Mark Hunter: The Evolution of Business Development

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Mark Hunter discuss:

  • Why lawyers are bad at planning for business development.
  • Putting the work in to get ahead as early as you can.
  • How the pandemic has affected business development.
  • What lawyers can do for their clients and their strategic partners.

Key Takeaways:

  • There are a lot of tools out there to help you plan so you run your day, not let your day run you.
  • Start understanding client services and business relationships now. It is an important part of building your business.
  • The conversations that used to be had over dinner or coffee can still be had over phone or Zoom. The relationships may have changed if you have not kept up on those conversations during the pandemic.
  • There are a lot of ways that you can serve your clients and strategic partners. The better you know them (not just their file) the better you can serve those in your network.

“BD (business development) is a skill that anyone can learn if they’re willing to put the time and effort into it. But like with any skill, you’ve got to put the time and effort into it to be successful.” —  Mark Hunter

Connect with Mark Hunter:  



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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyer, business, people, clients, development, client, pandemic, marketing, rainmakers, zoom, helping, firm, questions, law, relationships, attorney, effort, listening, practice, talk


Mark Hunter, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Mark Hunter  [00:00]

PD is a skill that anyone can learn if they’re willing to put the time and effort into it. But like with any skill, you got to put the time and effort into it to be successful.


Narrator  [00:13]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:35]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day. It’s another opportunity to grow your law practice. Hopefully this show has been helpful if it has, I’d love for you to give us a positive review on Amazon on any of the podcast channels that you’re utilizing. It helps us build our audience and helps more lawyers to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and skilled Rainmaker. And so share the love, you know, look, this, you’re not paying for the show. So you might as well do something nice for me and the other people in the legal industry and say something nice if you like it, if you don’t have anything nice to say, as my father used to say, don’t say it at all. Okay, so moving along. Of course, you know, my job is to continue to bring good guests, I’ve got one for you. Today, I’m going to introduce Mark in a minute. We’ve got two sponsors to thank we’ve got legalese marketing, who’s helping lawyers all over the country to improve their social media, their newsletter, their website, their law, Maddix, all that stuff, automate, automate, automate everything you can. And of course money, Penny, who’s doing live chat on the websites, and also doing live reception. And they’ve got a really special offer. Now, if you guys want to get a two free two week free trial, give them a shout. Money. Penny. So I was talking to Mark, by the way, welcome to the show, Mark. How you doing? Doing great.



All right, awesome, man. And you


Steve Fretzin  [01:53]

gave me a quote. And it’s not it’s famous only because you’ve been saying it. And it’s you’re in and this is what you’re saying to your attorneys that give you stuff to do. As the Director of Client Development and Marketing at Hicks. And Morley is your lack of planning does not make an emergency for me. Right? Yeah, I



love that are true.


Steve Fretzin  [02:11]

Yeah. So they’re bringing stuff to you. And they’re saying, hey, you know, I just, I’m on this podcast, and I need you to market it. And by the way, you know, it’s running today. So get on it. Right?



It happens every day. And it could be something as that it could be as, oh, I’m meeting a client today. And I need to put in some materials or I want to take some pens, like whatever it could be. You’ve they’ve had the meeting setup for three months.


Steve Fretzin  [02:33]

Right? Right. Right. Happens all the time. So So I maybe one of the the topics we’ll cover today in a moment is is why lawyers are so poor at planning, I mean planning for business development, planning for marketing planning, you know, for when they’re going to reach out to you with something that they need, you know, some public relations on and they’re waiting until like the last second to do it. Before we get into that though, I’d love for you to share your your background, your again, your you’re not, you know, practicing attorney, you’re someone working at a law firm in that is the marketing and the business development. You’re like the go to person for the firm. So give me give us your background leading up to that your current role.



Correct. So see, I’ve never, I’m not a lawyer, I’ve never, never one pass the bar exam or even tried to go to law school. I’ve been doing marketing business development for 25 years ish. from business to business and business to consumer. I got into the legal space, mid 2000s, or maybe early 2000s. And I’ve worked on both the management side and the plaintiff side. So I can see both both sides of what’s been going on and the differences that people have in how they practice and how they actually are going after business.


Steve Fretzin  [03:39]

Yeah, and you’ve got a name Mark Hunter, that seems like someone that would have to be in business development. That’s just there’s nothing else you could do with a name like Mark Hunter.



I try to do what I’m supposed to do. Right? Do what you’re supposed to do. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [03:52]

So let’s go back to then that earlier point which is planning so I you know, every lawyer I work with and talk to doesn’t even if they say they have a plan, I generally find that it’s a list of names, or it’s a bunch of events that they think they’re going to go to or hope that they’re going to go to the wire lawyers generally so bad at planning for the year planning for the week to get the business development done marketing done, or just to getting their work done. Maybe



a lot of it has to do with how they compartmentalize what they’re doing, right. I mean, a lot of lawyers use tickler systems to say, oh, I need to make sure I get back onto this file or I’ve got this dates are important. So they have ticklers coming into them all the time saying when they need to be on to something. So in our, you know, when we were just joking about that meeting they’re having with a client that they did three months ago, they scheduled the appointment did the three months and then it was like, oh, no, it’s tomorrow. I need to be looking for something all Yeah. So yeah, they don’t have time in their day to always be thinking about these components. The ones who do put the effort in and put the time in and you know whether that’s calendar or items each week. Other ones are a bit more successful because they’re constantly doing it. They’re constantly thinking about business development.


Steve Fretzin  [05:06]

I mean, should they be learning, I don’t know if it’s this is a law school thing, or maybe it’s a, you know, first three years in law, they should be learning time management, they should be learning the skills of, you know, like a David Allen getting things done. And there’s a ton of books time mastery, you know, all these books, that Wolverhampton that are helping them to get organized with how they’re going to plan ahead how they’re going to accomplish their day, instead of letting the day have them, they’re going to have the day. So I don’t know if that’s something that should really be pushed, like I think, you know, teenagers should be learning time management, they’re not. So it’s just me



know, you’re onto something there that the challenge becomes of those first few years of lawyering, they’re really worried about just getting their billable hours, right. Yeah, that’s what the big concern is, how do I get my time who I need to talk to internally to get me some files sent my way? So I can get that 1618 2000? Or whatever the your firm is looking for? A billable work? Yeah. And so that’s where the focus ends up.


Steve Fretzin  [06:02]

Yeah. And also, I think learning the law, right, becoming a good attorney, I think if you’re not, if you’re not learning how to be, you know, the best attorney you can be, then you know, business development and marketing is going to, it’s gonna go south pretty quick, anyway.



Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of do talk about this, or have an idea of like, the life of a lawyer of what they do in their business development. And, you know, when you’re in your 20s, you’re, you’re 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Right? Like, you want everything now, and you think you’re a star, and you can do everything better than everyone else can weather no matter what their experience, like, you know, in your 30s, maybe some things start to click, and you kind of you’ve been putting in some effort, you’re starting to see some work that’s happened, it’s gotten a bit stronger, a bit better. But those who didn’t put that work in in their 20s, are wondering why they’re not getting ahead. So there’s that time management, you’re talking about, like, what did they do? Or what didn’t they do is they’re moving forward. Again, you’re moving forward in your 40s, all of a sudden, you’re seeing that success, and you’re getting recognized for work you’re doing. If you’ve been putting that effort in those other people are now questioning, did I even pick the right profession? Like, am I even going to be doing what I want to do? Yeah, and it keeps going. So I’m sure in your 50s, you know, you’re working on things that are more challenging. Business Development is all of a sudden, easy, right? Because you’ve now been doing it for 30 years. Now, you’re questioning why those 20 Somethings and 30 Somethings aren’t doing what you why they’re not following your footsteps. Right, right. And then you know, when you’re in your 60s, knowing you’re kind of just working for pleasure, like if you’ve been in private practice, you’ve probably made enough money that you can retire quite happily, but you’re actually loved the law, and you want to keep working. So you have your mindset changes again. Yeah, I think that


Steve Fretzin  [07:40]

might want to keep you keep your mind sharp, maybe I know, my father retired at 65. And I think he probably should have gone to 7075 just because of the general like just the enjoyment of the law, but also the just the activity of the brain solving problems and interacting with people versus you know, figuring out what you’re going to eat for lunch or playing solitaire.



Exactly. And so what we’re trying to do, in our firm to kind of change that mindset a bit is, I know a lot of firms will do, you know, the one day associate training on business development, right, here’s your, your, your Saturday, or whatever it is, here’s your one day of business development training, guess. Good luck, you now know everything, go do it all. And they assume that that’s okay. And you know it with our firm, we’ve kind of broken that down now and kind of created a bit of a three year term for those first, the first three years of practice, we’re like, we’re only going to give you the stuff you need to know, at the time you need to know it. Yeah. If you just started practicing law, chances are you don’t need to know how to write an RFP. Yeah. You’re not gonna be you’re not gonna be good at it anyways. Right? So push that out a few years, but we’re, you know, how do you actually start understanding client service or business relationships, that’s the kind of thing they need to learn early on. Yeah, to your point, going back to time management, and it’s been letting them know that you need to put that time and effort into it to make it your part of who you are, and what you’re going to grow into.


Steve Fretzin  [09:02]

You know, it’s interesting Mark, I interact with, you know, folks in your role on a pretty regular basis, and I spend half my time talking them out of paying me to work with them. And I tell them, you can give me your your problem children, you can give me your deer in the headlights, you can give me all these people to help them because you see potential that they’re going to build a book of business, and they’re going to be the future of the firm. The reality is that maybe one or two out of 10 are going to actually do it and put in the effort and the time and have the interest. So I try to actually tie so look, I can do a presentation and give them you know, half a day or an hour or so 90 minutes to give them an overview. But ultimately, that should lead to some interest with one or two individuals not 20 or 30. Because that’s just the that’s my experience has been. There’s an ambition and interest in of vision for the future that lawyers need to have to want to learn business development to make that a part of their job, not just billing hours. Are you sort of seeing that Same thing as far as like that, that they’re needing that type of a mindset or is it it’s something that anyone can learn and, and do across the board?



I think, first of all, it’s a BD is a skill that anyone can learn if they’re willing to put the time and effort into it. But like with any skill, you got to put the time and effort into it to be successful. Right? Yeah. 100% there’s not everyone’s Rainmaker. Not everyone’s cut out for it. It’s not they’re not their passion, not what they want to do. Yeah. And so when you think of it in that context, who are the ones you want to focus on? And I’m with you, 100%, I want to focus on the ones who actually want to get something out of it. Yeah. You know, what I will say is, legal industry isn’t unique in this aspect of promoting people, or making people higher up that are doing something that you like. So if you think of an r&d company, they pick, the VP of r&d, the director of r&d, whatever it is, is often the engineer or whoever who’s created the great stuff. doesn’t mean they’re a good leader doesn’t mean they know how to run a department doesn’t even they know how to do that. But they’ve created the best stuff. Right? Right. And Eagle we do a lot the same, right? We are rainmakers, the guys who are the biggest builders, we end up making them, adding them to practice leaders or executive teams, or we take them away from what they’re really good at. Where we might want to give them some more time to do the BD. That’s helping the firm.


Steve Fretzin  [11:20]

Yeah, I mean, in the States, it’s a lot of of rainmakers that do millions of dollars that can elevate it to the managing partner, and it ends up being, you know, they see it as as a possible win in the sense that, hey, now I’ve got this title that I think I can utilize to continue to grow my business. And then what they realize after the fact is, wait a second, now I’m dealing with all the children, and all their problems and all the babysitting that has to occur and all the moving parts. And now I’m not able to either practice law the way I want her, I’m not able to do the rainmaking that I was so wonderful at doing so it’s interesting how we do elevate people for reasons that maybe aren’t the right reasons,



right. And all of a sudden, they’ve got 800 hours of unbillable time a year that they didn’t have before.


Steve Fretzin  [12:02]

And maybe not getting paid either for that. Right? Because they took on a volunteer position. So that’s right. Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s interesting. So in Canada, curious to know about BD and marketing and the what the warriors were doing, pre pandemic. And then since the pandemic and then coming out of the pandemic, you kind of walk me through, like what they were doing before what they were doing during the pandemic, and now coming out of it. Sure.



I mean, pre pandemic, people were doing everything from attending sporting events, going out for lunches, all those kind of normal, normal things that we were all doing. It was not educational, but what have you. Once that stopped. And it became a challenge. I actually know. One lawyer I worked with for many years, his whole business development was taking people to hockey games and basketball games, steak dinner hockey game basketball game, he was out twice a week, throughout the year doing that. Yeah, well, since those shut down, he didn’t know how to do business development otherwise, right. And he ended up. I mean, he was close enough to the end of his career anyways, but he’s actually retired.


Steve Fretzin  [13:02]

Okay, now you’re now he’s now he’s got plenty of time for hockey games.



That’s right. But now he has to pay for himself, Ah, shoot. But you know, those people that didn’t transition into something else, during the last couple of years, are really are going to be missing out now. Like, they didn’t make the effort to reach out to someone and say, Hello, how are you doing? Yeah, what you used to do over dinner or a coffee. If they weren’t doing that over zoom, or a telephone call or text, those relationships, or chicken will have changed. And so someone else might have gotten into those relationships started building up better. So the people who made that effort during last couple years are going to be very successful, because now you’re going to be able to say, Okay, we don’t need to do this on Zoom. Let’s go get that cup of coffee. Instead, we can talk a bit more about more than just the law. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [13:49]

were there one or two things that you were suggesting to your attorneys they do to pivot from the in person to using Zoom more effectively, or like, I’ll give you an example, one of my clients, actually, a couple of them were sending bottles of wine to their clients. And then they would have a bottle. And they would do like a wine tasting, let’s have a cocktail together a bottle, a glass of wine together, resume as a way to stay connected, at least we’re talking about the wine, what do you think of it and all that? Anything like that are different than that, that you were recommending at the time for people to stay top of mind?



We’re doing a lot of similar things. So any sort of trying to make a social event? Virtual? Yeah, it’s tough, right? It’s that it’s just definitely not the same experience. You can’t have those side conversations with people if you’re in a group of five or 10, or whatever it is. So those were a challenge. What we did talk a lot about was actually just picking up the phone and calling people Yeah, and not doing it over zoom. Okay, so many people didn’t want to there was a point that too much zoom was too much. Now that said, one thing I’ve talked about a lot is zoom has changed what we think of people or I shouldn’t say change how we think people but have taught us more about each other. So as we record this, we’re doing it on zoom. Yep, I can see your background, I can see your Jordan Jersey in the background and what have you, we could talk about something like that, because I know what your home is like now, before you would never have known that you wouldn’t see a child walking in behind somebody or the cat walking by or the dog barking in the background. So we’ve actually become a bit more intimate in how we know people. Because we there isn’t that barrier has has changed. Yeah. So you have to be cognizant of what, how that change and how that differed in those relationships. So in some ways, it’s actually made it stronger. But you do need to get back in face to face and seeing people.


Steve Fretzin  [15:36]

Yeah, my favorite is the messy bed, someone will be in their bedroom and there’s this like a messy bed not made and I’m like, okay, is that nice, nice zoom presence there pal, your messy, your messy sheets and bed. Crazy stuff.


Jordan Ostroff  [15:50]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:12]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:30]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:50]

Very cool, thanks. So coming out of the pandemic, we’re getting back into face to face, we’re getting back to kind of business as usual. But now we’ve got this extra tool of zoom and phone that we’re using it maybe another level. So as a lawyer in the business development, marketing space, who’s sort of winning, and doing things kind of the way that they need to be done today, and who’s losing as a relates to, you know, maybe just being lost in, in the shuffle?



Sure, well, the person with the dirty sheets is probably gonna,


Steve Fretzin  [17:19]

that’s a that’s a losing situation, it’s



a losing situation. Well, another thing we noticed during the pandemic is the number of RFPs that clients were putting out, did go down, okay, because a lot of people were just trying to figure out what they needed to do to keep afloat or keep their staff engaged, or whatever it might be. And so they kind of just, if there was clauses to keep things going, they kept them going rather than bringing them out again. So you’re going to see a lot of opportunity come back, as those contracts really do expire, and they need to get out there. But what zoom has allowed in that area of business development is maybe you can work in areas you weren’t working in before, right, you don’t have any of the travel restrictions. You can have a personal relationship with somebody virtual that you didn’t have before, and maybe you can take on files or take on clients that are outside of your typical jurisdiction.


Steve Fretzin  [18:10]

So for me, I think there’s there’s opportunity, and I think what I’m what I’m doing is I’m talking to attorneys everyday, I’m asking them about their, what they’re doing for business development, marketing, and I’m getting like a page of notes generally on their issues, challenges, frustrations, concern. And what I find in many cases, and maybe you’ll see that you see this too, is that there’s like a pile of money sitting in front of them on a table and they’re walking around it. Maybe that’s because they’re not calling their clients, maybe it’s because they don’t understand how to effectively cross market. They’re not attending events that are going to be fruitful, things like that. Are you seeing that too, that there’s there’s people and there’s things there’s money to be made? It’s just about, they just need their direction to do it.



Yeah, I mean, that kind of goes back to your point, though, about who are the rainmakers and who aren’t? Right? Right. So it’s easier to skirt around the things when, when they’re not fed to you. You’re not having that that client event isn’t being hosted in your office, and you know, to just show up for kids at a restaurant across the street, and you need to do it. If you’re not putting that effort into reach out to your clients, then there is money to be made, you know, to your point you’re you’re missing out on some potential dollars, that there are potential relationships because somebody else did. And I think that’s the thing, we always have to remember somebody else’s will end up out there and hustle a little harder, newer.


Steve Fretzin  [19:27]

So I think it’s about about connectivity follow up and follow through for lawyers. Because if they’re, if they’re just satisfied in their relationships with their clients, and their strategic partners, referral partners, whatever we want to call them, and they’re not staying proactive in how they touch them communicate, get in front of, et cetera. That’s where things seem to be falling apart. I think that’s it’s what I’m hearing from you. Yeah.



For how many decades have we talked about the six or seven touches throughout the year right? And yeah, and if you got to have some of those things have to be personal and I’ll be business for related, you gotta be able to reach out and say, you know, how, how’s the family? How are you doing? I mean, mental health has been a huge one on this, right? So people are just a question of how you’re doing can go along with?


Steve Fretzin  [20:11]

Well, I let me add something to that mark. And maybe we can play a little game here called, what can you do for them. And so let’s let’s talk through what lawyers can do for their clients and for their strategic partners. And if you come up with a couple, and I come up with a couple, someone listening might be like, wait a second, I’ve got now 567 things that I can do for my clients, that gives me a reason to call them it gives me an angle I hadn’t thought of before. And so the most obvious one, and I’ll start us off in this little game that we’re about to play that you didn’t know you’re gonna play is welcome to my world is, you know, obviously finding the business, if you’ve got a CEO, a GC, someone that that needs some thing like business, or they need a new employee, or they need something that’s going to help them be more successful in their career life business, obviously, keep your eyes open for that and make those proactive introductions, what would be another thing that a lawyer could do for a client, for example, that would add value for them, while they’re waiting for that next matter to come in?



Here, I’m talking to them about what’s going on in their business. And I mean, we’ve always talked about making sure you understand the your client’s business, not just the issue at hand, right. So you can have your alerts set up and find out what’s going on with them. But if you practice one area of law, your firm practices one area of law, that means to be able to refer these clients out to other people. So if you’re just if you’re actually listening to what the client has to say about what other problems are, you can reference them somebody else, someone you care that you know, will do a good job, and they will love you for life back. So that’s solving another one of their problems versus, you know, what you were saying is, is finding them a, maybe that next CEO or something like that, those are obviously super helpful as well, but just helping listen to their problems and being an ear on the ground for?


Steve Fretzin  [21:55]

Well, let’s take that even further. And say you’re maybe not doing your job as a counselor or as an as a lawyer. If you’re not asking questions, identifying risks and problems that your client has, and then leveraging your firm your network to solve them. Right. So I think that’s that’s an area where lawyers can feel good about business development without feeling salesy. You’re not selling them services, you’re asking questions, identifying pain points and problems, and then actually bringing in more business, but it’s because you were smart enough to identify it. That’s an area that I think, in speaking with Claire Pfanner, over at the UK, and and just generally, you know, lawyers are missing the boat on that. Right. So



to take that even to the most simplest terms, if we want to talk with the best rainmakers are, they’re the ones who are actually listening to their clients. Yeah, they’re not solving their problems, before they’ve even asked what the problem is, they’re actually listening to find out what the problem is, and see how they can help them get through whatever that might be. And whether that’s them resolving it through their own work or using their network to be better at it.


Steve Fretzin  [22:57]

Well, I’ll share I’ll share, I’ll share a mantra that you can steal. And all my clients know this because I hit them over the head with it multiple times when they engage me is prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. So people that are listening to that, you know, work that work that language through your brain a little bit, and then you’ll realize questioning, first diagnosing first, before prescription before solving before we’re giving away free advice. It may be that you’re under your you need to ask a question and ask a couple maybe deeper to understand what’s going on. And that’s a you know, it’s interesting, John, I’ve got, you know, a lawyer to two doors down from my office, who’s the top guy in Toronto that handles that exact thing, we probably should get the three of us together and talk about that, because that’s a real issue that we can help you with. Oh, my God, that’s so wonderful. And so now you’ve got that cross marketing opportunity, you’re bringing in a great partner, you’re helping your client, Win Win Win,



correct? I agree with you. 100%. Is it just, you know, they don’t think that way.


Steve Fretzin  [23:58]

No, and I that’s we’re so that’s why we’re doing this show, we’re trying to one attorney at a time, right, we got to turn the corner, let’s keep this game going for another minute or two, we’ve got, you know, obviously giving them prospects and things that are going to benefit their business, you know, trying to find them help them, you know, maybe finding good employees and stuff like that, asking good questions to engage them show we care, but also for that cross marketing opportunity. And then I would add to that, you know, leveraging your network to to make good connections. So even if it isn’t a prospective client or whatever, if you’ve got someone that’s going to add value, someone that you identify that they have a real issue around compensation, they don’t understand like how to do comp for the new age, then you’ve got a compensation expert in your in your area, they’re selling their business, you know, evaluations expert, you need to think, you know, ask these questions, not only for cross marketing, but also to maybe bring in some talent. And that way, again, you’re adding value through your network.



Right. And again, it goes back to knowing your client more than knowing the file, right and pay attention to what they do. And what’s going on with them? Yeah, all that matters all makes a difference in them getting better.


Steve Fretzin  [25:05]

What else would be a good outreach for a lawyer to add value for a client or someone that is in their network outside of what we’ve shared so far? Any other thoughts on that?



I mean, in legal legal space, it’s the easy one is when you know, laws are about to change, or something is coming up. How does that client? How’s it gonna affect your client? And how can you actually get in front of them before they have to worry about it? So you’re actually taking the pain away before they even have the pain? Right? Yeah, we have a new legislation coming through about a right to disconnect, or it’s through already, but it’s, you know, when people can be contacted in their companies and what have you. So it’s kind of a, it’s a bit of a big deal right now that people are working from home? What are those? What are those parameters around things? Well, if you can get in front of your client and say, here’s what we’re suggesting, for your business, then they’re like, Great, thank you. I don’t have to worry about this anymore. Give me a couple of years, you know, give me some options and what the best place is going forward? Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [26:01]

I’ll wrap us up with one more, and then we’ll go to game changing books. I love to engage my clients in value ads for them and their brand and their business. So having them on my podcast, inviting them to a networking group that I run, or that I’m involved in. recently got them. So I’m doing an event on business development for litigators with the Chicago Bar Association. Well, I got three of my clients on that panel, right there, the business developers that I’ve either worked with, or that I, you know, they’re in my peer advisory groups, whatever. And now I’m adding value because now they’re getting an audience that they wouldn’t have had if if I hadn’t brought their names into it. So anything you can do to kind of like add value for your client and their brand. And, you know, especially like general counsel’s like, what do you do for general counsel? They don’t do business, okay, well, then how can you engage them in something that’s going to boost their ego or how they you know, put them out in front as an expert, that kind of stuff, I think is really, really helpful.



When the ego the ego does matter. Right. Now, I think all the things we’ve talked about, here are ones that could have been pre pandemic, and during the pandemic, there’s not the like, the important pieces that can come through. I think one of the last ones that we that is specific to the pandemic is literally just asking somebody how they’re how they’re doing. Yeah, how’s the, you know, not coming out and say, How’s your mental health? But how are they doing in general? I reached out to a colleague last week, just to see how she was doing, and and she got back to me with kind of a generic answer. So I said, let’s set up a call, we had a call yesterday, find out, you know, her life’s kind of her family, life’s a bit falling apart, she didn’t get to be partner that she thought she was going to be, no, there was a list of things, you’re not gonna get that in an email, you’re not gonna say, How’s business going? This was kind of this was a discussion point and made her feel she was able to leave some of this thing over there. This was not business development. This was just, you know, reaching out to an old colleague that I’ve worked with. But that’s the kind of thing is simple. How are you doing can go a long way, especially think in the last couple of years and make a difference?


Steve Fretzin  [28:03]

Well, I think generally, if you don’t, this goes back to where we started, Mark. I mean, having strong relationships is kind of the most important thing, especially if you’re looking to keep business where it is meaning with you. It’s the people that are losing touch that aren’t asking how are you? What can I do for you, that are making multiple touches a year that are probably at risk to lose the business they’ve worked so hard to get. So there’s a little takeaway for the whole show right there kind of wrapping it up. Mark Awesome, let’s let’s go to game changing books. And you’ve got an interesting one that you brought to my attention Shoe Dog is all about them is that the Nike story,



it is the Nike store, and it’s about like perseverance and having to go back and you know, not everything’s perfect out of the box, and how you can actually be a leader and doing different things, but actually acting on what you’re doing isn’t the greatest person in the world. And on the he’s got his blog like everybody else, but the story about how he was able to build the brand was was pretty, pretty special one on that one. But you know, for the audience, there’s a lot of great podcasts out there, yours being included, you know, some other ones that I think you can get a lot out of, you know, spend half an hour, 15 minutes when you’re going for a walk, bike ride, whatever it might be. And just listen, and you’ll learn something every time. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [29:15]

fantastic. So if you just want to give your information out in case someone’s interested in talking about your firm are interested in getting in touch with you, and Hicks, Morley, not have people reach you



yet, at the bio on the website at six And reach out to me on LinkedIn as well. You can find my publications there as well, which I do for a number of blogs. But happy to speak to anybody what they’re looking for.


Steve Fretzin  [29:38]

Awesome. Well, thanks for being on the show, sharing your wisdom and having a kind of a fun conversation with me today. Great. Thanks, Dave. Awesome. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Mark and I, hopefully again, you got a couple of good takeaways and just understanding like what’s really happening out there in the marketplace right now. And it’s it’s a weird time. I also we didn’t talk about this, but like, I mean, I definitely feel like we’re heading into a pretty significant run. Session and if that’s the case then business development, marketing branding it’s never going to be more important so it’s not a you know plug for hiring me I only take on so many attorneys a year but it’s generally just in that you know, public service announcement you know, get your get your act together, things are not going to be better in the next year than they were this year. I mean, some people are having, you know, record years as far as billable hours and revenues and all that and it’s just not sustainable especially with with where everything’s going so just just pay attention. And listen, everybody it’s all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [30:38]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes