In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Nick Augustine discuss:
- Authenticity in legal careers and professional identity
- Branding, marketing, and business development in law
- Career reinvention through personal values and experience
- The connection between human storytelling and client trust
Key Takeaways:
- Lawyers should humanize their brand by sharing personal interests (e.g., hobbies, family life) on social media to create relatability and trust with clients.
- Many attorneys fail at marketing because they attempt to outsource it without contributing their personality or narrative, which is what really attracts referrals.
- To identify your authentic brand, listen closely to client compliments and peer feedback—these often reveal your true differentiators.
- Attorneys overly dependent on digital marketing (like Google ads) should step back and re-engage in grassroots relationship-building to avoid a fragile business model.
“Your brand is how people know you, who are the types of people who call you, who are the types of law firms who give referrals to you, who you are, differentiated among the others in the community.” — Nick Augustine
Unlock the secrets of the industry’s top rainmakers with Be That Lawyer: 101 Top Rainmakers’ Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice. Grab your ultimate guide to building a thriving law firm now on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F78HXJHT
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Episode References:
The Joe Rogan Experience: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-joe-rogan-experience/id360084272
About Nick Augustine: Nick Augustine is a lawyer who doesn’t practice law and instead launched a digital marketing agency in 2005 to create the best content for lawyers and business professionals.
Connect with Nick Augustine:
Website: https://lonestarcontentmarketing.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickaugustinetx/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/2884978/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JohnNicholasAugustineJD
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:04]
Hey, be that lawyer fans. Steve Fretzin, here, I’m so happy that you’re here to listen to the show before we get to want to just mention the be that lawyer book has been a best seller on Amazon for the last number of weeks, and we got a lot of great five star reviews and a number of kind words from our co authors. Here’s one from my friend and client, Jeremy Schneider. Steve works with the best of the best, and this new book shows it. It’s a must read for any attorney who wants to peek inside the business development process from the country’s best rainmakers. Thank you, Jeremy. Check it out. Everybody. Grab a copy on Amazon and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:45]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [01:07]
Hey everybody, welcome. It’s Steve Fretzin, and this is the be that lawyer podcast, as the announcer just mentioned. We are here for your listening and viewing pleasure. If you go to YouTube twice a week, every week to bring you important information that’s going to help you be that lawyer confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. So you guys know me. I’m always hustling to find great guests. I’ve got one here today. And Nick, how you doing, Nick?
Nick Augustine [01:28]
I’m well, how are you?
Steve Fretzin [01:29]
Good man, you ready to rock and roll?
Nick Augustine [01:31]
I am.
Steve Fretzin [01:32]
All right, don’t let us down. We got all everything’s riding on this. No pressure.
Nick Augustine [01:36]
I love being on this side. The interview situation. I’m usually on your side.
Steve Fretzin [01:40]
I like doing both as well. I find a it just changes things up a little bit. But it’s, I love it. It’s wonderful. Let’s talk about Ferris Bueller and our quote of the show. You know, obviously, grew up with Ferris Bueller as a kid of the 80s in Chicago with, you know, the Chicago Bulls and Ferris Bueller and all the different movies that were produced in Chicago. But here’s the quote, Life moves pretty quick. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Welcome to the show and tell us about why that quote is so wonderful.
Nick Augustine [02:08]
All right, so being 49 years old, I’m at that point where, and we’re talking about law today, so we’ll kind of stick to that a little bit. I remember when I first started on my own in an alternative to traditional legal practice, and I remember talking to someone and thinking, wouldn’t it be cool, like, by the time we’re all older guys and we’re in charge of things and the future’s here now, that happened, and for me, graduation from law school was 2002 that’s more than 20 years ago. It goes by so fast, and if you’re busy with everything, it’s like your life can just go boom, and you have to take a time to stop and reinvent. And really smart guy told me one time he allows himself the opportunity every five years to stop and look at everything he’s doing, and he can keep, discard or redo every aspect of his life. And I love that.
Steve Fretzin [02:57]
Yeah, I just published an article regarding what a very close friend and client of mine who passed away from a glioblastoma fought it like a warrior. And, you know, we just don’t know, right? We don’t know. I’ve been in a plane crash. You know, you can have cancer. You can get in a car crash because someone’s looking at their phone like we don’t know what this what’s going to, you know, come to us. So we need to live our lives, and we need to take a step back and appreciate what we have. We have to appreciate how far we’ve come. And, you know, even going back to, like, high school, I was pretty much called lazy and stupid and all those things, because I didn’t get good grades and I just didn’t, you know, I was bored with school. But that’s not They didn’t say you’re bored with school. They said you’re stupid and lazy. And no one would have thought that I would have written five books, or no one would have thought that I would have amounted to mine. Amounted to much. And so, you know, we have to look at how far we’ve come, whether you’re a lawyer, whether you’re someone that’s, you know, run now, running a business or law firm, whatever it might be.
Nick Augustine [03:51]
Yeah, you know, for me, I never really wanted to be a lawyer. It was expected that I go to some sort of graduate program. The family paid for it, you know, you go do this. I was one of them. I was born into one of those families where you shut up and do what you’re supposed to do. And when I declared that I didn’t want to practice, and I just I refused every step of the way, and when I shifted into law firm, marketing and public relations, I thought, how can I help people who didn’t grow up with a lot of wisdom that I had, and how can I help people create something out of this that they love? And I remember one of my friends at John Marshall, when we were in second year, and he said our loans, I just took out more loans. He says, we’re so far into this we have to go all the way and become practicing attorneys. And I just it was definitely one of those things that, like, makes you stop, and it’s like the thought of at 20 some years old, that your entire life ahead of you is now bound and determined by this decision that you or someone else made. You know for whatever reason you know, and it’s people will talk about, you know, kids and like, they don’t know what they’re doing. We just don’t have the experience yet to. To make those hard decisions. And so what do we do with ourselves? And a lot of what I want to talk about today is authenticity. And so another lawyer here in Dallas said to me one time he said, I didn’t really choose family law. I got a job in it. I turned out to be really good at it, and I think it was something that I was chosen to do so that I can make others better at it, help them find a nuanced way to appreciate it. Because I’m sorry, but the burnout, why would anyone want to practice law? I mean, it’s an insane thing to do. Your clients are awful. The opposing counsel is awful, the judges are awful, and then you become a judge. Now all your friends are not your friends anymore, and at the end of the day, supposedly, you’ve stockpiled a bunch of money well, your paralegal has done well and bought themselves like nice things. And, you know, you often at the last bowl of mood.
Steve Fretzin [05:47]
And Nick, this got dark very quickly.
Nick Augustine [05:51]
You know. So there’s a mood, right? So that’s what I’m saving people from. I already save them from that.
Steve Fretzin [05:57]
Yeah. I mean, look, I think there are lawyers who can become great lawyers, and they can be, you know, working at a firm for years and never have a problem and have quality of life and make it work and all that, the majority, I think, are going to figure out, you know, you need to consider marketing, branding, business development. You need to consider, you know, owning an own business, or moving into legal tech, or whatever it is that you do that, you know, just being a billable hour attorney may not end up being something you can do for, you know, 30 years and live the life that you really want to live so.
Nick Augustine [06:31]
Right? It’s more than 30 years. I’ve already got 20 in, and I don’t think that I’ll be done in the next 10. You know.
Steve Fretzin [06:35]
Well, I was being generous. I think, hey everybody. Nick Augustine is the agency, owner of Lone Star content marketing. We’ve known each other for quite a while, and I’m just happy to have you on the show. I really would love to have you give just a little bit of background too, because I don’t think even though you’ve given some background about being a lawyer, there’s you’ve gone some weird directions.
Nick Augustine [06:56]
Sure. So, I mean, I don’t know what how to get there. I grew up in a very different possible, yeah, I grew up in a different family. We had a lot of privilege and things that a lot of other people didn’t have. And I come from many, many, many generations of people who did many, many great things. And with that, I was always kind of separated and segregated from the rest of the human society in the world. And it’s like, what are you going to do with yourself? You know, figure out what you’re going to do with your life, but impart wisdom on people and help improve the quality of your community and the people around you. Don’t just do something to get a paycheck and go buy a boat and sail away do something that matters. So it’s all about legacy and creating something out of nothing. And that’s what I did, because, again, I didn’t want I worked in really great law firms in DuPage County. I saw how Chicago everybody Yes, it is the south side, yes. And I also worked in the city. Got a lot of good experience at the Daily center. I just saw a lot of people that just weren’t happy, you know, far into their careers, and so it’s all about finding a way to be a better lawyer. And I think authenticity, what I want to talk about today is really the key to all that.
Steve Fretzin [08:08]
Yeah, so let’s before we get into the weeds on differentiation and authenticity and all that, let’s just do a quick you and I idea about, like, what separates the language, because I think a lot of times it’s just all grouped into marketing, like lawyers just say, Hey, we’re going on a marketing meeting. We’re doing marketing. You’ve got marketing, you’ve got branding, and you’ve got business development. How do you see those three as different things?
Nick Augustine [08:32]
Sure. Well, when advertising comes up a lot, and advertising is when you put money to it, marketing is telling people what you do. Branding is who you are. And branding, I believe, is why people hire the person they like. And when someone finds an attorney they like, they just get a visceral I like this person, and they’re more likely to do well with someone they just like a lot of people don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to marketing. As a profession, lawyers are terrible at all this, and a lot of that is the fault of bar associations that heavily regulated everything from the beginning of time here in Texas, for example, the bars told you how much you can charge to practice. Now, if you have Texas board specialization, TBLs, you can before it was you could charge you had to get that to charge more. But here’s the catch, to get that board specialization, you have to do just so many trials at just this dollar amount and all these different things. So the best lawyers who settled their cases aren’t good candidates for getting the Texas Board of Legal specials. There’s so much interesting stuff to unpack there.
Steve Fretzin [09:33]
Well, yeah. And also, I know, like, you know the in Chicago, you know, in Illinois, you know ARDC and the rules, and, I mean, it’s when I started in legal 2008, nine, I couldn’t get a CLE across the plate because it was considered legal marketing. That’s not the law, etc, etc, and I had to use some interesting language to try to get it through, you know, ethics and in different words to try to push it through. Now, I think marketing topics are top of the list of things that get approved on C. For CLE on a regular basis, not only in Illinois, but across the country.
Nick Augustine [10:04]
Well, and when things were getting started, when I was getting so well into law school at John Marshall 2002 we were still trying to figure out if you could email people without that being an ethical problem. But you’re right. People very concerned. There’s, I know, here in Texas, you have to print out your website and give that copy to the bar, you know, to get that approved. And that I was, I got a call from someone from the thick The Dallas Morning News, and she was doing a story on personal injury lawyers and all the companies out there, like lead generation companies, and she’s asking me all these questions about, what’s advertising, and do they have to well, isn’t social media, post advertising? And I explained, can you imagine if all of the lawyers who every time they did a social media post printed that off with a form and filed and sent it in, you would not have an administrative agency to function. They would come to a grinding halt, you know? So it’s a moving target. You know, things are always developing, and you’re right. CLE and all these things are now encouraged that were forbidden for a while. And the thing the problem we have is a lot of firms, we have people who are at the helm, who are still operating in the phone book era, and they don’t one of the biggest criticisms I have of attorneys is failure to understand how marketing and advertising and branding works. And the one thing that I would like everyone to do is take a month and stop all of your digital marketing. Stop it completely and pretend that you’re in 1982 How did you do business in 1982 and go do that for a month, and then after a month, go back and look and whatever, because people spend way so much time freaking out about Google. Stop worrying about Facebook. Stop worrying about Tiktok. Stop. Go meet people in your community and be known. Don’t just be I have so frustration with the people who just want to throw money at marketing, but they don’t want their personality or any of their you know, it’s the human capital. That’s what people tie into. That’s what they’re hiring.
Steve Fretzin [11:54]
Right. But I think that’s so when we get to, you know, defining topics like market or terms like marketing, branding and business development, I think you’re talking about business talking about business development. I see that as the one to one, one to many personal interaction, developing relationships in how we develop relationships, trust in business from that interaction, versus online throwing money at it, which I consider more marketing I like when they’re done together. However, I also don’t necessarily, I’m not pushing people to spend money on marketing. And if you’re in a certain industry where you have to do that, like personal bankruptcy to be found, and that’s a big part of your spend and part of your how you get leads in, if you just stop that cold, and you don’t have the relationships and the business development established, and you’re starting from nothing, you may see your business drop, you know, 90% so I don’t, you know, taking a month off of Google for some Yes, but for others, that could be highly detrimental.
Nick Augustine [12:49]
Right. Even if they just go and think about the idea, though, you know, just think about the concept for 30 minutes, you know.
Steve Fretzin [12:54]
All right. I like that. I like think about the idea, sure. But here’s the thing, if we’re relying on Google for all of our business. That’s like saying, Hey, I’m relying on China for all of my goods. And now, what’s happened, right? And we don’t know what’s you know, where things are. This is recorded, you know, month and a half before it’s aired. We the whole world can be changed about China by the time people are hearing this. You know, now they’re our best friends again. Who knows. So I think it’s what we may want to talk about. Is like balance, you know, the idea that you having a balance of marketing and business development and building your brand now that all being said, I think where you’re going with this is you want people to get out and meet people and start to be authentic, and start to get to build relationships, to build their personal brand right out there in the marketplace.
Nick Augustine [13:37]
Absolutely. And the thing that they will find is that who they are as a human is what really drives their brand. And I’m going to use the example of a guy new who liked a certain breed of dog. He wanted that on his picture with the website, with the dogs. He had the dogs in the office, ceramic versions of the dogs. And there’s a cult following for these dogs. People love them. And whether it’s a dog or a car or you’re a collector of this or that, whatever it is, it’s who you are outside of the courtroom and outside of your office, who you are as a person, because that’s what people get to know, like and trust, and that just makes visceral sense. So it’s like finding out. Like when you say you can determine, people try to determine their brand. Well, they’ll say, what’s your brand? Or say, Well, I’m going to use this font and these colors and these pictures and these would like, that’s they’re doing branding work, good. But your brand called the logo, right? I mean, your branding is how people know you, who are the types of people who call you, who are the types of law firms who give referrals to you, who you are differentiated among the others in the community. And so often everyone does monkey see, monkey do, and everyone’s copying everything else. And now it’s happening with people are copying others. Ai, work, oh, this was so well written. Well, that was AI, you know? And it’s, it becomes every. Just becomes a blurry mess, and no one stands out from the crowd anymore. And I live in Chicago is a very diverse place, and you’ve got a lot of different lawyers and a lot of different types of things. And here in Texas, it can be the kind of the opposite, like, I don’t know, Houston’s very diverse. A lot of people. Here in Dallas, it’s like everything is the same. There’s so much monkey see, monkey do and just copying, because people are afraid to stand out, because they’re afraid of being criticized, and that’s what I want people to do. I want them to stand out from everyone else, do something that gets noticed. Do you remember when Corey Fetterman, or fettman, her name is, I forget, around 2009 she had the building or she had a billboard in Chicago, right by Rush Street that was Life is short get a divorce, and she caught all sorts of attention, you know, and everyone, but you know what? Everyone knew who she was, and she went ahead and did something, and they’re like, yeah, she was a Playboy model. Go for it. Do it.
Steve Fretzin [15:55]
Yeah, with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretz.com and grab a time that works for you, and let’s make this your breakout year. So I think the dogs and the, you know, get a divorce. These are sometimes brands. These are also sometimes things that’ll just stand out. And I think attorneys are afraid of standing out in a way that is controversial most of them or something that isn’t going to put them in the best light. So let’s say I’m authentically being me, but I’m an asshole, or let’s say I’m pointing out something that no one cares about. So I think you have to give it some thought, and you have to maybe talk with your clients. I mean, how does someone then, yeah, let’s get into that. How does someone come up with that? I don’t want to say silver bullet, because it’s not but something that they can use to stand out, because that’s what I think is the problem is, like, they’re not really figuring it out. Yeah, how do you help someone do that?
Nick Augustine [17:26]
I just well, I tell them to be their selves number one, and I tell them to start sharing on social media, for example, the types of things that they go to, the types of things they’re interested in. Try to share things that are not upsetting to people. Don’t be obnoxious and like, make half the you know, stay away from a few topics, you know, preferably. But if your kids are in baseball and you’re a boy mom, for example, and you’re a family lawyer, you share that thing. Share stuff like that. Tell people It ain’t a picture. Without you telling people who you are, you’re painting a picture of who you are by letting them into your life and letting them know the things that you enjoy. And the same boy, mom, lawyer I know also shares all sorts of things on social media about vacations, taking trips. She and it’s like I always use her as a good example of how to stay married and have a good marriage, while also being a family law attorney, people say, How do you do that when you see marriages falling apart? And the the answer to that is you date your spouse. You have to continue dating your spouse so you don’t just become cohabitants, raising children and like passing in the hallway like roommates, you know, so and I see her, you know, all these pictures and things on Facebook at concerts and all this things that some other lawyers would be horrified by, like, sharing their personal lives. And that was taught to us by, you know, the people in law school back in the day that they said, you know, maintain a separation between attorney and client. That was also true when you had to go to a lawyer just to get to find out what the law is. And now, I mean, chat GBT got a 90% on the bar exam. You can get better legal advice from chat GBT than lawyers half the time. And so it’s not being a gatekeeper of things and humanizing yourself. So I guess my answer is, humanize yourself first.
Steve Fretzin [19:11]
Is it? But it’s okay. So there’s the human side of being authentic and putting out there who you really are and why, what people might like about that side of you, right? People don’t realize you’re riding around in a motorcycle like a gang member, but you’re not. You’re just love motorcycles and you’re passionate about that. Is that better than building up your personal brand in an industry or for a particular practice area? And I’ll give you a quick example. So let’s say that you’re a lawyer in the employment space, and nobody in the country does more work with pest control companies than you. You’re the pest control lawyer. People aren’t wondering about your family, but people are knowing you and calling you if they’re in the pest control business and they need a lawyer to help them with that. With employment, for example, is that better? Worse and different? Same than focusing on.
Nick Augustine [19:59]
Depends on the end. Of it totally depends on the individual. If they’ve got some unique background or experience in that area, if they owned a company, or they grew up in a family that owned a company, doing that, they know something that others don’t. They have an aspect to it that’s unique, that’s a value. So my answer is, find something, whatever it is a value. It might be your personal hobbies. It might be an industry, a family industry that you know a lot about, and that may drive that. It all depends, and it also assumes the answer the question, why there’s such a problem with people copying each other because it’s inauthentic. If you see someone else doing that, well, like they’re talking about, you know, they are tied to a fertilizer company that makes this great fertilizer, and so they’re working on cases involving Monsanto and all that. So they got involved in everything in that arena. So, you know, that would be a thing, but it just, it depends on the person. It doesn’t always apply. So that’s the thing. Like, you can’t there’s no good answer to how to be authentic. It’s in the mirror. You have to look in the mirror. Or, like, ask people’s best you know. How do you know the best way go ask the best friends. And like, parents will say their kid’s a great lawyer no matter what, but ask their friends. Like, why would people hire Bob or Cindy? What about them is so great? Like, why do you like them?
Steve Fretzin [21:16]
Yeah. And what do your clients tell you, right? Like, what are your clients continually telling you why you’re so great, and they’re giving you compliments, and you’re just letting them pass through you instead of recognizing Hey, I’m hearing something over and over that I’m the most highly responsive, or that I I’m making their bill smaller because I’m so efficient in how I’m doing the work, or that my subscription model is unlike anyone else’s, and it’s making their life, you know, so predictable with their spend, and you’re hearing these things over and over, it might be then time to lean into it and go further with it than maybe you have already.
Nick Augustine [21:47]
And listen to people. And when they tell you things, accept it. They’re telling you the truth. If someone gives you a compliment, they’re not, they don’t, don’t assume that they have an underlying motivation just say thank you. You know, it took me a long time to get to get proficient at just saying, Thank you. Yeah, and you know, people will tell you. People who are troublesome will tell you who they are as well. Believe them. People who are good will tell and show you believe them.
Steve Fretzin [22:12]
What happens if you have too many and I’m not, you have too many things, not too many things you do? Well, I don’t want to, like, put that out there, but let’s say, you know, I’ve got the be that lawyer brand. I’ve got the Steve Fretzin brand. I’ve got different elements within those brands, sales, free selling, of how I’m teaching lawyers to sell without selling. I’ve got a personal brand of, you know, fishing with my son and, like, sharing some things about my life with my lawyer father, and all these different things that it’s just like, there’s a lot and so, like, I don’t know if I’m confusing the marketplace, or if it’s, it’s all being related back to, you know, to me as the human I mean, I don’t know, like, that’s, you know, maybe my confusion about my brand.
Nick Augustine [22:50]
Well, and so that may be an issue where you need to differentiate and separate and compartmentalize a few things, thinking of human beings, you know, first, and then thinking of the internet and Google and all that second. Because if you’re confusing, you don’t want to confuse Google those things on separate pages, or do separate websites, separate things, and you’re going to find people who are on your network, so LinkedIn, or wherever they’re going to know you from, where they met you. So they may say, oh, okay, Steve is also into fishing. That’s cool about Steve. Do they think you’re a fishing guide? If they know that you’re Steve Fretzin, to be that lawyer podcast host, you know? I mean, it’s some people may be confused, but I would consider, I would worry about confusing the search engines too, you know. And I look at my own situation with being the founding member of a oil and gas firm, and also, well, so why does he have a digital marketing thing as well? You know? Like, how do you explain that? And I struggle with that. Do I post about? Every time I post something about content marketing, I’m thinking, Oh, is this going to confuse people? I’m wondering, oh, so he’s he not now the guy I can go to for oil and gas deals, you know, or whatever. So, yeah, those are the types of things that people do think about, and those are valid concerns.
Steve Fretzin [24:06]
And that, yeah, I think that’s, you know, and I’ve had multiple businesses before. I think that confused the marketplace. I think, you know, this is a great way to lead into, you know, the idea of focus, and that when you find your differentiator, when you realize why you’re authentically you what you want to put out there, how you need to lean into that one thing. And you know, that’s like city slickers from us in the 80s and 90s, right? City Slickers? Girl, he said one thing. It’s all life is all about one thing. In the case of branding, I think it is. You know, you may have multiple things that you’re known for, multiple things that you do, but I think you have to understand your audiences individually and as groups of what they want and what’s going to be valuable to them, and how they think of you, and maybe focus on that one thing for maybe different groups. So the oil and gas people, you’re focusing on them with one thing, and then the digital marketing, you’re focusing on the one thing for them.
Nick Augustine [24:56]
Right. And also think about different audiences. People are so concerned. Earned again with Facebook. Not everyone who has Facebook is on Facebook. You know, hang out on LinkedIn. Hang out. You know, Instagram. Not everyone is everywhere. And so people tend to see, well, my colleagues who are doing so well are doing this, this, this and this. So I’m going to do the same things, but you don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes, and there may be a reason that works for well for them, but you could do something else for you. I just always love collaborative efforts, and I love doing podcasts with my lawyer clients, because I host podcasts for all these different folks. I’ve done that for 20 years, and I get them to get other people on the podcast. So I did that with one of my family lawyers here in Dallas. We went on spring break tour. Spring Break tour and went, hopped around and did podcasts with all these other people. I just moderated it and said, Go. And I led them. And it was a good thing. And it’s like, wow, no one else was doing that. So, you know, find things like that that people aren’t doing. And I just love the idea again, of, you know, keeping staying and honing that brand and being that guy with the dogs, with the whatever it is, but do it in different formats. Don’t just be stuck in the same format all the time.
Steve Fretzin [26:09]
And also don’t feel like you have to do it yourself, meaning like the be that lawyer brand. I would love to take credit for that, that I came up with the be that lawyer brand. And people tell me on a regular basis that the brand speaks to them right. It’s who they’re talking about at the firm, the person that’s making it rain and all that they get, what be that lawyer is all about. But I hired an agency to help me, you know, they gave me, like, 10 great ideas. As soon as I saw be that lawyer on paper, I said, I don’t have to look at any I’ll look at them because it’s fun, but I don’t need to look at any others like this. You just freaking nailed it in, you know, seven, eight years ago, whatever it was, and so, you know, just continue to push the brand and but it’s what I’ve become known for. So I think that’s really the key. Let’s wrap this up. Any final thoughts about branding, about authenticity, differentiation.
Nick Augustine [26:54]
Yeah, remember why people hire lawyers and why they’re coming to you, especially as I mentioned, AI, people can find out what the statutes are, what the laws are, but they need to know how things actually work. And if you can be the person who shares with them how things actually work, and you have something that, like your brand, is going to lead them to you potentially, but it’s not going to drive the communication, the relationship once they’re there. So just be authentic and just be honest with them and lay out how things work. You know, the idea that you know so much more than they do, the whole wizard behind the curtain, it doesn’t play anymore. That’s tired. Just be yourself and be authentic and be a real human. And people will appreciate that so much with you. And if you just don’t over bill your clients until they’re, you know, broken on the gutter, they’ll send you referrals. I If there’s nothing else that people remember from this talk today, is that the things you do that make yourself authentic encourage referrals, and referrals are gold. Referrals are everything. Please, please focus on referrals.
Steve Fretzin [27:56]
Couldn’t agree more, awesome, man. Let’s move to our game changing podcast. And I spent years listening to Joe Rogan. I think I stopped a long a while ago when his I realized, you know, these are like, three hour segments. They’re taking me forever to get through. But tell everybody a little bit about why you like Joe Rogan.
Nick Augustine [28:12]
Well, I never really listened to him at first, because he was, like, in the popular sphere, the thing of the time. And I don’t like trends. I ignore trends like the OJ trial. I was like, I’m not going to learn anything about criminal law by watching this OJ trial. And I was in college. I’m like, I’m not listening to it. But what I like about their Joe Rogan podcast, and I’ll use the example of Trump being on there. They just had a conversation. It’s you can’t, you know, jump back to your talking points or whatever. And it’s not always going to be on this or that, you know, they’re talking, you know. So they get down to some authentic things. And when you’re not prepared to talk about the things that you’re prepared to talk about, you know, that’s our persona where we, you know, we could just press play and just go on a lot of topics, but ask me about something completely different, and you might find out I’m a very different person than what you thought. And that’s what I like, is when people develop that authenticity and find out who people really are.
Steve Fretzin [29:03]
But I like interviews where they go deeper, right? Like Howard Stern, Oprah, Joe Rogan, like they don’t just stay on the surface. They want to know what’s beneath the comments someone just made or something that they asked him about. So I agree with you. I like that about Joe Rogan, hey, as we wrap up, everybody, want to take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, we’ve got pimcon coming up in October. You’re going to want to sign up and check that out. If you’re in personal injury. Also check out the law her podcast with my friend Sonia over there. And of course, if you’re interested in developing your book, you’re concerned about the economy, the future, anything, and you want to just take things matters into your own hands and meet with me just to have a 30 minute conversation, I’m always up for that. You can email me at [email protected] DM me on LinkedIn, whatever you want to do. And Nick, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about your life, what you’re up to, and how you can help them with branding, digital, etc. What’s the best digits for you?
Nick Augustine [29:55]
Yeah. Telephone number, my cell, everything. Text, cell, call, whatever. 9405977476, again, 940-597-7476, Google, Lone Star content marketing, there’s a library of content on there, and I want to particularly let people know if they are you know, if you’re like me, and you’re 20 years into your career, and you’re not true, sure what you’re doing in practice, there’s a lot of people at larger firms who are going to go out on their own or form things, and they need to develop their own branding and things. So this is not just for people in solos or people running small firms. This is for everyone who has a career and wants to be known and create a legacy that you know, after we’re gone, hopefully someone will remember the work that we did and all the hard work that we put in, because, you know, I hope that we don’t all sit in traffic and wait for judges, for not, you know.
Steve Fretzin [30:51]
Yeah, right. All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show, man, sharing your wisdom. I appreciate you coming on and appreciate you everybody for hanging out with Nick and I for a half an hour. So today on the be that lawyer podcast, stay safe, be well. We’ll talk again very soon.
Narrator [31:07]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website. Fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development. And marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.