Marco Brown: Curating Relationships to Build Referrals and Make It Rain

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Marco Brown discuss:

  • Changing your mindset to overcome limitations placed on you by yourself or your family.
  • Leveraging the knowledge of those who came before you.
  • Learn and implement the sales skills you didn’t learn in law school.
  • Leveraging your attorney referral sources.

Key Takeaways:

  • Learn how to sell. Even before you are making it rain, you can turn a potential client into a client through sales and closing.
  • You are not better than sales. As a lawyer, you sell high-level concepts (arguments, negotiations, etc.) every single day.
  • Be aggressive with the sale when you are the right person to help the potential client because you know you can help them solve their problem.
  • Not all referral sources are created equal. Question and qualify potential referral sources to understand how you can help them and they can help you.

“Really successful people curate the people around them. That’s perfectly acceptable! You want to be around the people who share your values and who benefit you the most and you can benefit them.” —  Marco Brown

Email Steve at [email protected] for a chance to audit one of his exclusive rainmaker round table groups in April!

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About Marco Brown: Marco grew up in a small village in Alaska called Cold Bay (population 85). He never did manage to graduate from high school, getting his GED before moving on to college, and eventually graduating with honors from law school.

In 2010, Marco and his wife, Demaree, moved to Utah and Marco started Brown Family Law, with no clients and no network, on the floor of their condo. They were $160,000 in student loan debt at the time.

Since then, Marco has been awarded Utah Family Law Attorney of the Year, as voted on by his peers in the Utah Bar Association. Brown Family Law has grown and helped over 4000 through divorce and family law situations in Utah, and its expanding beyond Utah to help people in other states.

In his free time, Marco spends most of his time with his wife and three kids. He also loves to cook and travel, usually to Italy. For exercise, he does what he enjoys: walking and lifting heavy things and puts them down.

#Utah#DivorceAttorney #BrownFamilyLaw

Connect with Marco Brown:  


Email: [email protected]



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LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, listen up real quick. Before we begin the show, I’d like to present my Be That Lawyer Challenge. If you’ve ever wondered how much more you could be making as an attorney, I challenge you to meet with me for 30 minutes to discuss your law firm. If I’m unable to identify ways to bring in more business for you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for our time together.
[00:00:19] I’m just that confident. Go to Fretzin. com to accept this challenge and hope to meet you soon.
[00:00:29] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:51] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody. Welcome back to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretson. I’m Mark Brettson, in case you missed what the announcer just said. And uh, this show, as you guys know, it’s all about [00:01:00] helping to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled Rainmaker. And I love when I bring on skilled Rainmakers.
[00:01:06] And today I’ve got another, I’ve got a two timer for you and Marco Brown. Good to see you, Marco. How you doing?
[00:01:10] Marco Brown: Hey, doing well. It’s uh, it’s been good since the last time we talked.
[00:01:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. You’re always dressed to the nines. I’m always impressed with the way that you dress and you just always, your class act and uh, and I always dress like a schlub.
[00:01:22] So it’s a little. You know, I’m always impressed by the, by the solid dressers.
[00:01:26] Marco Brown: It’s okay. And for everyone out there, it’s okay that you dress however you want to. Like I do. I’m bifurcated in my dress. So these are, this is all Italian clothing, like straight up Italian clothing. Cause I’m an Italophile and it’s what I do.
[00:01:39] And these are like handmade the whole bit. So I either do this where I wear cool clothes, which are like outdoor, it’s like outdoor wear, and It’s winter in Utah and I wear shorts cause I’m from Alaska and it’s just right. So there’s like, it’s totally bifurcated for me.
[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Okay.
[00:01:55] Marco Brown: A lot of times I look good.
[00:01:56] And a lot of times like, nope, I work crazy, like [00:02:00] crazy low brow stuff.
[00:02:01] Steve Fretzin: Outdoors, outdoorsy stuff. Okay. Well, very cool. Hey, um, so we love to start the show with the quote of the show and, um, you had one, you had one that you shared with me and I had to scratch my head when I heard it. So I want to hear it again, then I want to get your take on it.
[00:02:17] So, uh, lay, lay that quote of the show on us.
[00:02:21] Marco Brown: Okay. So yeah, we’ll talk about the context after, but the quote is, I don’t care that you’re ignorant. I care that you stay ignorant.
[00:02:29] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I heard that and I thought, I don’t know what that means. I think I’m ignorant. So I think that pleases you.
[00:02:34] Marco Brown: So the idea is, I say this around the law firm all the time with people, uh, lawyers have this bad habit, and I’ve done this before, but lawyers have this bad habit of pretending they know things when they don’t actually know things.
[00:02:47] And because they don’t want to seem stupid or they want to seem ignorant, but that’s just an invitation for staying ignorant, right? Like you’re just lying. So my whole thing is I it’s totally fine that you don’t know what you’re [00:03:00] talking about Just tell me you don’t know what you’re talking about and then we can talk through it and you could learn Alright, so I don’t care that you’re ignorant.
[00:03:06] I start I care that you stay ignorant and it’s also this idea that Like don’t stay ignorant, like just accept the fact that you don’t know something and then go learn it and become better at that thing. And that’s what I prize as a business owner and that’s what I prize in my team.
[00:03:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, I think continual improvement is the only path for successful people.
[00:03:27] I think, you know, we all make mistakes, we all fail. It’s what we learn and how we bounce back and how we respond that really defines us. Our careers, our lives, our families, the way that we handle things. And, you know, we just get so down about failure, down about making mistakes or being ignorant and not knowing something.
[00:03:43] And I think it’s just, it’s, it’s, that’s not, in my opinion, the appropriate way to look at it.
[00:03:49] Marco Brown: Yeah, exactly. Like, and I try this in my own life a lot. Like, I don’t care that I don’t know things. I care that I stay in the state of not knowing [00:04:00] something, right? Like that, that, that’s what it’s, that’s what it’s about.
[00:04:05] Steve Fretzin: So let’s go back. Speaking of not knowing much, I think you had sort of a rough beginning and I wanted you just to share a little bit of your background. And for those who are tuning in right now, we’ve got Marco Brown is second time on our show, owner of Brown Family Law. Yeah. And, you know, I didn’t even, I guess I didn’t know, I don’t know how I didn’t know this other than I didn’t read appropriately that you, uh, you, you came from a very small town in Alaska.
[00:04:27] Marco Brown: Yeah, I do. And this is actually, I tell this story fairly often now because I want other people, you know, first generation people or, you know, people from small places to, to understand that they can do anything. Cause I come from Old Bay, Alaska. It is on the Aleutian Peninsula. Literally out in the middle of nowhere, 85 people.
[00:04:50] When I was, when I was there as a kid, no one ever did anything coming out of cold Bay, like no one, I mean, [00:05:00] this was the kind of place where it was dry. It was a dry village in Alaska, which means there was no alcohol. And to get around that. People would snort gas like this. I know, seriously, man, like it’s better to do cocaine than snort gas.
[00:05:15] Like it’s, but this is the kind of, this is the kind of place I grew up in. Right. There were no other kids. I mean, there were a few other kids, but there weren’t really kids around. I spent tremendous amounts of time outside playing with my dogs and around bears and wolves and you know, the whole bed, like my parents now, like they would totally be thrown in jail, right?
[00:05:36] In prison for, for allowing me to do the stuff that I was able to do. But he was playing with the bears, you know, it was insanely informative. We actually had shotguns next to the door because the bears would be outside. And when we needed to go someplace and a bear was outside, we needed to shoot it in the butt with a shotgun.
[00:05:54] So it would run away. So we could go do whatever we’re going to do, right? Oh my God. It’s cool. [00:06:00] Like I love it. Uh, it, it was incredibly formative in my life and a lot of who I am is because of bears. But no one ever did anything big coming out of that place, right? Like, that’s kind of what I took as a kid.
[00:06:14] Now, thankfully, I had a grandmother who was a PhD and a professor, like, went back when women didn’t do that sort of stuff, and she passed that down to my dad. And then my mom was really bright as well. So the family dynamic was in the family expectation was that you went and you, you know, you did things right?
[00:06:35] Like you went to school, you did this kind of stuff. But, you know, even then my parents were government workers. My, my dad was the best in the world at what he did and he made like 85, 000 bucks a year doing it, right? Because he was a government worker and my mom worked for the fed, she was an air traffic controller.
[00:06:51] So they were great people, but they were middle class and, you know, I had to overcome that, you know, coming out of a middle class [00:07:00] mindset in a tiny little village and try to do something big. And, you know, that’s not particularly easy. Like I, I really had to work on myself a ton in my mindset. To overcome that, those limitations that my parents put on me, right?
[00:07:15] And it’s not that they wanted to put those on me, but the environment did it and, and they did it, you know, just kind of subconsciously. And, uh, and I, I had to work for years and years to work through that and overcome that.
[00:07:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, I know you as one of the most confident and, you know, leadership and mindset driven attorneys in the country.
[00:07:37] You know, I’ve got, you’ve been so kind to come to my Rainmaker Roundtables as a speaker. You’ve, you’ve put yourself out there to help others. I, I continually follow you on, on LinkedIn and the, the, the dear law student and trying to give advice to young lawyers and all of that. So You know, coming from, from where you did into where you are is, is amazing.
[00:07:55] What was the, the big turning point of like, how did you flip that switch to [00:08:00] not only become a lawyer, but to then, you know, become like an entrepreneur?
[00:08:05] Marco Brown: Yeah. So those are two, those are two separate things. So to become a lawyer quickly, what, what happened was again, my grandmother was the smartest woman I’ve ever met and still the smartest woman I’ve ever met.
[00:08:15] Uh, like effortlessly intelligent. So I, I looked at her and I always kind of knew like, this is what we did as, as Browns, right? We like, we went to school and we did these things. So I always knew from the time I was about eight. That I would get some sort of PhD, some sort of doctorate, right? Whether it was going to be a, a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, a scientist, whatever, like I was going to do that sort of thing.
[00:08:37] And then I had to like figure out what to do when the time came and I went through my head and my head seemed to do the things that, uh, that were necessary for lawyers to do, right? Like I thought in concepts and I thought in arguments and I like that sort of stuff was easy for me. So I figured, all right, let’s do what my mind, uh, what my mind does really well.
[00:08:56] And I became a lawyer. And now being a lawyer and being an entrepreneur [00:09:00] are two entirely different things, right? So that the lawyer thing was actually pretty easy. The entrepreneur thing was I made a choice in 2010 to start a law firm during the great recession. And I didn’t have any idea what I was doing and there were five or six years where I just walked through hell.
[00:09:18] It was very, very bad. So I was an entrepreneur only in the sense that I got myself into a situation that I probably shouldn’t have been in. And then in 15, 16, I decided, well, I’m here and I’ve done this for 5 or 6 years. So, you know, sunk costs sort of sort of situation. And I thought, let’s make the best of it.
[00:09:39] And let’s actually be an entrepreneurial. If I, if I’m going to do this thing, let’s do this thing and do it right. And that’s when you started learning, started experimenting, started just went all in with it. And, uh, but yeah, those two things were, were very, you know, one, one was way easier than, than the other.
[00:09:57] Let’s put it that way.
[00:09:58] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And it’s, it’s [00:10:00] rare that you hear a success story where someone doesn’t leverage mentors, coaches, advisors, books, content, things that. Hey, people have been here before you. You don’t have to figure this out 100 percent on your own. There’s things you can leverage. And I know like Grant Cardone and there’s others that you leaned on.
[00:10:19] Talk
[00:10:20] Marco Brown: to that. Yeah. So back in, back in 1516, the first one in, and this is, this is, I think, important for people listening because you, you do have to have mentors. And whatever the mentor is, like, whether it’s a book and or whether it’s a person, whatever he’d like, you need mentors. So I went out and define them and back in that time period, there weren’t that many at all.
[00:10:42] Now it’s like, there’s a guru forever. Yeah, tell me, tell me about it. It’s freaking nuts and it’s so nuts. But back then there just weren’t. So I went to find him and Lee Rosen was the kind of top guy I thought, and it was the one I resonated with the most, right? There were other [00:11:00] guys out there. But Lee was the one I resonated, resonated with the most.
[00:11:03] So I got in with Lee, read everything I could from him, got into his group, met a whole bunch of really cool people. A lot of people now that are very, very high level started out with Lee, right? Ryan McKean, you know, I mean, just boat loads of people. And he’s helped a lot of people do really, really well.
[00:11:22] So that was kind of the first thing. And then, you know, you were fine over time, kind of who you are and who you identify with. And, and, uh, you know, Grant Cardone kind of, kind of took that place, the top spot for me, you know, but I’m always, I’m always trying to learn from, you know, from people. Alex Formosi is a guy that
[00:11:42] Steve Fretzin: I’ve been, I got into him a few years ago and he’s, he’s solid.
[00:11:45] He’s absolutely
[00:11:46] Marco Brown: solid. He really is solid. He takes that kind of area diet, kind of oddly area diet. Cause he looks like a weirdo. He
[00:11:53] Steve Fretzin: looks, he looks like a gym hound. I mean, you’re in the backgrounds of gyms and you go, yeah, that makes a lot of [00:12:00] sense.
[00:12:00] Marco Brown: Yeah. But he’s also really, really bright. So yeah. And he, and he takes a very intellectual kind of, kind of bent on things, which I enjoy.
[00:12:07] So you just have to find your, your, your mentors and your people who resonate with you. And that takes a long time though. Like I’ve gone through hundreds of books. And tens of thousands of hours of, you know, figuring this stuff out and, uh, to find, you know, probably the three people that, uh, and you know, the five books that have really moved the needle for me.
[00:12:29] Yeah.
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[00:14:24] Steve Fretzin: And I know one of the things I wanted to kind of talk to you about today was about, you know, I have a business development philosophy, um, in my first book, Sales Free Selling, of a very specific process of how I help lawyers obtain Opportunities and then lock up those opportunities and then maintain and retain those opportunities and, and, and involved with, you know, how do you get referrals and cross marketing, all kinds of stuff like that.
[00:14:47] And I just wanted to kind of get your general philosophy of business development, because as everyone knows, it’s not taught in law school. It is a learned skill. There are people that say, oh, he’s a natural rainmaker or she’s a natural rainmaker. [00:15:00] There’s some level of, of maybe personality that goes into it or some, you know, glad handing back slapping things that maybe work better in the seventies, eighties, nineties.
[00:15:08] And today I think it’s definitely more of a learned skill and obviously it’s why I’m in the space, but it’s sort of your philosophy of business development and how lawyers can make it rain.
[00:15:19] Marco Brown: Yeah, I think, I think there’s some separate skills that need to be learned in this. And the skill that I, I would start with.
[00:15:29] This is what I would tell law students. Let’s put it this way. I’d say start with sales. So learn how to sell because you’re probably not going to rain, make a ton in the beginning, right? You’re probably going to be employed by somebody who’s going to rain, make, and then you’re going to do the work. But you, what you can do is you can sell, right?
[00:15:49] You can sit down with somebody and make a potential client become a client, right? Through sales and closing. And that’s probably going to be your first opportunity. So [00:16:00] if you can get really, really good at sales and closing, especially in the beginning as a foundational behavior and skillset, then that’s what I would do.
[00:16:10] Uh, I think that’s incredibly valuable. Like I, you know, for my attorneys, if they can, if they can close potential clients, they’re making a bunch more money than they otherwise would be. Okay. I think that’s incredibly important.
[00:16:22] Steve Fretzin: But isn’t that scary? I mean, I know that you’re telling lawyers that’s the way to go, but I know in working with attorneys, just the word sales makes them tremor.
[00:16:30] And then the idea that they have to, you know, learn sales. I mean that, that’s great advice, right? I’m all for it. But like somebody’s, you know, and the people listening to this show, I think get it. I think there’s a lot of attorneys that don’t, that don’t get it.
[00:16:44] Marco Brown: Yep. And, and they don’t. And I’m, Look, I’m not, um, I’m not the guy that’s going to try to sugarcoat this for you, right?
[00:16:52] Look, if you don’t think, if you think you’re better than sales, like you’re not get over yourself. Okay. All you do as a [00:17:00] lawyer is sell high level concepts. You sell arguments. You sell negotiations, you sell this, that, and the other. And if you think you’re better than a used car salesman or, you know, somebody who sells door to door, you’re not, man.
[00:17:14] I have learned so much as a lawyer from those people and how to sell. And, and that has made me a significantly better lawyer who does better in court and makes a lot more money and serves a lot more people. So it, that is just, yeah. Pure arrogance on our part as attorneys and I do not stand for it. Like I can’t, I just can’t stand that sort of stuff.
[00:17:39] Like we’re not better than other people. We learn from everybody, but we are salespeople fundamentally. And we need to accept that. And we need to just be the best at it that we possibly can. Yeah, that’s the way, that’s the way I approach that. So that’s that foundational skill that I tell every, every attorney, they need to, they need to kind of master it.
[00:17:58] And then you can rain make and rain making is [00:18:00] different. I mean, there’s elements of sales and closing and rain making for sure, but rain making is really going out and getting people to, you know, to come in, to bring in leads, right? Sales and closing is about closing leads, like making leads clients, but rain making is about bringing those people in.
[00:18:16] And at that point. Really, that’s, that’s about relationships, and that’s about giving. So, the more you give to people that are in a position to send people to you, right, to send leads to you, the more leads you’re gonna get. So you need to identify the network of people who are going to be able to give you clients or potential clients and then you just need to give and give and give and expect absolutely nothing in return from those people, like just give to them as much as you possibly can and create really strong relationships.
[00:18:50] With those individuals but actual genuine relationships like to be that jerk who’s super utilitarian because everyone hates that guy or that gal like we all do it like we all know [00:19:00] it too we all hate those people so don’t do that like just don’t expect anything just give as much as you possibly can
[00:19:05] Steve Fretzin: but but there’s two conflicting.
[00:19:07] Mindsets about when you say sale so so there’s sales like convincing closing. Aggressive pushy tactics right and then there’s. You’re saying given and help others and be that person that, you know, that lawyer that’s going to help others. And I think that’s where the confusion is. And so I would take a step back, Marco, and say, sales today, isn’t about convincing and pushing and aggressiveness.
[00:19:33] It’s probably a lot about listening, questioning, understanding, and allowing the buyer to be walked through a buying decision to come up with the idea that this is a great fit and we need to work together. You’re the solution that I’ve been looking for, and let’s move forward. And so it’s, it’s just a much softer play today than it used to be.
[00:19:51] It doesn’t mean we don’t talk closing. We do, but I think it’s, it’s having a model that everyone can feel good and feel like this is a fit. This [00:20:00] is, this is a, like. I have a problem. You have a solution. I trust you to solve it. That’s the, that’s the lawyer I want.
[00:20:07] Marco Brown: Yeah. No, that, that’s absolutely, that’s absolutely correct.
[00:20:09] Like you can’t, it’s dishonest to try to sell somebody something they don’t.
[00:20:14] Steve Fretzin: Right. Right. And I think that’s where the confusion is, is when I feel sold to because somebody has an agenda of what I need to do, whether it’s my best interest or not, that’s when it feels icky. And if it’s spun around, and that’s why the sales free selling has become so popular, it’s because we’re still selling, but we’re doing it in a way that makes everybody feel good, and that we’re starting off the relationship and the solution and the, the, the contract together in a way that everyone is happy, everyone feels satisfied.
[00:20:46] Marco Brown: Yeah, that, that, that’s absolutely, you’re absolutely spot on. I, I’m gonna add something. Please, because I think that that’s the way to, that’s the way to do it. When you get to that place where you have determined that you are the right fit for this [00:21:00] person and this person needs you and that person knows it right and they want to move forward, but they’re just scared or whatever it is, like they’re giving objection, whatever.
[00:21:09] I know a lot of attorneys who will not overcome the objection, right? Because they don’t want to seem pushy. Whatever way you want to articulate it, that’s incorrect. Like you have at that point, if you’ve determined that this person can benefit from what you do, and you’re the best person to help them, you have a, you have an obligation at that point to push them and to use every, every ethical tactic that you have to make that person a client and you need to look, you never lose a sale because of what you say, but you lose a thousand sales because the stuff you don’t say, right?
[00:21:44] So be aggressive in that, in that context. Totally, totally fine. But do not be aggressive if you are not the right person to help them with this problem and you could actually solve that problem.
[00:21:56] Steve Fretzin: But I think what you’re saying is a lot of the reasons that things don’t [00:22:00] close, clients don’t close, is because there’s hidden agendas or there’s fear or there’s things that are hiding beneath the surface.
[00:22:07] Our job is to uncover it. It’s to find out what’s real and expose it so that we can deal with it. It’s like, if it’s hidden, we can’t deal with it. If we expose it and bring it to the surface, we have an opportunity to say, Oh, it was just about the money. That was the issue. You were concerned about the money.
[00:22:22] Let’s talk about that. Now it’s out in front and we can deal with it versus it being underneath where we don’t know why they just haven’t called us back. Right.
[00:22:31] Marco Brown: Yep, that’s, that’s exactly right. And that’s what lawyers don’t do. Right? They, they will accept that somebody will tell them, Oh, I don’t have the money right now.
[00:22:42] That is almost never the case. So your, your job at that point, if again, you are the right person to help them with this problem. Uh, your job is to get them to tell you what their actual problem is right and to be they have the courage of your convictions to sit there and say, [00:23:00] yeah, I understand what you’re telling me.
[00:23:01] So what’s really going on here? Right? And that’s difficult to do. And that and that can be tough, but you have an obligation to do it because you’re the person who can help this other this individual the best with this problem, you have an obligation to do that. So learn the skills. Again, this goes back to learn the skills.
[00:23:19] And then, and then implement the skills.
[00:23:23] Steve Fretzin: It really is. And there’s, um, the second part of what you mentioned is not about how to, you know, handle objections or, or close, close business and all that. It was the other piece, the rainmaking of how do we generate, um, the leads coming in, not through a huge budget on pay per click, but through relationships.
[00:23:41] And when you mentioned giving, and I’m, you know, obviously a huge proponent of that. I’ve been doing that for 20 years and it’s really a pursuit. I think part of the problem is lawyers have a hard time identifying. Who are the best people to give to that have the ability to reciprocate? So in family law, maybe that’s financial planners.
[00:23:59] Maybe [00:24:00] that’s estate planners. Maybe that’s other lawyers that are more likely to run into family and divorce situations than others. And can you talk through that a little bit?
[00:24:11] Marco Brown: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Attorneys just don’t know. So, and I didn’t know what it, so what I did is I went to kind of figure it out.
[00:24:20] And what I found is that, you know, really since like the time of Cicero, like the best referrals that lawyers get are from other lawyers. So that’s where you start, right? Start with that. Yeah. And then the question becomes, well, what other types of lawyers. Should I be talking to that are going to give me these types of clients?
[00:24:38] And maybe you have a really, really particular. Uh, practice area that there’s a very, there’s another very specific folk, uh, practice area that is, you know, that’s going to get you, get you attorneys and it’s really obscure or something like that, but usually not. So what I found was the, the attorneys who interact the most with the public are those [00:25:00] that give the most referrals because they interact with the, with a wide variety of people.
[00:25:04] So that is PI attorneys and criminal defense attorneys.
[00:25:09] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:25:10] Marco Brown: Right. Like those were just the two. So I just played the numbers. So I get to know a lot of PI attorneys and I get to know a lot of criminal offense attorneys. And these are the people who give us the most referrals again, because they’re interacting with the, with the most number of people.
[00:25:22] And then family law attorneys can as well, because we interact with tons and tons of people, you know, just kind of at random. Uh, that’s where I would start. With this whole thing, but then, you know, over time, it does need to be become more refined and then you need to move out from attorneys like you can actually, you can actually really build an incredibly good career on like 20 referral attorney referral sources, just 20, right?
[00:25:47] That’s amazing. But if you want to grow, then at some point, you’re going to have to go beyond that and you’re going to have to identify other referral sources. Uh, again, most of those referral sources that are going to be really good for you are going to be ones that interact with a huge [00:26:00] amount, uh, with the most people in the general public, I think.
[00:26:03] Steve Fretzin: Well, so general public for certain area practices, if you’re dealing in like corporate MNA and other big stuff, then yeah, you’re going to want to deal with other corporate attorneys that are dealing with the similar types of clients just in different areas.
[00:26:15] Marco Brown: Yeah, exactly. You’re going to be, you’re going to have to be more refined in those types of areas than you will for a guy like me, because I just do straight business to consumer.
[00:26:25] Steve Fretzin: Right. Right. Right. And I’m going to be very generous and give one of the top takeaways lines that I teach every day in how to not only, I mean, finding those referral sources, yes, Marco, the other thing is they’re not all created equal. Someone that’s been in personal injury for a day is very different than someone that’s been doing it and built a reputation and clientele over 10 years.
[00:26:47] So when I, when I have my clients meet with other attorneys and other referral sources, After they’ve built a relationship, after they’ve, they’ve done a lot of good in that meeting, I say, you know, how often, I tell them to ask, how often in a given [00:27:00] year are you running into divorce cases that, you know, you don’t have, that you don’t handle, but you would want to hand out and give to someone qualified?
[00:27:08] And someone says, I don’t know, 20 or 30 a year. Well, that’s someone you’re going to want to sink your claws into much different than if they answer, I don’t even know in the last 10 years how often I’ve run into that, which may or may not be true. So there’s, there’s questioning and qualifying that I’m recommending people do in order to understand that there’s, they’re not all created equal.
[00:27:27] Marco Brown: That’s exactly correct. So it’s the, it’s the power, it’s Pareto principle, right? It’s the 80, right, right. 80, 20. Sure. You’re going to get. Okay. Out of a group of 100 PI attorneys, you’re going to have five that are going to give you like 80 percent of your. So yeah, you do need to, you do need to find those people,
[00:27:43] Steve Fretzin: but again, you got to get through, you got to get through a number of them to find the right ones.
[00:27:48] It’s like dating, right? You just don’t date one person and hopefully don’t take one person. That’s it. You go on 10 dates and out of the 10, there’s one or two that you really felt strongly about that you want to ask out again. And that’s how we have to look at networking and [00:28:00] to some degree.
[00:28:01] Marco Brown: Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s very, very true.
[00:28:03] Like it is a numbers game in that, in that sense. Now a lot of people, uh, get a little squeamish about this because they think that they’re, you’re just curating the, the people that you’re around, right? You’re not really giving to everybody. It’s, it’s, we’re kind of taught that we shouldn’t just be friends with the people that advantage us the most and that sort of thing.
[00:28:27] That’s the, I don’t buy that. That that’s the weirdest thing in the world. Like, honestly, like who has all their friends just at random, like if that’s the way you’re living your life, that like your friends are really just people that, that have randomly come into your life, then I don’t think you’re living a great life, like, I don’t think you’re really living a super successful life.
[00:28:45] I just don’t know a lot of successful people that do that. Really successful people curate the people around them. And that’s perfectly acceptable. Like you want to be around the people that share your values and that benefit you the most, and you can benefit and that sort of thing. [00:29:00] That isn’t to say that you aren’t good and giving to every person that you meet because you should be, because that’s just being a good person.
[00:29:08] But no man, like you should be curating the people that are around you that are in your inner circle. I don’t know any successful person. Really successful person that doesn’t do that.
[00:29:18] Steve Fretzin: Well, and that’s why they say it’s all about relationships. It’s not, they’re not saying that just as a, as a, you know, as a, as a line that you throw out for no reason, I mean, relationships are what create business and sustain business for all of us.
[00:29:30] If we didn’t have relationships, what would we have? Nothing, not much, not much. Um, Marco, so great, man. I’ve already got like a page of notes on the things that you’ve said and the quotes that I want to share with, with people on social, um, let’s move to our, our, um, game changing podcast. Uh, the Jordan B.
[00:29:47] Peterson show is, is the one that you seem to love. Yeah. So I,
[00:29:51] Marco Brown: I used to be a really huge podcast, uh, person and I would just, I would listen to them constantly and then listen to audio books constantly. And I’ve kind of [00:30:00] backed, I listened to the audio books still, but I backed out the podcast. Cause you can just get down into rabbit holes.
[00:30:05] Yeah. And it’s been huge amounts of time. So Jordan B. Peterson, Jordan Peterson is the guy that, uh, I think he’s one of the three smartest guys that, that I know that exists right now. And this seemed to live to lab is the other one. Really? Those two are like my top two. And I’ll listen to anything they say at any time on any subject matter.
[00:30:26] And he’s just that guy. Like when I get on the treadmill in the morning or when I’m lifting weights in the morning or something like that, and I put on his podcast, like my brain’s on fire and Uh, my day is better for that. Like it organizes my thoughts. It really gets, you know, gets my intellectual juices run in and I love it.
[00:30:45] Like it’s not just wasted time, which so many podcasts can be like, I learn tremendous amounts every time I listen to them.
[00:30:53] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I’m sort of like a podcast, uh, sponge. So like, you know, if I, I hear a great about one, a great one, just like a great [00:31:00] restaurant, right? I want to go try that restaurant. I want to try that podcast.
[00:31:03] And I’ll definitely be checking out that podcast. And as we wrap up one, of course, thank our wonderful sponsors, Green Cardigan Marketing, Lawmatics, and Get Staffed Up, all great partners of mine, partners of the show. And Mark, if people want to reach
[00:31:15] Marco Brown: out, Get
[00:31:16] Steve Fretzin: Staffed Up, right? Oh my God. Yeah. Brett Trembley, a shout out to Brett.
[00:31:20] Um, people, people tell me, Every day, how amazing my social media, my video, all the things I put out are, and that’s not me. I mean, it’s me in the con created the content like this, but I’m not the one that’s putting everything out. It’s Sergio who’s behind the scenes in Bogota, Colombia. Shout out to Sergio for crying out loud.
[00:31:37] But yeah, it’s all, these are all great partners to advance the interests of a law firm and, and save time, make money, do what you’re meant to do. Not the crap you’re not. Exactly. And Marco, people want to reach out to you and hear more about and, and, you know, want to, you know, network with you. They want to send work your way.
[00:31:57] What’s the best way for them to reach you? [00:32:00]
[00:32:00] Marco Brown: Uh, so the best followers on LinkedIn, I don’t really do other social media at this point. Um, but that, that’s the best one. You just search Marco Brown and you can get it. If you want to, if you want to talk to me, like I’m willing to talk to anybody and help anybody I can.
[00:32:14] Cause. Yeah. You know, like I said, I walked through hell for like five or six years because in large part, because no other attorney would actually tell me like how to be successful and not try to take my money. Just, you know, tell them, tell me how to be successful. So if you need to reach out and you want to talk about anything, totally fine.
[00:32:30] You can email me at Marco at Brown family law. com and um, I’ll help you however I can.
[00:32:37] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and Marco’s not blowing smoke. I mean, I’ve, I’ve introduced him to attorneys and he’s been unbelievably helpful to them, uh, mainly because I think, you know, you’ve, you’ve sort of figured out how to run the, the business of a law firm versus being in the weeds.
[00:32:51] You know, doing cases and, and doing all the, all that stuff, you really focus on the rainmaking and the management of the firm, which a lot of attorneys aspire to, but [00:33:00] don’t ever sort of get there. So I, I’ve been, I’ve referred you a few people to kind of help them understand what you’re, what you’re doing.
[00:33:05] But man, I just, I’m just so honored and pleased that you’re, uh, in my life, that you’re on the show and that you continue to share your, your knowledge and wisdom with, with people like my audience. So, man, thank you so much. Hey, thank you for having me on. It’s fantastic. Yeah. And as soon as I hang up with Marco, I’m going to ask him all about Italy because he’s, he’s knows everything about Italy and I got a plan.
[00:33:25] If I got a plan, a, a, a great vacation with my, with my beautiful wife, uh, Lisa. So, um, Hey everybody, thank you for spending time with us again on the be that lawyer podcast. Uh, you know, again, if you didn’t get some great ideas today, or you’re sleeping in behind the don’t sleep at the wheel. Um, but listen, take, take care.
[00:33:40] Thanks for being a listener. We’ll, uh, talk to you real soon.
[00:33:47] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website for additional information
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