In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Pam Meissner discuss:
- Aligning strengths with strategy
- Addressing operational challenges
- Clarifying compensation and career paths
- Maximizing long-term firm value
Key Takeaways:
- Successful firm growth depends on matching personal strengths to business goals. Chasing clients or revenue alone does not ensure satisfaction or long-term success. Intentional planning creates a foundation for sustainable growth and fulfillment.
- Lawyers often face cash flow issues, staff management, and unclear compensation. These operational gaps can lead to stress and sleepless nights if unchecked. Recognizing and addressing challenges early safeguards both firm and personal well-being.
- Open conversations about pay and partnership tracks motivate legal professionals. Transparency fosters equity and encourages long-term commitment from team members. Clear structures help attorneys understand their role in firm growth and success.
- Profitability, efficient systems, and reducing single-owner dependency matter most. External guidance, such as fractional CFOs, can help firms overcome growth plateaus. Strategic planning ensures the firm remains valuable for exits or future opportunities.
“Everybody wants more money, and they don’t realize it comes with problems, and they don’t realize that we all get paid for solving problems, but you have to pick the problems you’re really good at solving, because if you’re solving problems that you’re not good at, you’re going to be miserable.” — Pam Meissner
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About Pam Meissner: Pam Meissner is the COO, Director of Client Services & CFO at CathCap. She is a seasoned CPA and financial executive whose career spans public accounting, multinational corporations, and entrepreneurial ventures. She has served as a CPA, CFO, COO, CEO, and even a stay-at-home mom, bringing a rare combination of technical expertise and real-world business insight to every role. Now at CathCap, Pam leverages her decades of experience to guide clients in financial strategy, operational excellence, and coaching, helping businesses achieve sustainable growth and success.
Connect with Pam Meissner:
Website: https://cathcap.com/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Caution everybody, if you’re banking on doing great work and hoping that someone notices, this may not be a safe space for you. What comes next might shift how you think about growth and control. It’s all in good fun. You know you’re gonna love it. Enjoy the show everybody.
Narrator [00:21]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin
Steve Fretzin [00:43]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and welcome back to the be that lawyer podcast. This is the show for you. If you’re a lawyer and you’re ambitious and you’re hungry and you’re looking to grow, you’re running a law firm, and you’re like, how do I get this thing the next level? We are here twice a week to help you do that and live your best lawyer life to be that lawyer, confident, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. I love, love, love, bringing in great guests. It’s a passion for me, and I’ve got Pam waiting in the wings. It’s so good to see you, and I’ve been such a fan of you and Brooke for so long, and I’m excited to jump in and really have an engaging conversation help a lot of lawyers to Are you up for the challenge? Absolutely. Okay. We got up today, we said, Let’s challenge ourselves, and let’s have some fun and educate some people. Let’s jump in though you’ve got a great and unique quote of the show. Normally, it’s like Gandhi and then another, like, you know, super famous, you know, philosophical people, but some of the best philosophy comes from. Where from? Rappers, right? Yes, was this biggie? Let’s go with this biggie. This is a biggie. This is the biggie. Quote, Mo, money. Mo, problems, or is it more? Is it more or Mo, no, it’s Mo, okay, so I’m grammatically correct and great quote. All right, very good. So welcome to the show. Pam, and please share why that is your quote of the show.
Pam Meissner [01:57]
Yeah, I think everybody wants more money, and they don’t realize it comes with problems, and they don’t realize that we all get paid for solving problems, but you have to pick the problems you’re really good at solving, because if you’re solving problems that you’re not good at, you’re going to be miserable.
Steve Fretzin [02:14]
Yeah, I think that’s fair. I think there’s a lot of lawyers who bring in clients to get the business in right, and then they find themselves behind the eight ball of not knowing, like, really how to do that work or that. They’re just it’s not the work they enjoy. It’s just like, you know, trudging through it, versus, like, really finding the best clients for the right money and doing the stuff you love.
Pam Meissner [02:35]
Yes, and I think you and I were talking before, oftentimes, more money comes with more employees, and it’s inevitably create problems for you, and that is not your bliss. Then you need to either stop doing it or hire somebody to do it, because life is too short.
Steve Fretzin [02:57]
Yeah, I mean, there was a time where I I sort of like felt like a failure if I didn’t scale. And I think that for some people, scaling is 100% the right way to go. You get a big team under you. You’re at the top. They do all the work. They, you know, do all the stuff. You’re out there, you know, selling and thought leadership and having a great time. You can take vacations and all that. And then the other side. For some people like me, love coaching, hate managing. I have one virtual assistant, and I even hate managing him. I tried to tell him, I go, when we start, I go. His name’s Ian, I go, Ian, just so you know, I don’t want to manage you at all. I actually I want you to manage me, because you’re going to be the one who has to tell me what you need to get your job done, because I don’t want to manage you. Now, it turns out I am managing him, and I’m not happy about it, but we’re working together. We’re making it happen. But again, I think to your point, you got to find, like, what your bliss is, and like, what makes you happy in your career, in life.
Pam Meissner [03:55]
Yeah, in life, yeah, absolutely.
Steve Fretzin [03:57]
So everybody. Pam Meissner is the CFO COO at calf cap. Give us a little background how you came to be in that CFO space, because it’s not everybody that can pull that off and be successful doing what you’re doing.
Pam Meissner [04:11]
Yeah. So my story’s the story of the road bliss traveled. You know, I started off Miami of Ohio, undergrad. I got my CPA, went to work for price. Waterhouse got a little bored. You know, you have to wait in line a little bit when you’re coming up the career trajectory in the US. And so I was the first one in 100 years of my family to go back to the homeland. The wall had just come down. Yes, I am that old. So I went over to Poland and did privatization work. There. I got to know Nestle, my largest client there, who offered me the opportunity to be part of the team to open up the Russian market. And boy, was that fun. And it was a time when, you know, there were unique opportunities for women. They were behind a little bit on that front, too. And. We built the business up from, you know, five of us sitting around a table to a billion dollars in sales in three years. And that was fun.
Steve Fretzin [05:09]
That sounds amazing. And then, how does that set you up for, you know, running a company like cafcap?
Pam Meissner [05:15]
Well, that’s a great question, because from there I retired.
Steve Fretzin [05:19]
You’re like, done. That’s right. Next chapter.
Pam Meissner [05:24]
Yada yada yada, long story after long story. Prequel to covid. Everybody was in the house together, nobody was working. Everything was fine, except for I was probably going to get convicted of a felony for taking somebody out. So I went back to work for a local entrepreneur. And I love entrepreneurs, right? They’re just a little quirky and interesting, I would say. And we did again, a lot of M and A work, and everything was great until it wasn’t, you know, I think a lot of people get bored, and that clouds their judgment. And in this case, it was like, you know, he wanted something more, and so insert a liquidity issue. And I said, I think I want to go off and decide what I want to do when I grow up. And in that I found Brooke, and I found Cath cap and I found legal. And I love attorneys, because they didn’t go to school to do numbers, and we can help them in a way. We do a lot of visualizing of information, not so much numbers and boxes, and it’s just a really sweet spot to see them grow and give them permission, because So oftentimes, and you see this in your work, right? They undervalue their services. They have fears about saying, No, they just need a little confidence. And you know, the first thing we do with any law firm is we benchmark them, and nine times out of 10 they’re doing most stuff, right? Yeah. And then we just build on that, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [07:06]
And it’s their unique breed. I mean, highly intelligent. The ones that you work with, and I work with, I’m assuming, are, I mean, I can tell you, from my perspective, are amazing people like I work with, the nicest, best people in the world. You know, everyone that listens to the show. Knows my father was an attorney and smartest guy in any room, sweetheart of a guy, you know, could had had an edge to him, little quirky now, entrepreneur, yeah, I mean, you know, would say inappropriate things to, you know, waitresses and people in line at the grocery, and I would sit there as a teenager, totally embarrassed. I think that was probably half of his fun with me, but he really didn’t understand the business side very well, because, as everyone has said a billion times, we don’t learn this in law school. So there’s numbers and there’s marketing, and there’s operations, and there’s all these management leadership, there’s all these pieces moving around, and I think the lawyers who are the smartest of the lawyers are the ones that don’t take a tremendous amount of time to figure it out, but realize, you know what, I’m great at this, I’m not great at that, and maybe I need to bring in, you know, someone that has more experience and, you know, has a proven system or whatever, to get me through it. And you know, the majority of attorneys that I talked to that are highly successful will always give credit to someone else for helping them through, you know, those pieces, yeah. So let me ask you this, when you think about the top areas that lawyers and law firms struggle with in the business, what are you seeing day to day that are the big ones.
Pam Meissner [08:42]
I think a lot of lawyers lose sleep over cash flow, yeah, and I think a lot of lawyers lose sleep over personnel issues. Compensation is a big one that we deal with. And I think, you know, now, we’re really leaning into the lawyers are like, you know, I’ve spent decades building this firm now what? And so we’re talking to a lot of firms right now about exiting, and I can tell you, if you have two or three years, I can show you two firms that look the same at the top line and are valued completely differently at the bottom line?
Steve Fretzin [09:22]
Well, we have to unpack that. I don’t think I can possibly, as an interviewer of this podcast, not take a few minutes on that. So you have two firms that look the same. One has got a tremendous value. One doesn’t. Where are the gaps?
Pam Meissner [09:36]
Yeah, there’s a couple of them. One is, you know, revenue obviously, is important top line, it is leadership, and leadership in terms of the role of the owner and that they are not critical to the success of the firm. You know, the more that they can develop their team. You know, clearly set the vision and all of that. That, but create systems, a system for getting new clients, a system for working the matters, a system for collecting the money that’s attractive to somebody who’s coming in to buy them you can’t sell yourself. And the other thing is profitability. So whenever you sell a law firm, it’s the combination of total owner benefit or owner discretionary income and a multiple and so we come in with firms, and if you have two to three years, you can impact both of those numbers and dramatically improve your exit value. So you know, I have two clients, one who has tremendous and they’re funny. They’re in the same very narrow line of practice, yeah. And you know, one is chasing top line, and she’s not making anything right. I mean, she has completely sacrificed herself. The other is very and this industry got very disruptive with current administration. The other one said, you know, the market is changing. And they both said that. But one said, I’m going to say yes to everything, and the other said, I’m not going to change the fact that I’m only going to accept clients who meet these criteria. So his like, non negotiables, right, exactly. And so his firm shrunk, but he maintained his profitability. And he said, you know, look, the market’s changing, and I’m gonna have to change my company, and I would put his value at four to five times hers. Wow.
Steve Fretzin [11:41]
I mean, that’s really incredible. And I think one of the issues lawyers have, especially law firm owners, is they just don’t think ahead. I think they’re in the weeds. They’re in the quicksand day to day, and they need to, like, keep the end in mind. I think every entrepreneur hears that from every consultant, like, ever that’s ever lived, is right, keep start from the end like, what do I What do you as an entrepreneur? What do you as a law firm owner, want out of this? Where do you want to be in 10 years? What does the exit look like? And then work backwards from there? Do you kind of assist them in sort of seeing that, in mapping out that play?
Pam Meissner [12:17]
Yes, we have an exit readiness offering that we have, you know, it’s, it’s fairly reasonably priced that helps walk them through that. Because it’s not only the financial exit, you know, a lot of their self esteem is wrapped up in their business. Yeah. And so how are you going to do after you get this money? You know, what are you going to do? And, you know, people usually can think out of things they’d like to do, you know, their bucket list that’ll last them a year or two, yeah, but after that, then what?
Steve Fretzin [12:50]
Yeah, really, really interesting. So there’s, I was talking with a client last night, and he was doing great his I don’t know something happened where his biggest clients kind of put things on hold, and he had to let go and associate, but he has a full time it’s a small firm, but he has a full time CFO. And I didn’t say anything to him, but I was like, you let go your associate, who does all the work, who knows your business and is totally competent, and you made this decision with a full time CFO, and you’re a small firm, like, explain that to me? Yeah, any I didn’t ask that, because if I did, I don’t know how, like, I didn’t want to ask that.
Pam Meissner [13:30]
I find that the attorneys like I challenged.
Steve Fretzin [13:35]
Yeah, it might. I did offer that we should sit down and have a conversation and try to, this is a past client of mine, and I was like, well, maybe we should sit down and talk about business development and low hanging fruit and that I just didn’t have, I didn’t have the courage in the moment at, you know, a cocktail hour to ask him that, or to challenge him on that. But I don’t think I have a problem going back to him with that. But I, I was surprised, because that’s, I don’t know what he’s paying his CFO or equity. I don’t even know, but it was, I was a little, I was a little taken aback.
Pam Meissner [14:02]
Yeah, and that’s why we as as fractional, you know, our goal is for people to graduate. Our goal is for people to grow so that they need a full time. CFO, yeah, you know. And so we’re looking at it like, what are we going to do in the next two, three years? Now, I have clients who fall in love with us and have been with us for much, much longer. Yeah, but you know it, it is nice to have a partner who is Frank that you know whether their health insurance is covered or not next month doesn’t depend on you.
Steve Fretzin [14:42]
Yeah, everybody as you know, one of the biggest challenges that law firms and lawyers face is hiring many attorneys. Know they need help, a virtual assistant, paralegal, legal secretary, but just don’t have the time to find and vet the right person. Well, that’s where hirearelegals.com comes in. They do all the heavy lifting, pre vetting, top 10. Candidates who were in your time zone and ready to work firms save hundreds of hours every year and can hire for as little as 2000 per month. And for be that lawyer listeners like you, you’re going to get 500 off your first hire when you visit hire paralegals.com and use the promo code steam with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today, hey everybody. It’s Steve fretzen as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzen.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. The question that someone might be like, based on the conversation we just had last like two minutes, is like someone sitting there going, you know, I don’t know if I’m ready to bring in a fractional CFO. How does someone know or recognize that they’re at that stage where that’s the right play?
Pam Meissner [16:22]
Yeah, great question. I think first, they’re more than $2 million in annual revenue, okay, then the cost of an organization like ours is too significant of a spend, and that’s not where we want to be, okay. Second is, you know, they’re losing sleep at night. You know, they, you know, are struggling with cash flow, or they don’t know their numbers. And three is they want to go big and go fast, and they’ve tried that, and it’s not working, so they’ve reached some kind of a ceiling, and they’re not able to break through. Yeah, that’s when people call us.
Steve Fretzin [16:59]
Got it. Got it. That makes a lot of sense. The problem is sometimes, yeah, just waiting too long again, trying to figure it out yourself. I mean, these are perfectionist people who, you know, they say it’s just easier for me to figure it out. And I think we’ve hit that on the show, like, ad nauseam, like, we’ve hit that a lot, and it’s happening too much. And again, I whether it’s business development or the numbers or any of that. I mean.
Pam Meissner [17:22]
Chat GPT could do it for them.
Steve Fretzin [17:24]
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s some good things that we can use that for, but when we get into the specifics of human beings and decisions and numbers and things, I just don’t think our computers get ready for that yet, or may not be for a while. I mean, I’m a coach. I think people can put in to chat. GBT, you know, I need to grow my law practice. I need to leverage, you know, business development. What should I do? There’s that, what it pumped the prompts and what it pumps out, and then there’s actually execution. I mean, my dad and I had this goof a long time ago when I wrote my first book. He’s like, What are you doing, giving away all your secrets. People are going to know what you’re teaching, and they’re just they’re not going to need not going to need you anymore. I said Dad, didn’t you buy a book on golf? And he goes, Yeah. I go, Well, are you a scratch golfer? He’s like, Oh no, I guess not. Good point, right? So, right. You can ask chat, GPT, you can read a book, you can educate yourself on things. But I don’t think there’s any any argument that can be made that having the human, the interaction, the accountability of a professional in your in your world, you know, it makes for growth. Yeah, so let’s talk about you mentioned earlier an area that I heard recently that I was like shocked, was some firms still have closed comp plans. They don’t no one knows what they’re making. No one knows what they’re getting. No one knows what their bonuses. They don’t know how to make equity. It’s just a big mystery, and they’re just being told to kind of keep quiet. And I don’t know how someone functions in that space, unless they just want to continue being a service partner forever and just take what you take. How do you work with organizations that have outdated or no systems at all for not only comp, but also for, you know, how they, you know, manage people, or how they can get explosive growth, right?
Pam Meissner [19:10]
But we are a big believer in over communicating, and I think a couple of things that the comp model you described, I call as the Santa Claus approach, okay, because it you know, the owners feel like Santa Claus, and they give these gifts, and people are like, okay, but they don’t send any messages with them, right? And I think the fallacy that leaders make is that people don’t talk, and you have to approach comp as if it’s an open book, yeah, as if everybody’s going to share the details. And that creates a lot of fear, because if there’s no system behind it, it’s just favoritism, right? It’s the feeling of the season. And you know, a lot of of that kind of stuff. You know. Is very much like year end bonus and all this kind of stuff. And if you don’t talk to them about what success looks like, don’t be surprised if you don’t get it. Yeah, you know people, in my experience, want to please, but if they don’t know what that is, they don’t know how to do it, yeah, and so if that is you need to, and we have this path to partnership program that we we walk clients through, because it’s different in every firm. And you and I know that you can teach everybody in the firm the basics of business development, and how many people out of a group of a dozen will actually lean in two?
Steve Fretzin [20:50]
Okay, yeah, that’s not actual data, but that is 17 plus years of experience working with law firms and lawyers and having spent significant time, and it’s one of the reasons, and I mentioned this before, I don’t work with law firms anymore. I spend more time talking law firms out of hiring me to work with their firm than I do working with the firm. I what I really want to do is I want to go in to your point, educate them on the basics, see who rises to the top, and it’s the one or two attorneys where the investment should be made, and the firm shouldn’t pay the whole fee. I think that half should come from the lawyer, because if they don’t have skin in the game, they’re not really demonstrating a willingness and an interest in taking accountability to, you know, on that investment being made, and it proves that they’re really real about wanting and motivated to grow, versus people who are taking a handout and are just trying to please, to your point, exactly, please the firm by saying yes to a program they don’t want to be involved in.
Pam Meissner [21:49]
So you go to law school, and the whole time in your career, you are told that the goal is to be a partner, right? You survey partners who maybe are running a boutique law firm, and they don’t know how they got there, but they’re very entrepreneurial, right? And everybody thinks being a partner, an equity partner, is the end all be all and it’s not for a couple of reasons. Yeah. One, I’ll tell you a story. So the the firm that I came out of retirement for, you know, one Christmas Eve, I was offered 51% of the company, 100 million dollar company, and the 100% owner, you know, thought that I’d be like, yes, but partnership is kind of like marriage, you know, yeah. And I, I didn’t want that. And so the best decision I ever said was, I don’t want that equity, because as an employee, you can walk as an owner, that’s a that’s like a divorce, yeah, right? A business divorce, yeah. And as an owner, you get the downside. You get the personal guarantees on the line of credit, you know, you get the agony of how much we’re going to pay people, oh, people only think about the upside of all the profits. Well, some years, you know, let’s say you’re getting new office space that Ti is a big spend. And I don’t know about you, but in many firms that I work with, the contributions of the equity partners are very different.
Steve Fretzin [23:33]
Yeah. I mean, the partnership has its ups and its downs. I like the idea of a lawyer going from associate to partner to equity, if that’s you know, the commitment they want to make to the firm, and that’s the commitment they want to make to sticking around long term and being a part of the growth and the leadership and all of that. And by the way, if you you know, do that with business development and get that one, two, $3 million book. Because even though you might be a partner, if you decide that, you know, the culture is soured, or you decide, or you realize, like, you know, they just got gobbled up by even a bigger firm. You know, you can still walk with your clients and your base, and you’re giving up maybe that equity, but you’re going to get maybe equity at the next place if you have that book carried over, right? So we’re all looking for that. And by the way, the line that I have goofed about for 20 years is no ship sinks quite like a partnership, right? So, right. So there’s one to steal. So I think there’s a line that people need to follow and decisions that need to be made about where you want to be if you’re in the right place, with the right culture, with the right people, and you you know, like that, marriage is going to be sound. Then I love the idea of taking it, and if you have any questions about it, and you’re right, you don’t, you know, know the people well enough, or you know, you think partnership is great, but you’re Who are you marrying? You know you’re marrying a massive ego who runs the place like a tyrant. You know that’s not going to be. A great marriage, right? Yeah. Well, really, fantastic. So I love to end the show this way, but it and it’s happening, and there’s no way to stop it or slow it down. What’s Pam’s big mistake?
Pam Meissner [25:14]
Pam’s big mistake. I have many, many people describe me as one of the strongest people they know, because I I’ve had many opportunities to be resilient. I think my biggest mistake to date has been being too loyal and staying in a role that I thought I was adding value, and it was not serving me.
Steve Fretzin [25:41]
And a lot of people that are hearing this right now are nodding their heads the way you and I are, because they’re in that space right now and they don’t necessarily know how to get out of it. And we all want to please right? And we all want to be loyal. There’s a lot of of great qualities in being loyal, but if it isn’t serving you, and then it affects how you then serve others, right? That’s where things fall apart. So how did you what? So you learned that, and then.
Pam Meissner [26:08]
Well, the mistake was I didn’t leave as gracefully as I would have liked.
Steve Fretzin [26:12]
Okay, okay. So lesson learned that.
Pam Meissner [26:17]
You know, it was me being pulled away to something so much better, something I could have never dreamed about. And you know what I have at Cath cap with Brooke is, you know, many people’s dream. You know, I have flexibility. I have a disabled son, adult son, and I can support him. You know, we talked earlier this year, my husband passed away, and I could navigate that. You know, if you’re not happy, give yourself the gift and make a change.
Steve Fretzin [26:50]
It can be the biggest takeaway, you know, from this year. I mean, I hate to put that pressure on you on the end of this podcast, but you know, people that just listen to that to the end of this show. Can take so much from that and and just life lesson of make yourself happy, and you know, Adversity is going to keep coming at us, and we’ve got to just stand tall and deal with it. And there’s no other option. Really, fantastic. So let’s take a moment. Thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, we’ve got a higher paralegals.com so again, Delegate all that junk away. They’ve got lad hire too. They’ve got a bunch of a group of companies that help you delegate. I think that’s a huge part of success in growing a business, a law firm. We’ve got rankings. Io, crushing it. Continue to crush it for their personal injury firms that engage them and the law her podcast with Sonia, amazing podcast there. Pam, people want to get in touch with you. They’re frustrated, they’re tired, and they need some help. They’re not sleeping at night. We got to sleep at night. People, what are the best ways for them to reach you?
Pam Meissner [27:49]
Yeah, sure. Just email me at Pam, at Cath Cap Com. It’s a bit of a tongue twister, C, A, T, H, C, A, P, or visit our [email protected].
Steve Fretzin [28:03]
Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you for coming on sharing your wisdom, and you’ll tell BROOKE I said, Hello, she’s one of my favorite people. Yes, all right, fantastic. Well, thank you, and thank you everybody for hanging out with Pam and I for the last 30 you know, just go back and replay this, or, I don’t know if you’re taking notes, like I’m taking notes, just so much to unpack, and in particular, the end of just life lessons that are really critical to, you know, our long term success and happiness. So, you know, take heed and warning, and also, let’s have fun in life, right? Let’s not suffer in silence and lose sleep, right? Let’s take things seriously, but let’s have some fun too. All right, everybody, that’s all I got to say about that. Be that be that lawyer. Everybody, confident, organized, skilled Rainmaker, take care, be safe, be well. And you know what? We will talk again soon. Thanks everybody.
Narrator [28:51]
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.