In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Phyllis Sisenwine discuss:
- The importance of networking and relationship-building for professional growth
- Effective time management and productivity strategies
- How to leverage speaking engagements and visibility opportunities
- The role of follow-up, asking for referrals, and accountability in business development
Key Takeaways:
- Interruptions can cost lawyers over an hour of billable time each day, so using strategies like time blocking, decluttering workspaces, and tackling the hardest tasks first ensures greater focus and productivity.
- Networking becomes far more effective when approached strategically by going early to events, bringing a buddy for support, wearing a professional nametag, and consistently following up multiple times to turn introductions into trusted relationships.
- Speaking engagements generate real business opportunities only when lawyers prepare by connecting with attendees beforehand, personalizing their talks with stories, gathering contact details, and following up afterward to continue the relationship.
- Lawyers often miss out on referrals because clients assume they are too busy, so they must directly but naturally ask for introductions by framing it as a way to be helpful and showing they want more clients like the ones they already serve.
“You really can’t be afraid to swing that bat. You want to be a successful lawyer. You can’t be afraid to network, to reach out to big referral partners and just take risks.” — Phyllis Sisenwine
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Episode References:
Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy: https://www.amazon.com/Eat-That-Frog-Great-Procrastinating/dp/162656941X
How to Become a Rainmaker by Jeffrey J. Fox: https://www.amazon.com/How-Become-Rainmaker-Getting-Cust
About Phyllis Sisenwine: Phyllis Sisenwine is certified by the International Coaching Federation with the highest designation of Master Certified Coach. She is in the top 4% of the 50,000 credentialed coaches. She provides coaching services to lawyers who want to achieve greater professional and personal success. For over 25 years, Phyllis has worked with lawyers to focus on client development and creating strategies to increase performance and profitability.
Connect with Phyllis Sisenwine:
Website: http://thelawyerscoach.com/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phyllissisenwine
https://www.facebook.com/people/Phyllis-Sisenwine-Powerful-Coaching/100066793183035/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin here, and if you’re enjoying be that lawyer you’re going to want to check out my brand new show. Be that lawyer Coaches Corner, with Steve Fretzin. It’s just me sharing strategies and systems lawyers use to gain more freedom, control and independence in their careers. We’ve already got episodes live, so check it out. Be that lawyer Coaches Corner. Give it a listen today on all major channels and enjoy the show
Narrator [00:26]
you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin, hey everybody.
Steve Fretzin [00:48]
Steve Fretzin, here and welcome back for another fun and hopefully exciting. I don’t know exciting Phyllis is that? Am I setting us up for Master, setting ourselves up for we’re both bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. Here you’re in Florida right
Phyllis Sisenwine [01:03]
at the moment, I’m actually in New Jersey. Oh, okay, house in a Florida House.
Steve Fretzin [01:07]
Well, then it’s got to be east side of Florida. Is that? That’s where the Jersey, New York, okay? And as Chicago, folks, we float down the west coast, the Gulf side, right? That’s a deal. We made sure. I don’t know why. Anyway, welcome everybody to the show. We are going to have some fun today. And this show, as you guys know, is be that lawyer. It’s all about being the best lawyer you could be, yes, but also, you know, looking at the business side, looking at the stuff you didn’t learn at law school, and trying to understand, hey, there’s another whole side to this legal thing that I’ve got to figure out in order to develop control, independence, financial freedom in your life and your career as a lawyer. That’s what this show be. That lawyer is all about. So as we love to do, we are going to start off with our quote of the show. Now, Phyllis, you sent me sort of a setup here, so I’m going to set up and then the quote, I think, is yours. It’s not like a quote you picked up, but it’s your quote based off of this statement. So here we go. Babe. Ruth is one of the greatest sports heroes. Was the home run king. Broke a record for most home runs at the same time, struck out more than any other player. He was the home run king and the strikeout King. So if you want to hit a home run, don’t be afraid to swing the bat. Welcome to the show. And tell us why you love that quote so much.
Phyllis Sisenwine [02:15]
Well, it’s funny when I speak, I always end with that quote, because people in sales and business development, you have to take a risk. You have to go to a networking event. You have to approach somebody who’s a big, you know, potential client, yeah? And I love the fact that Babe Ruth struck out more than anyone, but he hit more home runs than anybody, yeah. So want to hit a home run. You really can’t be afraid to swing that bat. You want to be a successful lawyer, you can’t be afraid to network, to reach out to big referral partners, and just take risks swing that you’ll hit a home run.
Steve Fretzin [02:46]
Yeah, one of my clients, just this morning, posted about her autistic 18 year old son, just turned 18, had a birthday party and posted on LinkedIn and kind of you know, like talk about how everybody in the community came together to really support her son and have a great birthday party. And I thought, you know, putting yourself out there that is really something special when you can, you know, go outside of comfort zones, right, to post something or to do something, go to a networking event where you’re totally not comfortable, and then get through the other side of it, right?
Phyllis Sisenwine [03:16]
Absolutely, I do work with clients a lot on networking. Lawyers are not naturally taught in law school, for sure, how to how to build relationships. And a big part of business development is building relationships, referral partners, professional relationships. So I do work with clients a lot on being more comfortable walking into a networking room. And I often suggest take a buddy, take somebody else and introduce them, and they introduce you. This is the best lawyer I know. If you have any PI issues, that’s who you call, yeah. So it’s a lot easier when you bring a buddy, yeah. So I often suggest that and go early. Don’t walk into a room with hundreds of people. You go early. There’s only a few people in the room. You kind of greet people as they attend. So there are strategies to how to network, but it’s a great thing to deal with business development.
Steve Fretzin [04:03]
Yeah, and just news for everybody listening right now or watching, you’re probably going to walk away from this particular episode with a dozen ideas on how to be a better business developer, networker, because Phyllis and I are going to just jam pack this 30 minutes for you guys. So I would really recommend, I don’t know about taking notes, but mental notes, or maybe write that something down, or maybe listen to it back one way or the other. We’re going to do it. Let me just introduce so you guys get to know Phyllis, and by the way, superstar in provide in the provisors community, like there are people that get talked about, and then there’s Phyllis, like she’s way up at the top of like people appreciating what she does in her business. So Phyllis, since since and wine, is a master certified coach at the lawyers coach and we met through, what is it? Was it the flag, or was it the Boston what was it? I think it was probably the Philadelphia, Philadelphia lawyer affinity. Yeah, yeah. What a great
Phyllis Sisenwine [04:51]
I’m not a lawyer. Improvisers. There are certain lawyer groups where you can go with a non lawyer.
Steve Fretzin [04:56]
You don’t have to tell me twice, yeah, we go where we’re wanted. Valley. But give us a little background how you came to be, because you didn’t probably plan that you’re going to work with lawyers
Phyllis Sisenwine [05:06]
when you’re not at all. I was in sales. Sold office supplies very successfully. Staples. Bought the company. Everything changed. They wanted core reports and who you’re going to pull your prospects. And it was just, I said, I’m out of here. This is not going to work. And somebody, Phyllis, 25 years ago, Steve, somebody said, Phyllis, you have to become a coach. Nobody knew what a business coach was. So I thought, Okay, I’ll go out and coach people. Said, what sport do you coach? Yeah. Nobody knew what a business coach was, yeah. So I would coach sales people. But my third client was a lawyer. I went to a networking event, and a lawyer hired me. A week later, she gave me a referral of a lawyer in New York, and then another lawyer showed up. And I thought, You know what? Lawyers need, sales and business development. So I got the domain name, the lawyers coach.com, and I started to speak at bar associations. And lawyers were hungry for business development, and especially the younger associates. They didn’t have enough mentors. They wanted to become partner. So my business just took off very rapidly because lawyers really wanted, and they still do want, business development, as you know, yeah,
Steve Fretzin [06:07]
I do know, and you found it a lot faster than I did. I think I did it, like, maybe four or five years of working with carpet cleaners and financial planners and accountants, and I had, like, I got experience in 50 industries, which was great, but no lawyers. And then all of a sudden, I think it was 2000 think it was 2008 with the recession, that’s when the flood happened for me. And I was like, Oh my God. I had no clue how little they knew about it and how much they needed. And so it was like, oh, like, Moses parting the seas in some ways. So we’ve covered this like a nauseum, that lawyers don’t learn this stuff in law school. We get it right. But I mean, other than that, why do they struggle so much on the BD front,
Phyllis Sisenwine [06:45]
I think a lot of it is time management. You don’t realize interruptions set us back. 26 minutes, three interruptions, you’ve lost over an hour a day. And lawyers, it’s all about the billable hour. I mean, any successful business person time is what we have time is, but especially with lawyers who keep track of their billable hours, they get interrupted. Got a minute? That minute takes 26 you want to have a cup of coffee, or they interrupt themselves. I think I’ll check my email. I think I’ll do this. And when somebody stops by and says, got a minute? No, I’m sorry. I’m in the middle of something or close your door. So a lot of it is time management, yeah, and also staying focused. You know, what do you want to accomplish today? You get distracted. We all do. If you’re really focused on what you want to accomplish, and that’s where coaching with you and with me comes in. They have a plan, they have an agenda, and they’re accountable, and they more likely will follow their plan when they’re checking in with their coach.
Steve Fretzin [07:42]
Okay, so if time management and focus are kind of the cornerstones of what needs to happen to then allow the things we’re going to talk about in a few minutes to happen. What’s one or two tips that you work with your clients on to help either A, keep them focused, or B, help them with time management?
Phyllis Sisenwine [07:59]
Well, one, as I said, is minimize interruptions. They don’t realize it. And years ago, I remember hearing about the Pomodoro method. I think it’s like, block out two hours and then take a break. Two more hours, then take a break. So I try to have my clients block out time, close your door. A lot of people work remote, wherever you are, just block out the two or hours or whatever. If you can do three, whatever you can do, and focus during that time, and then make your phone calls, check your emails, but otherwise you’re constantly starting and stopping and losing hours a day. Yeah. So number one, I would say, time block. Time blocking focus and have a have a priority list. What it’s really important to do today, just to my clients, before you leave your office, have your plan for the next day. What are you going to accomplish? First things first, and really make sure you have a productive day, because it’s easy to get distracted. So I focus on what’s really important. What are your priorities? And look at your time management and be organized. People have a messy, messy desk. They walk in. I had a client I remember saying to what does your desk look like? He said, Oh, my God, you don’t want to know. Yeah, he came in on a Sunday. He had it, and he even bought his assistant in on a Sunday. They cleared and filed and and dumped a lot of stuff. He said, I walked in on Monday and I felt empowered. Yeah, that was a word he used, yeah, his was clean and organized. So I often ask, Do you have a lot of clutter? Because that can energy drain. So if you’re organized and efficient, look at your time management and just look at how you spend your day, and focus. It’s all about focus.
Steve Fretzin [09:34]
There’s two things too that I would add in from that. And one is, you know, the idea of eating the frog. And for those who don’t know what that means. It’s like, what’s the nastiest, hairiest thing or the most challenging thing that you need to do in a day and not get out early. So if you’re if business development is important to you, and you’re finding that it’s getting sidelined all day because of emergencies and fires from clients and things like that, do it first thing in the morning, right? Do it get up at early do it at 7am before you. Day can get hijacked and you end up in email jail or wherever you end up. That’s one thing. The other thing is, to your point about focus, you’ve got to shut down things. You’ve got to shut down your email, shut down your phone, shut off social media, and really focus to get it done and not get that interruption to happen. So keep going though you’re on a tear, and
Phyllis Sisenwine [10:18]
Eat That Frog. It’s one of my favorite books, because it is about doing the most disgusting task. First we put off either we don’t have enough information or it’s just, oh, I don’t feel like doing that. And I’ve sent little frogs to my clients to put on their desk. Nice. And I gave a CLE for a law firm recently in Florida, and I found in a gift shop a bag of candy frogs. And I said, Every morning, I physically had them eating a frog
Steve Fretzin [10:44]
that’s so crazy, that is so creative. I love that. I love that. And by the way, everybody that’s, I believe that’s a Brian Tracy book, Eat That Frog and then. But I think originally it came either from Mark Twain or something like eat the frog. But it’s Yeah, but it’s a great thing to and for me, it’s Pilates. I do not want to go. I do not want to be there. It’s the hardest thing I’m going to do all day and that. But when I walk out of that place knowing that I did an hour, man, I feel great. I absolutely feel great. The other thing that I want to add is getting things done. You guys have heard me talk about that, but we talked about clearing the clutter when I did it. I mean, I’m just going to make up a number and say 19 years ago or 18 years ago. I can’t say I physically felt it, but I felt the weight off my shoulders when I cleared out my inbox, when I cleared out physical paper, I had two huge, mega bags of paper to recycle that was my office, and stacks of business cards fill us like two seemingly to the ceiling that had not been put into some system. So I think that’s a book that really will empower people to get organized. Because, to your point, without that organization, very challenging to do things that we’re going to talk about next, which is, all right, now we’re organized. We have our time manage. We’re putting time into it. What? How do lawyers figure out where they should spend their time on BD or networking,
Phyllis Sisenwine [12:02]
I would say who’s your best referral source. Look at your client list. Who have you worked with in the past and who’s a great referral source? Professional partners. Very often, financial planners work well with lawyers. Other lawyers are great referral partners. CPAs, it depends on the type of law that you’re in, but you really need to have a strategy and a plan and then so you reach out to and build relationships. It’s all about no liking and trusting your buddies. And if you meet people and you like them and you want to do business together, build relationships. And it takes, as you know, in sales, six to eight touches before you really have a relationship. You can’t just send them an email. Or do a lunch. People have lunch. Oh, we hit it off, great. I will have to do and they never hear from them again. Or people say, Let’s get together, and you don’t follow up. Following up is critical for business development. Meet people, let’s get together. But nobody takes action. So you meet somebody for lunch, or you do a zoom one on one meeting, and then you follow up and you keep in touch with them. It could be five, six or seven times until you really get do business together. But you have to be persistent.
Steve Fretzin [13:06]
So what’s included in because that’s the question that needs to be answered. Like we could like, I remember when I interviewed managing partners years before I did a podcast and managing partners, would I say, what do you tell yourself, you got to get out there? Well, you already have said you’ve got to go after low hanging fruit, you’ve got to go after referral sources, and then it’s touches. So what? So I don’t have business for someone, right? So what am I doing next? What are the touches that should occur
Phyllis Sisenwine [13:30]
business for them? You can say, How can I be helpful? That’s my favorite sentence, by the way, with everybody, ask people you’re not in sales. Nobody wants to be a salesperson. But you can say, How can I be helpful? And I often say, who’s a good referral for you, and I introduce them to other people that they would like to meet. So I’m not getting business out of it, but I’m being useful and helpful to them. How can I be helpful? Who do you want to meet? I have a big network. I’m happy to introduce you to other people who could be good referral partners for them. Yeah. So if you’re not doing business with everybody we meet, but if we’re helpful, they will appreciate it and remember us.
Steve Fretzin [14:07]
The two things I want to add to that, because it’s exactly correct, is, one is to make sure that you’re figuring out you know that if you can help others as a way to build trust and to way to build likability. That’s going to stand out from the rest of the Networkers who say, finish a networking lunch with this is great. I think this is a love fest. Let’s keep our eyes open, and then it’s gone and you never see them again, right? So that’s so giving allows for demonstration of that, and maybe a next step, because you’re seeing that. But here’s the other piece that’s missing sometimes, is is I’m also teaching my clients and wanting them to qualify people, because you might find what you believe to be the best strategic partner in the world, because they are doing nothing but working with your kind of clients, but they’re not good, a good practitioner, or they don’t they don’t have the organizational skills to follow up like there’s problems with this person. That could impact your ability to quid pro quo or to network effectively with them. Do you see that? And if so, how do you help people figure out not to go down that rabbit hole?
Phyllis Sisenwine [15:11]
Well, there you just have to have trust your gut and have common sense. I introduce people to people all the time. I can’t guarantee it’s going to be a great fit, and it’s really up to them to go forward, yeah, but I my best judgment before I do make up a match, I’m a matchmaker. What can I say? Yeah, yeah. But before I do introduce somebody to somebody else, I hope it’s a good fit and that they are both ethical and, you know, in integrity, and that they’re going to be a good fit together. But there are no guarantees. You just, you just trust your intuition when you meet people, and if you think they’re a good person to introduce to, and you take that risk and hope it works out, I
Steve Fretzin [15:47]
guess, but you would, I’m assuming, try to validate that you know enough that they’re good at what they do, or to know enough that they’re a good person, a good human being, before, and I, by the way, I introduced my sister to a lactation consultant when she was having trouble breastfeeding, And why her brother knows that is a different story. Different story. But it turned out this woman was like the lactation Nazi, and she made my sister cry because she was so horrible. Like, if you don’t breastfeed your child, you’re literally killing your baby. This is the worst thing you can like, my sister was like, beside herself, and I didn’t qualify this person before I introduced to my sister. So bad news is, my sister got, like, the worst referral ever. Good news, I got a good story out of it. So sometimes you gotta take the good with
Phyllis Sisenwine [16:26]
the bad, right? It is true, and I am. I tried to be careful before I introduced but I did have one bad experience where I gave somebody a referral, yeah, and they weren’t a good fit, yeah, and I didn’t hire the person, so I didn’t really know. I just took their reputation and their, you know, commercial about how wonderful they were, and I believed it, but you do have to be careful for sure.
Steve Fretzin [16:47]
Yeah, one out of 1000 I think we’ll take that stat. You know, that’s okay. But I think what lawyers are not understanding fully is that networking is, you know, work. It’s right in the middle of the words. So we need to think about how we can be productive in networking. And going back to one of the first things you said, you know, these are billable hours. And so if you’re going to go out and network, and you’re going to invest, you know, 100 200 hours a year in this thing called networking, and you’re not productive, you’re not efficient, you’re not finding that there’s results from it, that’s when I think you and I step in, either as coaches or as people that can give them ideas and process and systems and questions to ask things that are going to help speed up the process.
Phyllis Sisenwine [17:26]
The first thing I say is, where do you want to network? Where are your ideal clients? Where are professional partners? You can’t just show up randomly and go to a networking but you want to be strategic. So where are the better networking groups, where your ideal clients are hanging out and then always go early. Wear a name tag. If they give you a little sticky name tag with you can’t even read the name have a professional name tag. Wear it on your right shoulder. When people shake your hands, that’s where they look if they’re a righty and go early. Otherwise, it’s overwhelming for anybody. The most you know, the greatest network in the world. If you walk into a couple 100 people in a room, you don’t really know where to start. Also never interrupt when two people are speaking, because they could be doing business. You want three or four little groups. You can walk in and introduce yourself, but I always say go early and follow up, follow up, follow up after a meeting, be sure to really keep in touch with the people that you’ve met. Yeah, and look for ideal groups. And as I said, buddy networking. And hopefully you’ll get to speak at a networking event. That’s the key. If you’re just attending, you meet five people when you speak, you meet everybody. So I encourage my clients to do speaking engagements. Yeah, marketing strategy, I think one.
Steve Fretzin [18:36]
Let’s come back to that in a moment. I want to stay for a moment on networking events, the tip that I do, and you and I both do this, I’m sure very well, which is, we meet someone. We find out they want to meet CPAs. We know three CPAs in the room, and we walk them up to one or two CPAs, and we start being valuable right from the get go, right? We’re making a friend. We’re making connections for people at the event. The other side of it is when you’re new in an event and you know someone that’s there, ask them, like, Hey, I’m new here. Do you know any lawyers here? Do you know any people that do this, that and the other and have them walk you up, if they’re comfortable, to walk you up. And now you’re not feeling like an individual walking blindly into this event. You’re getting you’re having some advocacy done. Any other tips for events that you’d share like that? Well, just basically, as I said, go where your go where the fish are. You know, if you’re going to fish, there’s a great book about how to be a rainmaker. And one of them is, where should you fish? Yeah, and you have, you could have the best line, you could have the best bait, you can have the best everything. But if there’s no fish there, you’re not going to catch fish. So go where the fish are most important, go to a networking group where you want to meet professionals that you can have a good relationship with. That’s the main thing. Don’t waste your time if you think it’s chambers might not be good for you. Bar Associations might be great. Go where your fish are. Go where the fish are. All right, I love it. You. Hey, pi attorneys, if you’re serious about scaling your firm, there’s one event you can’t afford to miss. Pim con 2025 happening October 5 through the eighth at the Phoenician resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. Pimcon isn’t your average legal conference. It’s an experience. Learn how to take your firm from good to goat with some of the biggest trailblazers in the PI space, including yours truly, as we share our elite marketing and brand building strategies. Tickets on sale [email protected] that’s p i m, c o n.org, or just hit the link in the show notes. Your climb to the top starts at PIM con 2025 let’s go from good to go. Hey, be that lawyer friends. If you’re looking for smarter ways to grow your law practice and want to stay ahead of the curve in legal, tech, business and strategy, then it’s time to check out legal verse media, the go to hub for lawyers who want more. This international platform connects you with global thought leaders through articles, podcasts, webinars and interactive forums that are shaping the future of law, explore everything with a free 14 day trial, including early access to tools peer discussions and a chance to build your brand as a thought leader. Don’t wait. Visit legalverse media.com and register for membership today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law of practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. So All right, guys, we’re already at like eight, like takeaways already. So here we go. We’re gonna hit 12. I know it you mentioned speaking. One of the concerns and the challenges that lawyers have is, yes, they can speak to a group, and it could be at a networking event. It could be like in front of a like a bar association, it could be whatever, and then they speak, and then they leave, and then they go somewhere else, and they speak, and then they leave. Now they’re building their brand in doing that, but it doesn’t always lead to business. I think it’s frustrating for them when it doesn’t. So what are some tips to getting business from speaking?
Phyllis Sisenwine [22:17]
A strategy from how to get business from speaking, yeah, before you show up at the event, get a couple of names of the attendees. I personally speak to three or four people that signed up for the event. What do you want to hear at this program? What’s an important thing that you’re dealing with right now? And they think that I’m customizing my speech for them. Even though I have my speech, I will modify it. Yeah, I walk into a room three or four people, Phyllis, I’m the one you spoke to. I’ve already built a relationship with the audience before I even show up. Yeah, and then I always have them sign up for my newsletter. Or if you’re interested in a coaching session, please sign up for coaching and follow up is critical. Like everybody in the room usually signs up for my newsletter, and several people want a coaching session, or they want me to speak at their group. Yeah, so I’m also get gathering more, you know, referrals from that speaking engagement, and then follow up with everybody in the room and email them thank you for coming. If I can be helpful, please reach out. Yeah, your marketing before you even show up, and, of course, during your speech, weave in a success story that they hear me.
Steve Fretzin [23:21]
Yeah, wow. You guys right there. I mean, there’s five right there. We’re already over 12. The what I’m hearing you say, and what I think aligns with, what I believe as well, is that it’s a little bit like a story. Every good story has a beginning, a middle and an end. In this case, it’s there’s some planning that goes into it. There’s some execution. When you’re there, presenting and how you’re connecting, sharing a success story, maybe even finding some pain in the room, of like, things that they are challenged by, that you can resolve in that meeting, in that speak. And then lastly is the follow up. Like you leave an event, you’ve got a list of people that were there, you’ve got business cards, or there was a survey you didn’t follow up.
Phyllis Sisenwine [23:56]
Absolutely, it happens. I had a client. He had a book. He sold his book. He never followed up with the people that bought his book. Yeah, they’re in the captive audience. He did. I said you didn’t get the people that bought your book, yeah? Like, I’m no longer coaching.
Steve Fretzin [24:10]
It’s like, well, they bought my book. That’s enough, right? No,
Phyllis Sisenwine [24:12]
but I really before you go during and after, and I had clients lawyers that have traveled around the country. They go, get off the plane, give a speech and leave. No, you go early. You build a relationship with the audience. You stay out with them, get to know each other. You can’t just show up and speak and leave.
Steve Fretzin [24:30]
So there’s, yeah, that’s awesome. And then like, let’s say we’re going for the lowest hanging fruit. And I believe that is in the clients who believe you are the bee’s knees, that you are the best thing since sliced bread, and they love you. I think getting having those relationships with clients, and then lawyers sort of expect or hope. Hope is the worst word that they’re going to get referrals or get referred to other GCS, other CEOs, from those happy clients the case are not the case. Sometimes. Times the case, you
Phyllis Sisenwine [25:00]
have to take action. You can’t. You know what happened one of my clients, I said, Why don’t you ask some of your best clients to give you referrals? Oh, they think I’m so busy. I asked him. He said, Oh, you’re too busy. People think too busy to get referrals. That surprised me, but it happens often, even to me. Phyllis, I think you’re too busy to give you a referral. No, I have room for more clients, but no, they think you’re so busy that they often won’t even think about referring to you. Yeah, I so you have to be open to it and say, I’d love to meet more people just you’re one of my ideal clients. I’d love to meet more people just like you.
Steve Fretzin [25:33]
Yeah. And I think it’s a bit of a myth that they’re thinking, you know, not just the busy part, but also that we’re taking something from the client, or we’re asking for something we don’t deserve, or that we shouldn’t ask for, that we’re going like, hey, they’re already giving us the work now I’m asking for more. Like, why that does? And the misnomer is that we’re doing that, but in reality, they’re going to feel like a hero if they can refer you to other people that are going to have the same quality and relationship and trust that they have they and that feels good like when I give a good referral to someone like a great landscaper or a great which doesn’t exist in my world, or a great handyman, or whatever it might be, like, I know they’re going to come back to me and say, that was awesome. Thank you. This guy was on time, fairly priced, like, really good. So there’s some trash there, sure.
Phyllis Sisenwine [26:21]
Years ago, I wrote a book, I interviewed that 52 successful lawyers. What was their one tip of the and they’re one of the tips was, make the ask. Make the ask. A lot of people don’t ask, yeah. Recently, I had a car repair, and I asked if I they could give me a little better break, because it wasn’t as good as I expected. I figured I had nothing to lose. And sure enough, they knocked off $50 I asked. I even said, you know, it doesn’t hurt to ask, what for any reason, and especially for business. Always ask because, you know, why not?
Steve Fretzin [26:53]
It doesn’t hurt. I just bought some very expensive progressive lens sunglasses, and the number I saw on the screen was blew my mind. Like I couldn’t believe that how much they were. And, to your point, just said, Hey, this, that’s a lot. Like, I don’t want to have to go to Costco help me out here they did, and that’s still high. But, you know, at least you feel like
Phyllis Sisenwine [27:11]
hard to ask. Same thing with business development. You know, Do you have anybody that you think I would be a good fit? Anybody you want to refer to me and I that’s important to always be able to ask, I
Steve Fretzin [27:21]
think, but it’s, I think it comes down to, and you just shared some language, I think it comes down sometimes to getting some comfortable language that allows it to happen in a natural way without it feeling salesy, because that’s gonna We’re going back to the very beginning of our chat today about lawyers don’t want to feel salesy, so you just shared some language. What are some additional ways to get that referral without being salesy?
Phyllis Sisenwine [27:44]
Is there any way that I can be helpful? Yeah, working with you, you’re you’re a great client. I’d love to work with more clients just like you. If you have anyone you want to refer to, me. Love to have a conversation with them. Yeah? And that’s it. Is there anyone you know that I can be helpful to? Yeah, okay, and now have an ebook. You know, I was a non techie for a long time. I was afraid of the internet. Oh, my God, I’m not doing any zoom speeches, only in person. I have a lot of energy. I love to meet people in person. But then covid hit, and everything changed, and I had to become a techie. And now I have an ebook, which I sent to people, yeah, and I were 3000 followers, which is nothing like yours, but for me, it’s a lot for LinkedIn all because I embraced social media because I had no choice. So you kind of go with the flow and you do what needs to be done. So was that
Steve Fretzin [28:28]
kind of your fail forward moment, though, like the technology and the fear of technology and then getting through it? Okay?
Phyllis Sisenwine [28:34]
Absolutely. I was an in person speaker for many, many years. I was even, even a member of the National Speakers Association. I did so much speaking, and I loved it, and then covid hit, and it’s like, I’m not a techie and I’m not going to do zoom. I’m an in person, high energy speaker, and I don’t I shied away from the internet. I mean, I did emails and, you know, but I wasn’t going to do it. And then I thought, You know what I’ve got to get with this program. And I started to do zoom presentations for law firms and bar associations. I have an ebook. I have a QR code, which I didn’t even know what one was, and I became a techie. And I have that, you know, as I said, over 3000 followers on LinkedIn. I post videos there, and now I’m the Zoom queen. What can I tell you?
Steve Fretzin [29:17]
Yeah, well, I mean, we’re going through, like, a whole range of topics, from the importance of time management, organization through networking, best practices, client introductions, speaking. I mean, there’s all this great stuff that’s going on, and so each lawyer needs to individually Think about who their people are, where those people are. How am I going to best approach those people, what’s the low hanging fruit? And then take action, right? And have a plan that’s going to do that for you. And I would say, I mean, let me ask you this question, out of 100 lawyers, how many have a tactical written plan?
Phyllis Sisenwine [29:54]
Probably a low percentage. And even if they do have it, they don’t follow it, it’s. Yeah, never forget this. Years ago, I went to a law firm, and they had spent 1000s and 1000s of dollars on a partner’s retreat, a whole weekend away, lot of money, and had all these speakers come in. And I went to the firm, and I said, Where’s their marketing plan from that weekend? It was in a binder on their bookshelf. Yeah, that’s where their marketing plan was in a binder. I said, take it down, and let’s look at it step by step. We started to do some of the things that they learned. Yeah, they were away for an entire weekend, that it was all in a binder, but they didn’t take action. Yeah, spoke to a prospect, actually a prospective client, on Friday morning, and he said, I have a business plan, but I haven’t really looked at it lately, and that’s what coaching is. What do you want to accomplish? Let’s do it together. I’ll give you support. I’ll give you accountability, and it make and it happens a lone ranger that doesn’t make it work, yeah, and
Steve Fretzin [30:47]
let’s wrap up. We’ve got just 30 seconds left for, you know, just why coaching is so important. And again, you know, I’m a coach, you’re a coach. We’re both helping lawyers, and we both have a mindset of abundance. I mean, nobody can argue that I’ve had, you know, as many lawyer coaches on this show is that I can it’s not about me, it’s about you, the lawyer, finding the best fit and getting to where you want to be to live your best lawyer life. So the best part of coaching, in your opinion, you know, self serving, yes, but okay, also important for people to know, I
Phyllis Sisenwine [31:17]
would say you have a strategy session. I strategize with you, we can all think to ourselves, but if you have a buddy to discuss it with. So we come up with a strategy and accountability. Accountability next week or the week after, they’re going to do it. Sometimes the morning of our session, they’ll make the calls that they said they were going to make. Accountability is important for most people, and having a strategy and you can’t do it alone. You need a buddy.
Steve Fretzin [31:43]
And that’s thanks a village. Back to my client who wrote the great post about her son. Shout out to people that are posting on LinkedIn and you know, going to network events and speaking in the for the first time to just get it, get through it amazing. Let’s take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, we’ve got the law her podcast. There’s one you should be on if you haven’t been on with Sonia Palmer, she’s amazing. We’ve got pimcon coming up. I’ll be up on stage with some amazing professionals talking about the power of podcasting and how incredible it is to build a business and brand. And so check that out, pimcon.org, and of course, legal verse. There’s a place to go if you’re looking for international information. You want to network internationally with attorneys that are hungry to grow just like you and Phyllis, people want to check you out. They’re looking for a coach. They heard you. They go, Wow, that sounds amazing. What are the best ways for them to reach you?
Phyllis Sisenwine [32:29]
Well, my website is the lawyers coach.com and I’m on LinkedIn, Phyllis system, line, P, h, y, L, L, i s, s, I s, e, n, w, I N, E. Love to hear from any of your listeners, and happy to give anybody a consultation for sure.
Steve Fretzin [32:44]
Yeah, one of the beauty, I think it was Janet Falk I had on, but she was telling me she’s getting a lot of international, like, people reaching out to her international and saying, hey, they heard the show and they loved what she had to say about PR and marketing. And I’m like, Okay, it’s just like, every day I hear more about how far this shows reaches. So I really do hope that you get some good movement from it, because you just took 30 minutes to share a tremendous amount of wisdom and knowledge with people that are really hungry for they’re not listening to the show for, you know, maybe for their health. But really it’s to really be that lawyer right to the heart of it and impress everybody, and most importantly, they take care of themselves and live the best lawyer life. So thank you, Phyllis, thank you everybody for hanging out with us for 30 minutes. Keep checking out the show twice a week. Also be that lawyer the book, 101 top Rainmaker, secrets to growing a successful law practice on Amazon. All right, everybody, take care. Be safe, be well, and we will talk again soon.
Narrator [33:38]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.