In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Educate discuss:
- Effective habits for business development and client relationships
- Relationship-driven networking and sustained client loyalty
- The impact of mentorship and personal values on professional growth
- The importance of active listening and sales-free selling techniques
Key Takeaways:
- Making business development a regular, ingrained part of the daily routine is essential for long-term success and should not be left as an “end-of-day” task.
- Building a client relationship based on trust and a commitment to solving client issues, even outside one’s specific expertise, can strengthen loyalty and ensure clients return.
- Personal experiences and relationships, such as advice from family, shape and inform approaches to client interactions, stressing genuine investment in client outcomes.
- Developing an initial personal network—family, friends, and peers—early on can lay a foundation for a robust client base, emphasizing relationship depth over formal networking.
“People want to work with people that they respect and admire and people they feel like ‘get it’… it’s not just about the case in front of you. It’s not just about the client relationship in front of you. It’s making that person’s life that much easier.” — Michael Educate
Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://fretzin.com/blog/category/events/
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Episode References:
The Par Train – A Mental Golf Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-par-train-a-mental-golf-show/id1136003885
About Michael Educate: Michael Educate is a trial lawyer engaged in all aspects of dispute resolution and strategic counseling, both in commercial litigation and in tax controversy matters. He has experience across various legal areas and industries for clients of all sizes, from small, privately held businesses to multinational enterprises, and particularly focuses his practice on representing clients in the financial industry as well as motor vehicle manufacturers and distributors. Mike is also frequently called upon to handle disputes involving asset and business valuations and complex damages claims.
Connect with Michael Educate:
Website: https://www.bfkn.com/people/michaeleducate
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeleducate/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, my Be That Lawyer fans. Are you struggling with the same uphill battle? Growing new business without losing your sanity? It might be time management, a lack of a structured plan, or outdated business development strategies that are keeping you from reaching your full potential. But what if I told you there’s a better way?
[00:00:16] Steve Fretzin: In this exclusive, no presentation, no PowerPoint, interactive 60 minute session, you’ll work directly with me on your specific challenges. This event is a no brainer. Please join me on November 15th from 1 to 2 p. m. Central to level up your B. E. D. game. Seating is limited to only the first 20 attorneys who register, so get to it now.
[00:00:35] Steve Fretzin: Go to my website, Fretzin. com slash events to sign up today and hope to see you there.
[00:00:44] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice.
[00:01:06] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back. It is the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. I’m Steve Fretzin, your host, and I’m so thrilled that you’re here today. We have a lot to cover. We’ve got a really unique and interesting show for you today, like most weeks, but yes, this one will be specifically interesting. And I’ve got a good buddy of mine, Mike, here waiting in the wings.
[00:01:23] Steve Fretzin: How you doing, Mike? I have no complaints. I am rocking and rolling here and, uh, business is great. I’m working all over the world, which is really cool. And uh, and I’m happy that we get to talk shop today, but as everyone knows, that’s listened to this podcast before, I’m a big fan of the quote of the show.
[00:01:42] Steve Fretzin: And I want to talk about that a little bit. And that is the habit of persistence is the habit of victory. And that’s Herbert Kaufman, a lovely man. Talk to us about that. And welcome to the show, Mike. Thanks
[00:01:53] Michael Educate: You know, it’s really great to be on this, Dave, and you and I have known each other for a few years, so I always applaud you for getting a chance to chat with you about stuff that’s near and dear to our hearts.
[00:02:00] Michael Educate: So that’s sort of a quote that It’s one of those quotes where I never really knew where it came from. Would you look it up? Let me actually Google it and who’s out. But it’s frankly, it sort of reflects, I think a lot of the habits that I took from my dad. Was an insurance agent with State Farm for more than 50 years, self made guide and no college education, hustled for everything.
[00:02:22] Michael Educate: It was the sort of person that, you know, we’re taking another quote right from Vince Lombardi of perfect practice making perfect, right? If you 90 percent of what we do, whether it’s sales law, anything else I think is showing up and being reliable and being dependent and doing the right things, the right way repetitively, right.
[00:02:39] Michael Educate: And that’s whether, and that’s for people of all walks
[00:02:41] Steve Fretzin: of life, I think. But I think, Mike, I’m going to interrupt you right in the middle of your sentence, because it’s my show and I can do that. No, but it’s, but there’s a, there’s a word in there that really is so important, and it’s the, it’s the word habit.
[00:02:53] Steve Fretzin: And to make a habit of persistence, like you could have a habit of good time management, or a habit of being on time, or whatever it might be, we all develop good and bad habits. And a habit of persistence, how do you think that happens? How do people develop that?
[00:03:08] Michael Educate: Well, it’s sort of the layman’s way of looking at it.
[00:03:10] Michael Educate: I think, right. I think most people go back to if you do something for 21 days in a row, it becomes a habit, right? But I think being diligent about the aspects of your work or your practice that are going to create dividends down the road and making that part of your day to day routine so that it’s built in and it’s not just an add on at the end of your day.
[00:03:30] Michael Educate: Let’s take an easy example and, uh, Promote, uh, be that lawyer for a little bit. I think one of the great things that you teach people, right. Is that if you make business development and networking and marketing, sort of an add on, right. That, Oh, I have to get to this at the end of the day or, Oh crap, it’s Thursday and I haven’t sent any emails.
[00:03:48] Michael Educate: It’s not going to happen that you have to build it into part of your routine. That you can do it on a repeat on a repetitive and consistent and effective basis. And if you don’t do that, it’s always going to fall into the wayside. Cause he’s always got, we’ve always got some other project in front of us.
[00:04:02] Michael Educate: And I think the way that my dad always viewed it was there’s always another bill you got to pay, right? There’s always another app that you could fill out for an insurance policy, right? But sometimes you need to take that time and you need to build it in where you’re meeting new people, building relationships, and focusing on those soft skills that don’t necessarily pay an immediate dividend because 10 years down the road, you can be like some of the people I know across the industry at white shoe firms where they go, Oh my God, I lost all this time.
[00:04:25] Michael Educate: And now I’m a service partner and I’m, I’m drowning here. So I think that for me is the key. And so there’s different ways to do that. What I’ve tended to focus on is. You know, I’m lucky to be in Chicago at a great firm of about 100, 115 lawyers that are what I like to call is not quite full service.
[00:04:42] Michael Educate: Right. But we do a lot of work across the space and I really like to do something my dad used to refer to as full circle selling, which is you’re not just hiring me, but here’s everything else we can bring to the table. Don’t just come to me because I’m a trial attorney with 10 years of experience.
[00:04:56] Michael Educate: Don’t come to me just because I’m going to get neck deep in your issues and would you hire me hire me because I’ve got this team behind me, I’ve got great colleagues, et cetera. But if you don’t build that into your day to day and make that part of your, not just your pitch, but part of who you are as a person and how you present yourself day to day, it’s not going to happen.
[00:05:16] Steve Fretzin: Well, to add on, uh, the premise of business development as a habit becomes so ingrained that you don’t, there are people that do it for long enough, you and I, and others that. We don’t really have to think about doing it. It’s just a part of our day. When I’m not in doing a podcast or meeting with a client, right?
[00:05:34] Steve Fretzin: What am I doing? Well, I’m doing a bunch of administrative work. Well, no. Am I doing all of my marketing and social media posting that my marketing assistant does? No. So it’s like we can, we can build this in not only as a habit, but also I think it becomes enjoyable when you become good at something and that’s really what persistence and habits can do.
[00:05:55] Steve Fretzin: Right. Totally agree. Totally agree on that. You’re the partner that you mentioned, Beric Berzano, and the thing that you and I talked about pre show was We both have such an affinity for our dads, your dad is an insurance professional, and my dad is Larry the lawyer, the late great Larry the lawyer, that we may have some fun talking about our dads and having sort of like a dad show, and the quotes that they had, and like what we can learn from our fathers, that would be useful to people listening today, and so I thought we would start off with one of the quotes that your dad, oh wait, before we get to that, Sorry, man.
[00:06:28] Steve Fretzin: Give a little background because I want to just make sure everyone knows, like, exactly who you are, where you’re from, and you covered a little bit, but let’s get into it. So, currently
[00:06:36] Michael Educate: I’m a trial attorney at Barrick Verrazano here in Chicago, where I’m engaged in all aspects of dispute resolution and strategic counseling in commercial litigation and in tax litigation matters, right, and specifically in tax litigation for disputes against the Internal Revenue Service.
[00:06:52] Michael Educate: And what’s nice, I think, about my practice is When you hire a firm like us, right, it’s not going to be like a white shoe firm that’s getting 10 to 12 guys that are staffed on a case. We’re generally very leanly staffed, where my focus is always, everyone’s got to know the issue, get neck deep in the issues, and everybody on my team has to be going in the same direction.
[00:07:10] Michael Educate: And I’m a big believer that if you hire me, you get me, and no one’s going to outwork me on my cases. Right. That we’re all rowing in the same direction for the client relationship. But we’re, you know, as I mentioned, we’re sort of a not quite full service law firm and we’re based here, but we work nationwide.
[00:07:24] Michael Educate: Most of the time I, you know, we’re able to do, you know, do whatever our clients need, but I pride myself on being one of those people that if I can’t do it, I make sure it’s my mission for anybody, whether they’re a paying client today or a prospective client or a friend. To put them in touch with the right person.
[00:07:41] Michael Educate: As I like to say, and this isn’t my dad, this is just me, I don’t need to be your last call, I want to be your first.
[00:07:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I love that though, because that’s what separates, I think, a lawyer from a counselor, a lawyer from a conciliary, someone that is the first call that, A client will make when they have a problem, it’s, you know, right.
[00:07:58] Steve Fretzin: And let’s just lean into that for a moment. My dad, as everyone knows, Larry, the lawyer, he was that guy. He was the guy that, he didn’t have all the answers, but he would find the answers and he was the one they would confide and trust at such a level that whether they had, you know, personal, emotional problems, whether they needed a new job, whatever it was that they needed, they would call Larry first.
[00:08:18] Steve Fretzin: And I think he became so ingrained in their lives. He was more than just a lawyer handling matters. And that’s what I think we want people to realize with business developments, part of that, because part of business development, not always how we bring them in, but how we build client loyalty and how we build the relationship and the trust at such a level that they never leave because we are doing the job.
[00:08:40] Steve Fretzin: And more. I think that’s
[00:08:41] Michael Educate: exactly right. And, you know, I think you’ll certainly run into people that. Believe that everybody’s expendable, right? And to some extent that’s technically true, right? My biggest kind of approach to any client relationship I have or any cases I’m helping another colleague on. It is, I want to make sure that they know that I’m personally invested in their success.
[00:09:01] Michael Educate: Not sugarcoating, give appropriate risk assessments, but also, you know, being that consigliere to use your word. I always like being compared to Robert Duvall. So I’m going to take, yeah, I mean, that’s right now, but I think that’s essential because people want to work with people that they respect and admire in life and people that they feel like, get it right.
[00:09:19] Michael Educate: Yeah. Quote unquote, get it. It’s not about just the case in front of you. It’s not just about the client relationship in front of you, it’s making that person’s life that much easier, however it might be, regardless of whether or not you can take the work or not.
[00:09:32] Steve Fretzin: So, let’s talk a little bit about your father, and there was a quote that you mentioned to me, not even for the show, it was just in talking in our regular conversations that he would say, you can’t listen to yourself, you can’t listen to yourself into trouble, and I wrote that down because I That is so good.
[00:09:48] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, and I have comment about that specifically, but I want to hear your take on it. What did he kind of mean by that?
[00:09:54] Michael Educate: Right. Well, my dad was a big believer that besides the fact that he, you know, in doing his career at State Farm for over 50 years, he was certainly a sales guy through and through, but he was always very good about the personal touch.
[00:10:06] Michael Educate: And frankly, Steve, I think he invented sales reselling. I know that’s your motto, but I think he invented it. Because he was always, you should be in listening mode when you talk to a client or a potential customer, right? You need to be identifying what their pressure points are, what’s keeping them up at night.
[00:10:23] Michael Educate: And if you come out of the gate just selling yourself, right, you’re often going to miss what are they actually concerned about. His big phrase, and it was, I think he learned it from a friend of his that was also an insurant. You can’t listen to yourself into trouble. Where his view was, if I’m doing my job right, And I’ve demonstrated to you that I’m competent.
[00:10:42] Michael Educate: I will make myself available. I’m there whenever you need me. And if I’m not the right guy, I’ll get you in touch with the right person. Good things are going to happen. Right? So putting yourself in that position to be an active listener and a participant in your client’s story, in whatever your client is doing.
[00:10:58] Michael Educate: Go ahead.
[00:10:58] Steve Fretzin: Listen, I mean, sales free selling wasn’t invented out of thin air. I mean, I had to study, right? I had to study your dad and everyone like your dad to take the concepts of what sales should be and what sales was, you know? It was the sizzle of the steak, it was convincing people, it was pitching, it was talking, it was, you know, how flashy can I be?
[00:11:19] Steve Fretzin: And we have to flip it on its end and say, look, we can’t do that anymore because it doesn’t feel right for anybody. Right. And on the other side of it, how much more are we going to learn and understand and empathize when we ask questions versus when we talk and the other thing that I want to spin and that I want to get back to you is my take on this was also, it’s very hard for people to raise objections when you’re not talking, which is very similar.
[00:11:43] Steve Fretzin: I mean, like stolen right from your dad, basic anyway.
[00:11:46] Michael Educate: Oh, you, well, you kind of, well, uh, you know, I don’t see my father passed about five years ago. And after that, I’m going to turn to the picture behind me. After he passed, my mom had found in the basement a bunch of pamphlets that when he was at Allstate that they’d put together because he was one of their career salesmen before he had started his own agency with State Farm.
[00:12:06] Michael Educate: And she sort of passed the, she passed it out at his wake, but he was always known as being a very business oriented, business minded person. So people kind of got a chuckle out of it. It’s obviously not something you typically see in a But anyway, my wife’s had it French for me, and he’s got a line in here, right at the end, it’s like a magazine that Alstead used to publish, and they had a full article on him in it back in the 60s.
[00:12:27] Michael Educate: Where he talks about, I seek that yes as soon as possible. When I walk in the door and my prospect wants to hang up my coat, I say, it’s okay if I leave it here. He says, yeah, sure. If he wants to sit in the kitchen, I say, how about the dining room? It’s hard for a prospect to tell a stranger no, especially after he’s invited the stranger to his home.
[00:12:44] Michael Educate: I may further ask it. Would you please get me a glass of water? He says, sure. By the time I get to my presentation, the man has said yes, or at least agreed with me three, four times. Point being, you want to put people in a position where they’re a comfortable and B are already in the mode of wanting to talk to you and he doesn’t have to do a whole lot more than that.
[00:13:01] Michael Educate: Yeah. I mean, he, and he taught me this all the time. He also did house calls. well into his 70s. He died at 86 and basically worked until he became ill, but he was still doing house visits for clients as far south as on the south side. He had an office in Park Ridge, but he’d go all the way down to almost Calumet city in Indiana.
[00:13:20] Michael Educate: He had clients all the way up in Rockford and he was still doing house calls, taking pictures for the home insurance policies. It would take that time to meet with people. And he, you know, he talks about a presentation in here. But by the time I knew him in the nineties and two thousands, you know, I was a little, my dad was a little bit older.
[00:13:33] Michael Educate: He had had a previous marriage and had a couple other kids. And so I was in a later marriage. By the time I knew him, he didn’t really have a presentation. What he was selling was himself, his personality, his alley, his mindset, his drive. He wasn’t pitching people on, Oh, I’ve got a better rate on, you know, this app as opposed to all state or, Oh, you can bundle, right?
[00:13:55] Michael Educate: Like, it’s not like, you know, flow for progressive. You didn’t have to do that. Right. What he’s selling you was competence, know how and enthusiasm. And so I try to take that away in terms of what I’m doing for my relationships and my clients. But I think it’s exactly right, Steve, is that if you’re doing your job, right, you don’t actually really have to pitch anything.
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[00:14:32] Steve Fretzin: io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
[00:14:56] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com, and apply for membership today. And the thing that I continually try to reinforce in the clients that I work with is, It isn’t about the power of your presentation it’s really about the ability to ask great questions and continue to take someone down a rabbit hole that’s their own rabbit hole they created it with their legal problem or with their their lack of business development acumen or whatever it is.
[00:15:31] Steve Fretzin: I’m just asking, and then, I don’t know if this is Oprah or Howard Stern or whomever does, you know, great interviews, 60 Minutes, but they don’t just ask a question and solve or ask a question and listen and then ask another question, ask a question and then, you know, after they respond, ask another question, take it deeper and deeper and deeper, that’s where the truth is and that’s where the business is, people just don’t realize that it’s two or three layers underneath Where they may start with their problem.
[00:15:57] Steve Fretzin: The problem is, you know, my partner’s screwing me and I need to sue him. Okay, so that’s, we think that, okay, we hear sue him. Let’s talk about how we sue people. And it’s, that’s not where the business is. It’s how many beneath that and how much is going on beneath that connects us as humans and as someone that has belief that there’s a solution because you’re the one asking and listening.
[00:16:19] Michael Educate: I think that’s exactly right. And I think to even broaden that beyond sales, right. It’s not just about getting the sale. It’s also, if you’re listening, you can actually help whoever it is, solve the problem, right? In my case, this was a great example. A couple of weeks ago, I had a potential client that I’ve known for a while.
[00:16:35] Michael Educate: Independent business owner, great person has been immensely frustrated with their litigation counsel and other matter. And we were talking a little bit about the litigation, but what actually popped up. Is, was totally unrelated where they were also venting about a trademark issue they were having, where they felt like their previous lawyer could screw up the registrations.
[00:16:54] Michael Educate: And, you know, they would have to get a new trademark and it was a whole mess. And I said, well, actually our firm is premier in that, right. You know, it’s one of the main IP services we provide, but if I had just been recommending to her what she should do about the litigation, I never would have heard about that.
[00:17:07] Michael Educate: You know, putting that person in that mode of thinking about. All the frustrations they have all the concerns they have you can find opportunities to help them Right and that would be a matter if that were to come in. I wouldn’t even work on it I’m, not a big believer in you know, working a file just to prove that I laid eyes on it I often tell my clients, you know, hey I’ve got people that are really competent here.
[00:17:26] Michael Educate: It’s a great firm. If I’m not the guy, someone else here could probably do it. And that way I’m solutions oriented. It doesn’t necessarily show up on my balance sheet, but they’ll come
[00:17:34] Steve Fretzin: back. So let’s get one more in before we go to the next subject of something that your father gave to you as a gift in the business development sales realm that, that really has inspired you to take things to the next level.
[00:17:47] Steve Fretzin: Cause you’re not someone who wants to. Just bill an unlimited number of hours every single year you want and have a drive and a desire to grow business Do we include his sandwich that I took out of his van? I know that sandwich very much very well and I The things that we steal from our parents, that’s a different show.
[00:18:06] Michael Educate: That’s a different show That’s a different show. No, I you know, I think one my You know, I grew up very differently in a lot of ways than my dad did it. You know, I was lucky to have, I was fortunate to have really great experiences at great institutions and learned a lot from people that are way smarter than I’m ever going to be.
[00:18:21] Michael Educate: My dad was a self made guy, no college degree, played minor league baseball for a couple of years. Worked for the bell company for a while, sold copper. That was a beat cop. His famous story is that he pulled over Joe DiMaggio after a game where Joe DiMaggio was way too drunk. Oh my God. But anyway, that’s a whole other show.
[00:18:38] Michael Educate: Take the kind of person that by virtue of his experience, he had met a lot of people and he knew a lot, he had a lot of very close friends at very wide spectrums in terms of age, background, income, education, he could talk to anybody and a lot of his friends would come over on a regular basis to the house and, you know, since I was, you know, this high, I’ll take it off camera like that high.
[00:19:00] Michael Educate: I was exposed to a lot of really interesting people from a lot of different walks of life where, you know, it doesn’t really matter where you come from, I’ve got a good shot that I’m going to be able to empathize with you or at minimum sympathize. And figure out a workable solution. My dad was always very good about no matter where you came from, he was going to try to become your best friend and not because there was necessarily a motivation about it, but that’s just sort of the personality that he wants.
[00:19:22] Michael Educate: He loved being around people. Um, and I think it’s made my practice that much more effective where, you know, I got a great compliment from a client last week that said, you’re my kind of litigator. You’re always upbeat. You’re always engaged. And put another way, they said, you always give a shit.
[00:19:38] Steve Fretzin: Well, you know, I want to cut back in though, the thing that you said about your dad sort of making friends is in line with a quote.
[00:19:44] Steve Fretzin: I wrote down before we even started this podcast for my dad, which was, he said, if you can’t make a sale, make a friend. First of all, let’s just acknowledge that my dad said the word sale, right? That he knew that this was sales, right? Like that getting busy, he didn’t have to do much of it because he was so great at what he did and things just came his way.
[00:20:03] Steve Fretzin: But the fact that he kind of picked that up and said that to me on multiple occasions, I think is right in line with your dad in the sense of, not everybody’s going to do business with you. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a friend. It doesn’t mean that they won’t refer you or think of you down the road.
[00:20:16] Michael Educate: But, and I think that’s, it’s true. And I, and you and I were talking about this a little bit, I think your dad was very similar to mine in this, that A, the worst thing that anybody can say is no, but B, the overwhelming majority of people, if you frame it the right way and help them help you, want to help you.
[00:20:32] Michael Educate: Yeah. Right. You know, no one really, you know, no one gets excited, you know, well, there’s some evil people out there, but I think most people are not in the business of trying to see how they can make other people miserable and deny people help and deny people opportunities. And so, you know, you always talk about, right.
[00:20:48] Michael Educate: The second best answer is no. Right. You know, I think more broadly, that’s. I think people are always in the mood of trying to help each other, even if it’s not going to be them that’s providing the help, but putting yourself out there. I’m not a big believer in sort of the, my dad was a big believer in the secret.
[00:21:03] Michael Educate: I don’t know if you’d ever heard of that or the, yeah, I
[00:21:05] Steve Fretzin: do like that. And I think there was a Oprah promoted the video or whatever it was, or produced it, something like that.
[00:21:10] Michael Educate: Right now, I, you know, I was sort of a know it all when I was a teenager and I would sort of poopoo it, but I think there’s truth in.
[00:21:17] Michael Educate: If you’re putting yourself out there repeatedly as that kind of person and that kind of personality, yes, good things will happen to you because they want, you know, people want to work with people and collaborate with people that they respect and like. And so in that sense, my dad had it spot on and frankly is a lesson I wish I’d really kind of internalized sooner.
[00:21:33] Michael Educate: You know, sort of as a teenager, know it all kid who went off the aisle, I sort of thought I had all the answers. Fun fact, I wish I could go back in time and slap that guy around. But my dad was, you know, my dad had a lot of really great wisdom about how to deal with people, which now I feel like has really paid off for me in spades, has really made my practice a joy.
[00:21:53] Michael Educate: Has really made it fun to work with my colleagues and the client base that we serve really been incredible and I owe a lot of that to him in terms of the attitude mindset and being able to get out there and put yourself out there in the best light possible.
[00:22:05] Steve Fretzin: Well, let’s give a shout out to our pops and our dads and all that.
[00:22:09] Steve Fretzin: And if you guys are listening, be appreciative. You know, we didn’t all have great childhoods. We didn’t have all great parents, but if you did, and there was something that you could learn from them and bring to your kids or to bring to your life. You know, take a moment and really think about that and be appreciative because, you know, you know, there are some people without parents or whatever it might be.
[00:22:30] Steve Fretzin: Let’s change subjects a little bit. So there’s a question I want to ask you about going from associate to partner and, and what are some of the best decisions that you made? Because I know there are associates listening that want to make partner, they want to, you know, develop and build a book of business that helps you build your own practice as a partner.
[00:22:47] Steve Fretzin: What are some things that you’d share? Start building relationships early. Yeah.
[00:22:51] Michael Educate: That’s not to say go look for business as a first year associate, right? Because I get, I was there, right? I started at Mayor Brown in their tax controversy practice. And the main reason I’d gone there is I really wanted trial experience.
[00:23:03] Michael Educate: So they had a few cases that were in line to go. And I. Was able to get on one or two of those fantastic experience, right? But let’s not kill ourselves, right? If you’re starting at a big firm like that in particular, right? You are not really expected, nor can you really bring in a case. I mean, you can get lucky, right?
[00:23:19] Michael Educate: But most people don’t have that. So what you shouldn’t be doing is investing in your relationships and that can look totally different to different people, right? So my approach was. I joined the University Club of Chicago after I graduated when, you know, they’re like, Hey, there’s no down stroke. Come on in.
[00:23:35] Michael Educate: You’ll, you know, we’ll put you on the junior membership rate and there, you know, they’ve got a lot of really great professionals that are now some of my closest friends. My wife and I, at our wedding, we have three tables worth of university club people. And they’re still not just my closest friends, but still my best referral sources today.
[00:23:49] Michael Educate: But I think it’s you need to find whatever that network or community or relationship building opportunity it’s going to be that you can make part of your day to day, make it a habit, right? So that it’s not, Oh, I have to go do this and I’m not going to do the, Oh, I get to do this. No, it’s just, you build it into your day.
[00:24:04] Michael Educate: So for me, for example, you know, I’m downtown four to five days a week still, and I make it my business to make sure I go to the gym in the morning, have a half hour. I can just chat with people, learn what they do, how they tick, what they care about. And then I’ll come to work and then if I’ve got time after work, I’ll go over to the university club, grab a drink or coffee, whoever’s there and just chat.
[00:24:28] Michael Educate: If I didn’t build that in my day to day, it wasn’t going to happen. And so I think that’s also true for young attorneys is if you don’t build in that time, you’re never going to make time because you’ll always say, Oh, I don’t have it. Well, no, it’s just, you haven’t made it, you haven’t built it in. But the right people will, I think the right people internalize that.
[00:24:44] Michael Educate: You know, a good example is a close friend of mine who’s also an attorney and I were getting coffee. And, you know, he mentioned, you know, I just don’t know, you know, where to even begin. And I said, well, write down the names of 25 people that are your friends. It doesn’t matter if they’re attorney, if they’re working professionals and they’re downtown, or you feel comfortable enough to give them a call and say, Hey, you know, I’m trying to build this out.
[00:25:07] Michael Educate: I’d like an introduction. That’s an easy place to start. That’s your network. That doesn’t require a country club membership. That doesn’t require a private club membership. That doesn’t require that you go join the associate board of an organization. That’s just working with the people you have. But if, even if you start there.
[00:25:21] Michael Educate: I mean, I started, you know, I kind of reworked my list about two, three months ago and I started, okay, start with 25, 30 people. That list is now 120 and it’s been two months since I kind of reorganized my list and it’s already paying dividend. But I think if you start that earlier, you’ll be better off by the time that you’re up for partner, because then you’re able to signal to people, I can do this.
[00:25:40] Michael Educate: Just give me the breathing space.
[00:25:42] Steve Fretzin: Well, in, you know, it’s funny, I was playing golf yesterday with a guy who caddied, I caddied, uh, back when I was in college and everything in the summers and he did the same and he ended up getting his lifetime job because a member that he caddied for said, Hey, who was that kid who caddied, uh, he was really great, brought him into the organization, he worked his way up, etc.
[00:26:02] Steve Fretzin: And I thought, man, I was kicking myself. I’m like, I was at one of the most exclusive private clubs in the country. In college and i never i couldn’t tell you one person that i met the whole time because it wasn’t even a blip in my mind i was like how soon can i get out of here i have to drop off these two heavy bags so i just this it just didn’t occur to me and i was just.
[00:26:21] Steve Fretzin: You know and didn’t care to him either by the way you just got picked out but i’m just to reinforce what you’re saying college law school friends family neighbors church temple whatever it is that you’re doing. Think about the people that you like, think about the people that are connected and make sure that you’re meeting with them and talking with them because they will help you and it will lead to business.
[00:26:43] Michael Educate: No, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, there’s sort of the obvious, you never know, but I’m a big believer that if you put yourself in the right position, right, I think the way that your dad and my dad did, right. If you put yourself in the right position and keep putting yourself out there. And to the point that you reemphasize earlier, making it a habit, it doesn’t really matter what the environment is.
[00:27:01] Michael Educate: As long as you are putting together. Whether I don’t like to call it a roster, right? But if you’re building a community around you, right, and you’re focusing your energy in the right way, it can happen. It doesn’t, you know, sort of, yeah, I took the private university club route and then, you know, family, friends, and other guys at the law firm, right?
[00:27:19] Michael Educate: That doesn’t necessarily have to be the same pattern for everybody. Right. And I, frankly, I don’t think that’s necessary. Right. It depends upon who, you know, coming in, it depends upon who you’ve bumped into, but over time. Right? You’ll be surprised where stuff comes from. Even yesterday, I went to the bear game.
[00:27:33] Michael Educate: Finally, we have an offense. How about it? Yeah, I bought that. Who’d have thought? But I went to the bear game, and you know, I always do kind of a tailgate spread and I had family that came in town, and you know, I’m passing out food to people coming by, because I always know my family doesn’t eat everything I cook, right?
[00:27:48] Michael Educate: Not because it’s not good. I think my cooking’s great, but I cook way too much, so I’m passing it out. One person came over from three lots over who saw me and came by and said, Hey, what do you do? I said, Oh, I’m an attorney. And I talked about it. And she said, Oh, well, I represent, you know, so and so I’d love to get your card.
[00:28:03] Michael Educate: Let’s talk Monday. Holy mackerel tailgate win. You won
[00:28:07] Steve Fretzin: the game in the tailgate.
[00:28:08] Michael Educate: Right. But before putting yourself in the right place at the right time of putting yourself out there, that was never going to happen. Right now. That’s sort of a weird example, but I think it’s true, right? If you, you know, if you do enough of that, It’s sort of just statistically in the same way.
[00:28:22] Michael Educate: It’s the same method that dating apps work too, for, you know, for everybody out there and do,
[00:28:27] Steve Fretzin: I didn’t think we’d be going down this path, but okay.
[00:28:29] Michael Educate: No, but it’s true. Right. I know in some sense, it is a numbers game about if you’re, you know, if you keep putting yourself out there, it’s going to happen. Now don’t tell my wife that she says she hates the algorithm on the app we met on, but that’s ah,
[00:28:41] Steve Fretzin: there we go.
[00:28:42] Steve Fretzin: Hey, last thing as we wrap up though, I know you’ve been very complimentary to, you know, working with me and the program, anything you want to share with people about, you know, yes, there’s a lot you can do on there on your own, but maybe the value, whether it’s me or anybody, just the value of coaching.
[00:28:56] Michael Educate: I think it’s
[00:28:56] Steve Fretzin: really
[00:28:56] Michael Educate: important and not just because it’s your podcast tape.
[00:28:59] Michael Educate: No, I think, you know, I, I’ll put it this way. When I signed up for your program a few years ago, I was sort of convinced. I kind of know what I’m doing, but I’d really like kind of the, you know, the fine pointers and a different perspective and tweaking. And it turned out to be a lot more than that. I mean, there were some intuitions and insights that you had and how you framed, how you framed a lot of the kind of nuts and bolts of making meetings as effective as possible, how to do effective outreach by email or whatever method you’re going to use, how to make your social media presence that much more effective.
[00:29:31] Michael Educate: That. I thought, Oh, that makes sense, but I never thought about it that way. And that to me is a tremendous value add. And, you know, as I tell people all the time and I, you know, I’m a shameless promoter of Steve Fredson. I, you know, I think Steve Fredson is the best. Ah, wow. I’m going to have to have you back.
[00:29:46] Michael Educate: Yeah, right. Why not? No, I really loved your program. And to me, it’s you bring, you know, from my perspective, I thought, okay, I bring in one case and I really stick to what Steve’s taught and I internalize it. I’m not going to miss it, right? It’s going to be a great investment just for that one case. And, you know, as I’ve applied it over the last few years, I found a lot of things that I think I could have probably done naturally start turning the corner that much faster because I’m more systematic than I otherwise would have been.
[00:30:12] Steve Fretzin: And it’s certainly not that no one’s figured out business development before me. It’s absolutely not that we all know rainmakers, right? We all know people that have done it. It’s just how much faster can we do it? And with less, you know, painful, you know, Pain along the way, if you will,
[00:30:25] Michael Educate: right now, to me, I think the best takeaways I had from your program were how to make the networking and business development related tasks.
[00:30:35] Michael Educate: I’m building into my day to day that much more effective, that much more systematic and frankly, more persuasive and effective. Yeah. So I, and to me, what’s great about it too, is it doesn’t matter what stage in the process you are, right? You can feel you’re a rock star. And, you know, Steve, you know this better than I do, right?
[00:30:50] Michael Educate: You’ve got attorneys come to you that already have a healthy book, they find it tremendously valuable. I’ve talked to them since. Yeah. That’s the best plug I can give.
[00:30:57] Steve Fretzin: Well, listen, appreciate that. Uh, the commentary. And again, I think the other thing that, that we need to just mention is you have to have, you know, I’m the coach, you’re the player and the player played, right?
[00:31:08] Steve Fretzin: Players playing and has played. And so I can only demonstrate expertise and in someone that’s going to execute on what they’re learning. And you did that in spades, my friend. I appreciate that. Wrapping up with your favorite podcast, which I already feel like I know what it is, I’ve never heard it before, but this sounds pretty interesting.
[00:31:25] Steve Fretzin: The Par Train. The Par Train,
[00:31:28] Michael Educate: yes. Shameless plug for a good friend of mine from the University Club, who’s got a really great podcast with a friend of his. They, uh, essentially the content’s about, how do I put this? They do a really good job, I think, of helping people kind of, I don’t want to say dumb down the game, but kind of get out of your own head and go back to enjoying the game.
[00:31:46] Michael Educate: And we’re talking about golf for those who don’t know what par is. The Golf Focus podcast for the average player who is Trying to get better, trying to have more fun and frankly, kind of get out of their own headspace and go back to sort of enjoying the game. And I found it really helpful the last couple of years too.
[00:32:05] Michael Educate: I’ve been playing a little bit more, you know, in between work, but you know, but I, you know, I’m a fairly internally competitive person, but I’ve had a lot of great tech takeaways from that podcast about, you know, focusing kind of what’s in front of you and enjoying the moment and not getting ahead of yourself.
[00:32:22] Michael Educate: Or as I like to sometimes put it, Don’t look at the mountain, look at the path in front of you and just take it step by step. And frankly, I found it’s been really helpful to be outside of golf. But
[00:32:31] Steve Fretzin: a lot of golf, a lot of sports can leak into, uh, into our, you know, careers.
[00:32:35] Michael Educate: It absolutely can. Yeah. I’m a big fan of that podcast.
[00:32:38] Michael Educate: And they actually are good golfers, so it’s not like high handicappers doing this.
[00:32:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:32:41] Michael Educate: I can’t get on.
[00:32:43] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know. I thought about writing a book called, uh, How to Be a Bogey Golfer in Three Easy Steps. Well, you know, it’s, it’s, It’s coming soon to a bookstore near you.
[00:32:52] Michael Educate: It’s funny you mentioned that. I tried to pitch the part to her, like, hey, if you want to have a podcast focused on high handicapped golfers that are lawyers.
[00:32:57] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Let’s do that, right?
[00:32:59] Michael Educate: Right. Exactly. You know, my big pitch is, you know, I’m a good attorney because my handicap is not very low.
[00:33:04] Steve Fretzin: You’re right. It’s the handicaps that are under five or seven that you got to worry, are they really practicing the law? Exactly right. Hey, listen, we got to wrap up, Mike, but I want to thank you for being on the show.
[00:33:14] Steve Fretzin: I also want to thank our wonderful sponsors, Rankings. io. Check them out if you’re looking for more leads for your business in a plaintiff personal injury space. Hey everybody, check out the Law Her Podcast, committed to helping women get ahead in their legal careers. Amazing show. And of course I want to talk about the Rainmaker Roundtable.
[00:33:32] Steve Fretzin: If you are a successful rainmaker and you’re listening, or you know someone who is and they want to be in a room with other successful rainmakers, Let’s get them involved. I’m doing free audits, so somebody can come and just be a fly on the wall or engage as much as you like with my Rainmakers and see how it feels, sort of, you know, put on the suit and see, you know, roll around a little bit in it and see what it feels like.
[00:33:51] Steve Fretzin: But, uh, just email me at steve at Fretzin. com for that. Uh, Mike, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to network with you, they loved what you said today, which I’m sure they did, what are the best ways for them to reach you? This
[00:34:01] Michael Educate: way to reach me is probably on LinkedIn. As I like to tell people, people know me in a last name basis.
[00:34:07] Michael Educate: When you’ve got a last name, like educate, you might as well use it. So you can find me, Michael educate on LinkedIn, or, uh, I’m also at Barrick for Rosano in Chicago and our websites, bfdm. com. I should pop up right away. There aren’t many educates in the practice.
[00:34:20] Steve Fretzin: My teacher wife loved you before and she hasn’t met you yet, but if she does, you’re already headed a game with the last name educate.
[00:34:26] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, she’s a big fan from afar. You know what? Yeah. Sounds like a great person. Let’s get her on. Oh, yeah. Let’s do it. Well, you’re hopefully coming out to the birds at some point. Don’t twist my arm. Yeah. We’ll see. All right. Thanks, Mike. I appreciate it. And thank you, everybody, for spending some time on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast.
[00:34:43] Steve Fretzin: We are here rockin and rollin every single week, twice a week, for you, the lawyer, to live your best lawyer’s life. Be that lawyer, everybody, competent, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well, and we will talk again soon.
[00:34:58] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important legal Check out today’s show notes.