A high school dropout who became a law firm founder explains why every success story has someone else’s fingerprints on it — and why the relationships lawyers neglect are the ones already sitting in their contact list. It’s a conversation about building a book of business by treating connection as a way of life, not a marketing tactic.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Neal Goldstein discuss:
- The myth of the self-made professional
- Dropping out and the mentor who changed the trajectory
- Raising kids who’ve faced adversity
- The “law school industrial complex” and the comfort of the billable hour
- Mining past clients and referral partners as low-hanging fruit
- Which relationships earn your time as you get older
- AI and digital convenience vs. genuine human connection
- Choosing your lane instead of the title you thought you wanted
Key Takeaways:
- Nobody’s career is self-built — every ascent has someone in it who bent down and helped pick up the boots.
- Comfort is the quiet risk. Lawyers who’ve been fed work for a decade are the ones with nothing to fall back on when the market turns.
- The cheapest business development in existence is a cup of coffee with someone who already likes you. You can have a four-star conversation in a one-star restaurant.
- Most firms are sitting on hundreds of happy former clients they’ve never called again — that’s revenue, not nostalgia.
- Technology hasn’t made real relationships less important; by making convenience so easy, it has made genuine connection rarer and therefore worth more.
- Your lane won’t be obvious on day one. You’ll recognize it by where your results come from, not by which title looks best on the door.
“I don’t think technology makes genuine relationships less important. I just think it makes them more valuable.” — Neal Goldstein
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About Neal Goldstein: Neal A. Goldstein is a partner at Goldstein and Bashner, author, speaker, and host of That One Lawyer Podcast. With nearly four decades of personal injury trial experience, he specializes in high-stakes injury advocacy while teaching attorneys and business leaders how to build authentic, relationship-driven growth.
Connect with Neal Goldstein:
Website: https://www.eglaw.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nealagoldsteinlaw/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:01]
Before we jump in today’s show, if you’ve been listening to the podcast or reading any of my books, the Be That Lawyer community is clearly the next step for your growth and development as a rainmaker. Learn proven strategies, connect with ambitious lawyers just like you, and put new ideas into action. Check it out at bethatlawyer.com/community. Build your book, own your future, and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:30]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here is your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:52]
Hey, everybody. Steve Fretzin, and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. If you are hearing us for the first time, you’ve been hiding under a rock, and I’m not sure why. This is the place to go for business development, branding, time management, life, lifestyle, being your best lawyer self. This is the place to be. There’s only one other place you might want to go, and that’s to be that one lawyer, and that’s Neal’s podcast. I don’t know who’s copying who, but either way, I love it. I’m on board. Welcome, Neal. How are you, buddy?
Neal Goldstein [01:22]
Hey, what a pleasure to be here. And, yeah, whether it’s That One Lawyer, Be That Lawyer, we’re both trying to find, help other lawyers do what what they need to do, right?
Steve Fretzin [01:32]
That’s it. That’s all we care about, right? Is is is making this industry better than it was before we got here. And we’re going to have some fun today. Is that a fact?
Neal Goldstein [01:40]
That is a fact, guaranteed.
Steve Fretzin [01:42]
There are some things that are just like maybe opinions. That’s a fact that we’re going to have some good times today and and help you guys out, right? We’re going to help you lawyers figure out some stuff that that they never taught you in law school, right? The soft skills that help you to be successful. Be that one lawyer. Be that lawyer. So let’s start off, Neal, with with our our quote of the show, and this is Thurgood Marshall, and here we go. He’s the guy who started that that chain, Marshalls. Is that right?
Neal Goldstein [02:06]
Yeah, that’s that’s correct.
Steve Fretzin [02:07]
The dis- The discount store? Thank you, Thurgood, for that.
Neal Goldstein [02:10]
Yeah, the discount store.
Steve Fretzin [02:10]
All right, just checking. Here we go. None of us got to where we are solely by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got here because somebody bent down and helped us pick up our boots. All right, that’s a fantastic quote. Welcome, and and tell us why you love that quote.
Neal Goldstein [02:24]
You know, I didn’t know about that quote until a couple of years ago, and then when I saw it, like other quotes, it really it resonated with me. And actually, I didn’t give you the the full quote. The full quote is, None of us got where we are solely by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got here because somebody—a parent, a teacher, an Ivy League crony, or a few nuns—bent down and helped us pick up our boots. Why do I like that quote? Because quite honestly, when I talk about relationships and other people and and celebrating other people, often I get this: Well, you know, I did this on my own. I, you know, I I don’t know what you’re what you’re talking about. I This was all about me. Self-made self-made person. Self- self-made person, exactly. Or somebody might say, Yeah, well, first you first you got to do it yourself. Well, there’s nuances, I get it. Some people work ver- Everybody has to work hard by themselves, but, you know, we’re not meant in this world to be alone. And somewhere along the line, somebody had to be there to either, you know, help you in some way, and the quote resonates because the myth that any of us any of us succeeds entirely on our own is ridiculous. What- Whatever I’ve accomplished Whatever I’ve accomplished, there were people who believed in me, opened up doors, you know, supported me in some way without my fully appreciating it until later on. So, that’s why I love that quote so much. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [03:56]
I’m I’m not in coaching without Keith. Keith was my coach who taught me how to how to sell in a in a smarter way, and eventually I said, Hey man, I’ve learned so much from you. I’ve never made more money. How do I do what you do? And he, you know, he charged me a lot of money, but he still, that’s okay. It was it was a money well spent, right? It’s my education in in learning how to be a coach and and help people. So, we all we all should be pointing either to people, to lessons, to combination that that really defined who we become, so I love that.
Neal Goldstein [04:27]
You know, let me just say one other thing. You know, in my office, and this is somewhat related, in my office, many of the many of the clients when the when when they leave the office, when I say when they mean when the when the case is over, they start crying. They’re not crying because of me. They’re crying because of the other people that they built this connection with in the firm, whether it’s the legal assistant or it’s one of the clerks that they were working with. You know, Scott Galloway said at one point, Greatness is in the agency of others. Now, I don’t know if it came from him or not, but I’ll give him the credit, but that’s the truth. I mean, other people make us who we are, and if you don’t if you don’t acknowledge that, then I’m not sure you’re going to be as nearly as successful as you should be.
Steve Fretzin [05:14]
You know, and as a coach working with clients who become very successful, I I’m humbled when they when they give me credit, and I always put it back on them and say, Look, you know, A, this was a team team effort, and B, you know, you’re on the field. You’re the one who sweat and and bled and did all the things that you needed to do. You know, I just I just, you know, I just helped you along a little bit because it it takes it takes a village. It takes a team. So, I love that, Neal.
Neal Goldstein [05:39]
100%. And quite honestly, it comes full circle because now that I’ve had, you know, all of these hands in my ascent upwards, I now feel like I have to give back, and so I try to help others who are down and need some help. Yeah. Of course you’ve got to have the discipline within you, of course. But some people need help more than others, and and it’s good to be there for them.
Steve Fretzin [06:04]
Yeah, I love it. Well, everybody, you’re in for a treat. As I mentioned today, Neal Goldstein is the partner, co-founder at Goldstein and Bashner, also an author and the host of That One Lawyer, if you didn’t hear about it. And you were so kind to have me on the on your podcast, and which set up this wonderful pod swap. And so, you know, like you’re my new best friend. So like, you know, I’ve mentioned you five times in the last, you know, three weeks, so.
Neal Goldstein [06:26]
That’s great. That’s wonderful. I appreciate that.
Steve Fretzin [06:27]
Yeah. But give give everybody a little Reader’s Digest on how you came to be.
Neal Goldstein [06:31]
Sure. So, I come from dysfunctional family, probably like other people. My mother had multiple sclerosis. She was in a wheelchair a good part of my life. My father walked away, absconded, if you will, at age 12, and somewhere around I think it was 15 or 16, whenever the the the school system allowed me to, I dropped out of high school. And I remember going to my mother, who was sitting in a wheelchair, handed her the form, asked her to sign it, and unbelievably, she did sign it. Most people would say, What was she doing?, but she was going through her own hell at that point, and I guess she just hoped that somebody up there would follow me.
Speaker 2 [07:06]
And
Neal Goldstein [07:06]
and while while wandering around the next 2 years, not doing anything criminal, but certainly not doing anything positive, I came across a community center where I went to kindergarten, and I walked in there just because I had nothing else to do. And when I was in there, somebody tapped me on the shoulder. Okay, this goes to our quote. Somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey, what are you doing here? And I really had no real excuse for it. I just said I used to go to kindergarten, and he said, Well, gee, aren’t you supposed to be in school? And even though I really didn’t have to be in school, I said I’m not a school guy, and he looked at me and he just smiled, and he says, That’s okay. And he was a social worker, and we developed a relationship for the next several years, and that relationship really really was the first pivot towards something better in life, something real, something that I could look to, not to figure out how am I going to have a successful day, but a successful year. And lo and behold, I went back to school, to community college, then 4-year college, then school at night, became a lawyer, and and and fortunately, I’ve had great people around me, so I’ve been moderately successful in my life.
Steve Fretzin [08:17]
Yeah, it’s incredible. It’s incredible. And you know, you and I, as we we found out on on your podcast, have so much in common, and you know, I was also a terrible student and didn’t really care for school, and I’ve spoken about you know having meetings with the all of my teachers in junior high, the principal, the vice principal, and both my parents multiple times. So if you’re listening to this and you’re a parent, you could sort of imagine being in that room. It was not not great, and
Neal Goldstein [08:42]
Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [08:43]
And then, you know, again, Yeah. Do
Neal Goldstein [08:45]
Do you ever think about that like as a parent I, you know, I know you have a great relationship with your kid, and do you ever think about what it was like to be your parent and, you know, have your kid not do well in school or having difficulties and all that? Honestly,
Steve Fretzin [09:01]
I never really put it into their perspective. I always had my own selfish perspective of of how unfair it was, and they took away my my my ski trip that I was planning with all my friends, and, you know, it was always about how it impacted me, and I never really thought from there. Now, Yes. Yes. you you get the pleasure of those conversations. When my kid was going through high school, he missed in his senior listen to this, this is private stuff, I’m sure, but in his senior year, his second semester senior year, he missed 53 classes. 53. Now, he’s gotten to college, everything’s lined up for him, his whole future is lined up. He misses 53 classes, so, Right. Right. Wow. you know, fortunately, we’re in a high school where they they don’t take your grades away, they just make you go to detention and deal with it. But, he’s like, Oh, that’s where I do my homework. I was like, Oh, great, so that’s glad. So, I do have the perspective of my experiences, but not when I’m sitting there stewing about this awful meeting that I was like, Geez, I wonder how Larry and Muriel back in the day would You know, how they’re feeling in this moment. I just was fuming at them. I was fuming at them. I
Neal Goldstein [10:06]
I know that, you know, later on in life, when my kids had, you know, a few issues or whatever, and I thought to myself, What did my mother think? How much did I break this woman when I came to her with and said, I’m dropping out of high school? And when I think about it, I you know, it just it it tears me apart that I could have done something like that. But,
Speaker 2 [10:27]
you
Neal Goldstein [10:28]
know, that that’s life. That’s the journey we’re on. But yeah, but
Steve Fretzin [10:30]
here’s the here’s the spin, and here’s what’s going. I know we’re we’re we’re not getting to our main topics, but I could because I’m enjoying this No, cuz I’m enjoying this so much. They’re, I’m I’m not going to say all the kids today are entitled because that’s that’s wrong. That’s not the that’s not the case. And I know my son is, you know, full-time student, working part-time, yeah, making his own way, paying for his own this and thAT&The other, like, okay. But there’s there’s a lot of people who who are too easy on their kids or that are that don’t make them have that meeting with the with the teachers or do the hard things by saying no or or or you’re not going on that ski trip or whatever. And then they end up with kids that have never dealt with adversity. And then they have to go to college or they have to go to work or they have to figure out, and they’ve never that That’s that’s just a disaster waiting to happen.
Neal Goldstein [11:14]
Yep, I agree. I agree. I And I see it,
Steve Fretzin [11:15]
I see it happening around me with a lot of a lot of the younger people today, and it’s not just their fault. I mean, it’s a lot of the parents
Neal Goldstein [11:22]
being
Steve Fretzin [11:22]
being being way too soft and not realizing every every opportunity to say no, every opportunity to to challenge a child is is character building.
Neal Goldstein [11:32]
Yeah, you have to every once in a while let your kid fall and not pick them up.
Steve Fretzin [11:36]
Yeah. And the transition to lawyers, by the way, is that there are many lawyers who, not entitled, but they have become very comfortable, let’s say, with the billable hour. They’re comfortable with the fact that they’re being fed work. It’s maybe the life that they had hoped they were going to get where they don’t have to do business development, or they don’t have to develop relationships, or they don’t have to go out and go beyond, you know, the scope of being a great lawyer. And I think that’s that that’s a that’s not, look, I’m not going to say for everybody it’s the same path, but I think you and I both would agree that’s that’s kind of a bad a bad miss a bad idea or misstep.
Neal Goldstein [12:11]
I think law school, in particular, and I I I refer to it as the law school industrial complex, has done a number on lawyers. Now, again, I agree with you, not all lawyers, so I don’t want anybody coming back and screaming to and saying, Oh, well, I’m not like that. I’m– Okay, I know, I know there’s people that that are the exceptions. I’m telling you what I think I’ve seen pervasively, generally, I mean, it’s people that walk out of school think they’re going to make a lot of money, think they’re, you know, they’re they’re all that, you know, and and then all of a sudden, boom, they hit a wall. Something happens and they realize, oh, I didn’t know this, I didn’t know that. Okay, well, now you’re going to learn, and it may be harder.
Steve Fretzin [12:56]
Yeah, they’re not bulletproof, you know, and you know, 2008 was what got me into legal, because that’s when that that recession tore tore a bunch of of those walls down that protected lawyers from you know, having to do business development or marketing or any of that stuff. And I I’m always fearful that it’s going to happen again. So COVID hit, I don’t know that that that, you know, that that was not the same as 2008, and then we got this whole AI thing coming up, and is that going to change? We don’t know. We don’t know. But ultimately, you know, I’m very interested in lawyers looking at building and developing relation– If nothing else, if you forget business development, take that those words out, should you be developing relationships that are beneficial to you from a personal standpoint, social standpoint, from a professional standpoint? Who could argue that?
Neal Goldstein [13:44]
I agree with you. I think, because I think the both of us have the philosophy that building relationships is a way of life. It’s a mindset. It has nothing to do in reality with being a lawyer, although it does. You’ve got to build relationships on the weekends. You’ve got to build relations at ho- at home or else the whole thing is going to collapse. It’s not separate lives as much as some people want to make it. It’s one life, one effing life, and and are you prepared to build relationships during your life? That’s all.
Steve Fretzin [14:19]
Yeah. And again, being satisfied now doesn’t mean being satisfied in a year, 5 years, or 10 years, and So, so let me ask you this. There’s a lawyer listening right now, and they’re billing the hours, and they’re doing the job, and they got a dozen a half dozen bosses and a a dozen if you include the clients that aren’t theirs, and they’re looking to start getting going with relationships, getting going with business development. They start to see that, Hey, maybe I need to start dipping my toe in that water. How do you How do you recommend they get going?
Neal Goldstein [14:48]
I I think the easiest thing to do is to pull out your planner, your calendar, or your Google Calendar, what- whatever it is that you’re working on, and see how much white space you have on there. And when you see thing that has white space, you say, Okay, I’m going to do something that I don’t see often. I’m going to do an IRL, right? A real-life in- event, isn’t that what it’s called? IRL, in-real-life event, yes. IRL. And you’re going to go and get a cup of coffee with somebody, a client. Not costing you much, is it? Well, maybe today $20 with two cups of coffee, but you’re you’re going to go out and have have coffee. Maybe for lunch, you’ll meet a friend who you think might- you you may want to reconnect with, or somebody you want to build stronger ties, but maybe you’ll meet them for a slice of pizza. I I know that sounds crazy, but guess what? You can have a four-star conversation in a one-star restaurant. That’s That’s what you could do easily, no problem! If you don’t do that, then you’re the problem. You’re not doing what you should be doing. Open open the calendar, am I right?
Steve Fretzin [15:52]
Yeah, open the I think here’s another thought, just to add to your to your to your point, like, get get Sit down for 30 minutes on a Saturday, and just go through your LinkedIn, or go through your go through your contact list, and say, Look, these are my friends that are CEOs of companies, these are my friends that are GCs of companies, these are people that I have great relationships, but maybe I’ve let it lapse, right? Like, I just haven’t reached out to them in a while. And you don’t have to get real specific about why you’re reaching out, you could just say, Look, it’s been way too long, I feel terrible about it, it’s on me, I’d love to grab a coffee with you, or a lunch with you, in the next couple weeks. Here’s four or five dates that work for me, let me know, and let’s catch up. And you might get business, you might not get business, you might catch up with a friend, you end up you going on a trip together, you don’t know, but you have to do it.
Neal Goldstein [16:40]
And, yes, often these are long-term strategies. That’s the truth, but it begins today. It begins today, and those long-term strategies that Steve just talked about or or that I mentioned are the ones that are going to be the most successful. The most When you speak to lawyers, what are the most successful clients they have? The ones that have been referred to by other people, or the ones that you previously had, so that’s essential, building those relationships and maintaining them.
Steve Fretzin [17:08]
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Neal Goldstein [18:38]
So, let me ask you this. As we get older, we get more mature in our careers. I mean, how do you sort of determine which relationships deserve more time, less time? I mean, I’m finding as I get older, I have less close friends. I’ve got like my my crew of like five then I’ve got a thousand acquaintances, but I have like my core of like five instead having like 20 good friends. I don’t know if that’s normal, but that’s sort of what’s happened to me. So, I’m 63. Feels like yesterday I was 23. That’s the truth, and I still build relationships. But yes, I would be a fool to say it hasn’t changed. People’s lives change. Unfortunately, some people pass away, and I always ask myself, you know, look, I could use the title of my book, Who’s in the Waiting Room. And that’s what I think we have to do as we pivot and as we get older: Who’s in the waiting room for you, and whose waiting room are you willingly ready to sit in? Mmm. That’s what makes the synergy of a good relationship. And yes, of course, as we get older, our relationships are those near and dear to us. You know, I don’t I don’t want to be dark, but you know, when you’re in your when you are in your last days, who do you want to see? Do you want to see the accountant, you the the the gardener? No, you want to see family, friends, those people that you love. And so those are the people that you want to stay connected with, and doesn’t always mean family. It could mean other people, too, that have been very special in your life. So yeah, as we get older, we do look at things a little bit differently.
Steve Fretzin [20:18]
I also think there’s a there’s a a catch with like old friends, like there are there are some old friends that their personalities and and the way that they interact with me and just generally, they’re just not my people anymore. Doesn’t mean we can’t be friends. It doesn’t mean we can’t see each other a couple times a year, but they’re not in my waiting room, and I don’t know that I necessarily need them there. You know, just because we knew each other when we were 15 years old kicking around in high school doesn’t mean that, you know, we have to stay together at 56, right? That we have to, you know, be there. So, then on the other side, I had one of my best friends from high school, we kind of had like a 10-year hiatus where we just really didn’t talk at all, and he was going through a lot, and and I just gave him some space. And man, when he comes into town, it’s like nothing’s changed, and we’re right back working at McDonald’s at you know 14 years old, we could hardly see over the counter, and you know it was like the good old days and all that, so. You know, it’s just it’s just interesting it’s just interesting how relationships change. You just can’t, you don’t necessarily need to hold on to everything all the time.
Neal Goldstein [21:15]
You know, relationships relationships are like bridges, right? They’re supposed to sway. And so and sometimes that happens. You have people that come into your life for a few years, and they’re wonderful, and it was great having them, and they did and they opened your eyes to, you know, maybe a few things, and then we move on. Not every relationship is going to be with you from beginning to end. That’s okay.
Steve Fretzin [21:36]
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. So, you know, just, you know, kind of going back to to relationships as it relates to business, you know, obviously generating business for as a lawyer has become more and more important. I mean, when I got into this, you know, 18 years ago, you know, there were a few that were like talked talked about, and now it’s it’s it’s become more of a More lawyers realize like freedom, independence, control comes from having your own business. How do you take relationships and then develop them into direct business, referral business, things that that allow you to, you know, stay stay, you know, profitable year after year, and and also stay close with your friends?
Neal Goldstein [22:16]
Yeah, I see it as a dance, and once a client, a colleague, a friend shows an interest in dancing with me, in this case, in in building some kind of relationship, whether it’s a lawyer-client relationship, a colleague referral relationship, and we really sync That’s important, too, you got to have stuff in common. then I continue that not only throughout whether it’s the the case that somebody is referring to me, or, let’s say, it’s a client another person, I continue that relationship even after that event, if you want to put quotes around it, is over. So if the case got settled, or the the referring attorney got their check, that’s not the end. That’s just the beginning. And that’s where many lawyers miss it. They forget that, oh, I I If I go back in my Rolodex, if everybody knows what a Rolodex is, it’s Or am I dating myself here? I go back into my contact app and see all the clients that I’ve helped, but I’ve never talked to since the relationship ended, look how much business you’re losing.
Narrator [23:28]
And
Neal Goldstein [23:28]
I think I think it’s something that’s overlooked by many, many lawyers, and you would be wise to to leverage in on your past clients.
Steve Fretzin [23:39]
Yeah, I find that you know happy clients, past and existing, that’s the lowest-hanging fruit, right? So, when I’m talking to a client, What’s our plan for business development this year? The first place we go is, you know, how many clients do you have past existing? You know, can you write can you write them down? A, B, C, A’s, B’s, C’s. What are they? How are they rated? Let’s talk about referral partners. Where are they? That’s also top of the list. So, it’s not about trying to do everything all at once with a scattershot. It’s about looking at where where the low-hanging fruit is. And most lawyers either know it’s there, but don’t do anything with it, or or they they don’t even realize like what’s in front of them until someone from the outside like points it out. I had a I had a quick story. I have a guy years ago, John, who he was out networking. Me, he loved people, so right? So like you and me love people. Right, right. He was also divorced and single, so he was ready to mingle, if you know what I mean. But so it had it had two points, like maybe I’ll maybe I’ll meet a girl, but also I’m making some business. And I said to him, I go, Look man, I think from my perspective as your coach, like the party’s over, because you have, you know, 400 to 500 clients that think you’re amazing, and you’re not even talking to them other than if they need something, they know where I am. Like that’s This is so we’re going to you know, 80/20 rule that sucker, right? 20% stay out and mingle, 80% is is the low-hanging fruit. And boy
Steve Fretzin [24:58]
man, things took off like a rocket, because he was just he was out meeting strangers and hoping things would, you know, materialize when everything he ever needed was right in front of him.
Neal Goldstein [25:07]
Sure, sure. No, that may that makes a lot of sense, and, yeah, something that a lot of people forget about.
Steve Fretzin [25:14]
Well, here’s the other thing I want to maybe not wrap up with, but but we’re we’re kind of getting there, is AI, technology, Zoom, you know, my whole world revolves Not, you know, probably 90/10 is 90% like this. I’m talking to you on a Zoom, and I honestly think that’s pretty good. I mean, as it is, it’s better than a call. It’s not as good as a coffee, but ultimately, I I feel like it’s been very successful for me because I can’t be everywhere all at once, anyway. But when you start thinking about AI and robots and talking to computers and and all this stuff, how do you feel about that and and and why that’s gonna Does that change how we should be building relationships or or embracing them?
Neal Goldstein [25:55]
Well, first of all, you and I, at some point, are going to meet in person, because I know because I know that I know your philosophy and my philosophy are going to make that happen. But, look, let’s start out with with the obvious. AI and digital is here to stay, and AI and digital makes communication very convenient. There’s no question about it. I’ll be the first to say it, but don’t mistake in the word convenience with communication. I’m not sure that AI or digital helps you have deep relationships with other people. In fact, I’m sure it doesn’t. And so, yes, is a good is it is it a good way to introduce you to other people? 100%. Is it a good way to to bond with them? No. That that’s not going to happen. You know, now we have everything from AI-generated messages, I guess social media, obviously, emails, texts, and everything. Those to Those Those tools are useful, but they don’t really allow you to fully experience a person. Take a lawyer, for instance. And I tell my clients this all the time. I say, You want to know how to find a good lawyer? Go to them in person. Look at them. Are they listening to you? Are they looking you in the eyes, which is key? Are they allowing you to talk? Do they give you room to speak, or is it them that that that’s it that has the center stage? You have to be the center stage. Too many Too often, many lawyers come to the the office with, and in their mind, they’re saying, Okay, well, I’m going to be talking here. No, you have to let the client talk. And so that only happens in person, does not happen digitally. It just doesn’t. So I don’t think technology makes genuine relationships less important. I just think it makes them more valuable.
Steve Fretzin [27:55]
Yeah. Well, and I think like I I hate talking to you know like I’m on AT&T, and I’m getting run through the mill with this robot. And I know AI is going to help fix that a little bit, but we’ve had AI do that, where you know if it hears certain things and moves you forward, of course it never does, and you always just screaming customer service, customer service. I hear my wife screaming it from downstairs. I’m screaming it from. We see each other like five minutes later, and we give each other look like, “Yeah, you just got run through that fricking mill. By the way, that sounds very
Neal Goldstein [28:25]
familiar.
Steve Fretzin [28:25]
We’ve all been there, so human connection is so important. I think moving forward into the future, it’s going to be even more important for us to show people the human side of the lawyer, the human side of the experience of the practice of law, as opposed to the you know maybe what’s produced from AI is is it relates to a work product or research or whatever. Real quick, Gary Vaynerchuk, I saw he had a post. I think it was he had a tombstone, and on the tomb it said social media, you know, 2016 to 2026, and it’s now interest media, and so I think this is another area where you know it’s not about connecting and and being social with friends and family and seeing like whose birthday is so much as it is about the algorithm pushing you to what it believes you want to buy or using you as the product.
Neal Goldstein [29:18]
100% I agree. I’ve seen that too, and read that. And I think, I think, as I said when I started this this part of the conversation, it’s not going away. It’s going to build and build and build. The question is, are you going to take the time to do the other things which I consider to be more valuable? Not that you should throw away AI; it has its purposes. But come on, get out there and meet people. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [29:47]
right on, right on. Well, let’s wrap up with our favorite last question of the show. What’s Neal’s big mistake?
Neal Goldstein [29:54]
So, I think I think for me it was it was choosing the wrong lane. What do I mean by that? So when I started out as a lawyer, I wanted to try cases, and my boss at that time gave me like really crappy cases to try, I don’t think that was the reason that I ultimately did not want to be a trial lawyer. I kind of enjoyed it for a while, but then I realized trial lawyering requires tremendous amount of discipline, pressure, and the ability to think quickly on your feet. Now, I think I could have been a good trial lawyer. I think I I know how to speak well and get my ideas across to other people, but I’m not sure I wanted to have my time taking up taken up be doing that, and so that went to the side. And then I thought, okay, I built a firm in in in we were in New York City, and I had you know a number of people working for us, and I thought, okay, I’m I’m got my corner office, I’m I’m okay now, but I didn’t like running an office. I didn’t. I hated it. I hated the finance. I hated everything, and and and I was fighting that because I thought that was such a good position to have. And then and then I realized the success that I’ve had came from the fact that I connect with other people very well, and that was my strength. And I said, just lean into it, man. Don’t worry about whether you’re trying cases or whether you’re the CEO of the office. You’re always going to be the owner of the office. But maybe my lane, my lane, is the lane that connects with other human beings to bring the business in in a meaningful way. And so, you have to find your lane. It’s not always easy. It’s not there on day one, but you’ll know it when when it happens. You’ll see it. You’ll see by your success rates. It’s just it’s something I think that we all go through to some extent.
Steve Fretzin [31:54]
Yeah, I mean we all find our path, and it’s supposed to be hard, right? It’s supposed to be something that that you know tries our our insides and out. So, I totally get that, man. Thank you so much. This has been great. Let me take a moment, thank our incredible sponsors. Of course, PIMCon coming up with my friend Chris Dreyer, Rankings.io. Probably the number Do you ever go to PIMCon?
Neal Goldstein [32:14]
I think I might have gone once many years ago, Steve. Oh
Steve Fretzin [32:17]
god, it’s so good. Yeah, he’s doing it at The Venetian. He’s got top talent coming there as their keynote. Last year they had Nikki Glaser. She rocked the house. She spent 10 minutes just beating up on personal injury lawyers. It was absolutely uncomfortable and funny. Okay. Yeah, so there’s that. Of course, Lex Reception. Check that out everybody, and of course Lawyer.com. And if you haven’t heard of the Be That Lawyer community, go to fretzin.com or be that lawyer.com/community to check that out, and if you DM me, I’m happy to give you a demo everybody. It’s you know it’s it’s kind of a visual thing, and so if you’re just like, Oh, Be That Lawyer community. I keep hearing about it, but I don’t know what it is. Like let me walk you through it. Let me show you what’s inside. Show you that you know what what everyone’s doing. It’s a good way to get to learn that. So, Neal, people want to get in touch with you, they want to check out your podcast, what are what are your digits?
Neal Goldstein [33:03]
Podcast, That One Lawyer Podcast on YouTube. Just write it out, and you’ll you’ll find it. Or you can find me on LinkedIn, right? Neal A. Goldstein. And if you happen to be on Instagram, it’s @nealagoldstein.
Steve Fretzin [33:17]
Yeah. I’m going to come and see you. I’m going to be out there for the New York City
Neal Goldstein [33:20]
Right. No.
Steve Fretzin [33:21]
November
Neal Goldstein [33:22]
4th?
Steve Fretzin [33:22]
Yeah, the 4th Was it November
Neal Goldstein [33:23]
4th?
Steve Fretzin [33:24]
Yeah. I
Neal Goldstein [33:24]
think you said that. Yeah, I You told me that last time, and I didn’t forget about it. Okay. So, yes, let’s let’s definitely do it.
Steve Fretzin [33:30]
All right. I’ll put you I’ll put it together. Yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna visit with all my clients out in New York. I’m gonna you know see some of my key relationships out there, and and I’m doing the doing the opening for that symposium on the on the morning of the 5th for New York State Bar, so yeah. Yeah, it’s good times, good times. That’s great. That’s great. All right. Well, listen, thank you, Neal. A pleasure. Thank you.
Neal Goldstein [33:47]
Loved it. Loved it. Loved it.
Steve Fretzin [33:49]
Yeah, such a good time. I told everybody we’d have a good time. Now if you had a good time, it doesn’t matter. We had a good time, so, you know, go jump go jump in a lake. But listen, we’re we’re all about helping you guys to be that lawyer: confident, organized, skilled rainmaker. Build that book, own that future, and be that lawyer everybody. Thanks so much. Take care. Be safe and well. Talk again soon. Yes. Absolutely.
Narrator [34:12]
listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.