Marko Evans: Law Firm Recruiting and Retention

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Marko Evans discuss:

  • Developing remote culture.
  • Specialization versus generalization.
  • What a good recruiter needs to know.
  • Transparency and compensation.

Key Takeaways:

  • Law firms should have an internal recruiter to keep the pipeline of great talent coming.
  • Recruiting is an ongoing process. Retention times are shorter than ever and you want to make sure to grab good candidates when you can.
  • You don’t necessarily have to pay the most to get and retain staff. You have unique skills that could attract employees.
  • Mid-size firms are more agile than a larger firm would be.

“If you are somebody that is concerned about where they are in the market, look around – there are opportunities out there for somebody that has a unique skill, but maybe they are leaving some money on the table.” —  Marko Evans

Connect with Marko Evans:

Website: https://nowhiringu.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/legalheadhunter/

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing: https://legaleasemarketing.com/

Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

 

Marko Evans  [00:00]

If you’re somebody that is concerned about where they are in the market, you know, it’s look around, you know, there are opportunities out there for somebody that that, you know has a unique skill that maybe they they are leaving some money on the table.

 

Narrator  [00:20]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:42]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your host and listen, I hope you’re having a lovely day. I am wrapping up my day. I told Marco that this is it. I am done after this podcast. And then I’m going to take a nap. I think just a lot going on today, between teaching lawyers how to do business development, running a networking event. I did this my second podcast today. And I’m a little blown out. So I’m going to take a break and take a nap. That’s my story. Listen, if you haven’t picked up a copy yet, and you’re interested in learning some of my basic tips and tricks and ideas on how to grow your law practice. Jump on Amazon and check out legal business development isn’t rocket science, I think you’ll appreciate the fact that it isn’t. And the fact that I’m giving you tips and tricks and ideas, specific language to use on all these different areas how to work a conference, how to be better at a networking event, how to you know, identify through nonverbal skills, you know what someone’s really saying, all these kinds of things are in the book. I’ve got, I think 250 takeaways. So check that out. It’s on Amazon. And if you like it, give it a nice review. I’d appreciate that right now. I think I’m only got five star reviews. So that’s a good thing. I’ve got Marco as I mentioned, waiting in the wings, I want to take a moment to thank my sponsors legalese marketing, helping me with my podcast, with my social with my newsletter with my events, all kinds of stuff, updating my website, man, they’re doing it all for me. And of course, money Penny. So what’s money, Penny? While money Penny does a couple things really well, first of all, they’re on my website. So you want to chat with somebody and figure out if I’m a good fit, you want to have a conversation with me talk to money, penny on my website, figure it out. And then we can have a chat after that. Also, they have virtual reception. So you’re tired of paying somebody who can’t find a good receptionist, they do it 24/7 And they’re very good at what they do. And so that’s what they do. So listen, it’s time to get down to the goods. And Marco was kind enough to give me a really good quote that I think is super relevant to his space. And this is from So Richard Branson. That was like a Beatles. English accent by the way. I don’t think it might have been might have been Paul, I don’t know. No. Does that who is that? That sounded like one of the four. Maybe, maybe John, alright, train people well enough, so they can leave you treat them well enough. So they don’t. So that’s the big fear, right? People don’t want they want to train people so well. And then they just leave. Maybe they weren’t being treated, right? Maybe they weren’t really feeling the love. So what’s that quote mean? For you, Mark, and welcome to the show, by the way.

 

Marko Evans  [03:15]

Oh, thanks for having me. I mean, that quote is important. You know, as a, as an agency, recruiter, staffing firm, a headhunter whatever you want to call it. I mean, it’s critical that our, our job we like to think is not complete when somebody starts, although we lose control at that point, we’ve got full control of, you know, through the interview, and through the interviews, and the offer acceptance and all that, but the majority of our work is done when they start so a lot of times we’ll get that call, but, you know, six months later, and they’re just raving about the candidate, be No, he’s really working out. She’s really working out. They’re doing a great job, what a great hire, what a great fit. And one of the questions that we asked them the beginning is, when we look back after six months, what does success look like? And, you know, employers are different, you know, they all believe that their way is the best way for retaining candidates, some are finding out that they’re, especially through the pandemic, a lot of people are finding out that, you know, people are moving around for different reasons. So, you know, the quote stems from the fact that people want to be trained, they want to feel included. inclusiveness is a big, big word that we’re hearing a lot of, and and of course, you know, people want to be treated well nobody wants to be treated any differently than then then great.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:33]

Yeah. And I think we’re gonna get into the into the meat and potatoes of of salaries and compensation and why people stay why they go and all that, but I think it’s, it’s leading to an important discussion topic of, you know, it’s how people feel. I mean, ultimately, you don’t leave a job if you feel loved. If you feel like you’re part of the team. If you feel like there’s a mission that you’re a part of that that you know, you’re just you’re engrossed in it you love Have the people, even if someone offers you more money, I don’t think you’re leaving that job. Because every day you’re happy working with these people doing interesting work and feeling appreciated. Is that is that just not happening in the law firm space at the level? It should?

 

Marko Evans  [05:13]

Well, you have to think about what that really means, you know, when you’ve got your staff and, and and your your associates and your partners and your administration that’s not in the building anymore, because they’re working remote. How do you encourage that? Dad, he makes somebody feel good. And it’s in there’s a whole new sector of developing remote culture that’s growing out there. I mean, we’ve never talked about remote culture before. How do you? How do you create a group that’s unique to your firm, where people can share and collaborate and laugh and tell jokes and feel like they’re part of a team? One of the questions that, that I always like to ask and this is not in the beginning, but maybe six months or a year after we play somebody, whether it’s a paraprofessional, or a group of attorneys, which we do both is, hey, do you have a best? Do you have a best friend at the firm? It’s always a great question. Because you know, if they have a best friend at the firm, they’re, they’re talking to them, and they feel like they’re part of something, which is a great way to encourage workplace workplace value.

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:18]

Hey, everybody, listen to Marco Evans. He is the founder of now hiring you. He is a recruiter down in Florida, South Florida, right? That’s right. Yep. And, you know, we met we met a few weeks ago, and we kind of had a really great chat. And I said, you know, let’s talk about the great resignation. Let’s get into calm. Let’s get into what lawyers are really interested in hearing about as it relates to what’s going on in the space, because it’s been crazy this last year. Marco, what before we get into all that stuff? What’s your background leading into? You know, up to 2022? You’ve been in recruiting? Is it 20 years? Yeah. 20 years? That’s right. Yeah. Okay. So give give a little background on that leading up to starting this business now hiring you?

 

Marko Evans  [06:57]

Well, you know, I got in it by default. That was another industry and one of my clients asked me many years ago, if, if I wanted to learn the business, and, you know, kind of picked it up from there and worked for this gentleman for five years, and then started my own shingle in 2002. And kind of kind of took off from that point. You know, after many years, we decided to focus one of my mentors always told me, you know, market yourself, like, I guess the best way to put it in would be a specialist. And, you know, but you know, sometimes you have to do a little generalist work, too.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:31]

Yeah. I mean, I started off as a generalist working with every, every kind of weird business that exists from a carpet cleaner to a Caribbean medical school hired me to a big national bank, and, and even a dentist in everything in between, it was just bizarre, but it was fun, because I got to see so many different types of people and businesses. But at some point, yeah, you realize that, that what you do is better for certain people and industries than others are, you just realize if you don’t specialize, then you’re sort of, you know, you’re You’re everything to everybody, which means you’re really nothing, nobody. And in some, in some ways, so specialization for me, you know, happened after I found lawyers had a need in the in 2008. And took me a year or two to come around, but definitely pushed my chips. And after that, when did you figure out that legal was your space that you wanted to focus?

 

Marko Evans  [08:26]

On? Back in the early days, we had something called monster.com. Ah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [08:32]

oh, who doesn’t remember monster night,

 

Marko Evans  [08:35]

and I printed this resume and I took it to one of my clients had never done legal recruiting before. And I took it to one of my clients at the time, he happened to be my lawyer. And I showed it to him and he goes, Wow, this, this is an incredible resume. I want to talk to this guy. So he ultimately ended up getting hired and, you know, bad me. I thought, Wow, this business is really easy. I got paid a big fee. And he hired the guy. I’m still in touch with the candidate today’s he’s a friend and a fabulous attorney. And many years later, that was kind of what kicked it off all the strictly by happenstance. Yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [09:10]

okay. But sometimes it’s opportunity that knocks and we jump at it, and then we see what it is and we realize we can replicate it or digger digger heels, and if we want, so let’s get into the great resignation. I mean, it is it is a full force. And I mean, I was I was mentioning to you pre call that. I mean, in the last week, I’ve gotten three different clients of mine asking me for a specific type of attorney. And I wish I could help them all like I’m a good guy to call. I know, tons of attorneys, like there’s no shortage of attorneys. I know, but they’re all in need. They’re not asking for jobs or people looking for, you know, sending me resumes. It’s the opposite. Everybody’s gainfully employed now, and so now how do law firms who have gaps in their, in their teams, you know, get those gaps filled, so talk to that the great resignation. As you see it from a recruiter set of eyes, and then how his recruiting kind of changed more and maybe this year than last year or the last couple.

 

Marko Evans  [10:07]

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first thing that law firms, depending on their size they need to consider doing is hiring a recruiter. And you may think, well, that

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:18]

is funny. I wish I knew some.

 

Marko Evans  [10:22]

But I’m not talking about a guy like Marco Evans, I’m talking about somebody that they need to have internal on their payroll, they need an internal recruiter, you know, somebody that will be out there, that will be marketing, the firm that will be doing what they need to do to keep that pipeline of great talent coming. You know, one thing we’re seeing for sure, and it shrinks every single year, it’s shorter and shorter. And I laugh about it, because it kind of does make our industry a little bit better, because it gives more activity and that is in a job tenure. It’s below three years now. So I had a client, you know, last year, he said, you know, we loved your paralegal, we got a year, year and a half out of her, she was great. Everybody in the office got up along with her, that’s about we expect a life, you know, the the shelf life of a paralegal maybe year and a half. And then things happen. They move on they, you know, they decide to do different things, they don’t want to drive, they move, and they move to they move away from the farm. So the best thing that you can do is have somebody internal to you, it’s a lot more cost effective than using a guy like me or a firm like ours, the best thing you can do is have somebody internal to your firm that does nothing but that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:36]

I mean, it’s unreasonable for a small, a small firm of five or 10 people that they need one or two more people to staff up to hire this kind of recruiter full time recruiter internally,

 

Marko Evans  [11:45]

it is very cost effective rather than, you know, paying the cost of a of a search firm. Now, if you’re at a small firm with five people, you know, you don’t have that, that that cash flow to be able to support a full time recruiter. So one of the partners, we usually it’s the managing partner, it may be somebody in the marketing department, if you have a marketing department, somebody that carries that torch for the firm, they are the hiring partner, they are the hiring entity, they are the person that is monitoring the ads and putting the postings up on social media and going to the events and, and talking to talk and walking the walk about what they need to do to increase the influx of people that they need inside the firm, somebody’s got to wear that hat, if you can’t afford to have somebody dedicated to it,

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:32]

you should do a program. I’m spoiling this for everybody that let’s this other recruiters that are listening, but maybe there aren’t any, you should do a class for managing not a Class A program for managing partners, where they bring in that marketing director or they learn learn what you’re talking about how to do it. And you can get like, I don’t know if it paid for training to like train them how to do some to get somebody internal to do those things. Because they I think the biggest concern they’re gonna have is, that sounds great Marco, but nobody knows how to do that. And that’s not some that’s not a skill set we have internally right now, who’s going to train them to do that?

 

Marko Evans  [13:10]

So you know, it’s funny, and, you know, one of the things we keep learning from, you know, the pandemic is that, you know, when we hire recruiters for our own firm, they say, what tools do you have? And I say, we have all of them, what tools do you need, because everybody operates in their own in their own shells slightly different. Some people like to sit behind the scenes and do social media posts and send out email blasts, we do that, you know, having a presence on law jobs.com, that’s a great one. And our case, the Florida Bar, you know, it’s a great site to go to for, for looking up attorneys into doing job postings, you can do an attorney search on the Florida Bar website. But in reality, you have to do all of them to be good at what you do. If you only do one, and that’s not working, you don’t have any place to go.

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:59]

Got it. So getting an internal recruiter or making someone at the marketing department, the managing partner, somebody make that a part of their job or their full time job, at least for the short term until you get those couple people in place. And maybe it’s a never ending process that recruiting like like having a major league team has a baseball Scout, right that you just can’t stop recruiting, you have to keep on it, whether you’re hiring that out or doing it internally or both. It doesn’t stop because it’s just, you know, it’s sort of that sort of the thing now that people are like you said one and a half years on a paralegal, maybe it’s three years on an attorney. Right. So like you have to keep thinking about that void that needs to be filled and making sure it’s not that there isn’t a big gap.

 

Marko Evans  [14:41]

Sure. You’re completely right about that. You know, smaller firms always have the hiring partner, the hiring partners, the person that’s in charge of it, okay, you know, oh, the resumes go to Jack or Susan Yeah, she’s gonna take a look at it. And, you know, what are the rules of engagement, be responsive, be nice, create a great culture, you know, Have a good compensation plan. And you know, when you look at compensation these days, and you mentioned that earlier, you know, lawyers really only get paid one of two ways. The first way is by what they originate. The other way is by what they produce in terms of revenue, associates are slightly different, they’re paid a fixed salary, and then they get bonuses at the year end. But as a partner, you’re working on something called a formula. And they vary tremendously between firm to firm, for whatever has worked for all those years. So what a good recruiter should do is should be able to analyze the book of business that somebody has, and decide what firms are going to match that culture, that environment, and his compensation structure to be able to yield the best result. In other words, if I’m a great, great originator, and I bring in millions of dollars of business for in whatever practice area that is, you know, you want, one needs to look at that particular attorney into a firm that recognizes an originator and how it will fit into their corporate structure. On the other hand, if I’m a workaholic and I don’t originate that much business, you may want to look at a firm that pays more and the work that you produce rather than what you originate. So it’s a bit of professional matchmaking.

 

Jordan Ostroff  [16:21]

legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build the practice of your dreams. We helped through the entire process, from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese marketing.com.

 

[16:43]

Hi, I’m Steph from Moneypenny. We’re trusted by leading law firms and attorneys to answer calls virtually professionally and brilliantly. Our high tech receptionist service enables us to route calls to your teams wherever they’re working. And even recognize and prioritize calls based on whether they’re a repeat caller, a new client or a VIP claim you exclusive partner rates and Free Trial by quoting Fretzin today,

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:12]

and I’ve noticed that, you know, through the statistics, for example, I had Carl fix on my show a couple we don’t know we couple week or two ago, and he was you know, just just had all this data in front of him. He’s just reading like what the salaries are and how they’re going up in first year, third year and big firms, etc. And it’s pretty dramatic the changes in what’s going on with salaries and total comp. So what are what are you seeing as you’re as you’re out there in the field that are lawyers looking for like so much more than they used to 50% 30% are firms willing to pay the big bucks to fill those gaps and to build their bench?

 

Marko Evans  [17:50]

I mean, I think it varies between between the different firms that are that are going to hire and certainly there’s a big disparity, big range and big Delta, between the am 20 firms and what you’ll feel you’ll make as a first year and say a defense firm. But one thing is for certain, especially here in Florida, there is a shortage of associate attorneys to do the work that the partners are bringing in. So I think we have in Florida 11 law schools, and if they’re putting out between two and 300 lawyers per year, then you can imagine there’s an influx of 3000 Newer lawyers, they have to pass the bar, of course, and then an influx of different candidates that are coming in from outside of Florida, that that need to work so that four to 5000 attorneys that are coming into the job market in Florida is not enough. You know, the defense firms are busy, the litigation firms are busy, the international folks are busy, immigration is busy, all the practice areas are hitting on all cylinders. So it’s a matter of where you are, the type of firm that it is, and what your background is, which really determines your compensation. But one thing is for certain they are going up.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:05]

And have you seen any any movement from in house counsel moving back into private practice, because of the the ranges that are jumping? So like someone that’s been in house for five years, and works at a big corporation going back to a big, you know, am law 100 firm because they’re going to make 200,000 more than they are now or something insane like that? Well, I

 

Marko Evans  [19:26]

think again, it depends on on the formula. If you spent five or six years as a as a general counsel, Associate Counsel. I mean, you’ve you’ve developed, you know, connections in the market, you’ve developed relationships, but you don’t have any business. So again, if you look at the formula implications of bringing a general counsel back into the firm side, he or she has to have an idea of where the business is going to come from. So in many cases, what happens is that in house counsel comes into a firm environment and then they turn around and they do business back with the firm that they give the company that they came from, that’s a win for everybody. It’s a win for the candidate. It’s a win for the departing firm, and it’s a or company, and it’s a win for the firm that that person was going to. So that checks all the boxes. What gets to be a little bit tough, is, you know, when you have somebody that doesn’t have any business and does only has few relationships, they come into a firm environment at that point, what’s the word for it, you know, they have to have a very specific skill that they have that the firm needs, has a desire to build, or they have an influx of pipeline and business that they need to, to work on as an example, it might be a farmer role, a patent attorney, where they have a specific need nutraceuticals they have a specific need, and somebody is coming out of that arena. And they’re moving into a firm and the firm wants to service that client base so

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:57]

I think they call it the Liam Neeson very set special set of skills. Terrible Liam Neeson, by the way, I don’t do any the accents. Well, they’re all terrible. But But yeah, again, I think, you know, listen, that comes back to you know, your experience, your, you know, your, your brand in the market and, and how effective you are as an attorney in your space. And of course, it comes back to business development, which, you know, is obviously my space. And there are so many attorneys that are, you know, wanting to advance and get that other job and move to another firm. And I think there was a little window where lawyers with no books were getting crazy offers, because they just needed to fill those gaps. And now, maybe that’s slowing down a little bit in there saying that we need to fill the gap, but we wouldn’t, you know, we’re not gonna be crazy money. If you don’t have a book, you don’t have that portable book to bring with you.

 

Marko Evans  [21:53]

You know, I don’t know if you’re a sports fan or not. But you know, I’m watching what’s happening right now. And the NFL, the trades that are happening, you know, this quarterback sport of this team, one’s going to another team. You know, it all depends on the need of the firm. You know, if you’ve got a firm that really needs a transactional corporate attorney, they are they are going to, you know, they’re going to do what they can’t bring in that practice area to serve as their clientele. It’s that simple. You know, if you need a quarterback, you got to hire one can’t run if you can’t run them without a quarterback

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:24]

play, you just bring Brady back, right? You guys did. So that took care of that. But, you know, in the bears forget, like, what are we doing? We’d have no clue what we’re doing here in Chicago. And I’m not a sports fan in the sense of I’m not like watching games and stuff. I play sports. I don’t watch sports. I’m a real man. Not at all with but I like to fish and play paddle sports. Okay, so moving along. The next question, I had a really good question. I’m trying to remember what it was the lawyers who are at their firms now. And all this craziness is sort of happening around them, and they’re just kind of keeping their heads down. They’re happy at their job. They’re getting paid what they’ve been paid. And things are kind of moving around them crazily. What should they be asking for things? Should they they should they be taking advantage of this time, not in a negative negative way, but in a way that says, like, there are people that are being brought in as associates that are getting paid? You know, just under what I’m getting paid as a partner or there are people that are, you know, it just there’s some stuff going on? Should they be should they be? What should they be thinking about the people that are add that lawyers from the lawyer’s perspective,

 

Marko Evans  [23:35]

you know, the real interesting thing that happened that you could have never anticipated during the pandemic was that people wanted to talk. You know, they were they were great getting on the phone or having an email conversation or doing zoom. You know, maybe we weren’t going out to lunch together for all the obvious reasons. But people wanted to talk, people wanted to be listened to one of my favorite quotes from one of my clients that the guy’s got to be close to 75 years old. He’s still got a small practice in Hollywood, Florida. And I said, How is it that you don’t have any turnover? And we were out to lunch the time when he goes, every morning, when I get in, I walked every desk, and there are only 11 of them, have walked to every desk and I ask people how they’re doing. And I would know something about their family, I know something about their husband, their wife, their kids, things that are happening, and I make it personal. And they respect me for that. And when we did an analysis of the salaries that they were paying, they were fairly compensated, but they weren’t at the high end and they weren’t at the low end. And so there are things that you can do as a managing partner, to keep your staff engaged. Of course, we talked about training earlier. But if you are somebody that is concerned about where they are in the market, you know, it’s look around, you know, there are opportunities He’s out there for somebody that that, you know, has a unique skill that maybe they they are leaving some money on the table. Or they can see a guy like you that will help them develop their book bigger. And if they’re formulaic ly compensated, your salaries are going to go up, you said something that’s completely right. There are partners that are getting paid at the same level as associates are, but remember that the partners are all on a formula. So if you’re not producing and you’re not originating, you’re, you’re gonna get stuck at that lower salary level.

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:29]

In, here’s the other thing that I’m I’m interested in and don’t know how it’s gonna play out and when it’s gonna play out, but if even the big firms are paying their people, and just generally firms are paying their lawyers significantly more than they have in the past, how’s that gonna work out in a year or two or three? As far as like the firm is going to make less money? I don’t think they like that. Is it going to go to the clients? Well, they’re not. They want to go the other way. They don’t want rate increases, they want rate decreases. So I’m just wondering, like, how is that all gonna play out? I don’t know, if you have a feeling about that.

 

Marko Evans  [26:04]

I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of a rate decrease. I do know.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:08]

Well, you know, what, like, they’re bringing in procurement departments, departments at the bigger firms and stuff like they’re trying to sharpen the pencil and trying to figure out how to make litigation, you know, more more, you know, efficient, cost effective. Sure, yeah.

 

Marko Evans  [26:22]

No, I get it. So, I mean, let’s face it, you know, how do you control costs? How do you control expenses? And how do you control the price of goods, all you have to do is turn on the TV, any channel, and they’re going to talk about inflation. So, you know, as inflation goes up, salaries have to go up to be able to, you know, to buy formula, or gas or go out to dinner, or whatever it is that you need to spend your money on. But that’s a critical component people need to make more money.

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:46]

So let me ask you, Is it is it an opportunity? Again, you and I are just talking talking shop a little bit here. But I always see some of these things like opportunities for the mid market, I see opportunities for the small firm the mid market, because as rates go up with the big firms, because they can’t they can’t go down, right? They got to keep their line the same. In their rates get even crazier. And there’s some people that will go with them no matter what, but there may be a percentage that said, Look, this is getting insane. The mid market has a lot of talent, why are we looking there to offset some of these, you know, these costs? And should should mid market attorneys be looking? I think, you know, I’m telling my people too, but looking at, you know, trying to poach some, some business from the big firms?

 

Marko Evans  [27:29]

It’s a great question. And, you know, if I were to have my own law firm, I would be a middle market firm. And there there are several national firms that kind of fit into that category. Marshall, Dennehey, Buchanan, Ingersoll, Louis bras, boy, Fox Racz out Cozen. O’Connor? They are they have rate flexibility in what they’re able to charge to a client. You know, if I needed legal fees done? Am I going to spend $1,300 an hour on a New York lawyer? No, but I’d certainly spend half of that on a New York lawyer that’s working in a middle market firm. I mean, I think I think that’s the coup de gras, where do you have both, and that lawyer knows that they have have to produce more work and that their clients are going to be fewer and far between, but that’s a good thing. I think it’s easier to land a car dealership than it is to land a Ford, it’s easier to, to, to to originate a distillery than it is to work with Bacardi. And these lawyers know that. And the companies know that. You know, if you go to work for an am 100 firm, the retainers are $50,000 minimum, and your hourly rates are are quickly approaching 1000 an hour that limits the amount of business that you can bring in. So when you’re originating work, you know, it’s it’s, it’s hard. And I’ll tell you there’s another thing that we hear at the bigger firms, the the more senior partners are very protective of their origination credit. So in other words, if you bring in Wells Fargo and Florida, there may be a partner in New York that says, Well, they’ve been my client for 25 years. That’s my origination that may have no connection at all to Florida or Chicago or anywhere else. But that lawyer many years ago, planted the flag. So and I think that mid sized firms are more agile. And they do something called a fee share a fee credit, where they’ll they’ll split an origination, they’ll talk to the guy in New York and he gets 20% And the guy in Florida, Chicago, Dallas, you could say 80% because he really brought in the work but and respect to the the attorney that originally landed it, he gets a piece of it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:43]

Well And interestingly enough, I mean, I’m training attorneys on how to negotiate internally, when they bring in business or share business with their partners because here’s what’s happening if somebody doesn’t want to share their origination credit, and they’re gonna give you you know, hundreds of hours of work to do and you then don’t have the ability to use that those hours on your own stuff, or to go out and originate your own stuff, you’re at now at, you know, at a loss in certain ways to balance your disadvantage. So I’m explaining to them, you know, you may, you could tell them, Look, I’m not taking on that work, I’m not going to take on that client or take on that work, if I don’t get a cut, because I have a limited amount of time and hours and origination, I need to maximize it. And my clients know, we’re going after the gold, and we’re going after the money and, and we can’t afford to just Bill hours that are handed to us, because that’s just taken away from all of our billable all of our time that’s in our ability to go and develop our own clients. So crazy stuff, man. Let’s wrap up on that. I do want to ask you about your book, though, than anything else you want. Before we go on anything else you want to share wrapping things up Marco. Yeah, there

 

Marko Evans  [30:53]

is I read an interesting article that managing partners are getting to a point now and this was an edict at one of the large firms. I don’t remember the name, that they must share the origination credit to the younger attorneys, you know, sort of encourages them to be active on a file to be responsive because they’re getting a credit on I think that’s a great strategy. I just wanted to add that

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:16]

in some firms have a three way and you mentioned to at the beginning, there’s billable, there’s origination, and then they have a thing called managing credit score, which acts as origination, right. And so then, even though they didn’t originate, but they’re managing it, they’re running it they’re talking with with the with the GC all the time, et cetera, they’re scared of getting credit for that time and effort that’s being put in on top of the billable hours. And so so a nice mix of those, I think firms that have updated comp systems, that takes into into consideration those three elements seem to have a better culture than the ones that have formulas that are archaic, and sort of like are the wild west where nothing is there’s no formula, then I decided what the formula is at the end of the year, and then, you know, hope for the best.

 

Marko Evans  [31:59]

Well, Steve, I mean, you bring up a really good point. I think the you know, it is important that people understand how they’re going to make money and the firm’s are split down the middle closed compensation, open compensation. I know what you make, you know, what I make, I originated more, I make more, I produce more I make more. You know, that works. I mean, people want transparency, all you have to do is turn on the nightly news and and see what’s going on in our on our politics to know that people want to be informed.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:28]

Yeah, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. All right. And so our last segment of our of our show today, Marco is game changing books, and there’s a game changing book that you sent submitted to me called who’s in your room? And hopefully that’s not a creepy thing. Okay, because it sounds a little creepy just hearing it, but it’s by Ivan Meisner. So I’ve never heard of that book before. So who’s in my room? What should I who’s in your room? What’s that? Like? Give me the very short synopsis of that? And then and then why you submitted that to me?

 

Marko Evans  [32:58]

Yeah, absolutely. So 35 years ago, Ivan Meisner decided that he was trying to figure out how to grow his CPA firm business. And so he assembled a group of guys together and they started having breakfast. And later on in life, a nickname that they came up with a name called BNI, business networking International. Ivan is the founder and chief visionary officer of BNI. And that’s one of the books that that he wrote, he’s written several, but I really liked that one, because I think it’s applicable to people that you’re spending time with in your life.

 

Steve Fretzin  [33:32]

And what’s the what’s the big takeaway, like, if you just say, the biggest takeaway from that book was

 

Marko Evans  [33:36]

the biggest takeaway in that book is who you’re spending time with? Yeah, we all have that one friend that you know, whatever happens, you know, they start the conversation with you’ll never believe what happened to me today. What is your car, your house, your dog, you know, you need to spend time with people that elevate you, and bring you up to another level. And that’s BNI is all about. I’m the president of the largest chapter in the southeast. It’s called Biscayne connection. And it’s a great way to help attorneys originate work. We have 18 lawyers in the chapter. And it all ties back to that book and spending time with people that can help you and will lift you up.

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:09]

Awesome. Awesome. Well, Marco, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom and having this really engaging conversation. I think lawyers are really interested in hearing the opinion of of a top recruiter and someone that’s really kind of interfacing with all these different lawyers and law firms and in on the ground floor of it. If people want to get in touch with you to hear more about you or reach out directly for your help. What’s the best way for them to reach you?

 

Marko Evans  [34:33]

Yeah, please just visit our website. It’s now hiring you three words altogether, and now hiring you.com

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:41]

Beautiful, beautiful. Thanks again. I really appreciate you spending some time with me and my audience. You got it. Thank you so much. Hey, everybody. Thank you for spending some time with Marco and today hopefully you got a couple of good thoughts, ideas, takeaways, and, again, always happy to counsel and help lawyers who are interested in moving or not moving or are interested in growing their books of business as we talked about in some detail today, you know, it’s a big part of what allows you to control your life control your destiny, and really be able to decide, do I want to go stay go off on my own. Having your own clients is the key and most lawyers know that the lawyers who don’t know that probably have their head in the sand or don’t care, then that’s okay too. Again, different strokes for different folks. Like again, you know, be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and that’s something that that’s a good mantra. Take care everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.

 

Narrator  [35:38]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes