it to me and I read it this morning and he was talking about fishing and he said, you know, people think fishing is just, you know, throwing a line in the water, sitting back in your chair and drinking a beer.

[00:19:19] Steve Fretzin: And it could not be another, there is that way to fish, but that’s not how I fish. And that’s not how my son fish. And I know I’m going off of golf, but this was like right in my head. There’s the equipment that you have, there’s the water and the movement and there’s logs and there’s places that you want to throw the thing.

[00:19:35] Steve Fretzin: And there’s different types of lures that you need to use for certain types of fish. And it’s constant movement. It’s constant thinking and adjusting. And I don’t think people can do that effectively in, in business development without professional help. Unless they’re willing to put enough time into it and be self reflective, which is very difficult to do.

[00:19:57] Mair Hill: Right. And I like to say that when you get to that place, how fast do you need to Succeed for you. If you’ve told yourself, you’re going to be a lawyer and you’re giving yourself 5 years, 10 years, 15 years to become partner, whatever that timeline is. And it’s different for everybody. It’s different. And there again, no judgment.

[00:20:23] Mair Hill: To get there in your timeline, you need that outside help, exactly what you just said about fishing to find the perfect log, to take note of the water, to know how far to throw the line out. And you can’t know all those things. You can’t be expected to know all those things when this is your first go round, right?

[00:20:47] Mair Hill: It’s the pros that have been there that have all the experience to see all the different ways of where the logs are. And how fast the water moves and what you need to do to adjust again. Not rocket science. You can figure it out yourself, but will you figure it out yourself fast enough that you won’t get so discouraged that you quit?

[00:21:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, the lawyer I spoke with this morning. She’s 56 and bright and like, you know, it’s I call. I got to read an article called the potential gap. The potential that she has to grow business is so huge that it’s like, all she needs is some time with me. And working together and like every, she’s like, I can’t believe I’m 56 and I’m not at a million dollars.

[00:21:25] Steve Fretzin: I thought I would have been here a long time ago and she’s not. She’s at a quarter of that and it’s super frustrating to her and she just needs to draw a line in the sand and say, I’m not going to go at it alone anymore. And we’ll, we’ll get her to the million. It’s just, it’s just going to happen really much faster than, you know, that hasn’t already happened.

[00:21:44] Steve Fretzin: So how do people use their six senses to develop business? This is one of the most interesting things I’ve seen on a website and I just loved how you, how you laid it out. So I thought we’d just take a few minutes on it, but talk to me about, about the six senses. I don’t know if you want me to go through them one, one by one or how you want to run with that.

[00:22:03] Steve Fretzin: Well, we’ll start, we’ll start,

[00:22:04] Mair Hill: we already talked about listening and hearing, right? That’s really, I think, what the millennials need in particular is to be heard.

[00:22:12] Steve Fretzin: And, and clients, you know, not, I mean, internal, external, everybody wants to be and needs to be listened to, and I think also understood. There’s a level of understanding that takes place in a, any relationship that if, if I feel understood by you, Mayor.

[00:22:28] Steve Fretzin: Then the relationship is going to blossom. If I don’t feel like you understand me, right, then there’s chance of conflict or, or just moving the other way.

[00:22:36] Mair Hill: Right. And it was in, uh, Dale Carnegie’s book, the, how to win friends and influence people was all about. You know, going to a dinner party and, and being a great listener and the other person yabbering on for forever and then leaving and saying, wow, I loved talking to you tonight.

[00:22:57] Mair Hill: You are the best conversationalist, right? So there’s the, there’s the hearing part and, and tasting, right? Success tastes really sweet and you can talk about the bittersweetness of, of failure. And which, which place do you want it to be? And it’s really about being the more authentic you are. I think the sweeter the success tastes.

[00:23:21] Mair Hill: Right. How about sight? Sight is really kind of what you see in your head. It’s about, I mean, looking at the opportunities that are around you. So there’s that the actual site, but it’s also. In envisioning what it is where you see yourself and the impact you see yourself making on this world, because then, like the alchemist, right, Paul Quayleau is all the universe will conspire to make that happen for you to put you in the right place at the right time to meet the right person.

[00:23:54] Mair Hill: So, the circumstances will all come and fall into play, right? And how about touch touch? This is the part where you are. I’m going to probably skip ahead a little bit where why people are so afraid of the word sales is because I think you think you have to feel or you feel icky if you’re selling something you and so there’s that sensation where people just, it’s like holding up a cross, like stay away, stay away because they already had a really bad sales experience.

[00:24:26] Mair Hill: When at some point in their life, I did a 5 day challenge, and this was so interesting to me that every I asked the worst sales experience that you had tell me what they are trying to sell. And how long ago was it and the, and the response is this morning we’re talking yesterday or last week or last month.

[00:24:46] Mair Hill: These are things that happened 5 to 10 years ago that are seared into these people’s brains. And so that’s what they, they met. It still makes them feel icky. And they think that if they try and do the same, they’ll feel icky too.

[00:25:03] Steve Fretzin: And how about how about smell now

[00:25:05] Mair Hill: is it really stinks when you think you have to put on those errors in order to be successful that you can’t be your authentic self and really it’s less exhausting to be only yourself because you don’t have to remember who you were and what you said when if you just are your own authentic self, you will the relationship grows deeper, stronger and more loyal

[00:25:32] Steve Fretzin: all the time.

[00:25:34] Steve Fretzin: You know, when you put them all together, you have someone who’s learning and listening and understanding and qualifying and, and, and being their genuine self and helping others selflessly. And that’s really what I think business development is today. And that’s something that lawyers should want to do and be excited to do because convincing and pitching and selling.

[00:25:59] Steve Fretzin: Or in my estimation, I want to get your take on it. Those are kind of like in the rear view mirror as far as I’m concerned. That’s not what is winning over business, right? It’s more about how you made someone feel and their urgency to take action on how you made them feel.

[00:26:14] Mair Hill: Absolutely. And if you, by some chance, succeeded at doing that, that way being pushy, they’re one offs.

[00:26:24] Mair Hill: Can you, can you get a sale being pushy? Sure. You can get a mercy sale and, and all of that and they’ll, and, and they bought it and now you go away. You will not get the referrals. You will not get the repeat business. You will not develop a loyal client base that will think of you every time they need a legal anything.

[00:26:43] Mair Hill: And that’s what you want. You want to be top of mind. You want to be top of mind and being authentic. Is the way that you do it

[00:26:52] Steve Fretzin: and the relationship in walking a buyer through a buying decision or how you’re interacting and communicating with a millennial or anybody in your firm and the basis of that in the relationship, that’s what drives longevity.

[00:27:07] Mair Hill: Absolutely. And it’s, it is about building a relationship by getting to know the other person. And like you said earlier, let they know that they’ve been heard because that’s what builds the loyalty. Yeah,

[00:27:21] Steve Fretzin: they’re really cool stuff. Let’s wrap things up a little bit with your game changing book or podcast in this case It’s a book how I raised myself from failure to success in selling So who’s that buy in and talk to everybody about about that book?

[00:27:35] Mair Hill: It’s a really old book It’s Frank better Betcher wrote it and he was really good buddies with Dale Carnegie. So it makes sense That they, they were in cahoots together. I swear it was probably, he was in insurance sales in the, back in the early 1900s, basically. And it’s all about building relationships.

[00:27:56] Mair Hill: It’s about being enthusiastic about what you do and showing up enthusiastically. It’s about being a good listener. It’s all the things that we’ve been talking about. And he is just so practical about it. In his book that I resonated with every word and fortunately, I already do pretty much everything that he says in the book.

[00:28:18] Mair Hill: He just puts it in a really archaic, but very practical method of really short chapters and just lots of practical relationship building advice.

[00:28:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, it sounds in some of those older books like thinking grow rich and the Dale Carnegie and all that. I mean, uh, Sandler, like these are all. The cornerstones of, of how we’re doing what I call sales free selling today, right?

[00:28:43] Steve Fretzin: It’s all, it’s not about the hardcore techniques, the art of the deal, if you will, right? It’s going to be more about how do we build business through relationships and being helpful and, and being authentic and, and, and, and all that. And that, and that, that’s really where I think people need to go. And again, it’s all a learned skill.

[00:29:00] Steve Fretzin: Uh, the guy I talked to today. He said, yeah, all these natural rainmakers. I never saw myself that way. I go, that’s a bunch of who we, I mean, they’re, that’s the, you know, days past the guy at the, at the private golf club who’s, you know, shaking hands and kissing babies. And that’s who built the million dollar books.

[00:29:15] Steve Fretzin: And today it’s all happening by people who are the underdogs, the introverts, the, the folks that never thought they could do it, that are doing it and getting their sliver of the pie. So, yeah. Uh, and being in

[00:29:26] Mair Hill: the, and being in it for the long game. Yeah. Right. That’s part of it too. I watch my husband who has always been friendly with all of his competition.

[00:29:37] Mair Hill: He would go to trade shows in another state and he would arrange for, to meet one of his competitors for dinner and that huge because it’s weighing off now in big ways. And

[00:29:49] Steve Fretzin: lawyers sometimes get A lot of business from the folks that they show up against in, in court or the ones that they, that, that are able to identify that they’re, they’re good at what they do and that they, they maintain a, a positive relationship, not a, not an, a, um, you know, a, a very, um, uh, opposing type of, of, of relationship.

[00:30:10] Steve Fretzin: Um,

[00:30:10] Mair Hill: So, because there’s mutual respect and admiration there. Sorry. I

[00:30:13] Steve Fretzin: mean, no, no, no, you’re, you’re spot on. You’re spot on. Hey, as we wrap up, want to just take a moment to thank our sponsors, of course, Green Cardigan Marketing, Get Staffed Up and Lawmatics. So thank you guys. And hopefully you guys are all checking out their websites and, and, and doing some work with them.

[00:30:29] Steve Fretzin: And Mayor, if people want to get in touch with you, I think not only for some of the sales stuff, but I think, you know, in particular, I love that you’re really focusing on The, the younger generations, the 20 and 30 somethings and the millennials and helping them to be their best selves. And maybe, you know, how do people get in touch with you and then what are you doing specifically for those younger groups?

[00:30:51] Steve Fretzin: For the

[00:30:51] Mair Hill: younger groups, I have been, well, I have your sales lab, which is online, but I’ve been working with them, uh, one on one. I work with 1, people, like in a team on site. To do those tweaks and nuances to be that person looking over the shoulder to not let them get away with not doing Number one two and three.

[00:31:12] Mair Hill: Yeah to be successful bigger better faster and my website is marehillconsulting. com at m a i r h i l l consulting. com and Love to

[00:31:25] Steve Fretzin: yeah, and I’d love for people to reach out to you, especially if again if they’re dealing with With, um, millennials that need to grow up and take ownership of their business development, ownership of maybe they’re the future of your firm and you just need them to be better leaders and better producers and set and things like that.

[00:31:43] Steve Fretzin: Um, thank you so much, Mary. I mean, I, again, I enjoyed not only catching up with you, but also. Doing this and just getting, you know, kind of your, your take on things out into the, uh, open and sharing your wisdom. So thanks so much. Thanks again for having

[00:31:56] Mair Hill: me, Steve. It’s

[00:31:57] Steve Fretzin: been a pleasure. Yeah. And you’ll tell Rich, I said, Hey, I absolutely will.

[00:32:01] Steve Fretzin: All right. All right. Very good. I thank you everybody for spending some time with Marin. I today just covered a lot of ground. Actually, I’m just looking back in my notes and a lot to learn and a lot to take away from our program today. These are all the things you need to consider and reconsider as you’re trying to be that lawyer.

[00:32:16] Steve Fretzin: And continue listening to the show. If you like it and you’re enjoying it, please don’t be selfish. Share it with other people. Give us some kind words and kind stars and thumbs up and things that happen online. But, uh, you know, we’re trying to make you better and trying to make you more efficient in how you do, um, you know, do that lawyer thing.

[00:32:32] Steve Fretzin: So, um, thanks everybody. Take care of be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.

[00:32:41] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s Check out today’s show notes.