In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Mark Silverman discuss:
- Building client relationships from the start of your career.
- Bringing your full, authentic self to your client relationships.
- Being forward with those you’ve served when asking for referrals.
- The art of bringing in new work from current clients.
Key Takeaways:
- Even when you’re crazy busy, it is key to reach out to a client or post on LinkedIn or send a text to connect with those in your network.
- Everybody wins in referrals when there is a transferral of trust.
- Be honest about where you can add value and where, perhaps, you aren’t the best fit for your clients.
- Find what works for you and stay consistent with it. You are running a business and want to maintain that forward momentum.
“The worst thing you can do, and what will tank your relationship and career quickly, is to sell something that you have no business doing.” — Mark Silverman
Read more from Steve at Above the Law: AboveTheLaw.com/tag/Steve-Fretzin/
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Episode References:
- Matt Campobasso: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrc1921/
- Sales Free Selling Audiobook: https://www.amazon.com/Sales-Free-Selling-Death-Sales-Methodology/dp/B0D9HWPX6W
About Mark Silverman: Mark serves as Locke Lord’s CMBS Special Servicer Team Leader. When borrowers and guarantors fail to meet their obligations, financial institutions, commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS) special servicers and other companies look to Mark to enforce those commitments, in or out of the courtroom. Mark frames and resolves issues involving creditors’ rights, loan workouts, bankruptcy and loan enforcement. He advises large, midsized, and small banks; financial institutions; and financial technology companies across the country, as well as the nation’s largest CMBS special servicers.
Connect with Mark Silverman:
Website: https://www.lockelord.com/professionals/s/silverman-mark-a
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marksilverman3/ :
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I just want to share that I’m now writing for Above the Law. If you enjoy this podcast, you might also enjoy my monthly columns. You can go to Above the Law and type my name into the magnifying glass in the top right corner to read my latest articles. Thanks and enjoy the show.
[00:00:21] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:43] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to another fun episode of Be That Lawyer with Fretzin. We are here every single week, twice a week to make sure you are continuing to be your best self as a lawyer, practicing all over the world. We’ve got people from Saudi Arabia listening, from England, Canada. I’m getting all types of great people from all over the place.
[00:01:03] Steve Fretzin: So the, the, the, the podcast is a real thing, man. Do you have, do you do a podcast, Mark?
[00:01:07] Mark Silverman: No, no, just as a guest. So whenever I get the chance,
[00:01:10] Steve Fretzin: you probably should, you have the personality for it. It’s, it’s, it’s a lot of fun and you get to meet the most amazing people. And I think I initially started out a podcast because I thought it was going to be just how do I brand myself and get the word out.
[00:01:24] Steve Fretzin: But that’s actually been like the, not the least and more important thing, but it’s been kind of down on the list. It’s really been like, How do I keep in touch with you? How do I keep in touch? How do I get to meet legal experts? How do I build out my network with just the best people in the world? And that’s really been kind of my big takeaway from it.
[00:01:39] Steve Fretzin: Um, but I’m happy to have you back, Mark. It’s been a while. We ran into each other. Our, both of our kids are doing school of rock, which if you, nobody’s heard about school of rock before, it’s like based on the movie, but. Uh, with Jack black, but, um, you’ve been in it. Your son’s been in a while.
[00:01:55] Mark Silverman: Yeah. He’s been in it since December of last year.
[00:01:58] Mark Silverman: So I guess just a little over a year.
[00:01:59] Steve Fretzin: Okay. And a little longer than I
[00:02:01] Mark Silverman: play his guitar and, uh, stings and is really into it. I think he was a little bummed that he didn’t get to do the performance this summer, as I think it conflicted with every single baseball game that he had. So it was, uh, you know, you got to pick at some point.
[00:02:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, but my son Andrew, like he, he’s been playing guitar for a long time in the basement with a teacher and it’s been great and there’s been growth, but nowhere near the kind of growth that he’s seen being in a band and like being forced to like learn songs and get on a stage and perform. And it’s really been, it’d been a game changer for him and his guitar.
[00:02:36] Steve Fretzin: And I mean, that, that’s what I think lawyer, I mean, we could segue that to lawyers in the sense of, you know, lawyers that are participating in peer advisory groups, lawyers that are hiring coaches, lawyers that are, that find mentors and advisors and people to do stuff with tend to do better than ones that just go it alone.
[00:02:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:02:53] Mark Silverman: And Steve, you’re being modest. Your kid lit up the stage was absolutely the star of the show is a fantastic advocate for all the little kids. I was pretty cool to see and it was, uh, it was nice to see a leader on stage and obviously gets that from somewhere. So it’s good. Well,
[00:03:08] Steve Fretzin: yeah, he would never admit by the way that he got anything from me, right?
[00:03:11] Steve Fretzin: Other than, you know, basic level genetics, but, but I appreciate you saying that. And I, I think he just, he just kind of decided he was going to enjoy it and, and kind of make a thing about it. And if you look at the first performance in the second performance, very different type of, you know, guitar style.
[00:03:25] Steve Fretzin: But anyway, I was just so happy our kids got along and I think he was talking about babysitting for yourself, all that kind of stuff. I know,
[00:03:31] Mark Silverman: which is great. Anytime when he’s back.
[00:03:33] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Yeah. He’s coming back soon. He’s been away. He’s been away for a month, a month now at a fishing lodge. And, uh, he’s, he’s making buku dollars and, and having fun and getting to help people and fish and all kinds of stuff.
[00:03:44] Steve Fretzin: So Mark, you’ve been on the show before for everyone listening, Mark, Mark Silverman’s a partner, Lock Lord. And we, you know, we have a quote for the show. This is as simple and straightforward a quote as we’ve ever had. It’s get it done. So why, you know, you’ve got, you could have thought of anything, but that one popped into your head.
[00:04:01] Steve Fretzin: What, what is it about get it done?
[00:04:03] Mark Silverman: Yeah. So our clients come to us because of our ability to get things done efficiently. And it’s really, it’s critical. So with large real estate projects, it’s, um, if you are in default, it’s not going to get any better. And so time absolutely kills deals. And so to the extent that we can’t get it done quickly, oftentimes it gets stuck in the mud and your results are a lot worse.
[00:04:24] Mark Silverman: So it’s, it’s critical for me and for my team to understand that when those emails come in, when the other side is trying to delay things, sure, we can give a courtesy. Absolutely. We can be cordial, we can be courteous and anything like that, but we have to have that internal meter running inside that goes, we got to move this forward.
[00:04:43] Mark Silverman: This has to go. Yeah. And it’s, um, it’s one of the guideposts of our practice. It’s one of the guideposts of our team. It’s really just focused on how can we get the best quality to work out the door as quickly as possible.
[00:04:55] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And my take is, is just a little different, obviously with the business development slant that most lawyers are putting off business development.
[00:05:02] Steve Fretzin: They’re putting off social media. They’re putting off things that. And I’ve been reading a lot about how it’s important for people to have time for things that they aren’t comfortable or that they just don’t feel like they have time for. It’s not a priority. How is that? How are you seeing that too? Are you, or, you know, is that maybe just like, are you either going to get it done or are you going to put it off?
[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: And what happens when we put it off? It’s like that kind of Yeah.
[00:05:19] Mark Silverman: And really, it, it, Views the same for my client development and marketing. I do it every single day, regardless of how busy I am with client work, regardless of whatever I’m doing. There’s a portion of each day that I will spend reading through materials, making sure that I am on top of the market and that I’ve reached out to at least a couple of people, whether it’s an email, a phone call, a text message, uh, LinkedIn posts, just to stay relevant.
[00:05:45] Mark Silverman: And so I think those are important ways to continue to supplement. Even if you’re screaming busy and you’re billing 12, 14 hours a day, it’s still important to take an extra 30 minutes and post something relevant on LinkedIn or to send a quick email to a client that you haven’t talked to in a while. Or even to a client that you have talked to in a while, but you saw an article that made you think of them for whatever reason, because those are the touch points.
[00:06:08] Mark Silverman: Those are the, the pieces of this puzzle that I think get lost and they mean a lot when they connect.
[00:06:15] Steve Fretzin: So Mark, do me, do me a solid and give, um, give a little background because you’re one of the top rainmakers I know in the Chicagoland area. And. You’ve been on the show before we talked about that, but, but, and I know we’ve got, I’ve got a number of questions I want to ask you today that are going to ferret out some of your best practices, but give us, give us that reader’s digest.
[00:06:33] Mark Silverman: Sure. So I started my career at Chapman and Cutler, really enjoyed my time there, was in their bankruptcy restructuring group doing primarily what I’m doing now, which is working out large commercial loans in various states of foreclosure, receivership, bankruptcy, and otherwise. I then moved to a few other firms.
[00:06:50] Mark Silverman: Most recently, I was at Dykeman. I ran their financial services practice and CMBS special servicer group and then move my practice over to Lock Lord about 18 months ago. So I run the commercial mortgage backed security special servicer practice group at Lock Lord. And all that means is basically a fancy creditor’s rights group that focuses on special servicers.
[00:07:09] Mark Silverman: The special servicing world is very different than traditional banking. So when you think of a traditional bank loan that might go into default, it gets transferred to a workout group, a managed assets group, a special assets group, whatever it might be within the same organization. And that workout banker then deals with the defaulted credit and finds a way to manage the process.
[00:07:30] Mark Silverman: In a securitized product, you obviously don’t have a relationship person and there’s no special assets group, manage asset group within a trough. It’s a real estate mortgage investment conduit trust. So there’s really not a group within that, that can manage the loans. And so when the loan triggers into default, it gets transferred to the special servicer.
[00:07:49] Mark Silverman: The special servicers are typically our clients and they are equivalent to similar to a workout group. But I do think that they’re slightly different in a lot of different ways. But one of which is that they’re incredibly creative. And so they’re very good at kind of creatively thinking through how can we manage this credit in a manner that’s not going to just go after the bad guy and try to get as much money as we can.
[00:08:13] Mark Silverman: Although that’s part of it, but it’s really to get a more holistic understanding of what’s best for the building, what’s best for the bond holders and all parties and interests. And I think they’re incredibly good at that. And so that’s something where I’ve been fortunate enough to focus on since I was a baby lawyer, and I’ve continued to do it ever since.
[00:08:29] Steve Fretzin: And what sort of like moment, year, whatever, did you have where you sort of figured out that being a great lawyer was important and being specialized is important, but also that client development was something you needed to invest time on.
[00:08:43] Mark Silverman: I, my first year, it was very clear to me that coming out of school in the last recession, that absent having client relationships yourself, you were just going to be a journeyman and just continue to kind of piece together work where you can get it.
[00:08:58] Mark Silverman: And that was never really something that I was okay with. So I was a very young lawyer and was able to generate small amounts of work, but work nevertheless. And that was something that I prided myself on. It’s something that I was pleased that I was able to do. And the best way to do it is really to go back through your contact, your network, your friends and folks that will trust and rely upon you to solve their problems.
[00:09:21] Mark Silverman: And sure, is there an element of luck that goes into some of this? It may be, but I do think that you put yourself in the situations to create that luck and to create those opportunities. And you have to be willing to make the ask and you have to be willing to They look, I know you do X, Y, and Z. We do that too.
[00:09:39] Mark Silverman: And we do it really well. Let’s sit down and talk about your situation. And so those are instances where sure you might be lucky to be in that scenario, but you have to actually close in order to make it work.
[00:09:53] Steve Fretzin: And I think a lot what lawyers may not realize and what I spend every day all day on is helping lawyers come up with and have those conversations in a sales free manner.
[00:10:02] Steve Fretzin: So what questions are you asking? How are you building that relationship? How are you opening it up so that you don’t have to, there’s no aggression, right? And I’m sure you’re not using anything like that, but how are you having that conversation to get to the point where they say, Yeah, it sounds like we might be a better fit than even who we’re working with now.
[00:10:18] Steve Fretzin: Maybe we should try out a, you know, a small matter, test it out or, you know, what would it take for us to move over to you and getting to the point where that conversation can happen. That’s a process. That’s not, that’s, there’s some luck involved potentially, but more I see it as, is having a good methodology of how you enter into that and, and, and facilitate that conversation.
[00:10:36] Mark Silverman: To me, it’s education through storytelling. And so as lawyers, I think a lot of our job is being able to tell a story. And so for me, I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve had a lot of experience dealing with a lot of really interesting and really messed up situations. The deals that we handle are incredibly messy.
[00:10:52] Mark Silverman: There’s a lot of very angry people that are really trying to hold on to their assets, to their property. And so that can breed really interesting stories, which make for good fodder for a conversation where your story then converts to something that’s more actionable is really to focus on timelines and timeframes.
[00:11:10] Mark Silverman: Because time to resolution back to get it done. Time to resolution is really important. So if you get a file, the time to resolve that file, much like it is for judges, is important. And so it’s, it’s critical to focus not only on what the arc of your case is going to look like, but what the speed in which you can get there may be.
[00:11:29] Mark Silverman: And so what I will do is I will often lead with stories that highlight or illustrate experiences that I’ve had in the not too distant past where we’ve been able to succeed along the lines of whatever cases that individual might be touching, where we were able to do it in an incredibly efficient manner.
[00:11:46] Mark Silverman: And we don’t talk about efficiency in the manner of like pricing or things like that. I think that’s gauche. We don’t really talk about any of that stuff, but for us, it’s really just to illustrate if the typical process takes 12 months, here’s a couple of times that we were able to do it in six, here’s a couple of times that we were able to do it in nine, and why did we do it in those timeframes as opposed to the typical 12 plus cycle, and then explain that while we have these experiences, we also have a dozen more that took four years.
[00:12:14] Mark Silverman: And so it’s really being honest, being humble, being appreciative of their time and explaining through your, my past experiences. It really seems to, to connect with folks.
[00:12:27] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, they need to believe that you’re an expert. They need to believe that you’re the one that’s going to resolve something faster, better, stronger than someone else to want to then move you forward.
[00:12:37] Steve Fretzin: I think though many lawyers struggle with how to get those meetings. Somebody’s working with another general counsel, a general counsel’s working with another law firm. They’re there. You know, they’ve been with them for five years. And how does a lawyer get that meeting with a general counselor with someone that has been.
[00:12:55] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You know, working with another firm, another group for a period of time. What, what, what’s your kind of secret sauce?
[00:13:01] Mark Silverman: I wish I could tell you, I don’t, I think it’s really just doing good work and making sure that your reputation continues to be strong, regardless of if it’s going to benefit you down the road.
[00:13:11] Mark Silverman: Okay. So it’s, um, I think that folks that come at this with a transactional mentality where it’s like, I’m going to be nice to you, I’m going to do good things for you. And then you’ll do good things for me. That doesn’t really work. For me, it’s just being genuine. And it’s something that I think really came to fruition more clearly during the pandemic when I think folks became more real with one another.
[00:13:32] Mark Silverman: And as opposed to saying like, I’m so sorry for the, you know, background noise and then putting yourself on mute and saying, kids be quiet. This is embarrassing. Like nobody cares. And so it’s like, Hey, look, you’re calling me after hours. My kids are with me. I’m just going to talk to you. We’re going to solve your problem.
[00:13:48] Mark Silverman: I’m available for you. But understand that I’m a full person and that there’s not going to be this massive bifurcation between this persona that you’ve put forward in the office versus the persona that you are in real life. And I think that that authenticity and that genuineness matters. And it’s something that to me is easy because I genuinely do care and I do want to be authentic and I do want to create relationships and I do like my clients.
[00:14:14] Mark Silverman: They’re great people. They have interesting lives. They do interesting things. They, um, they often will teach me stuff about areas that I don’t really have a lot of exposure into, but back to your kind of central question, I can recall a couple of times where I’ve had general councils of company a say, Hey, company B, we work with Mark for this type of case, you should reach out to him.
[00:14:37] Mark Silverman: He’s got a team that spans the country. It might be able to help you on, you know, why, and those are more few and far between. I, and when they happen, it’s great. And it’s, it’s a very. Humbling experience, but I do think that it’s the kind of the constant care of just making sure that the people that you’re working with, the people that you’re interacting with at networking events, they like spending time with you and that you like spending time with them.
[00:15:02] Mark Silverman: And I think that leads to good. Good outcome.
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[00:16:51] Steve Fretzin: At Fretzin, we use Get Staffed Up for Marketing Person and you know how good our marketing is. Learn more at GetStaffedUp. com slash BeThatLawyer. I mean, something that I’m, I’m teaching on a regular basis, when someone is your client, thinks you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread, you’ve saved the day, all of that, and you’ve become, you know, friends.
[00:17:10] Steve Fretzin: So it’s like, we have to start at that level. Transcribed That you could say to them, you know, look, I’m in charge of this group. We have a lot of lawyers we need to feed. You love our work. I’m assuming that there’s, there’s a number of people that, you know, in a similar space that I could be talking to working with.
[00:17:26] Steve Fretzin: I don’t want to overstep any boundaries, but, but would you be open to talking that out and having a conversation about people we can help in a similar fashion, how we work with you. We have the capacity. It’s not going to affect our, you know, our work with you in the least. And see what that friend that that GC, that person’s going to say how they’re going to respond And and understand it’s like it’s like a great brain surgeon That’s a best kept secret And so we we sometimes need to be a little bit more forward with the people We have benefited and I can say that to my clients like hey, you’ve double tripled your book of business There’s other lawyers, you know I would love the opportunity to talk with one or two just to see if I can help them in a similar fashion I think everybody wins in that scenario when that trust Is transferred to transfer all the trust.
[00:18:11] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Right. So that’s, that’s, that’s a more proactive approach, but I think that’s one, you know, waiting for it to happen versus making it happen. I like to make it happen.
[00:18:21] Mark Silverman: I’m with you. And in most circumstances, I think that makes sense. Our servicer clients are not necessarily in the realm of kind of passing lawyers back and forth.
[00:18:31] Mark Silverman: I think we’re very fortunate that there’s not a lot of people that do what I do. And so we’re friends and we know all of our friendly competitors. I don’t even know that they’re competition. All of us kind of have markets. All of us have different expertise. And sure, there’s crossover and overlap by and among each of us.
[00:18:47] Mark Silverman: But I do think that there is, um, it’s a very strong Um, group of people, really strong lawyers. And I don’t have much negative to say. So for example, like we, we have a very good relationship with some attorneys in Manhattan and we try not to step on toes there. And they’re excellent and they do great work.
[00:19:04] Mark Silverman: And I don’t think that I can do anything different or better than they can. We can maybe do the same, but I certainly wouldn’t say that we could do anything better in the Illinois market in Chicago in general. I do think that we can offer something slightly different than our peer firms. But I don’t think that it’s better.
[00:19:19] Mark Silverman: I just think it’s something slightly different and that we come at things from a slightly different way. And so coming at and being honest and saying like, look, we know our value. Do we know what we can add here? We know what we can add here. You may not want to use us. Here. And so those are kind of conversations that you have to be very forthright with your client.
[00:19:41] Mark Silverman: But as far as having one of my servicers call another servicer and say like, Hey, we like Mark in this. I don’t know that that’s ever happened. Maybe at a networking event where it’s, um, I’ve been talking to the servicer A and they’ve said, Hey, we work with Mark. And there’s just a little bit of osmosis there, but really, I don’t, I don’t see that happening as much.
[00:20:00] Steve Fretzin: And again, everybody’s got a different situation with who they’re dealing with on a day to day basis. But, you know, Matt Camposso was, uh, he’s a general counsel. He was on my show, I don’t know, 10 episodes ago. And he was explaining as a GC, he’s open to taking meetings, you know, with new lawyers and new law firms.
[00:20:16] Steve Fretzin: If the introduction is done properly, if, if it’s something valuable to him, even if they can’t do business today. The idea that he’s meeting with good resources that people are highly recommending. And so that’s really what it’s about. It’s, it’s, it’s not every situation’s the same, right, Mark? But that’s, that’s the idea is that we don’t, you know, you said this at the very beginning, you know, you have to, you have to be proactive.
[00:20:37] Steve Fretzin: You have to, you have to make the ask. And that ask might be just getting a meeting with someone that has no interest in your services. After they meet you, they might say, you know what? Someone else may need you in here. Let me make an, I can’t use you, but let me introduce you over here. And you know, just never know where things can go.
[00:20:52] Mark Silverman: I call that kind of networking glue. And so it’s the, the kind of conduits that really are out there and in the marketplace. And so for us, that tends to be other vendors, other service providers, so receivers, brokers, things of that nature that are taking a lot of meetings, really sales meetings with a lot of our clients.
[00:21:12] Mark Silverman: And it’s nice when Chicago comes up or when Texas or some other, you know, California comes up like, Oh, yeah, we’ve had good experience with Mark and his team in this jurisdiction. Those are meetings that I don’t have the time to take. And we’re a lot of our networking glue, friends and relationships can really come in handy.
[00:21:30] Mark Silverman: And it’s even just saying your name and polite circles is has value. Um, another big, you know, big part of this is making sure that you’re out there and seen as a, as a thought leader in the space. I think thought leader is often overblown as far as that’s concerned, but you have to know the industry, you have to know the area in which you practice.
[00:21:52] Mark Silverman: It’s, I’m not just a general litigator that can handle kind of any litigation that comes my way. It really should and does touch on real estate in some form or fashion. And so whether that’s, you know, distressed real estate’s my preference, but if it’s got a real estate bend, it’s probably in my orbit and something that we can help out on.
[00:22:10] Mark Silverman: If it’s an employment claim, I’ve got great employment lawyers and I would be happy to introduce you, but it’s certainly not something that I would tell you that I could handle. And so I think it’s being again, intellectually honest with your service offerings and what you’re able to do, because the worst thing you can do and what will tank your relationship and career quickly is to sell something that you have no business.
[00:22:30] Mark Silverman: doing. And so it’s, um, and, and again, knowing where the tip of your skis are so that you don’t get out in front of them.
[00:22:37] Steve Fretzin: So
[00:22:37] Mark Silverman: for me, it’s bringing in, I have an unbelievable team. We have unbelievable lawyers in a variety of different markets. They know their craft as well or better than anyone. And my ability to tap into those folks to say, we need this experience.
[00:22:52] Mark Silverman: We need a dirt lawyer in this region. And so just a traditional real estate lawyer and finding that right person. That’s my job. That’s my, the service that I provide to my clients is that if it’s something that I can’t handle myself, I want to make sure that somebody is on my team. That’s going to be able to handle that quickly.
[00:23:09] Mark Silverman: And efficiently for our guys. And so it’s really important.
[00:23:13] Steve Fretzin: But let’s, let’s take that a step further, Mark, because Cross marketing for many attorneys, especially at your size firm and in the mid market, it, you have to know your partners. You have to know who’s great at what. You have to know who’s got great customer service, client service, whatever it might be.
[00:23:29] Steve Fretzin: Because if you, if you bring in work and you hand it off to the wrong person in the wrong state and wrong city and wrong person, like that relationship can get tarnished. So I think there’s, it’s just as important to know the players internally and know who to go to. It also then keeps a top of mind of what you can bring in.
[00:23:48] Steve Fretzin: And so talk, talk about that a little bit, because I think those, if we’re talking about just bringing in what you do, that’s fine. But there’s a, there’s sort of a limit to how much a lawyer can make and do and work. Versus bringing in a lot of things that that can then be fed off to the other attorneys where you get some credit or all the credit.
[00:24:06] Mark Silverman: Yeah. And look, I mean, for me, it’s not necessarily building credit. It’s not necessarily building this kind of this facade, but it’s really just solving problems. And so it’s getting to the solution quickly. And if that means I need a tax lawyer for 20 hours, I’m going to find the best tax lawyer that I can find in my platform.
[00:24:24] Mark Silverman: We’re going to use them for 20 hours, and that’s going to be the conclusion of their service on the file. Yeah. We don’t overstaff our cases, so we’re not going to have five lawyers sitting on a file when two will do, but we might have a month where we do have five billers on it, but each of those billers does something different.
[00:24:41] Mark Silverman: So I might have an employment lawyer sit in because we have a union issue. I might have a tax lawyer come in because we have a tax issue. I’ll have a real estate lawyer because we’re finishing a deed in lieu of foreclosure. And so you’ll see the client will see five different billers. But they’re not five different people like me, litigation, bankruptcy people.
[00:25:00] Mark Silverman: There are five different specialists that come in to solve a very small part of a very big problem. And we’ll then use those people again, if we need to, in order to conclude the case. And so the best examples I can give of that are kind of multi state distress portfolios where you’re dealing with a lot of different states, a lot of different state law, where you might have one action rule issues, meaning that you can’t sue on another piece of debt until you conclude the other piece.
[00:25:26] Mark Silverman: There’s a lot of very complicated intersections of all of these various states. And so having folks that specialize in these areas work on the file, even for a limited amount of time. adds a huge amount of value to a client. And so when you kind of look at the outside console guidelines and it’s like one associate and one partner That’s great.
[00:25:46] Mark Silverman: If you’re handling a single state commercial foreclosure one associate one partner I I don’t have any issue with that I think that makes sense But when you start to deal in the complexities that we’re dealing with the one associate one partner leading the file makes sense But you’re going to need an entire team of folks to get the results the client wants.
[00:26:05] Mark Silverman: And it’s often challenging to explain that, but I think that the art of continuing to develop work and continue to get new work from existing clients is showing that these are necessary pieces of the overall puzzle to get you to the results that you desire from the outset. And so that’s often just quick recovery of the asset or collection on a guarantee.
[00:26:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, but when you talk about great client service and you talk about, um, just doing the right thing for the client, asking questions to identify other potential risks that they have, other areas that, that you’re currently not engaged in, but you have the ability to engage in, um, I think that’s, that’s sort of like it has to be done.
[00:26:48] Steve Fretzin: And I don’t know that it’s being done enough. I think people sometimes, You know, they, you know, they’ve got a horse with blinders on and they’re just seeing, you know, every, you know, a hammer and all I see is nails. Like they don’t realize like, Hey, what questions can I ask this client that don’t relate to what we’re doing together, but might ultimately open up the client to preventing bad things that could happen on employment.
[00:27:10] Steve Fretzin: That could have bad things that could happen in real estate, bad things that could happen because maybe they’re not being represented or being represented well. Or by the right platform. So there’s a lot of, you know, a little bit of his feeling around, but I think just asking the question questions and, and getting the client to share what’s really going on behind the curtain could open up a whole new world.
[00:27:32] Mark Silverman: Oh, absolutely. And it’s really, again, it’s doing good work for good people and it has its value, but you have to ask the questions. And so you have to get an, a holistic understanding of what your clients do, not only their day to day business, but what their colleagues are doing. And so if you’ve got an organization, that’s got a thousand people and you work with five of them, it’s probably a good idea to figure out what the other people do.
[00:27:56] Mark Silverman: So it’s, and maybe you can make assumptions on that, but I don’t like to assume I’d rather just ask. Yeah. Say, I know that you’ve got this huge organization, that you have this huge office space, and actually, what do all these other people do? And I’ll ask it as blunt as that. It’s, what does everyone, what does everyone else do here?
[00:28:13] Mark Silverman: Yeah, what’s
[00:28:13] Steve Fretzin: going on here?
[00:28:14] Mark Silverman: I have no clue. This is so far over my head. I have no idea. And you’ll be surprised at what you learn. And so I’m always incredibly surprised at the creativity of a lot of my clients where it’s like, Holy cow, I would have never thought to do that, but it makes perfect sense based on your primary business.
[00:28:31] Mark Silverman: And so I think those are conversations where I have that light bulb click on where I’m like, man, I wish, I wish I would have thought of something like that. It’s brilliant. That’s a great way to utilize resources and pivot off of the same, you know, pivot off of the same general business plan. Yeah.
[00:28:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Mark Silverman: And so I think those are cool conversations, but you have to have them. You have to be willing to sound like you don’t know everything. And I think that’s something that lawyers don’t necessarily do well is do not have all of the answers. And for me, I don’t need to have all the answers, but I want to ask all the questions.
[00:29:05] Mark Silverman: But I can then go back, work with my team that’s incredibly talented and get the answer. And then I can report it back to you. But I don’t, I don’t want to pretend to have all those answers right off the bat.
[00:29:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Right on the money, right on the money. So, Mark, if you had to give, kind of wrapping things up a little bit, it’s, it’s almost been a half an hour if you can believe it, um, what’s one, one piece of advice you’d give to solo big firm, mid market attorneys that are looking to.
[00:29:31] Steve Fretzin: Grow their law practice and, and, and stay consistent over their career, like you’ve done.
[00:29:37] Mark Silverman: Keep, keep consistent. So keep whatever it is that you’re doing, if it’s working or starting to work, keep doing it. Yeah. And so don’t allow yourself to kind of get too busy to stop focusing on what you need to do to run your business.
[00:29:51] Mark Silverman: Well, it’s critical to keep your clients top of mind. You’re also running a business. And so it’s important to just keep that forward momentum, but stay positive. And I think that it’s really easy to kind of get down in the dumps. It’s easy to kind of be like, man, I’ve haven’t gotten a lot of success on X, Y, and Z.
[00:30:08] Mark Silverman: But if you can try to stay in a positive headspace, you’re going to see a lot more things that can come to you as opposed to just kind of focusing on the failures. So, and little wins turn to big wins very quickly. And so if you’re able to get enough of these kind of incremental small wins, they turn into much bigger wins down the road.
[00:30:28] Mark Silverman: And it takes, it takes time, but it’s doable. And it just focus, it’s that consistent approach and consistently being there, being available, being hungry. Um, I think those are things that I am, I would try to impart on others.
[00:30:43] Steve Fretzin: Really great stuff. And, um, we’d love to, to do our game changing podcast, game changing book.
[00:30:49] Steve Fretzin: I just want to share, um, if you’re okay with it, Mark, I’ll take your spot for the, for the, for the, for the episode. The, uh, my book, Sales Free Selling, which has been out for probably 10 years, is finally available on audio. So if, if you’re interested in, in, in buying it, great. If you want to just listen to it on audio, um, go to, go to Amazon, type in Sales Free Selling or type in Fretzin, check it out.
[00:31:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s a really fast, uh, read or listen. And what it’s going to do is give you some ideas of what sales free methodologies you can use to do business development and never feel bad about it. Never feel like you’re pitching or selling or convincing, which I know are like real negative words for everybody really that wants to grow business and feel good about it.
[00:31:31] Steve Fretzin: That you’re everyone’s can win in this scenario. Versus it being like I’ve got a jam of a square peg in a round hole. And, and that’s not, not the way I don’t think any lawyers really want to feel or really anybody, but lawyers in particular. Okay. Yeah.
[00:31:44] Mark Silverman: Well, thank you, Steve. It was great to, great to be here.
[00:31:46] Mark Silverman: I’m glad we’re able to reconnect through music and enjoy the rest of the summer, man.
[00:31:50] Steve Fretzin: School of rock school of rock, everybody. Um, yes. And of course, thank our, our sponsors, law Maddox and, uh, get staffed up. And of course, if you’re in the personal injury space and you love marketing, you got to check out PymCon that’s happening in September.
[00:32:04] Steve Fretzin: It’s going to be first class all the way. And I think there’s a discount if you go to PymCon. com and go to, uh, uh, type in be that lawyer in the, um, you know, it’s the discount code. So. That’s all good. Mark. Thanks so much, man. And thank you everybody for spending time with market. I tend to be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast, helping you to be that lawyer.
[00:32:21] Steve Fretzin: Someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker. Take everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.
[00:32:30] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.